(((MH)))
I can't say it any better than June did. I wholeheartedly agree with everything she said. I'm sorry it hurts so much.
Oh MH... 
I'm really sorry this is going so badly. I hesitate to comment because I feel like I've gone overboard before in my reaction to your situation with your T. But again, I see red flags all over the place here, I see the bind you're in with your attachment for her and I am concerned for you.
I totally agree with June that you did NOT take your T's security away from her, and I think your own comment that you are the messenger, not the enemy, is right on the mark. I think her situation with her cult member client is really spilling over into your therapy in a big way.
I think it is a fair and reasonable boundary for her to decide not to share information with you, and I say that knowing how much it hurts to be up against that boundary in your attachment and love for her. But for her to ask you to promise not to google seems different to her deciding not to share information. It's asking you to hold the boundary, rather than her holding the boundary.
I don't think it's unfair for a T to sometimes ask a client to hold a boundary. There might be situations where that is a really important part of the therapy. I just feel very uncertain about it in this situation, because it seems like it's about her needs, not yours. What if you can't keep your promise? What will it mean for her? This seems like very, very confusing territory to me.
MH, have you considered getting a consult with someone else, just to get another professional perspective? It seems to me like there's a strong possibility that this relationship is causing pain for you that is unnecessary, and not in line with your healing. I would like to know that you had some extra back-up in handling it.
(((((((((MH))))))))))
Jones
I'm really sorry this is going so badly. I hesitate to comment because I feel like I've gone overboard before in my reaction to your situation with your T. But again, I see red flags all over the place here, I see the bind you're in with your attachment for her and I am concerned for you.
I totally agree with June that you did NOT take your T's security away from her, and I think your own comment that you are the messenger, not the enemy, is right on the mark. I think her situation with her cult member client is really spilling over into your therapy in a big way.
I think it is a fair and reasonable boundary for her to decide not to share information with you, and I say that knowing how much it hurts to be up against that boundary in your attachment and love for her.
But for her to ask you to promise not to google seems different to her deciding not to share information. It's asking you to hold the boundary, rather than her holding the boundary. I don't think it's unfair for a T to sometimes ask a client to hold a boundary. There might be situations where that is a really important part of the therapy. I just feel very uncertain about it in this situation, because it seems like it's about her needs, not yours. What if you can't keep your promise? What will it mean for her? This seems like very, very confusing territory to me.
MH, have you considered getting a consult with someone else, just to get another professional perspective? It seems to me like there's a strong possibility that this relationship is causing pain for you that is unnecessary, and not in line with your healing. I would like to know that you had some extra back-up in handling it.
(((((((((MH))))))))))
Jones
quote:I've suffered from intense transference for a P and I gave up on trying to explain it to friends who have never been in therapy.
Thanks for not lecturing and understanding, June. And thanks STRM for agreeing with June.
quote:I think her situation with her cult member client is really spilling over into your therapy in a big way.
I really feel this is true, but I can't convince T of it. This client that is causing so much grief was referred to my T by other T's who didn't have the skills to deal with her and said she was untreatable. My T claims she has had some success with her but also that she is so challenging that she's the only client my T doesn't know how to help for sure. But since no one else around seems capable or willing to take her on, then my T feels like she is her last hope. There is no other T in 3 counties to refer her to that could do a better job, so my T says she will not abandon her. So since my T is probably but not admittedly overwhelmed by cult-client, the rest of her needy clients suffer. I should be sympathetic to her plight, but instead I am feeling more base emotions. I'm sick of competing (that's what it feels like). I mean, the one and only time I ever witnessed my T getting choked up, who was it about? Poor cult-client. Maybe this is a no-win situation.
quote:MH, have you considered getting a consult with someone else, just to get another professional perspective?
This is hard for me to consider. I don't know how it would work. Who would I go to? Where I live there aren't a lot of choices (probably some T's who are much worse) and especially if I want to avoid male T's, unless I am willing to travel 90 minutes, which I really can't fit into my busy schedule if it turned out to be something consistent.
In the states, does anyone know if there's any special kind of legal rights for oversight, supervision, consults, etc. in therapy? Or is that just called T-shopping?
MH, I know TN had some good info on getting a third party consult to help with problematic relationships with Ts - here: Resolving Impasses in Therapeutic Relationships
Gosh, I really feel like you know too much about this client to be comfortable!! I would *hate* to know that much info about another client - it would make me feel like my therapy was about them, or that I was my T's therapist!
I say this stuff in sympathy, MH - I just feel like you are working SO hard in therapy, and you deserve excellent treatment, and I'm not sure you are getting it. Not that that makes it any easier for you to know what to do.
