Hiya, Liese! Thanks for starting this thread, this is a great topic. Initially, my BB-brain got scared off by the words "identity formation/separation issues" cause I didn't really know what that means...if you and AG are talking about feeling separate person from your therapist, and therapist pushing you in that direction...hmm then I have a lot to think about on that topic because it comes up for me alot. I get realllly confused, Liese...how much attachment in therapy is good attachment and how much is bad, and where to draw the line, and is the therapist the one who is supposed to draw that line, or the client, and in what areas....aaagh! I feel sooo dependent on my T, and I'm really ok with that right now (finally) but is he ok with it, and for how long?

quote:

My T was there in an instant to provide me with what I really needed from him but would never do for me something I was capable of doing for myself.

AG, I know you are in the middle of the Thanksgiving holidays, but if you or anyone on here could give an example of how this plays out in a therapy setting, once you get the chance, I would also love to hear about the actual experience of it, because I too get really confused in this area. For example, is my T suggesting that I take a break from therapy and then come back to it potentially something that he thinks I need to do to learn how to "stand on my own two feet" or is he jumping the gun here by suggesting this, why does the mere suggestion hurt so much...and so on. I feel like my emotional "ability" to be authentically and spontaneously a feeling person is inextricably linked to my T right now, and I'm not feeling all that anxious to cut it off- unless he were to tell me to. kwim?

Liese could you give us an example of a specific situation, that is, if you are comfortable doing that?

BB

Hi Beebs,

I can only imagine how painful that was to hear. That your T thinks you should take a break. I don't know how you felt, but I would feel abandoned. Just a question, can you say, "no I'm not ready for a break?" or would you be too hurt that you are being pushed away to say it and let it go and mean it?

I have been thinking that the identity formation and separation issues play out exactly as you describe. My T would never admit it but I do think my recent troubles with him had to do with helping me with separation and identity formation issues. But let's talk about your situation. He presented you with something that makes you angry because you are not ready to stand on your own yet. You know what you want out of therapy and you know you don't know enough to go out there and stand on your own yet, yes? true? Don't let me put words in your mouth. Two things could happen, you could stuff your own needs and agree to the break. (Usually what I do) Or you could tap into that hurt and try to figure out what it is telling you. You (and I) will get stronger when we can tap into our own needs and speak up for them. So that was really spot on, Beebs. Let me know if you understand what I mean. Hope things are well on your side of the world. Sorry I'm not as verbose as everyone else. It's hard for me to be really verbal about something I don't fully understand.

Oh Beebs, and how brilliant of you to bring in the attachment issues ..... I do think about that also .... sometimes I try to move closer to him just because i think I should ... "i've been seeing him for 3 years and this relationship should be like x, y or z ... or it should be like so and so's because they hug ... or they can ask for this or that and that's where i need to be" but that's not a real genuine closeness but me trying to force the closeness ...

still other times I need to be closer to him because of what is going on in my life. And I've been really trying to sort things through, when I am trying to force closeness because I think I should be closer to him and when I really need him to be close, to hold me close. And sorting all that stuff out will ultimately lead to the identity formation and more genuine relationships. I think!!!! Not sure!!!!

You do not need to apologize for not being more verbose...we all write what we are capable of here, and we all do the best we can. these thing are truly difficult to put into words.

I just used the example of my T suggesting a break "as a possible option" because it seemed to be the same kind of thing you were talking about...I guess I was wondering if a person could have identity formed and then separate within the context of therapy, or if it's "too late" if you didn't get that in childhood. idk, sometimes it can feel like I have no spearate identity, and it sounds like you were wondering the same thing. The ball is totally in my court on that break score- and he has made that clear...but I just wondered if this is an example of what you are talking about. If I took a break, would I be giving up, or trying to stand on my own two feet... right now it feels like I would be giving up, which is why I have chosen to ignore this suggestion. So in a way, I *am* making a decision independent of my therapist- the decision to cling onto his leg like a two-year old, and not let go, even if he *might* (?) be trying to shake me off!

So, you feel like you "should" be moving closer, but you don't...has he made moving closer (trusting him) easier for you? If not, one way to "get your needs met" as you wisely notice, would be to tell him that you need him to find ways to help you trust him more?? and make the requests for help as specific as you can. Just a thought...

Love,

Beebs

Hi Liese, i actually dont know if i`ve welcomed you here yet, so therefor i like to use this thread/opportunity to say welcome (way to late though). I dont have any book-tips though...sorry. Seperation issues are huge in my therapy, and despite that i use to read ALOT of therapy/psychonalytic literature,(loved reading freud, melanie Klein, Jung and all the "big ones" but i havent experienced it as a direclty helpful knowing this things..Indeed it gives a intelectual "framwork", thats a good thing, but knowing this stuff didnt use to help me emotionally when the i dealt with seperation issues/angst. Sorry for not anwering your question at all- i actually dont understand what "identity formation" is??! And how is it linked to seperation issues? if so? Hmm, lol, i have a lot to learn! (both language and psychology- terms, i guess!) So, your 3 years into therapy-? thats great! Can i ask how often you go, and what kind of therapy it is?
Have a good day!

