I have no problems at all with you! I love your posts, your spirit and your input on the forum. I think you are great!

thanks so much...to be clear, I didn't start this for support...I really started it for another reason...but thank you!

Echo, if you perchance, want to talk to me, I am right here... perhaps it can still be worked out.

BB

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
thanks so much...to be clear, I didn't start this for support...I really started it for another reason...but thank you!

Echo, if you perchance, want to talk to me, I am right here... perhaps it can still be worked out.

BB

Oh I know that BB, but I thought I'd take the opportunity anyway.

Oh, BB, you're so great!

It should be me asking if anyone has a problem!! I'm sure lots of people don't like me right now. So I'll quote BB and say "if you *do* have a problem- by all means, let 'er rip, and I will do my best to reply" !!!!! Honestly.

Oh, good grief...just forget it. you guys are too much!

I was hoping that echo and I could have a reasonable discussion over here, but she'll probably never show up, now. oh well, who knows maybe she'll cahnge her mind. I know that a lot of it wasn't about me, dear draggers. But I feel a bit more stable than some others around here, after receiving so much wonderful support last week from all of you, and thought maybe it would help to "have someone or someplace, to put some anger" Without echo feeling like she has to leave without working it out. There is always hope...that is my position.

Maybe it was a silly idea in retrospect. who am I? oh well, we all make mistakes.

Mac- I think it is great that you posted here, and said what you did...it shows a willingness on your part to stay, and work things out while being honest and facing things...as far as I'm concerned, good for you! From my perspective, the reality seems to be that you allied yourself with someone who hurt a lot of people here with angry-sounding responses, defended herself for that without apology, and then left. Talking about that seems like it would be *really* hard and scary to do. I for one am terrified! I don't want to hurt you, or others, any more than has already happened. I suspect, that if you were to explain/apologize for anything you said that may have been hurtful, you would be forgiven, it would be forgotten, and we could move on as a forum. If not, it will most like *hang over us* for awhile longer. But, I can't know the outcome for sure. What do you think?

,

BB

oops, crossposted with draggers...and what she said is a really good point, too...you have responded caringly on many ocassions. For that matter, so did echo at times., and that's why I wonder what happened.

Thank you, Dragonfly!


Thank you for your response BB.

quote:

I suspect, that if you were to explain/apologize for anything you said that may have been hurtful, you would be forgiven, it would be forgotten, and we could move on as a forum.

A little story about my dad… He will call me a worthless bitch and hit me, then when I’m trying to fend him off I’ll accidently hurt him, so he expects me to come and apologize to him. So I go say I’m sorry, and he says, “Good, I’m glad you see what you did wrong. Now get out of my sight.”

Now of course, that’s a very dramatic story, and not at all what happened here on the forum, but it reminds me of it, because I do feel that I should apologize, but I also think everything I said was appropriate, due to the circumstances, and what I interpreted to be rude or hurtful.

On a side note, I’m also very confused about all the times that people on this forum have been flat our rude and insulting to me, and no one cared/said anything, but now with Echo saying something that was interpreted as rude, everyone is jumping down her throat. If I try to quote anything that has been said to me it was just turn into a huge blaming game and that’s not what I'm interested in.

On Frog’s thread Jones said, “If you look around without resentment you'll see lots of constructive offerings of variant and sometimes quite challenging points of view.” For me, I haven’t found that to be true. Nine out of ten times that I have tried to give my opinion, or disagree with what the majority has said, it is has been shot down and criticized.

I am horrified by your father's treatment of you. You certainly should not apologize under circumstances like that! Although, I can understand why you have to, or you may get hurt more. I am so sorry. Just, let us support you a bit in your pain. People understand. It's ok.

Well, I am very sorry if I have ever done anything to you that hurt you, or made you feel judged or unwelcome, Mac. If I did, it was unintentional, and I hope, if you are thinking specifically of anything that I may have done, you will tell me what, and I can explain myself.

