I would hazzard a guess that loveable + like + care about = "I love you" in therapist speak, since it's probably really dangerous to come out and say those words with the variety of connotations they can have. I bet even if they "know" a client won't take it the wrong way, most are pretty cautious, like my T's "you are highly favored" that we discussed before. I think it means he REALLY likes me, but it certainly leaves you guessing when they have such a round-about way of saying it. I was hearing it as "God loves you...me, not so much!" Anyway, I hope that can give you some comfort around that exchange. ((((LG))))

Hi LG,

Ouch...yep, that would hurt. I dunno - depends how you define love too? I know that the people I genuinely like and care about, I feel a kind of love for too. As lovely as it would be to hear these words, I think there are many reasons why a T cannot 'love' clients. They may or may not feel love in the way I have mentioned above. How would it make you feel if you actually heard these words? Would you still feel as comfortable bringing up certain topics in T? Would you worry more that 'saying the wrong thing' would then make her not love you? Don't know if I'm making much sense...I suppose I mean...would it distract you from doing the hard work?
And many other reasons - obvious ones being professional boundaries etc - sorry LG, my head is spinning in 500 gazillion directions all at once atm
Maybe she brought it up as a core issue type thing? I know that this is probably a core issue for me...so I do understand. Yeah, I hear you....why is being told you are loveable, liked and cared about just not enough sometimes?
It is so hard.

Faith xx

I think she was telling you that she loves you. Ts are cautious about expressing such things and you never know. Maybe it was risky for her to say I love you because she was afraid you'd say that she was only saying that because she was paid. Or maybe she didn't want to say it directly because you'd refute it some how. I think the fact that she brought this up and discussed was her way of saying that she loves you. It is up to you to believe it or not. I hope you do believe it. You can pay someone to listen and talk to you but you can not pay them to like or love you.

Yaku,

You bring up some good points about Ts needing to be cautious about what they say because of how it may be twisted or misinterpreted. I suppose even if she did feel love for me, she would have to be careful about expressing it.

Faithless,
I think even without T saying "i love you", i do feel uncomfortable bringing up certain topics because I am so afraid of disappointing her. I can only imagine how it might be intensified if she said she loved me. I'd be so afraid of losing her love.

I do think she brought it up as a core issue thing. What preceeded her bringing it up was her asking me what my biggest fear regarding my mother is and I said, "That she will die before I am able to get her to love me" and T sort of gasped and although I couldn't see her (we do phone therapy), I felt as though I heard a little bit of choking up in her voice and she said, "Wow, that is a very powerful statement. it knocked the wind out of me". and then she went on to say that I am loveable, etc.

She also said that it is very important to her that I know that she will never leave me, that no matter how much I try to push her away, she is always going to be right there for me. (I had fired her earlier in the week).

So I think she was trying to show me that I am capable of being cared about unconditionally, but being cared about and being loved are two different things in my mind. Oh how I long to hear that she loves me.

L2F,
You are right...you can pay someone to listen, but you cannot pay them to like or love you. I do believe that T1 genuinely likes me as a person. I know that she finds me funny and I do believe that she enjoys working with me...and that is something that no amount of money can create. But I do wish I didn't have to pay her to be a part of my life.

Yes that is the painful part of therapy I think too.

Have you ever watched the Sopranos? There is a scene where Tony Soprano gets mad at his Shrink for this very reason and he starts throwing money at her. I loved that show for the fact that it had so many episodes devoted to Tony and his therapist in therapy. I don't think I'd have watched it otherwise. I loved Dr. Melfi too. Don't mean to get off topic but just was curious.

Oh, yeah. I loved those seasons of Sopranos that dealt with the therapist. I was a huge fan of the show as a whole, but those episodes especially. The fact that Tony, who is essentially your classic sociopath, could feel that intense need to be liked by his therapist speaks volumes about the power of therapy and the significance of the therapeutic relationship.

OK, now I have to go and rent Sopranos to watch...

I do think that she does genuinely care about you, but as the others have mentioned, therapeutic boundaries and professionalism prevent her from using the "l" word.

Personally, I know that I struggle to say the "l" word to anyone. Growing up, it was an automatic response every time we spoke to our parents or left the house or anything. It really devalued the word for me. I have a few special friends in my life who tell me they love me, and I struggle to respond.

Anyway, I like how Yaku summed it up:
"loveable + like + care about = "I love you" in therapist speak" and I think that especially given the history you have with T1, her words were definitely T-code for love

quote:

Originally posted by Room2Grow:
OK, now I have to go and rent Sopranos to watch...



