quote:

I just feel like a horrible person and that I don't come across as respectful/polite when I really do mean to.

Hi Catalyst,

I could relate to the part I quoted above. Sometimes I just have this urge to kind of pick at my T, or tease her (the sort of teasing which has a mild sting to it, not very nice.) I think it's an attempt to even the power imbalance. And I feel like there must be a fine line in there somewhere. As in a certain amount of that kind of levity feels okay and appropriate to our relationship, but once or twice I think I pushed some nearly imperceptible boundary of okay-ness and annoyed her. Felt *terrible* about this for days, weeks, and still, whenever I think about it.

The relationship can feel like such a delicate balancing act at times. Well, so does all of existence, for that matter.

I suppose this doesn't help you all that much and maybe it is only indirectly related to what you are sharing here, but it's the best I've got. . . just wanted to comment to say that I can relate a little, in case feeling alone in this was a trouble to you.

"Acknowledging I appreciate/like something is to give someone power to hurt or manipulate me with it."

Those very words could have come out of my mouth. I always think if you tell someone you like something...somehow that gives them power over you.

My therapist is constantly reminding me that I need to remember who HE is based on my experiences WITH him and not based on the experiences of my past. That is a constant challenge.

I truly understand what you are saying. I hope things become easier for you. Thinking of you.

T.

Cat, I definitely say things that come out differently than how I intended them! I'll never forget the first big one with T - it was at the end of just our 3rd or 4th session, and I was feeling sheer panic at how attached I was to him already, and as I was standing up to go, I remember just wringing my hands together and mumbling something about how I was afraid I would become attached to him, and that I didn't want to be. And he seemed startled and said, "Well, I've had many successes here." I was like what the heck does that mean??? And how does it fit with what I just said??? But I also thought oh crap, he thinks I've insulted him!! That he can't help me!!!

I was speechless but tried to mumble something relevant, and shook his hand and left quickly.
Later I emailed him and said that I never meant to imply he'd not had plenty of successes, and that I knew I could be another one of them. I said I had no idea what he meant - or how my comment must have come across, but that I had no doubts as to his being able to help me.

I've put my foot in my mouth a number of times, and darn if he doesn't notice every one!!!

But he knows I mean well (now...), and I'm sure your Ts do, too. They care about you and see through the words to the meaning inside them.

Hugs to you,
Starry

Hi Cat,
I feel like the worst ever. I just got back from my appt. a few hours ago...I wish we could just correspond by writing pen and paper back and forth...seems like it would be more effective at times. I repeated something back to her some months back "word for word" that she had said early on in counseling about helping me, and she didn't say anything but looked at me like "duh"...like "ok any day you'd like to get started is fine with me." I write out how appreciative I am between sessions...think I'll mail it!

You are soooo not a horrible person...just hurt like everyone here. I am looking to figure out how to do respectful/polite...mainly to my T. I must seem really "young" to her.

You just aren't seeing what a great person you really are but I'm quite sure your T's do.

Hi Cat... I'm mean to my T too and he does not deserve it at all. A lot of it is transference. I push him away because of what happened with oldT. I think I'm making myself unlikable because with oldT I did everything I could for him to care about me and when he realized how much he felt towards me he abandoned me. So right now it feels safer to have T not like me and so I can be mean. Lately, I have accused him of lying to me and of being unempathic (the usual thing I tell him) and how he refuses to relate to me on an emotional level.

So I really do get that you feel like you may be mean but you are not. You are doing what you are supposed to do in therapy. Your T's are both experienced and they understand this.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Hugs
TN

Yeah... I can't count how many times I have walked away thinking, "dang it, I am such a jerk!" When it came time for old eq T to go, I poured out a million thank yous. She read my thank you letter, then looked at me and said, she was grateful for what I wrote, but even before she knew what I was specifically glad for with her, she was grateful about the time with me, "especially the hard parts." Then she talked of the times where I thought I was being a jerk... I still don't really get it... But she told me she already knew I cared and was deeply glad for her. She saw me work so hard, taking what steps I could... and dang... I am very slow to risk or be volunerable. It took me 2 years just to hug a horse with a T there!

I really actually didn't feel ok enough to take the "risk" of thanking her as deeply as I did, until she was about to move away... Somehow, it didn't seem so scary then. She couldn't hurt me with it, not any more than I was already hurting... she would be in another state...