HI Frog,

Never too late to say Hi. Really glad you did. Wow you've really done a lot of reading. But you didn't find it helpful? How long have you been in therapy? What kind of therapy do you do? Tell me about you, only if you want to ....

I don't really know what I mean about identity formation. Just the usual, I guess. The stronger a person's identity, the happier a person is. The better able they are to withstand the stress of life. I think separation aids in identity formation because you develop a stronger sense of self as opposed to the enmeshed stuff I grew up with ..... anyway, I was wondering how they helped you accomplish that in therapy, what techniques they might use. Maybe that's where all the boundary stuff comes in ..... I know my T recently said some things to me that really upset me ... when I got home, I thought, are those his fears? Because I don't think he's right about that ... so then I realized that many people project their fears onto us .... and if we have a strong sense of self, we'll let it slide off and just be comfortable with who we are .... so I went back and told him, I don't think you are right. And things have been great ever since. And so, now I'm thinking that those really weren't his fears, he was just doing that to help me differentiate??? Does that make sense? He swears he's a terrible actor. I guess I should try to just trust the process instead of trying to figure out how he's trying to help me ....

Been in therapy for three years. My T's background is CBT but true CBT is short-term, no? My guess is over the years he has discovered that true change takes a long time. After telling me we were not growing old together (1 1/2 years ago) much to my dismay and more recently, he told me I did not purchase a life-time membership (kind of softly but it still hurt) .... Just the other day, he told me I can stay as long as I want, that there is no timetable. I was so happy to hear him say that but am a bit confused by his other statements in the past. Not sure what changed for him. He did tell me that I've made a lot of progress in the last 4 weeks, so was it something I've done that now he's able to offer me that security? Or is it just the way I asked it???? (He's been telling me I need to be more direct) Anyway, it really meant a lot to me that he said that and I think I might be able to trust him more.

Does any of this make sense?

ooo, Liese I can totally understand why it would hurt to say you "didn't purchase a lifetime membership..." ooo, ouch.

On the other hand, maybe he was trying to give you a push...? To speak, to open up, make progress? idk...

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He did tell me that I've made a lot of progress in the last 4 weeks, so was it something I've done that now he's able to offer me that security? Or is it just the way I asked it?

hmm...I don't know...I noticed my T became more "welcoming" after some time...something changed, and he expalined to me that for him it always a balance between helping too much and too little, and he has to do the best he can with the information he has...he said that once I started to let him see in more, he was able to also see that he needed to help, more..(??) confusing.

So, I think, the more honest and direct you are in therapy, the more the T is able to see what you need in order to grow, and then provide that. If we are too indirect or hiding too mcuh, it is a matter of them just not knowing what is going on for us. I think this is what it is. idk..on the other hand if it is very difficult to talk, they need to accept that without pushing too mcuh..idk..what do you think?


(sorry, Frog if I pushed in here before you even had a chance to reply... ) apologies!
BB

Hi BB and AG,

thanks for your replies. BB, Even though he did say that I didn't purchase a lifetime membership, it was in response to me saying I can't envision leaving therapy ever. He said it gently but also added that you can leave and come back but you can't stay in therapy forever. The funny thing is, now that he said that I can stay as long as I want, I can actually envision feeling secure enought to leave someday but until he actually said that, I couldn't.

Oh AG, Please never hesitate to jump in and post. I really related to you when you said, that every time you saw any improvement I would be terrifed I would be sent away. I feel that all the time. I want to make progress and I really want to change but I am afraid he'll send me packing. And I'm not ready yet. I always just assumed that that came from my mother pushing me away when i was sad or my parents kind of saying, okay you're happy now? now go away. I try so hard not to push my kids away but feel like I do alll the freaking time. I can't stop myself. My 16 year old put her arm around me yesterday and I wanted to cringe. Why???? What's wrong with me????? I so much want them to feel securely attached to me but feel like I fail every single day!

I've been so afraid to open up to him because I didn't want him to see how badly I function. I actually wanted him to think I was making progress. And, as time went on, and I got more comfortable talking to him and opening up, I was afraid that he'd be disappointed in me because I wasn't making progress. Geez ... it's all so complicated. So here I am, opening up and feeling less normal than ever. But you are probably right. And, I did tell him that it's not that I want to get close to him but that I'm letting him get closer to me.



AG

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Wow you've really done a lot of reading. But you didn't find it helpful? How long have you been in therapy? What kind of therapy do you do? Tell me about you, only if you want to ....

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Liese, sorry for comming back late here, - thanks for asking, i would love to answer these questions. Oh- yes, i did fint it helpful in meny meny ways. First of all, it was the most interesting things/literature i have ever read. I was kind of obsesed with theraoy when i started, and wanted to understand EVERYTHING about therpy. And also to learn about those things T was interested in. Maybe to feel more close to him. And og yeah,- to gain some controll, i think. But- it wasnt helpful, in that way- that knowing stuff itself- was never a shelter from feeling all kind of overwheming, bad, anxious feelings regard to therapy-work. I had my battles, and i would have had them, knowing things about them, or not. you`no?