Anyway, I like how Yaku summed it up:
"loveable + like + care about = "I love you" in therapist speak" and I think that especially given the history you have with T1, her words were definitely T-code for love

I agree, R2G. I love how Yaku summed that up as well. So much so that I think I may just have to write that in my book of favorite quotes that I keep by my bedside.

R2G, The therapy part of the Sopranos is a small part of the overall show and only is part of a few seasons, if my memory serves me correctly. Its a good show though, and worth watching but there is a lot of violence and sociopathic behavior in the show, so keep that in mind. I almost didn't marry my husband because of a fight we had about one of the episodes of that show...seriously. He was staunchly defending some of the sociopathic behavior on the show and I had a major problem with that. I should have listened to my inner voice and not married him.

anyway, if you do watch that show, just be careful to pay attention to how you are feeling in case anything is triggering. Its a good show, but not worth triggering oneself.

Hi LG,

It sounds like you feel better about it now but I just wanted to mention that sometimes even if they do say they love you, that would bring up a host of other issues for you such as fear of losing that love. It seems like something nice that you might want but .... it's the ole, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

Oh, thanks for the heads up LG. I'm not a fan of violence, it totally triggers me. Maybe I'll google the therapy scenes and see if I can find 'em on youtube

I love the bedside quote book - great idea! (might have to borrow that one myself!)

I really wish I would have had the courage to say to T1, "I don't want you to like me. I want you to love me". I wonder what she would have said. Probably something like, "Well, I care about you deeply." Puke. maybe some day I will work up the courage to say that to her.

R2G

The Sopranos is a great but it is about a modern day mafia. So there is that sort of violence in it. The therapy sessions aren't violent per se. I recommend trying the pilot episode (Season 1 episode 1) to see what you think. They said they could have made that episdoe into a movie by itself. I agree too. The opening scene is TOny Soprano meeting with a psychiatrist (who later counsels him weekly) for the first time. So you see him in the waiting room and then as they meet and try to figure out why Tony is there. He's this macho guy so it's sort of funny.

(Don't mean to take the thread over)

T Code for Love - that could be a book title.

Monte,

I know what you mean about thumbing your nose at all the people who didn't love you if you were to hear that your T loves you. My T1 has said a few times recently what a wonderful daughter I am to my mother and my mother is lucky to have me as a daughter. It felt so good to hear that. In one email to her I wished her a happy mother's day and she wrote back thank you and said, " If your mother really knew what kind of person she has for a daughter, she would hug you and say that she is proud to be your mother. I would give you a hug if I could. Sending you one anyway." I cannot tell you how many times I have gone back and read that email over and over again. It felt almost as good as hearing that she loves me would feel.

Sometimes I wonder if I go to therapy long enough, maybe then she will love me....but I went to her for two years 1992-1994 and now again for seven months. Maybe a few more years and she will love me?? lol. I am embarrassed to admit that I hope that time will do the trick.

Sorry, expected to reply earlier - have just had a really quite heavy conversation with mum on the phone. LG, as I said before, I have real trouble expressing myself in a coherent way, and going back to what yaku said - that is exactly what (I think) I was trying to say - love means different things to different people. I think for me, to know that I am liked, cared for and respected for who I am, does in some way = love
But T's have boundaries which they have to work within, and just cannot use 'that word' kwim?

I swear...I do totally get where you are coming from...I had a hug with my counsellor today...first one in a good while....comforting, is all I can say. Understand your pain LG....and although I can see logically how it all fits...I just can't FEEL it yet.

(((((LG))))

Faith xx

LG,

I can see why her statement to you could have been received as a painful statement (I don't love you) or as a positive statement so I totally get why you were upset by it. It really leaves the question of "I love you" just hanging out there. I do agree with Yaku about her equation though. There is no doubt that your T1 cares deeply for you.

I hate this very thing in my relationship with my T as well. I have had the unfortunate position of having a little part tell T that she loves her. It makes me crazy because I understand the therapeutic boundaries and I also know that T doesn't love me. I know that she cares about me and my well being, but I doubt that it goes beyond what she feels for any client. Once when LK talked to T about loving her, T said that there are many different kinds of love and that it's okay to feel love for being nurtured and cared for. She said it could be like love that you have for friends or neighbors. That didn't make LK feel any better, because again in not saying it (which I am glad she didn't) it's as if she is saying that she doesn't. I think for me, my mother never expressed physical affection toward me at all. She never said she loved me. I spent my entire life trying to get her to love me and wondering why I was so unlovable. So now, with T, she gives me so much of what I need and yet still no matter what I do she will never love me (because she can't). She has said many times that my mom is missing out on having a wonderful daughter etc. She says many things like that, but it still brings up the feelings of "if I were good enough she would love me". If T were to say that she loved me I probably wouldn't believe her and I would mistrust her motives and I would probably worry about losing that love.