I think your T's know you enough to know you do deeply respect them - that's why you keep going back to them, trying when you can, and doing what you can, even when it is so vulnerable feeling and scary that you push them away. I think they rather have the real you, the raw you, your flaws and all, to whatever degree you can and do share with them, even when it feels like you are being "mean."

You deserve much respect yourself.

Thank you for all the wonderful replies.

I ended up calling T about something else and talking helped. She told me she did get my apology message yesterday. After session I felt so anxious I had to call to apologize. A lot of it was she had said one of the sweetest things to me at the start of last session and I did a deer in headlights because I'm so wrapped up in my stuff right now.

She said she thought everything was okay; that on her end she felt our connection was good, we worked well, I was open and then added that I am respectful, etc. More reassurance than normal for her. She also said she knows I'm going through a period of extreme self-loathing right now (that a different part of me is "driving" right now she said) and said this feeling comes up then. That helped calm me.

I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling like a jerk - even though it's a sucky thing to feel. Right now I also feel like I need too much with just fuels the I'm a jerk fire.


((HIC)) Your reply did help very much, thank you! I don't have an urge to pick on my T sometimes - not pick on her but I find stuff wrong with what she's doing. We've worked through that a lot and sometimes I am able to say 'I feel like I want to pick a fight with you'. Sometimes I can't though but we have a strategy to work through the times when I'm bringing up a legitimate concern but move the focus from exploring the concern to accusing my T of things. I'm sorry you feel like you've really pushed a boundary with your T sometimes (how do you tell when that happens?). I feel bad for weeks/months too about all kinds of random stuff.


((TAS)) I'm sorry you can relate to feeling vulnerable in sharing your likes/loves. My T says the same thing about the experiences with her being so different from what I'm used to that it IS confusing/frustrating/scary. Glad your too does too.


((Starrynights)) Aw, I can see how what happened in your 3rd/4th session would kind of freak you out. Your T dealt with it in sorta the same way my T has dealt with things like that in the past. At least you were subtle LOL I told my T to her face for months when I started how useless not only she was, but therapy too. How did you rT address or write back to your e-mail? I really hope my Ts know I mean well too. They seem to say so, but I just don't trust it sometimes.


((hopeful)) Aw, I'm sorry you feel like the worst ever! When you write out how appreciative you are during session where/why do you do that? It may be a good idea to mail your T My T does the silent treatment too (actually, so do I at work) it has purpose sometimes but it does make people feel super uncomfortable sometimes. I'm sorry your T does that too! Ugh!


((TN)) I think a LOT of mine is transference/attachment too. Plus I know the trauma with OldT is a big part of that for you. I understand what you're saying about having it be okay for T not to like you so that you can be mean - that is probably why it is so hard when he's not mean. I tell my Ts the same things over and over too Thanks for reassuring me that I'm supposed to be doing this stuff, I just wish it was easier.


((JD)) Aw, that sounds like such an amazing exchange with your OldEQT. I really hope my Ts can feel my thank you - they've never said so. I'm assuming because that's not true? I may have to ask them... but knowing my Ts and their boundaries (at least T1) I'll get the 'it doesn't matter how I feel' wall. Maybe, maybe not! When I thanked one of my Ts the first year I was with her she was teary and sweet and moved. I thanked T1 recently and... she was like talking to my cat. It's not that I NEED an emotional reaction but I would at least like the message back of 'I hear you appreciating me!'. I'm so glad your T was able to be confirming that is very heartwarming. Thank you for your last paragraph, that really spoke to me.


thanks ladies, I feel a bit better. I hate that I'm having this shame storm right now.

I have been mean to my T many times, have had a couple of arguments, one so big we were both speaking loudly at each others and she showed me the door (it was the end of the session) very angrily. I have yelled at her, and once stormed out of the room telling her to F@#* off. She called me on my cell and asked me to come back and finish the session; I had only lasted 5 minutes in session before she made me so angry I left. Therapy is a second career for her, so when I was looking her up on the internet I found out what she used to do for a living. I was shocked and sad because when I discovered what she was. I am over it now, but originally I felt she was stopping me from talking about how I disliked certain advertising, and how the products were pushed in stores. She would stop me or dismiss my comments. It turns out her previous job was advertising this product. I wanted to discuss how I felt and she became defensive, so I let her have it. I tore her head of verbally. I felt very bad out that outburst and I apologized at my next session. She told me I was only saying what I was thinking. True, but I could have brought up my concern in a nicer way. I talked to a friend and she said don't worry; they are being paid a lot of money to do what they do. True, but I feel I can behave better and I have improved.

