(((Liese))) The waiting IS so hard. I'm sure your T understands and doesn't think you are too needy or unappreciative. I think, working with us (especially when things are weekly/twice a week over a long period) so much and so deeply, they really get to know us. When I find myself expressing similar things that make me anxious (worries that it sounds like I'm lying or that T doesn't know how much I appreciate things, etc.), T says things that help me understand that he already "knows" it. He already knows I wouldn't intentionally mislead him. He knows how meaningful his help is to me and how much I appreciate it. Still, he appreciates my making the effort to communicate those thoughts and feelings, to build our connectedness and also my sense of safety staying connected. Anyway, I'm sure your T already knows, for sure, that you are very appreciative, just because it is who you are and have been throughout your work with him. Also, I'm sure he will be very glad to hear it from you directly. Lastly, I bet he will be happy that rather than sitting alone and suffering with the anxiety produced by your sense of having "messed up," you let him in on what is going on, let him help, don't put yourself through needless suffering just to protect him from your own feelings and needs. That's my bet!

((Liese))

Would it help for me to say I totally get it??

hugs..,Hope he gets back to you quickly!

hi Liese. you've been with your T for a long time and he knows you probably better than anybody. from what i know about you i doubt he's thinking anything other than positive thoughts. and after your conversation those thoughts will be even greater. you're a greatful client and imagine that goes a LONG way with Ts, as i'm sure they don't get the thanks they deserve. take a deep breath and believe in yourself. you done good

((Liese)) I hope he gets back to you - he should have by now I would assume!

I've done a similar activity (calling to say thank you, or sorry). Waiting is the worst part, but I'm hoping when you can talk to him you will feel better. I know stuff like this really stirs me up too! Hoping you are doing a more solid connection now and heard back

I don't like his secretary. My T with a secretary she is so helpful... my T is always booked up and busy but the receptionist will usually let me know that she'll let T know, and T will do her best. I'd be sad if she was just like "T is busy" I'd probably say "oh... okay well don't leave a msg". So I'm glad you left one anyway

I agree - waiting sucks. I am sure your T already knows you appreciate him, and hearing it from you will be icing on the cake. I'm hoping he called back? And if not, I'm hoping you left him a voicemail?

(((((ANON)))))(((((DRAGGERS))))((((ANG))))(((CLOSED DOORS))))((((CAT))))((((R2G))))

Thank you all for the support. It was really helpful. My T's sessions are 45 minutes. I set the alarm on my cell phone to go off when his sessions end. I did this so I could try to let go of that anxious, absorbed, obsessive thinking and feeling while waiting to hear back from him and actually get some constructive things done in my real life. I wanted to stay aware of when he might have a break and might call so that I'd have my phone handy and that's why I set the alarm. It helped a lot to do this.

When he called, I thought he sounded annoyed but maybe that was just me reading into things. He might have just been tired because Thursdays are the end of his week and, in addition to doing therapy, he's now teaching 3 classes.

I explained that I felt really bad about not expressing how much I appreciate all he's done for me over the past 3 weeks, how sensitive and thoughtful he's been towards my separation issues. I told him that I felt so bad that I was even able to overcome my fear of talking to his secretary.

He knows about the problems I've had with her. And yes, CAT, she bugs me too. Why can't she just take a message? I HAVE backed down in the past in response to her but was determined to be assertive yesterday. And I was. And I was nice about it too. I told her that it wasn't urgent but it was important and to please ask him to call me when he had a moment.

My T said that it was his pleasure. He also said I was growing by leaps and bounds. I think this was in response to what I said about tolerating his secretary. In the past, I wait until his office is closed and leave a message for him on voicemail to avoid talking to her. I am sure my T knows I avoid her like this but has never brought it up or forbidden me from doing that or insist that I go through her to get to him. He has always graciously tolerated my voicemails, for which I have always been grateful.

I felt so good after talking to him. It was amazing how quickly my anxiety went away. I didn't want to dwell too much on it last night because I just wanted to enjoy the connection with him.

