quote:

-What do I even call this incident? It wasn't rape, because I just laid there, paralyzed, and let it happen. Sure, he was older and I was underage, but it wasn't molestation, because we were in a "consensual" relationship. And statutory rape implies the act was consensual, but it wasn't, except I couldn't say anything. I mean, I had said something in advance, that I didn't want to do anything sexual, but when N started in, I didn't reaffirm it or remind him or insist or do ANYTHING.

You were under age and had made it clear that you did not want sex, but did want non sexual intimacy. So, you were not ready. He kept going. You said nothing. this has left you with very difficult unpleasant feelings around this.

this is normal.

All that you are feeling and going through is normal for what happened to you.

I hope you can talk to both your H and your T about this. They will understand. Often begining to talk helps to reveal more of the things that are underneath. As you know.

Thinking of you.

Yaku,

The mind has a tremendous ability to compartmentalize things. They can sneak out into our conscious at any time when triggered. Perhaps it was triggered with H because you were feeling safe with H initially while cuddling just as you had at one time felt safe with N. Perhaps your mind made a connection between feeling safe with it leading to something that quickly feels unsafe, yet unable to have the words to stop it. My guess is that when you felt safe with N all those years ago up in your bedroom and then it soon felt like a violation of your boundaries, you now equate feeling safe with putting yourself in a vulnerable position where you are prone to being violated.

And as to what to call what happened with N all those years ago....sure, maybe it wasn't rape, but technically in most states, it is rape when a 23 year old has sex with a 16 year old. And even if there hadn't been that age gap, the experience violated your boundaries and it was a sexually traumatic experience for you. In other words, I wouldn't focus on what to call it, but instead focus on how it made you feel and how it has affected you in the years that followed.

Also, I just want to say how glad I am to hear that H was being so supportive of you and how you were feeling in that moment when you had a flashback.

*********
TRIGGER WARNING (talking about rape)
*********
do not read if you aren’t in a good place.



I am very sorry for what happened to you when you were 16, and that you now you have to deal with all these feelings that you never knew you had. I know, its awful.

quote:

It wasn't rape, because I just laid there, paralyzed, and let it happen.

Laying there paralyzed and letting it happen is the exact definition of rape. Not being able to say anything means “no”. The only it would have been consensual is if you had actually said yes.

quote:

Did N have any responsibility here?

Yes he has 100% responsibility for this. He was a grown man with a teenage girl and he should have listened to you. He should have listened to you when you said you weren’t ready, and he shouldn’t have kept going when you clearly weren’t enjoying it (even when you didn’t say “no”).

quote:

Why was I alone in a house with a man at 16 and no one knew? And no one cared? And no one taught me the things I needed to know to protect myself?

I’ve asked myself the same questions. What was a 16 year old girl doing drunk at some older man’s house? Did my parents even wonder where I was?

quote:

-Why do I barely remember the experience (images, sounds, words, feelings), but still know so clearly exactly what happened (like a story)? Why did it take years for me to feel ANYTHING other than ashamed about what happened? If I really was disgusted, afraid, betrayed, etc., why am I only now feeling it when this incident has popped in my head from time to time for years?

This is all completely normal. When I told my T about the most recent time I was rapped he said that I told the story like it was a movie… I walked through every detail with no emotion, like I was telling the story of what happened to someone else. I still didn’t have any feelings in that session until the next session when the shame, disgust, hatred, fear, and this horrible feeling of needing to get out of my skin hit me all at once.

I strongly encourage you to tell your T everything. It will be terrifying and probably bring up even more emotions and flashbacks, but it will hopefully also allow you to release the guilt and blame that you put on yourself for being too weak to defend yourself, which simply isn’t true.

Mac

Yaku ~ oh, I’m so sorry you have been through this and struggling with it now.

I’ve written out a response to some of the questions you have. I’m hesitant to post it, because I don’t know if anything of what I wrote would be helpful for you, or even on track. It may just be a reflection of me and my stuff. Please take everything I write next lightly and with a lot of salt. Or even skip over it if you need. I am triggered by this subject material, but I read anyhow, and I found it helpful for my own self and stuff to write out the response.

***trigger warning for everything written below.***

quote:

What do I even call this incident? It wasn't rape, because I just laid there, paralyzed, and let it happen. Sure, he was older and I was underage, but it wasn't molestation, because we were in a "consensual" relationship... All this time, I thought it was my fault, because I didn't say no. But hadn't we agreed to discuss it before going further? Why didn't we? Did N have any responsibility here? I still feel like it's my fault...honestly.

Actually, statutory rape is where an adult (which the guy was) has sex with someone below the statutory age of consent. It's rape regardless of consent. The laws consider you too young to consent to what N did. You were a teenager, he was an adult, he took advantage of you and invaded you sexually. Even if you had said, “yes, please do this,” you were too young to say yes or no to such intimate sexual contact. Most 23 year old guys understand, no you can’t do that, 16/17 is too young, too vulnerable… (and in the States, it is illegal what he did.)

Even without the fact that you were underage, you did talk and decided that you two would talk about it more before you did that. Then he, at best, let his desires and needs override your needs, and in such an intimate way.