We really DO need to be very gentle with eachother, here, Mac, and restrain ourselves in speech- and be very careful in our wording...because we are dealing with things here that are not ordinary in terms of the level of hurt or damage involved. We really must take care, here, with our statements and input. It is the place for it. When people are suffering very deeply, it is "holy ground." We tread carefully there. We take our shoes off. Sometimes, if our own pain is too deep, it can become much easier to try to deal with other's pain instead of our own, by "telling them what to do" or trying to "fix" them, instead of just, being with them in it, and maybe, offer a few helpful hints, thoughts on the situation, or, your own experience. Trying to definitively "fix" well, this is rarely helpful, can make a person's freedom feel compromised, and will usually result in what happened over there on Frog's thread.
Incidentally, it is what you probably feared I was trying to do on the thread on Christianity that we had awhile back. It wasn't what I was trying to do, but that is the way it is always easily interpreted, due to me thinking in this case, that my beliefs are "correct."
Fulldisclosure: I feel very badly for echo, I think she is hurting a lot. In my own experience of myself, not with the Christian thing, -which is something different and more complicated- but with other things, this has been why I reacted the same way, in the past- before I learned a lot from my T about things like this.

Does that make sense to you? People may lash out and say hurtful things if they are feeling really judged or attacked, or their freedom feels compromised in some way. We have to be careful to try, not to be the "first" one who did that. And if we find out that we were "the first one" then we must apologize. It is better, to apologize to soothe, in my opinion, even if one is not sure they were in the wrong- in certain circumstances. It is always better to be safe, than sorry in a place like this with so many hurting and vulnerable and sensitized people like ourselves, who have been so badly treated. I really wish that echo could have received some care here. And, she did receive some care, in the past, before she seemed to become more and more angry with this forum. Sometimes when we are hurting very, very badly, we push people away, or even, go on the attack. I have done it myself in my life, and I am not at all proud of it- but reconciliation is always possible if both parties able to take *at least some* of the responsibility for their hurtful actions. Does it make sense?
Mac, echo and yourself are both very welcome here. But, ways have to be found to reach caring points again. I want to publicy apologize myself, to echo, for anything I said in such a heated argument, that hurt her or made her feel angry. I don't think I was thinking straight. Especially I want to be clear, that I *do* like her- I worded something very wrongly in my own inappropriate anger. I may not have liked what she said, or how she said it- and I may not agree with her- but I *do* like *her.* It will be ok, Mac.

BB

(((BB))) i see everyone has ignored your rules about posting here on the thread- if they *Dont* have a problem with you- so i`ll gladly join the (rebellions) choir here too (in case its any doubts about that caused by my thread)

Same thing for you to MacLove- i am sorry you have felt ignored here when hurtet, i havent been here long enough i guess, to see all this underlying conflicts- but *in case* you thought about me as one of the candidates whom would be angry at you, i`ll hereby correct that, and hope you know that i have nothing but good regards for you. I can only speak on my behalf, but i have never felt hurtet by you. And i look forwared to get to know you better. Oh, and the history with your father was indeed brutal and i am sorry this is(has?) happended to you..

Frog & BB,

quote:

If I did, it was unintentional, and I hope, if you are thinking specifically of anything that I may have done, you will tell me what, and I can explain myself.

quote:

but *in case* you thought about me as one of the candidates whom would be angry at you, i`ll hereby correct that, and hope you know that i have nothing but good regards for you.

This was the debate I had about posting what I did. I knew that people would apologize, and then I would be in the position to say, “No, it wasn’t you, No it wasn’t you either.” Then what if pretty much everyone posts apologizing and then everyone just figures it out by process of elimination. Or what if the people that I was talking about post, do I say “YES IT WAS YOUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!”

This is confusingggggggggggggggggggggggggg!

quote:

Or what if the people that I was talking about post, do I say “YES IT WAS YOUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!”