I think the process, can be described in meny ways. I talked alot about these phases with T, (he didnt bring it up first) and i am becomming fan of Meltzners phases. Thats meant for long-term psychotherpy process. Phase 1: Attachment work, ambivalence, seperation anxiety and splitting. 2: Sortening out feelings, projection etc. what comes from me, what comes from T. The "anal- stage".ok- there are 5 stages- but i am not able to explain them in enlish terms, lol. Anyway: I been (Soon) 2 years in therapy. Psychotherapy, 3 sessions pr week. My T is old, very experienced and (of course) the wisest man, i have ever known. I have srtuggled with paternal-/erotic transeference from the very first session. Yeah. It think that summarize it very good. Thanks for asking!

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me I can stay as long as I want, that there is no timetable. I was so happy to hear him say that but am a bit confused by his other statements in the past. Not sure what changed for him. He did tell me that I've made a lot of progress in the last 4 weeks, so was it something I've done that now he's able to offer me that security? Or is it just the way I asked it???? (He's been telling me I need to be more direct) Anyway, it really meant a lot to me that he said that and I think I might be able to trust him more.

quote:

I am so glad your T said that- both that you have done progress the last 4 weeks (congrats!) and that he said there was no time-limit.. oh- sorry he didnt say that before- i would have freaked out the first yrs if T didnt (all the time) asured me that there was noe time-limit... Its alfa and omega i think, for being able to trust and open up, to not have the time-limit. So, 3 years, Liese- thats great! I was wondering how often you go? You`r probably right in track when you suggest that it was your more direct way to ask, that made your T give you what you wanted. Oh- i hav got to learn that lesson, too. I had such a hard time, when i only did one session pr week, and i struggled between the session- but i couldnt bring my self to ask for more. Well, then after months i did. That was a sign of progress! So, T gave me two. Then the same battling all over again, after last vacation, as i wanted 3 sessions pr week. I asked directly- (sort of) and 3 sessions i got. I loved it, and i was very proud that i finally had learned to just ask what i needed and wanted- lol-espescially because it looked like T also liked it, and wanted to reward me for asking, whit "givin" me more sessions. ANYWAYS- THnaks for sharing from your therapy, i doo hope to that you`ll be able to trust him more now. And wow-creds to you for manage to recognize that fear- as not yours, and find your own. You know, thats a very importnant and essential learndom in pahse 2 in therapy (according to Donald Meltzner) that one learns to seperate what comes from others, and what comes form me. "owing" ones feelings, and ones projections. And contra, not owne whats not ours. It might be what you mean, when you talk about having a stronger self. Being more aware of ones own boundaries and feeligns.
oh- me rambling on your thread! have a good day!

Oh Frog, not to worry about rambling. I really enjoyed reading what you have to say. In response to how often I go to therapy, I was going every other week. I liked having him there but not too close. just at the right distance away, if you know what I mean? There, but not too close. Just recently, I felt the need to go more but was terrified, not only to ask but also to get closer. I had to work through my fears and I don't have a regular appointment on the off-week yet but I've been going every week. I was also thinking I'd like to go twice a week but also terrified to get too close yet. (And money) ... So we will see about that.

Haven't heard of Donald Meltzer but I will look him up. Do you think it's odd that it took me 3 years to get through stage 1?

Frog,

What is your first language? Your command of English is excellent. Did you read Meltzer in English?

Liese! I dont think its odd or ubnormal at all, that you are (*if* you are) in phase 1. But, i have obviously no idea which phase your in, these things are very individual determened, and even the phases are going "over in each other" its not a strict clear direction. I am surtently NOT an expert about these phases. Yes, i read Meltzner both in english, but mostly in norwgian. (my T has written a book about these phases) as its complex. Thanks for asking me; my first-language is norwegian. Are yours enligsh? oh- and i am still learning to write english, its easier to read than write, so i end up typing pretty weird posters i think, using wrong words all the time. LOL, thats why i always end up editing my posters, because when i re-read them i find plenty of grammar-wrongs and strange sentences. About your therapy and how often you go... Of course, you only have to go as often or so little as you wish and like to (the need to have some distance is very understandable)..but undobutly the transeference and the process will "speed up" and increase when more often sessions pr week. I hope you will manage to overcome your fear, and ask for two sessions, *if* thats what you end up wanting to have. Its rather normal actually, to start with a fiew sessions, and than end up go more often. Its a good sign actually, not a bad one. My T told me just the other day. I finally understnad why this is. I always thought that "the less sessions, the better coping" and not the opposite...If that makes sense? I understand why you would be terrifed though... all these changes are scary, and even thoug i always wanted more contact (get closer) i too had worries that it would be "too close" and that i would be totally filled up with therapy- stuff 24/7. Good luck with your decitions, no matter what you decide..do what you want and follow your needs.. thei usually "knows best"

Frog ... your posts are very coherent ... unbelievably so ... you express yourself very well. Did you learn Engligh in school?

I'm so glad it's not odd that I've been in phase 1 for so long ... I always think my progress is soooo slow ... ....