((((Cogs)))) keep working at it. When this happens in the future perhaps add on to the statement that it would be nice with "would you, please?" I think he's going to hold out until it is directly asked for. My T has me do this, and after a while now will just ask "do you want ____" and I still affirm with a yes. It's like an implicit boundary building thing I think. Nobody touches me unless invited to do so and if I indicate it is acceptable. I think you guys are getting there!!

(((cogs))) I'm sorry things are so difficult and painful now, it sounds like you're really dealing with a lot. I agree, keep trying and building on it. I hope things start feeling better soon

Cogs... I think you are doing great and making progress on this very difficult topic. I totally understand the feeling of peeling your skin off while you discuss the topic.

I think when your T said what he did about this would be a time when a shoulder touch would be welcome... well next time you could say... yes now would be a really good moment to do that.

My T is not really big on touch but we have always shook hands and after I had been seeing him awhile he would pat my shoulder or upper arm as I was leaving. Sometimes it can be awkward because I don't know if he will do it or not and sometimes he reaches for my arm and I have already moved away and he "misses" LOL. I love him for it though and it does help.

Keep exploring this and working through it. It will get easier and more natural as time passes. I give you a lot of credit for doing this at all.

Hugs
TN

You know, after reading these posts, I feel really bad. I was recently in a session and feeling all anxiety-provoked and dissociating left and right during EMDR...when my T mentions out of no where..."Do you want me to hold your hand?" Instead of taking this to heart, I got defensive and said (okay, squawked) "I'm not a baby!" And very calmly he replied, "I'm not saying you're a baby...it's just a way to stay connected with the here and now."

Hope I didn't offend him. He'll probably never ask me that again...

LJB

I agree that communication is key. We had a number of touch conversations before I asked to hold T's hand. I had also given him a short article on the power of holding a hand. The first time I had asked him was when I was going back into the hospital for a procedure that was frightening for me. He asked me what would I need to get through it with less fear. I asked if I could hold his hand so that I could take that experience into the OR with me. He thought for a moment then moved his chair in to offer his hand to me.

It was both a powerfully connecting moment and very scary for me. I realize that I am very afraid of being near my T. I did not have these fears of oldT and I believe some of what happened with him has given me a new fear of closeness and nearness. This is something I need to bring to his attention and that we need to work on.

After the both times we held hands we discussed it. How I felt, what it meant to me and how it helped or not. It was not as difficult as I thought and I could see and explain the therapeutic benefits to me clearly which I think made my T's decision to grant the extra touch easier. My T is thoughtful and also has no problem in saying "no" when he thinks that is best for me. I was very afraid to ask for his hand and frankly pretty surprised that he was so willing. It meant a lot to me and remains one of the most powerful moments we have shared. I hope in the future that we can have this experience again and that I can overcome my fear of being near him for any reason.

Monte, I love hearing about how your T works with you and how he thinks. You have done such great work with him lately.

TN

LJB,
You could ask him, you don't have to wait for him to ask. You'll know he'll say yes since he offered.

Cogs,
I know that it feels close to impossible to ask for what you need but I don't think it is obvious. Our emotions are so overwhelming and strong that it feels like our Ts must know how we feel and what we want. But they don't unless we tell them. It is not wrong to ask for what we need nor is it forced or invalid if the person then does what we want. It is an act of love to respond to someone's need. I see you in so much pain waiting for someone to see what you need and provide it. But it only works that way for infants. As adults we need to be able to communicate our needs. Your T is a safe place in which to learn this difficult task.

This is a difficult thread for me to read because even if I asked (come to think of it I have) the answer is no to anything but a handshake. So it is hard to see people not only being offered something I cannot have (my choice to stay with my T though knowing how he works) but not getting it because they will not speak. Just ask. There is a good chance you will experience the joy of having an expressed need met and despite how it feels a no won't kill you. If you never ask then the answer is ALWAYS no.

Thank you all for your thoughts. I've been away from the computer since I posted because I was driving and I am surprised by what you said about asking for him to touch me at that moment. It honestly didn't occur to me to say please do. At the time I thought he was discussing it before he did it and then as the session progressed I thought he was just checking out what I thought and he didn't have any intention of touching me. So reading your replies has been eye-opening.

LJB, I agree with AG and you don't have to wait for him to ask again, when you are ready you can ask him. I can imagine having that kind of defensive reaction to my T for many years. I have only recently (in therapy time) started asking him about the possibility of touch.

Cat, I will try and remember in the future that he might be waiting for me to ask right now explicitly.

AH, thank you for the hug. Things are difficult right now and when I start to think negatively it snowballs until I feel hopeless.