Therapists must understand they are poking around in mine fields and that they will step on a few land mines, so they should be able to handle emotional outburst from a client. It is better to be upfront and honest rather than keeping your feelings inside. By the way my shrink and I have a good relationship right now.

quote:

I'm sorry you feel like you've really pushed a boundary with your T sometimes (how do you tell when that happens?)

Well, sometimes the teasing I do is very subtle, gentle, and affectionate. It makes her genuinely laugh and brings something more of lightness and ease into the atmosphere of the room.

Occasionally I'm slightly more vinegary. Then she'll usually roll her eyes and make a face, but I don't feel any change in the room or in T. I think in those cases I've been within the acceptable bounds of "okay" but still past what she finds amusing.

And it's happened. . . just once or twice that I've let my joking cross a line into critical or insulting. I could tell it was too much because she tensed up a bit, was visibly irritated, and I could feel her withdrawing from me a little. It felt like the intangible connection we have was temporarily broken. These are the occasions that I've felt terrible about for weeks/months.

I really don't intend to be mean to T, although as I've admitted that instinct is sometimes there. Also sometimes I don't know where the line is until I hit it.

Sigh.

quote:

I would like to be able to walk away from session feeling like I was also respectful to them. I think I'm coming out of my avoidant attachment issues, slowly but surely, and it's bringing up a lot of guilt for not coming across as appreciative as I really am.

I can relate Cat... and this part really stood out to me because I feel the same way. I'm not outwardly mean to my T or NT, but sometimes I feel rather like a smart @$$, and then I feel guilty afterward. I actually called my T once after I left to apologize for being such a b*ch to her. When I saw her next she sad that I need not apologize, therapy isn't the place for me to be worrying about her. (Didn't make me feel any better!)

I try to, at least every few months (lately it's been once a month) make a conscious effort to start a session thinking T for being so steady and caring. She always tells me I don't need to tell her that, she knows I appreciate and respect her, but it makes ME feel better verbalizing it once in a while. I think that Ts get used to the attitudes we bring, because they ARE our protective armor - and it's all the more scary when that armor gets left in the car, piece by piece, as we walk into the therapy room, which makes us all the more snippy and b*chy. There must be something in training that helps Ts learn how to handle this?

You aren't a horrible person at all, and neither of your Ts see you that way, I know it. If it makes you feel any better, sometimes I'll preface what I am about to say with "this might come out wrong, but I don't mean it to be men or disrespectful" and then spit out whatever it is. Dunno if that helps?

(((Cat)))

I saw my T this afternoon. She asked what I felt like I did that was wrong; I said I didn't know I just felt really bad. My T does the unconditional positive regard stuff very well.

She pushed me (brought up something I'm trying to avoid ever speaking of again) today so I'm sort of recovering. I didn't feel mean today at least.

((HIC)) Ah, I tease like that too. I think some of the things I say to my T she doesn't understand or thinks are weird or is confused. I often wonder how many 'FUs' I've managed to make her say under her breath on my way out the door. It is hard to know where the line is. My T said today while I talked to her about feeling like I was mean that I really don't know what normal is. Heh I feel unsocialized like a feral animal sometimes...


((R2G)) I'm sorry you feel the same way! I definitely feel like a smartass - there are times I openly roll my eyes or tell my Ts a suggestion is hokey (they've GOT to know some of the stuff they suggest sounds absolutely ridiculous even if it works - sometimes they admit it!). I call my T to apologize for being a jerk too - and, this time, just like every other time she says no need to apologize/I did nothing wrong. I'm glad you try consciously to thank your T that's a good idea - I think I thank my T like when I leave and stuff but not thank you for _______. My T sets stuff out for me before I get there so I try to thank her for that occasionally (because every day would be a bit weird, I think - she's started doing something new so I have thanked her for that recently). I think you're right about Ts getting used to what we're bringing there are not taking stuff personally... we tend to make it personal I guess because of our histories. I know though, that my T worries about things she says sometimes. In the next session she will say last time I said _____ and was worried maybe you thought/felt ________. It's not the same though because I don't think she feels shame it's just her doing her job - just like with my job I'd worry if I said something confusing, etc. I wish I had my Ts boundaries (you know the other day she said I have "good boundaries" - I LOL'ed on the inside). This does help, thank you so much - I don't think of predicating I always wait until the dumb/mean has passed my lips to apologize.