My question now is, if anyone wants to take a stab, did I do the right thing by calling him? The phone call was really for me. I knew that at the time. I also knew the relationship would probably be fine if I waited till Monday to talk to him but my anxiety about him not "loving" me as much or thinking negatively about me was SO great that I couldn't let it go. I needed to know we were okay.

Yay! Glad he called

If it helps stabilize you, makes you feel well and connected there is nothing "not right" at all. If your Ts boundaries allow then I say why not... And even if they don't why not ask?

I'd like to think (and have heard this from one of my Ts and someone around the forum before) that if a short phone call, message, fax, email...are going to stop you from hours or days of anxiety or suffering a T would rather you recognize that and sooth than just suffer through. Depends individually but it sounds like your T is supportive of your contact for those reasons so... No it wasn't wrong. Sometimes it can feel guilty/wrong though!

((((CAT))))

You are so right. The advice you gave me is exactly what I would say to anyone else. I wish I still wasn't so afraid of displeasing T or making him angry.

quote:

The advice you gave me is exactly what I would say to anyone else. I wish I still wasn't so afraid of displeasing T or making him angry.

Hehe taking our own advice is so hard. I wish I wasn't afraid of of displeasing my T either... what does your T do when you apologize (do you? - I don't mean that in a bad way I just mean do you say 'Sorry I just had to ___' - I do)? Or thank, or... say you worry he's mad?

My T helps me with this well they are both different. T2 has basically accepted the fact I say sorry once every 10 minutes about something or other - so we sort of go with the 'you can say it as many times as you want but you have nothing to be sorry for' approach. So almost every time I say sorry she will say 'I know, and it's okay to say sorry as many times as you want'. With T1 she will just tell me you have nothing to be sorry for she's fine.

Now... if I say I'm worried they will be mad... the approach is well, at first I'd accuse them of being mad. "I knwo you're mad" "You're made at me" "I'm pretty sure I made you angry". We worked on the fact I can't know how other people feel through my reframing the question or dealing with "You can't know how I feel, but I am not [angry, mad, etc]". So now we've moved on to my asking or saying I'm worried... so "I'm scared I made you mad, are you mad?" or "I thought maybe you would be mad, are you?" (sorta sometimes I still don't ask how I'd like to). Usually T1 will just say "That's what I'm here for, it's okay" (in regard to whatever I think she's mad about) and T2 will usually say "I know you worry about that so much, and I'm not mad, that's what I'm here for... etc". If I'm asking because I saw a look, heard a noise, saw body language they'll tell me what they were doing or just say.

So... the reason I'm writing you 1000 paragraphs of rambling..... is just to tell you what has worked for me there so that my worry is 0.000001% better than it used to be. I still freak out, but to calm myself I say... I can't know how they feel. What behaviors do I notice that would indicate they are angry? What is my history of this situation and them being angry?

But the hardest part... and you know this... is the trust. Do I trust them not to turn on me, do I trust them when they tell me I can do x and if I do x can they accept me. Can they accept what I feel? Who I am...? That's really the work, I think. But... the stuff above I find makes it more manageable for my T and I to "get there" and it makes our rupture/repair cycle extremely infrequent - it used to be all the time now it's way more rare and/or cured in 10 minutes.

((((CAT))))

quote:

So... the reason I'm writing you 1000 paragraphs of rambling..... is just to tell you what has worked for me there so that my worry is 0.000001% better than it used to be.

LOL! Only 0.000001% better? You are not giving me too much hope here.

I can't remember too many conversations re: worrying about my T being angry with me or me apologizing for something but I'm sure we've had more than I can recall. He pretty much says what your T's say in some way, shape or form. Mostly lately he's been trying to convince me that it's okay to reach out to him and to need him and that's it's safe.

quote:

Do I trust them not to turn on me, do I trust them when they tell me I can do x and if I do x can they accept me.