I know it must seem hard to even think about getting another opinion, especially if you have a lot of energy in this relationship. Maybe it's even possible that this relationship is recreating some of the feelings of your past, which would make it extra hard to step back from. There aren't many choices where I live too (though quite possibly more than for you, I don't know) and when I've had to change it's seemed difficult and maybe even futile. I have eventually managed to find someone who seems really good though - perhaps if you did look around, there could be something you haven't noticed yet....
I'm hoping more options open for you though, one way or another.
Take care, MH.
J
quote:This client that is causing so much grief was referred to my T by other T's who didn't have the skills to deal with her and said she was untreatable. My T claims she has had some success with her but also that she is so challenging that she's the only client my T doesn't know how to help for sure. But since no one else around seems capable or willing to take her on, then my T feels like she is her last hope. There is no other T in 3 counties to refer her to that could do a better job, so my T says she will not abandon her. So since my T is probably but not admittedly overwhelmed by cult-client, the rest of her needy clients suffer. I should be sympathetic to her plight, but instead I am feeling more base emotions. I'm sick of competing (that's what it feels like). I mean, the one and only time I ever witnessed my T getting choked up, who was it about? Poor cult-client. Maybe this is a no-win situation.
Gosh, I really feel like you know too much about this client to be comfortable!! I would *hate* to know that much info about another client - it would make me feel like my therapy was about them, or that I was my T's therapist!
I say this stuff in sympathy, MH - I just feel like you are working SO hard in therapy, and you deserve excellent treatment, and I'm not sure you are getting it. Not that that makes it any easier for you to know what to do.
I know it must seem hard to even think about getting another opinion, especially if you have a lot of energy in this relationship. Maybe it's even possible that this relationship is recreating some of the feelings of your past, which would make it extra hard to step back from. There aren't many choices where I live too (though quite possibly more than for you, I don't know) and when I've had to change it's seemed difficult and maybe even futile. I have eventually managed to find someone who seems really good though - perhaps if you did look around, there could be something you haven't noticed yet....
I'm hoping more options open for you though, one way or another.
Take care, MH.
J
MH, I'm sorry, I have to say more. Please feel free to disagree or correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here. It's just that the more I think about this the more concerned I feel for you. Would you feel comfortable if you knew that the other client had this much information about you? Can you know that your T is keeping your information safe? What if you met someone through your job or something, and through conversation you got enough info to recognise that this was the other client? What if she got enough info to recognise you? For that matter, what if you bumped into each other in the session crossover and you realised which client she was because of your T's demeanour? Then that person's confidentiality is totally gone, and possibly yours, too.
I am used to pretty tight boundaries on client info, but even given that's my bias I really don't think that your T should have shared *anywhere* near this much information - it seems really unsafe. And I also wonder if at a subconscious level her looseness on the boundaries about this is sending some very confusing messages about her own boundaries, which are playing out in the googling issue. Not good.
I think it makes a lot of sense that you feel really angry with her. I hope you can find a way forward about this.
J
I am used to pretty tight boundaries on client info, but even given that's my bias I really don't think that your T should have shared *anywhere* near this much information - it seems really unsafe. And I also wonder if at a subconscious level her looseness on the boundaries about this is sending some very confusing messages about her own boundaries, which are playing out in the googling issue. Not good.
I think it makes a lot of sense that you feel really angry with her. I hope you can find a way forward about this.
J
I do not know what cult-client looks like nor her name. I have never run into another client that I could definitively say, Yes, she's the one. And strangely, I am not worried that T is talking about me to other clients for two reasons: 1) I am not the client that is always on her mind, and there's not much interesting to say about me, and 2) Even if she did talk about me, I know she would conceal my identity.
That being said, I do agree that T should not have told me so much information because it has still had a negative effect on me. It hasn't been all at once. A little bit here, another piece of information there... T probably doesn't realize cumulatively how much she has leaked. But its almost always about that client, rarely any other client. Which tells me she's hung up on that client. One day I finally told T I was tired of hearing about her favorite client, and angry that she would put her life in danger for this client but didn't seem nearly so devoted to me. I admitted I was jealous in a juvenile way, feeling like siblings fighting for mommy. I even told T I almost wished cult-client was dead. I know that sounds awful. Since then she has said very little about her to me - nothing for months, really, until this latest mention of receiving death threats.
Jones, you have made some good points for me to consider. I would like to bring them up to T in hopes that she could recognize, admit and change some of her own behavior, but I am afraid I would get nowhere but south doing that. Especially if I tell her, "My forum friends suggested this..." then she immediately discounts it.
That being said, I do agree that T should not have told me so much information because it has still had a negative effect on me. It hasn't been all at once. A little bit here, another piece of information there... T probably doesn't realize cumulatively how much she has leaked. But its almost always about that client, rarely any other client. Which tells me she's hung up on that client. One day I finally told T I was tired of hearing about her favorite client, and angry that she would put her life in danger for this client but didn't seem nearly so devoted to me. I admitted I was jealous in a juvenile way, feeling like siblings fighting for mommy. I even told T I almost wished cult-client was dead. I know that sounds awful.