TN, I love the story of your T holding your hand before your surgery. It shows how caring he is and how is willing to adapt and change during your therapy. I can totally relate to feeling awkward and not being sure what he is going to do, handshake, pat on the arm. I guess it is better to laugh at the awkwardness.

Monte, I appreciate you sharing about your T because I agree sometimes they sound very similar. It is inspiring to me that you have been able to work with your T for years and continue to improve on your relationship with him.

((AG)) I can imagine these touch discussions are always difficult to read particularly if you think that what I want is there just waiting for me to ask (which I am not sure I believe). I often think my T is just trying to avoid saying no and I've wished he would be clear about it so I could start dealing with the no. You have often talked about your disappointment over the issue of touch with your T but at the same time it has been absolutely clear that even without touch your T has been completely accepting of your feelings and caring in his discussion's with you. Hearing about your discussions with your T around touch have also been inspiring and part of why I have started working on asking because you are right I can survive him saying no. After reading your description of me wanting someone to know and do what I need it won't surprise you to find that I struggle quite a bit with the feeling that if someone does something I ask then it isn't as valid (or something like that) as something they do spontaneously. Sometimes I think I want someone to see what I need because I can't rigure out what it is, like their response to my feelings tells me what is the right things to want. (when I write it that way I realize why I always feel like I should be happy with what someone gives me, interesting.)

Thank you again for the thought provoking comments

Cogs,
Thanks for being so gracious. And you are right, my T does handle those conversations really well and I am very grateful for what I have with him. And I really do understand that while I do not have touch, there is so much I do have. I have a feeling this probably hit me so hard as I am in the home stretch of a five week break and really missing my T. And one of the hard things about seeing him again after so long is that I really want to hug him and hear about his vacation and neither will happen. So I am sorry if some of that spilled over. I do understand that you do not really know what your T will do until you ask and therefore its pretty scary stuff.

I have done a LOT of work around the whole issue of asking for what I need. One of the things I learned about myself was that I did not express a need, unless I was utterly certain the answer would be yes. So I didn't express needs all that often. I also really struggled with the feeling that if I had to ask it wasn't valid or didn't count. That if I had to ask, then the person was forced into it and doing it against their will. I think this dates back to early childhood when our caregiver was so attuned that they would notice our needs without our expressing them (we weren't capable yet). I think if we haven't had that, part of our longing to be loved and feel like we are worthy includes the desire to have someone understand our needs so that we do not have to risk asking (and possibly getting in trouble or scorned or mocked for what we ask). Safer to wait. But the truth is that part of the maturation process is learning to identify and express our needs. And we cannot force someone to do something they don't want to do. So as an adult, we take responsibility to express our needs because they are ours and we know them best. And when we ask for what we need, someone can chose to provide it or not do it. But when they do provide it, that is an act of love and care and attention. And if they don't, it's not really about us, it's about them.

I think its good that you're thinking through these feelings and how you feel about your needs and making them known. I think its an area in which most of us really struggle, I know I did.

AG

Cogs I completely identify with your feeling that if you have to ask for someone to meet your needs then when they do it doesn't really count because they didn't just do it spontaneously. This is something I'm really working on in couples conseling. I will often say something to DH and if he doesn't take the hint about what I want then I assume all sorts of bad stuff and have a whole conversation in my head with myself about how I'm no good and not worth anything. I find it really tough to own asking clearly for what I want. Shouldn't he be able to read my mind wasn't that part of the marriage vows?

Jillann

oh and I just also thought about the related fear. If I express my needs then DH may start expressing more of his. And I may not want to meet them but I am too afraid to say no to him.

This is a big hole for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Jillann:
Cogs I completely identify with your feeling that if you have to ask for someone to meet your needs then when they do it doesn't really count because they didn't just do it spontaneously. This is something I'm really working on in couples conseling. I will often say something to DH and if he doesn't take the hint about what I want then I assume all sorts of bad stuff and have a whole conversation in my head with myself about how I'm no good and not worth anything. I find it really tough to own asking clearly for what I want. Shouldn't he be able to read my mind wasn't that part of the marriage vows?

Jillann

Yes! Yes! Yes! Exactly how I feel.

It is very hard to ask for what you need. A few weeks ago when T forgot about our session and asked if I wanted to wait I said yes because it was something that I needed! I was so upset though and didn't speak in that session. So by the next session I had calmed down and I actually apologized for having him come in for our session. That was an interesting session to say the least.