This is exactly what I worry about. Why are we so worried that they are going to turn on us? I hope that if and when my T responds in a less than "acceptable" way to me, that I'll be strong enough to not let it rock my boat.

quote:

it makes our rupture/repair cycle extremely infrequent - it used to be all the time now it's way more rare and/or cured in 10 minutes.

Yes, same for me. Just two weeks ago, I felt my T ditched me in the hallway as we were walking out. I had to miss my next Monday appointment on August 27th and was feeling like he wasn't taking my separation issues seriously. I had been secretly hoping that he'd give me a transitional object but he didn't. I could ask for one and thought about it but somehow that would take away some of the specialness.

In the past, all of this would have led to a major crisis and I might have placed a phone call. This time, I felt secure enough that he and I were okay and even though I was disappointed that he wasn't taking my separation issues seriously, he has been so terrific lately that I generally felt okay with it.

When I saw him last Thursday, I told him he can't ditch me in the hall anymore. That if he doesn't want to talk to me because he has to stick to his schedule, we can walk out fast but he can't stop, say goodbye to me so that I'll keep walking and then follow me down the hallway anyway. I didn't bring up the transitional object.

He said he couldn't remember doing that and didn't know why he would have done that. In fact, he was hoping his secretary would say, "See you Monday? Liese" because she always says that when I walk out. :heart blink: But she was on the phone and didn't say it to me.

The reason this was so significant is because I knew weeks in advance that I couldn't make my Monday, August 27th, appointment. And I told my T weeks in advance so he would know but also told him that I had to pretend I was still coming to the appointment in order to deal with the separation. I joked that I would call him that morning from vacation to tell him I was canceling.

So, T left my name in his appointment book up until the actual date of the appointment. He hadn't even told his secretary that I wasn't coming in on Monday. And that's why he wanted her to say, "see you Monday, Liese," because he wanted me to know that he had left my name in the book and was going along with my little game.

When he told me that he hadn't cancelled me in his book, I expressed concern that he waited too long to fill my slot since he waited until the 27th to tell the secretary I wasn't coming in. He unwillingly told me had filled the slot but he said it really didn't matter to him if he filled it or not. :heart blink: The point is, he had gone along with my denial and saved it for me (until the last minute) even though he knew I wasn't coming in.

I know this was a long winded story. But the point is it would have led to a major rupture in the past but this time it was just a minor ruffle. I was a little bent out of shape because I didn't get my transitional object and I thought he ditched me in the hallway and was being insensitive to my separation issues. And, honestly, nothing could be further from the truth. That kind of thoughtfulness hurts for some reason. Ouch.

Thanks for sharing.

((((CAT)))) or ((((ANYONE ELSE)))))

Wondering if I can have your help with something. I'm feeling a bit pissed off at T this morning and, of course, rather than just being pissed off I'm questioning whether or not I have a right to be pissed off. Why can't I just accept that I am even if it's irrational or I'm being unreasonable?

Anyway, I told T what I said to his secretary and how proud I was of myself that I was assertive. I'm referring to the below, when you wrote:

quote:

I don't like his secretary. My T with a secretary she is so helpful... my T is always booked up and busy but the receptionist will usually let me know that she'll let T know, and T will do her best. I'd be sad if she was just like "T is busy" I'd probably say "oh... okay well don't leave a msg".

I thought he'd be proud of me too. Instead he just said, well, what if, instead of trying to convince you I'm too busy to talk to you, she's just letting you know that she doesn't know when I'll be able to get back to you? (I've been seeing T for almost 5 years. I pretty much know by now that the man is booked back to back and I have to wait for a break or the end of his day for him to call me. But I suppose that's irrelevant.)

I responded with, Well, that wasn't her intention when I called and asked to talk to you or leave a message and she replied Liese, you are seeing him tomorrow. Do you really need to talk to him?

He agreed with me.

But so here's why I'm pissed off. I'm someone who has had trouble with validating myself. I tend to think it's irrelevant that his secretary might have intended something innocuous or was even trying to be helpful.