Since then she has said very little about her to me - nothing for months, really, until this latest mention of receiving death threats. Jones, you have made some good points for me to consider. I would like to bring them up to T in hopes that she could recognize, admit and change some of her own behavior, but I am afraid I would get nowhere but south doing that. Especially if I tell her, "My forum friends suggested this..." then she immediately discounts it.
MH, what if you saw a client come out before you went in, and when you went in you could tell that your T was upset? That's all it would take now to fully break the confidentiality. The point is that this sharing has actually put both you and the other client at risk. Especially in a small community (but actually anywhere), once that confidentiality seal is broken the implications can spread in all kinds of ways that are not predictable now.
And you might not think what you have told your T is of interest, but would you really feel comfortable if you found out that that other client knew, for example, some of the stuff you have shared on forum about your relationship with your T? What if you are being mentioned as 'an example' of this thing or the other thing? What if this is running two ways?
I remain concerned for you. I think it is a bad sign that you are hoping for your T to recognise and change her behaviour - that sounds like unhealthy relationship talk. I feel a lot of compassion for you in this situation and I hate that you are in it. Whatever you do about it you have my support. But I want to seriously encourage you to look at breaking the one-on-one lock that's going on here and get some extra outside professional input, because I don't think you are being well looked after.
I'll shut up now.
Please take care.
Jones
And you might not think what you have told your T is of interest, but would you really feel comfortable if you found out that that other client knew, for example, some of the stuff you have shared on forum about your relationship with your T? What if you are being mentioned as 'an example' of this thing or the other thing? What if this is running two ways?
I remain concerned for you. I think it is a bad sign that you are hoping for your T to recognise and change her behaviour - that sounds like unhealthy relationship talk. I feel a lot of compassion for you in this situation and I hate that you are in it. Whatever you do about it you have my support. But I want to seriously encourage you to look at breaking the one-on-one lock that's going on here and get some extra outside professional input, because I don't think you are being well looked after.
I'll shut up now.
Please take care.
Jones
MH,
I agree with Jones here as well. I really think that your T has crossed the line with the info she has shared. Not only has it infringed on the other clients right to privacy, but it has seriously impacted your therapy and relationship with T. If my T told me that she was getting death threats I would be a complete and total mess. I would be so consumed with worry and fear that I wouldn't be able to do therapy very well. There is no therapeutic value to you in sharing this info and that is a huge red flag.
I'm so sorry that the relationship is so difficult and I agree with Jones that perhaps some outside professional input would be really helpful here.
(((hugs))) Please know that I say all of this with your best interests and safety in mind.
I agree with Jones here as well. I really think that your T has crossed the line with the info she has shared. Not only has it infringed on the other clients right to privacy, but it has seriously impacted your therapy and relationship with T. If my T told me that she was getting death threats I would be a complete and total mess. I would be so consumed with worry and fear that I wouldn't be able to do therapy very well. There is no therapeutic value to you in sharing this info and that is a huge red flag.
I'm so sorry that the relationship is so difficult and I agree with Jones that perhaps some outside professional input would be really helpful here.
(((hugs))) Please know that I say all of this with your best interests and safety in mind.
MH I just want to say that I think it is ridiculous that your T has asked you to stop Googling her. It's public information, its something we all do, it is not a violation of privacy, and it is completely within your right to do so. Its not like you are sneaking into her house while she's at work and crawling into her bed and trying on her underwear. Geesh. She is totally over-reacting. And to refer to it as "hacking"??? How old it your T? I am guessing she is from an older generation that is not familiar with Googling and computers and Facebook based on her comments.
Hey MH,
I don't have much of anything to offer, but your T's complete aversion to you googling her made me think of More Than Fine's T. Her T responded really well when she googled her and found things about about her and her family. I hope MTF doesn't mind me mentioning this, but I think it's a really good example in this case. Her T emphasized that she and her family should know that anything that they put online is fair game for someone to find, even her clients. I don't remember the names of any of the threads, but there were a couple where MTF talked about it.
Big hugs to you...take care.
Kashley
I don't have much of anything to offer, but your T's complete aversion to you googling her made me think of More Than Fine's T. Her T responded really well when she googled her and found things about about her and her family. I hope MTF doesn't mind me mentioning this, but I think it's a really good example in this case. Her T emphasized that she and her family should know that anything that they put online is fair game for someone to find, even her clients. I don't remember the names of any of the threads, but there were a couple where MTF talked about it.
Big hugs to you...take care.
Kashley
Texted to T last night:
MH: i miss you. i promised not to search online cause you asked me not to & i want to please you. but it was my connection when you didnt answer my texts. now i feel more alone. it makes me want to get angry instead so i wont feel a hole in my chest from you not really loving me
T: Please stop with the accusations and projections. i wont answer to it anymore
Texted to T this morning:
MH: most of the time i do not realize i am projecting. i would like u2 b more gentle in ur reminders. ur expecting a lot from me 2 never project. im not perfect or i wouldnt b in therapy.