Yes, I think you can say that...but carefully. Or if you are feeling especially brave, you could PM the person who said something hurtful, or shot you down, and quietly let them know of your hurt feelings, without attacking them, (very, very difficult to do) because that won't lead to an apology, but just more insults. Or, you could choose to let it go, if it is not something that is causing you significant distress, or stopping your ability to post supportively and not feel really sad about it all the time. You are right, Mac...these things are really confusing, in figuring out what to do. And with backgrounds like ours, no wonder it is hard to sort it...we have added layer of difficulty, in that it will be a doubly fearful task by the way we've been "wired" to respond. I am glad that you seem to have a really supportive and caring T. It really does helping figuring out life and all it's difficulties! I'm so sorry for the way you have been hurt. You did not deserve to be hurt like that by your dad.

BB

Mac, I just wanted to let you know that I edited my post, the one before Froggy's and added a few things to my thoughts there, that I thought might be helpful.

Best,

BB

Thank you so much for the help and advice. I have a lot to think about… not sure what I’m going/not going to do yet.

quote:

I feel very badly for echo, I think she is hurting a lot.

I have to disagree with you in that sense, and I don’t think we can make assumptions about that type of thing. Since Echo isn’t posting here, I won’t say anything else.

Of course, I could be wrong.
And you are very welcome...I am so glad, if it was helpful to you, Mac...

BB

Hi Mac -

Firstly, I'm really sorry to hear the circumstances you live with with your dad. That's totally shit and would feel horrible. I'm also glad that you mention it as something that is in the background for you. I want to be clear that while I really want people (myself included) to be honest, direct and respectful and will say so, I have no interest in bullying or hurting you or *making* you or anyone take responsibility or apologise for stuff. I'm in a situation at the moment where I feel like I'm being forced to take more than my fair share of responsibility for stuff and I believe that when that kind of thing is forced it is both worthless and damaging.

Thank you for being here and for being willing to talk about some of the conflict on the board. Your point of view is valuable.

quote:

On a side note, I’m also very confused about all the times that people on this forum have been flat our rude and insulting to me, and no one cared/said anything, but now with Echo saying something that was interpreted as rude, everyone is jumping down her throat. If I try to quote anything that has been said to me it was just turn into a huge blaming game and that’s not what I'm interested in.

I'm really genuinely sorry and concerned to hear this is your experience of being here - and your repeated experience. I think you have a really admirable toughness and resilience to be here and talking and sharing anyway, given that, but I also think it shouldn't be this way. For myself, I have been unaware of anyone being rude and insulting to you - I don't even know if this might include me - but it's not something I like at all. My policy is that if I see stuff like that happening I say something, unless I think the person concerned or others have it handled.

It might be that you and I have different ideas of what is rude and insulting, or it might be that stuff has gone on that I haven't seen. In any case, I (and I'm pretty sure others) *do* care - don't want you to just accept or put up with that - but would really like to know where the problem is so that you have a better experience here. Maybe what's needed is more communication to bring different points of view on what's happened closer together. Maybe you are owed a flat-out apology or apologies. It *is* tricky to deal with this stuff after the fact, and there are a number of ways to go about it, as BB suggests. If we can help in any way, let us know.

quote:

On Frog’s thread Jones said, “If you look around without resentment you'll see lots of constructive offerings of variant and sometimes quite challenging points of view.” For me, I haven’t found that to be true. Nine out of ten times that I have tried to give my opinion, or disagree with what the majority has said, it is has been shot down and criticized.

I'm sorry for assuming you would see this as I see it - and I'm sorry that your experience is telling you otherwise. When I wrote this, I was looking back at the beginning of Frog's thread, and seeing a number of people expressing concerns about Frog's situation and discussing it with her, asking questions, taking her views and experience into account. That's what I see as the standard here on the board.

If you can say more about the situations where you feel shot down and criticized, maybe we can figure out what's going on. Was that how you felt about what I said to you on Frog's thread? I don't want to say more without knowing, because I don't want to make more assumptions about your experience, but if that's so, then please know I am happy to talk about it and more than willing to try to see your point of view better than I have.