Thanks so much for the support, ladies.

I wonder how much of this is shame versus guilt or if it's both? Naturally it's related to my pattern of relating to people in general so I'm not sure if I'm ACTUALLY mean to people in general or if I just feel guilt in my interactions (or both??).

quote:

I definitely feel like a smartass - there are times I openly roll my eyes or tell my Ts a suggestion is hokey (they've GOT to know some of the stuff they suggest sounds absolutely ridiculous even if it works - sometimes they admit it!).

I do the same thing! My T tells me I'm entering adolescence when that happens, which in my mind is much better than being in the toddler phase!

I think I quit/am quitting.

I feel like... Too horrible to work with these people. I am mean, abrasive, and taxing. For the past two weeks I've put of session contacted one of them almost everyday.

I'm not mad, I know they can help... I know they are willing to help in whatever way suits their boundaries. I just can't anymore. What are you supposed to do when every interaction with your T makes you feel like the worst person on earth?

Every move closer or toward what I assume will be comfort makes me feel that much more disgusted with myself. Each step back makes me feel I'm not doing good enough or trying hard enough. I don't know what I need so I don't know how to fix it or what tools are the right ones

(((((Cat)))))

I'm sorry that things are so difficult. I feel the same way often. I am thinking of you

(((cogs))) thank you my dear. I know you feel the same way often and I'm so sorry It's tough.

What I hate the most is that I feel really intensely one thing... and it moves through and I feel another. It's relieving... but also stressful.

I'm trying not to contact them the rest of the week though I'm still solidly going to try to continue. T1 called to check in last night and T2 wrote me back. Both helped sort of make me solid for the weekend but... too triggering to do much else contact-wise.

T2 suggests back to DBT skills until I can manage myself better. Bleh.

Thanks again cogs! I feel a lot less alone.

Cat don't quit.
T's are not expecting you to be appreciative, they are there to help you recover and heal from the negative experiences and feelings you have. Have you told your T that you feel horrible every time you see him/her? The feelings you have probably mean your T is making progress with you. I have stuffed so many feelings that when some of them are released they explode out of me like a grenade that has had the pin pulled. I showed my T a picture of a fantasy dragon I have. I love dragons. The dragon is demonic looking and is breathing a horrible looking fire. I told her this is what is inside me and that perhaps sleeping dragons should be left asleep. Of course she did not let the dragon sleep, and she has been singed more than a few times, but she has endured the flames and I am better for it. Don't feel horrible because you are mean to your T, best to get the feeling out and let your T help you to understand why the angry feeling exist.

quote:

Originally posted by catalyst:
I think I quit/am quitting.

What are you supposed to do when every interaction with your T makes you feel like the worst person on earth?
(

Hi Snape,

What a lovely response, thank you! I'm trying not to quit I just feel VERY tempted A LOT. Unfortunately, I never let myself. I trigger and crash very quickly unfortunately but i'm not usually outwardly reactive (quitting/wanting to quit) but sometimes I am.

I love what you had to say about dragons - I'm sorry you feel so bad on the inside - I love dragons too and when I draw they are often the antagonists. I'm glad your T has been persistent, mine are also - not with pushing but when they see their chances they take them.

My Ts do say they see a lot of progress. And... ugh my goodness I tell them ALL THE TIME how I feel about being there, about calling or writing; I actually don't think there is much in life I do that I don't feel bad about sometimes. They let me take all kinds of things out on them it's just that I never believe the progress is good, ya know? What I REALLY can't wait to get out of my therapy is a realistic view of myself - I hope I'm not really as awful as I feel I am.

sounds like you are doing great work too, Snape.

You are not awful, on the contrary you are a kind and good person, the service you provide on this site and your helpful posts are proof.