T: MH. please read your texts that you write to me. they are most of the time not loving or gentle. we both deserve love and respect and that is only what i am going to respond to from here.
MH: i miss you. i promised not to search online cause you asked me not to & i want to please you. but it was my connection when you didnt answer my texts. now i feel more alone. it makes me want to get angry instead so i wont feel a hole in my chest from you not really loving me
T: Please stop with the accusations and projections. i wont answer to it anymore
Texted to T this morning:
MH: most of the time i do not realize i am projecting. i would like u2 b more gentle in ur reminders. ur expecting a lot from me 2 never project. im not perfect or i wouldnt b in therapy.
T: MH. please read your texts that you write to me. they are most of the time not loving or gentle. we both deserve love and respect and that is only what i am going to respond to from here.
If she only wants loving and gentle then she's in the wrong business. I agree with your 2nd text, you are in therapy to learn these things. Honestly, your first text seems to me like you were feeling alone and asking for a connection to your T. Nothing wrong with that.
I still think she has major issues of her own and she needs to deal with them. I'm sorry you are being hurt by her.
I still think she has major issues of her own and she needs to deal with them. I'm sorry you are being hurt by her.
Yikes! Reading that made me cringe. Sounds like T is really laying down the law with you and is being very cold/harsh. How are you feeling, MH?
MH I'm sorry you are hurting from the hole in your chest (know the feeling) and that you feel alone and disconnected from your T. I can totally understand your need to reach out to her at least by texting. From her responses, I'm sorry, but once again I see her making it about her. When she says "we both deserve love and respect" wow it's so blatant. She is concerned with her feelings. And then she says that is the only thing she is going to respond to? She is putting conditions on how you are feeling and getting defensive too. If a T cannot hear appropriately angry feelings from a client then they need another profession because clients get angry at times and feel unloved and frustrated. They need reassurance not condemnation.
If I was a T and you texted the first message to me I would have texted back to you "you don't need to google me to have the connection, MH... I am here and we are connected... the connection is real and you can draw strength from it".
I'll bet that would have made you feel really wonderful.
I'm sorry you are not getting your needs met and I'm glad you wrote to us to tell us about it. I hope you are okay. Let us know. When do you see your T next?
Hugs
TN
If I was a T and you texted the first message to me I would have texted back to you "you don't need to google me to have the connection, MH... I am here and we are connected... the connection is real and you can draw strength from it".
I'll bet that would have made you feel really wonderful.
I'm sorry you are not getting your needs met and I'm glad you wrote to us to tell us about it. I hope you are okay. Let us know. When do you see your T next?
Hugs
TN
i am scheduled to see T next Tuesday. whether i will or not, i dont know.
i am shaking cause i just sent my T three texts saying the same things you have said. i told her she was making this be about her feelings, that she was harming me, and maybe i needed a consult. i dont think she will handle it well at all. maybe i have just lost her for saying such strong things.
i am shaking cause i just sent my T three texts saying the same things you have said. i told her she was making this be about her feelings, that she was harming me, and maybe i needed a consult. i dont think she will handle it well at all. maybe i have just lost her for saying such strong things.
i am not strong enough to go through losing her. i literally dont think i will survive it.
MH,
You will survive it, but it won't be without pain. From everything you've posted about the situation, I really think you are being hurt more by continuing the relationship. If she was a T with your best interest at heart it wouldn't matter that you said those things to her, she would help you work through it. If she gets defensive and puts her feelings into it that is a red flag. It isn't going to be easy, but you can't keep going on the way that it has been. (((hugs)))
You will survive it, but it won't be without pain. From everything you've posted about the situation, I really think you are being hurt more by continuing the relationship. If she was a T with your best interest at heart it wouldn't matter that you said those things to her, she would help you work through it. If she gets defensive and puts her feelings into it that is a red flag. It isn't going to be easy, but you can't keep going on the way that it has been. (((hugs)))
quote:If I was a T and you texted the first message to me I would have texted back to you "you don't need to google me to have the connection, MH... I am here and we are connected... the connection is real and you can draw strength from it".
I'll bet that would have made you feel really wonderful.
TN, i have to admit that she has said those kind of things to me in the past. For some reason, i just cant believe for long periods of time that the connection is real. She surely must be tired of giving me the same message and me not internalizing it.
quote:Originally posted by MH:
i am not strong enough to go through losing her. i literally dont think i will survive it.
I promise you that you can survive that. It won't be easy, but you will survive it and we will be here to help you along the way should it come to a termination with her. And from the things you have written about her, I think you will actually be better off in the long run should you terminate with her.