The point (for me) was that I experience her as a ROAD BLOCK. I expected her response when I called (because she's says it without fail every single time) and I was nice and assertive and asked for what I wanted and I DIDN'T BACK DOWN.

Maybe it's just that T missed the boat with that one and rather than praise me for being assertive decided to challenge my interpretation of his secretary's intentions?

Let's say Susie has intention B but it's coming across as intention A to 80% of the people Susie interacts with. And not only is the wrong intention coming across but a negative one at that. Would it be more important for me to experience Susie the way I experience her but still manage to get what I want whilst still being nice? Or would it be more important for me to consider that her intention might in fact be intention B?

What if T is wrong and she's IS being a road block - which is how I've always experienced her? Would T's alternate explanation for her behavior be a good thing or a bad thing?


Just for your own knowledge:

Whenever I have called to talk to him out of session - all of his secretaries always say, "he's booked back to back." It's their mantra. One says it nicer than the other two but they all say it.

The exchange has never happened like this:

Liese - "Hi Susie, can I talk to Dr. Walsh?"

Susie - "Liese, I'm sorry but he's in session now. Can I take a message?"

Liese - "Oh, Susie that would be great. Can you ask him to call me when he has a spare minute?"

Susie - "Sure, Liese. I just want you to know, though, that I don't know when exactly he will get back to you."

Liese - "Okay, Susie. Thanks for telling me."

Obviously, I need to go work on something else and stop ruminating on this!

Or maybe the invalidation was intentional to get me to stand up for myself? Hmmmmmm.....

I agree that it is GREAT that you were able to stick with what you need and not let the message (whether it was sent OR perceived) of T's busy-ness from his secretary keep you from doing something you knew would help you. I think T just missed the boat on what you needed in that moment, which was for him to be proud of you for being assertive about your needs. I bet if you told him how it made you feel, he will work this through with you. We can never really know, for sure, what someone's intentions are. Regardless, their intentions do not invalidate how their words or actions make us feel. My H and I get into arguments a lot where he insists my intentions are different than they are. It is a very delicate thing to try to suggest I don't think/feel the way he presumes while still validating his hurt feelings as the result of that presumption. Sounds like T kind of biffed it and I hope you can be assertive again to tell him what you felt like you needed from him there and how it hurt to feel like he was more interested in defending his secretary's motivations (she represents him, so I get why he might) than validating your sense of achievement.

((((ANON))))

Thank you for those words. I read them right before I went to my appointment and they really helped to focus me. I was brave and I was nice. I told him that I really wanted him to be proud of how assertive I was. He said he was and he smiled but then didn't express it verbally and he should have.

T said he said what he said that so that I didn't take what the secretary said personally. (Not sure I am buying that. Offering an alternative way to interpret what she said is very different than telling someone not to take something personally. Because even if she had more helpful intentions, as T is suggesting, then I should take that personally, that she's being helpful? but I shouldn't take it personally if she had a negative message?)

I said to T, why not just say that? "Liese, I hope you know that it wasn't anything personal. She says that to everyone."

IDK, the reason I was so excited about the exchange is because I DIDN'T take it personally. I anticipated ahead of time what she was going to say and decided how I was going to handle it. I didn't get angry or feel thwarted by her. I just had my mission and was determined to complete it.

So there was no reason for him to reassure me that it wasn't personal. I didn't go in there complaining about it being a personal attack.

Uggggggghhhhhhh, does communication have to be so complicated? Or is it just me? (Please don't tell me it's just me - even if it is. LOL!)

All in all, it was a good session. He told me he needs me to tell him when he misses the boat like that.

I'm glad you were able to tell your T what you needed and get him back on the boat. Yeah, I agree, that things are often more complicated than they seem like they need to be, but I haven't found a way to make them less complicated myself, so definitely don't think it's just you!!! Off to get Boo ready for a nap, but SO glad you talked to your T directly about it. Good job!!! That can be really hard and I'm sure he's proud of you for that too!