My old T who I still have contact with and had a limited relationship with outside of therapy always told me that I held a special place in her heart. That was nice and I appreciated it, but it still stung because it stopped short of "love". On the other hand, she holds a special place in my heart as well, but I don't think that I love her. Frankly, I often wonder if I would really know love if it came up and bit me. I mean, after all, I didn't exactly have shining examples growing up.

Sorry, that was a bit of a hijack in answering your post. What I meant was the I can relate and I also think you have to be careful what you wish for. Love is so loaded.

quote:

But T's have boundaries which they have to work within, and just cannot use 'that word' kwim?

But why...why do they have to work within that boundary?? I just don't understand who our Ts are protecting by not using that L word. Are they protecting themselves...or us? How could love be damaging? How could it hurt our therapy? How can something so healing be considered dangerous?

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
LG...I hope the same...still...been with my T 15 years. It doesn't alter a thing. The relationship is special and life-impacting, but does not offer "I love you."

Monte

*Sigh* it pains my hear to read something so true...that it can be life-impacting, but does not offer love. It leaves me feeling a little bit empty and sad inside. Its like the road that leads to nowhere. The journey can be good, but its not really going anywhere. You never reach your destination.

quote:

f T were to say that she loved me I probably wouldn't believe her and I would mistrust her motives and I would probably worry about losing that love.

STRM,

What do you mean when you say you would mistrust her motives? What would you think her motive was if she did tell you that she loves you?

I can understand how it felt vulnerable that a little part of you told her you love her. I hope this doesn't come out as insensitive or offense, but I sort of wish that I had a little part that could say "I love you" to my T. I want to be able to say it without completely owning it. God, I hope that wasn't offensive. I don't know what its like to have DID, so I apologize if I have said something inappropriate. I guess I just think its sweet that one of your little parts was able to tell your T that she loved her, and even though you were a little embarrassed, there seems like a bit of a safety net built into that statement in that it wasn't all of your parts that said that to her. Does that make sense?

LG, IMHO they are protecting us. I've been with my T for 3 1/2 years and we had the "I dont' love you" convo in April. It was excruciatingly painful. I too had it in the back of my mind that if I stay in therapy long enough, he's bound to love me at some point or at least I would hope he would come to love me.

But he insists that will never happen. And the thing is, if he did, then the relationship would be meeting his needs as well as mine. And that would interfere with my healing because it all has to be about us. They can't get emotionally involved with us.

As I reflect more and more on this process, I am starting to think that's what parenting should be all about too. And I think part of what screws kids up is when parents use their children to meet their emotional needs. I don't know. Maybe I'm confusing getting emotional needs met with love. I have to think about this more. What exactly is love?

Honestly, LG, I would encourage you to have the convo with her as soon as you feel you are able. I struggled with my feelings on my own for months and months and tried to hide my feelings from T. The aftermath of the convo for me was brutal but also there was a bit of a relief that I didn't have to hide my feelings anymore. And then comes the growth.

Hopefully.

I did bring up love recently because I mentioned to T1 that T2 thinks I love her. T1 said, "What makes you say that?" and I said, "Because she has said so twice. But I don't love her. " T1 changed the subject which made me think she was scared that I was going to tell her that I love her. She seemed a little uncomfortable with the conversation. although, maybe I am just projecting since it was me who was uncomfortable with the convo.

You know, I guess for a T to love us the relationship would have to have something in it for them and since it is one-sided then I guess it stands to reason that they wouldn't love us.

I think what they model is like love, but it isn't the same as love in a two sided relationship.

Oh and LG, the distrust of T's motives is totally twisted on my part. I guess I would wonder what she was trying to make happen by telling me she loves me. Like, it wouldn't be real and she was just using it as a therapeutic tool.

It doesn't bother me that parts of me love my T and in a way that he can never really return...it makes me sad. However, I also try to remind myself that he has managed to get a part of me that didn't ever seem to feel that way about mom and stopped feeling that way about dad to feel love again. Even if he can only have the sort of one human soul coming into contact with another sort of love, one in which I am not an object, but just a valuable part of his experience as a human being...that is beautiful in its own way. It's not that I don't want more, but I can live without it. It's a lot easier since he has started telling that part she is favored, valuable, cared for, liked, etc. It's tender in that bittersweet, painful and healing at once, sort of way.

quote:

Even if he can only have the sort of one human soul coming into contact with another sort of love, one in which I am not an object, but just a valuable part of his experience as a human being...that is beautiful in its own way. It's not that I don't want more, but I can live without it. It's a lot easier since he has started telling that part she is favored, valuable, cared for, liked, etc. Big Grin It's tender in that bittersweet, painful and healing at once, sort of way.