Take care,
Jones

I'm not trying to butt into the conversation here, but I just want to quote this because it is well said, and points out something important for me to learn:

quote:

I want to be clear that while I really want people (myself included) to be honest, direct and respectful and will say so, I have no interest in bullying or hurting you or *making* you or anyone take responsibility or apologise for stuff.

Of course- it is never right to pressure someone into apologizing. Thank you for pointing that out Jones. I'm really sorry if I did that Mac. That's all I wanted to say.

Carry on...bye.

BB

Hi Mac,

quote:

For me, I haven’t found that to be true. Nine out of ten times that I have tried to give my opinion, or disagree with what the majority has said, it is has been shot down and criticized.

I felt really bad that you have felt like you've gotten treated badly and dismissed and that no one has stuck up for you. It sounds like you feel there is a double-standard where some people are defended and others aren't. And I really do agree that would be wrong.

I also understand your hesitation about wanting to point out particular incidents because you didn't want to get into a blame game, so I went back and started reading your posts from the time you started posting. There was only one thread in which I could see you having disagreements and that was fairly recently (I will admit to not reading EVERY post, you have over 300 but I tried to take an even sampling, even spaced over time.) and I'm not seeing it. Would it be possible somehow for you to discuss this without pointing to specific individuals? I really do want to understand what is making you feel this way.

AG

Now I'm really regreting saying anything... mainly because I could bring up stuff, but then I would also be dragging in people who don't even post here anymore.. I dont know if their posts were deleted or not. Ugh I seriously dont want to give anything away as to people who left the forum and the reasons for leaving ya know?? I feel like there's no way to say what was hurtful without dragging a lot of people into it. So seriously right now I'm dropping it!! And I promise not to bring anything up again.

Mac,
I understand your reluctance to speak, especially as it sounds like you don't feel like all the information you have is really yours to share, but please don't feel like you can't bring anything up again. Silencing you is not a solution.

AG

Oh, and I'll say also that I should of used different wording when I said "9 out of 10 times". That made it sound like this has happened 10 or more times, I just meant it as probability and I should have said something like 2/3 of the time or 80% or something like that.

Hey Mac,

I respect the decision to let it be and not pull other people in, particularly if you feel okay that it's past. Please sing out if you feel that kind of insult or rudeness again. Your point of view deserves respect too.

I'm sad about Echo leaving in the way she did for a few reasons, but one of them is that I think that very different points of view can be hugely valuable to a community, and sometimes the ones that go against the grain have the most to offer - though they often tend to come with a bit of conflict attached. This is one of the reasons I've wanted to be very clear and specific about the charge that different ways of seeing are not welcome here. I DO want the kind of place where diverse thoughts are welcome - but as Beebs and Kashley and others have said really beautifully, in a place like this the consciousness of other peoples' sensitivities and their own knowledge of their own narratives has to come first. Anyway, I'm trying to say I hope you don't feel shut down by all this.

Beebs, I just want to make really clear I didn't think you were pressuring Mac into apologising! It just seemed like an open description of one way to repair stuff, to me. I was just talking in response to her description of her dad.

Love,
Jones

quote:

Originally posted by Frog:
(((BB))) i see everyone has ignored your rules about posting here on the thread- if they *Dont* have a problem with you- so i`ll gladly join the (rebellions) choir here too (in case its any doubts about that caused by my thread)

can I ignore the rules too? please forgive the lateness of my post - but really want to say that

BB - you are amazing. Love your authenticy and kindness.

MacLove - I love your posts. You have a lot of great insights and input - and you are so real and encouraging. I'm sorry you have felt rejected so much. I for one, just want to say, you really do rock and I'm glad you are here and keep posting and keep sharing and keep working things out as you need.

just wanted to say that.

please forgive my lateness and how i tend to be off key. I mean every word.