This week is actually a couples session and it is because I tried to ask for something I needed from DH and he didn't understand and I got so aggravated and upset that everything just blew up. My T actually shakes my DH hand before and after sessions but I have never had that. I want to shake his hand but I can't bring myself to ask. Maybe tomorrow when he shakes DH hand I can just reach mine out at the same time so there won't be any awkwardness.

I think you are so brave to bring up touch already with your T. Like the others have suggested you may just have to ask directly for the touch. That is difficult though! Much encouragement from here...You CAN do it!

Sorry for your loss, inc.

for the last few days I've had terrible pain in my knee and hip. I've had bouts of knee pain in the past and know I've got arthritic knees but this is the first time my hip hurts. I have been overwhelmed by the physical pain and have my next session tonight and I'm anxious about it.

Wish me luck

It was awful. I just cried the whole. Every time I tried to speak about anything at all I would start sobbing too hard to speak. He asked me to speak thru the crying but I can't.

Besides not asking him if he would touch my shoulder or if I had asked last session if he would have touched me, I also couldn't ask him a perfectly reasonable request that would help me have phone sessions for the next couple of weeks while I am on vacation. I was overwhelmed with fear of asking if he would call me because I don't want my family to see that I called him and spoke for an hour on the bill. I would offer to pay any charges he has but if he made the call it wouldn't show up on my bill. Instead I sat in silence and he thinks I don't want to have phone sessions while I'm on vacation.

I don't want to go back. I am doomed to be alone with my pain.

Hi Cogs... I am so sorry for your knee and hip pain. I know that pain because I suffer with a really bad hip and I don't like to take meds every day because they are not so good for you. But some days I have to take something because the pain just wears me out and I have to climb a very long steep flight of stairs to go see my T. Some days I'm so scared and anxious about climbing those stairs it takes me 15-20 minutes to calm down enough to talk to him.

It is sad that you couldn't tell your T that you really wanted to do those phone sessions. Would it be possible for you to obtain a cheap cell phone, like a Tracphone and buy yourself some minutes to use just for this purpose? You can email your T and let him know that you will have the ability to call him for a session or two. I know it's difficult to be out of contact for a long time. When I was in Italy for 3 weeks I had a cheap cell phone to use by buying myself minutes as I needed them. It worked really well and I remember talking to T one Sunday night and he helped me so much. We did not have actual sessions but a few short conversations that kept me regulated while being away.

Do you know why you couldn't talk to T and ended up sitting in silence. Was there something in particular that happened to shut you down so completely??

I hope you can work things out with T before you leave. Let us know.

TN

Cogs, I wonder if you shared more than you know in this session. Just reading what you wrote about this made me really feel for you, and for the huge grief of being alone, in intense pain, unable to articulate or be heard in what you need at the times when you most need it. I imagine that grief has deep roots in the past, and I wonder if this is part of what you are sharing with your T in that crying, which is so powerfully articulate in itself. I think the feeling of being alone is central to this experience, and yet I can't help but wonder if your T might really be there with you, quietly witnessing, feeling, caring for you as you feel your way through this.

Thank you for your responses. I was so busy at work I didn't get anytime on the computer and I was run off my feet. It is tiring being that busy but it does keep me from obsessing about therapy and my T. I do have two more sessions before my vacation. Tomorrow and Monday afternoon. So I do have another chance to discuss a phone session with him.

TN, I am sorry that you have chronic hip pain. I can certainly understand using pain killers because the pain is constant and so exhausting. My T has a basement office so I have a lone narrow staircase to get to therapy as well. Unfortunately I am headed up north to a cottage and there is no cell phone service there (probably unheard of in the US but in Canada it happens). If I had cell service I could use my own cell phone because I get the bill. Afterwards I realized I could buy a pre-paid phone card but at the moment in my session I couldn't think of anything but my inability to ask him the question. I'm not sure why I shut down so completely. I just kept crying everytime I opened my mouth.

Monte, as I said I can talk to him again if I find a way to break through my fear. I am going to try and remember to write things when I can't talk because of the crying. I'm not sure if I can talk while I'm crying. I think I will just regress to some kind of awful wailing or inarticulate whiny sound. I wish I could stop crying so much.

Jones, I think you are right that my T knows how alone I feel and how painful it is for me. I get stuck in my grief and I'm afraid I always will. I don't know how to move through it. Also when I'm sitting there I don't feel my T even though later when I think about the session or listen to the recording or read his emails to me I feel like he cares but then I wonder if I just want to believe he cares so I make it up when I'm not with him. I sent him an email after my session telling him I couldn't ask him for help with the telephone session and he responded this morning but I still haven't read his response. I don't know if I'm afraid his response will be upsetting or if I'm afraid it will be caring.