Yaku,

You explained this so well!! That is what it feels like for me as well. I definitely feel a connection with T in the way that you described. T has made reference to our bond and connection many times and I do feel that. It definitely is bittersweet.

Even the whole like thing though. How do you know if your T actually really and truly likes you or just likes you for therapeutic benefit? You know? I mean, I think my T does because it feels like she does, but maybe it is all just her being in T mode. Sheesh, what is up with me tonight?!

quote:

Even the whole like thing though. How do you know if your T actually really and truly likes you or just likes you for therapeutic benefit? You know? I mean, I think my T does because it feels like she does, but maybe it is all just her being in T mode. Sheesh, what is up with me tonight?!

I think with T1, I can tell that she genuinely likes me because I make her laugh a lot and she often says things like, "You are so funny. I really enjoy working with you so much" and when she says it, it is perhaps the most authentic moments I have with her. There have been times on the phone when we've both been laughing so hard that neither of us can talk for a few seconds because we are gasping for air and laughing so hard. Oh how I cherish those moments!!

LG,

That's funny!

Yeah, I mean T and I have many connected moments both funny and serious. I think she likes me because she actually does, but I just started wondering tonight after thinking about all of this like/love/can't say it/boundaries etc. discussion.

I'd like to offer a different view... the view of my current T. He says that Ts don't like to discuss "love" and are fearful of it in most cases. He says that Ts are not immune from the feelings in the room...meaning the love and affection that naturally develops. He says that it's almost impossible to have a long-standing, psychodynamic style, therapeutic relationship without some type of love blooming within the dyad. Okay, so maybe it's not romantic love but it can be agape love or unconditional love. He does not seem to back away from it or fear it. He tells me that it's okay to have those feelings.

As for me I struggle with getting too near to him because of what oldT did to me. I have a suspicion that oldT had strong feelings for me (maybe even romantic ones?....I shudder as I type that) and when it got too intense he freaked out and abandoned me. He could not handle the love that blooms in psychodynamic therapy. My T says that oldT probably never experienced the type of relationship I built with him and he acted like an intern with no supervision, which is dangerous to the patient.

So... I am very skittish of acknowledging any feelings I have for my T although they are growing and getting really hard to ignore. He wants me to talk about how I'm feeling... or any of my feelings and reassures me that he accepts all my feelings and they are okay and even healthy.

So LG... I do think your T1 has love for you. It is evident in what I see of your relationship with her. Sometimes when we are too close to the situation we cannot see it as well. At this point in my therapy life the words are not as important as the actions of the T. If the T behaves in a loving way, then it's a pretty good bet that they feel love for the patient.

TN

quote:

Okay, so maybe it's not romantic love but it can be agape love or unconditional love. He does not seem to back away from it or fear it. He tells me that it's okay to have those feelings.

TN,

This very much reminds me of my T. She does not shy away from it at all, but of course uses the words "connected/connection" or "bond" instead of love. She has told LK that it is okay for her to have those feelings (while clarifying what type of "love" would NOT be okay...as in romantic). I think that I have felt how deeply my T cares for me, but I back away from acknowledging that because it isn't possible because I feel unlovable/unlikeable at a core level.

I'm glad that you have your T and that he is so accepting of all of this. I can only imagine how hard it is after everything that happened with OldT.

I am still scared to death I'm going to end up saying it to T one day unexpectedly. There have been times I've received a text and my kiddo feelings welled up inside of me and that part of me just spontaneously busted out, out loud, "I love him!!!" Even though I was alone, I turned a bit red, because it was so unexpected. I have let him know the "I miss you" messages I get from that same place and he has been totally accepting. I doubt anything bad would happen, but it's confusing, because objectively, I see him as like a mentor or partner in my journey right now...but this very small child just sees the person she loves and trusts most in the world right now. And, then there are several other opinions thrown in there to muck things up.

I do think, as Monte implied, it is probably easier for a T to get drawn into counter-transference with the "inner child" when that child is more segregated and obvious. I think as long as the therapist is clear (like STRM's is) about what type of relationship is definitely NOT available, that isn't too much of a problem and can be very healing. My protective parts cause a lot of interference in receiving that sort of nurture, knowing its limitations. That can be frustrating.

Oh, I wasn't meaning counter-transference in a negative way either, to tell you the truth. I was just reading an article on how important those feelings can be in certain therapeutic scenarios, as long as the T is aware of them and addressing anything that's not of therapeutic benefit, as you say.