I can’t see any way where this was your fault. I can’t justify what he did. He may not have been trying to violate your boundaries, but he didn’t respect them either – and he did violate them, and didn't respect and keep very important basic boundaries - He violated them, and he wasn’t safe like you needed. Ugh, that feels off as I type that. It feels like I'm saying a child molester didn't intend to molest. Really, what this guy did was just plain wrong, it wasn’t your fault, and your response makes a ton of sense. He is fully responsible for taking advantage and having intimate sexual contact.

I think you have a very reasonable and a normal kind of response to something that shouldn’t have happened. It breaks my heart.

quote:

How in the world do I tell H about it? It feels like such a betrayal that I never told him these details, only that N went further than I wanted and I stopped calling him. I spent years telling H I was a virgin before we had sex and that he was my only partner, but I guess that's not technically true if you include the oral that was done to me and I couldn't say no to. I feel dirty and disgusting and like I've betrayed H.

It really very ok that you told him you were a virgin. It doesn't sound like you were dishonest or secretive, and certainly not in any way with intent to hurt your husband. Maybe the shame you feel about not telling your H is part of the shame of the event - and none of that self blame and judgement you have about you about this is something you deserve. You didn't do anything wrong. It's really ok you haven't told him before. Many people keep stuff like this hidden and don't talk about it until they are facing the end of their life, and not even then. You should be proud of yourself that you are working on how it affects your life now. It's really personal vulnerable stuff. I hope that some day, you do get to a point to talk to your H about it and receive the reassurance and acceptance you deserve about this from him. Be kind and patient with yourself about telling him... it's ok... You gave him some idea of what happened, and that's good. You are not disgusting nor dirty and you have not betrayed him. You were the one betrayed by N. You are not the betrayer.

Talking to your T will hopefully help a lot towards talking with your husband.

quote:

-How do I tell T about it? T is actually the one I feel most safe telling about it, but I don't feel like I can do it across the room from him. And I feel like I've told him how the arrangement makes me feel, but the best he will do is swerve his chair in another direction, so I'm assuming he's unwilling to do more. And if I ask and he rejects me while I'm processing my feelings on safe vs sexualized closeness, it will damage me. I feel like I need him next to me, ready to put a hand on my shoulder or hold my hand and reassure me it's OK. I don't feel like I can even speak about it across that six foot "void." And I don't want to write to him about it, I want to talk! And even having said I need him to spell out boundaries on intimacy talk, he hasn't done it yet, so does he even feel comfortable hearing this?

I think you are doing a good thing to keep trying to talk to your T and your H about this. Even if you only share small amounts at a time, or even write it and maybe read what you wrote? The more you bring painful stuff like this to the surface, the more you have a chance to experience grace and acceptance and safety in new ways. It’s also hard, really super hard to do. I’m inspired and encouraged by your strength to talk and work and process through this.

I don't know that you will ever feel fully comfortable or even ready to talk. Keep asking for what you need and what helps. Maybe there are other ways - experiment around with other things he could do to take off some of the intensity of telling him. Maybe a phone session to start the conversation? If any part of this feels like something you can express, then share what small part you can. Even if you have to explain that you are only saying a small part, and you want to say all of it.

I am figuring out this one myself. There is something that has happened for me where all I can tell my T is:

"ok, so something happened. All I can say is I was in a room and this guy walked in. He locked the door. I remember thinking, hmm, that's weird. Then what he said next, it made me alarmed, because his words and body didn't match. His voice was calm and steady, but his body wasn't, he was moving fast, and I sensed something wasn't ok. Something felt dishonest about how he spoke. And I can't say anything about what happened after that. I can't even say what he said."

When I said this to my T just two weeks ago, I thought all I would be able to say was about the door being locked. Once I started talking, I was able to say more. I still ran up against "the wall" (so I call it) VERY quickly. When I did, I was mad, and even told my T I was mad, for not being able to say more. I told her how I want to say the horrible thing that happened that I feel awful shame over - but I can't. So I said the two things above about the door being locked and his tone of voice not matching his body language.

I'm not even telling her something she is finding out for the first time and it's still this hard for me. My T knows what happened in a sentenace, a very broad generalization, from the front page of a court document. So I am not even really admitting anything to her, and I still struggle to say it. She knows ALL KINDS of stuff about me, but this is the THING, the thing I can't talk about... not yet... Through time, I have learned that the more I do share, the easier it gets and the more healing comes. So I keep trying, even with the THING. (ugh, I wish it was easier!)

I feel so conflicted about it because really, I just want to whole mess to go away... but yet I know that healing from it and getting the freedom I long from it involves facing it... I want to be able to SAY all of it too. I can't. So I said what I could. It was really helpful. My T didn't really understand, she didn't have context to understand what I was describing in any specific way. She couldn't help me sort out my shame about the worst of what happened when I couldn't speak to it - but yet she could help me heal anyhow. She was steady, she listened, she didn't push, she asked what would help and let me back up when I needed. The next time I went in, I was able to say a little more. I also felt like just experiencing some acceptance for not even being able to talk but to share that small confusing about - that helped me have compassion for myself in my battle to talk. My T was so compassionate about it. She longs for me to be able to talk and share it clearly and help me with it, but yet she accepts me as I am.

My T has learned that when something is hard, I look down away (thank goodness for the great view out the window in her office - 'cause I spend a lot of time looking out there rather than ever at her). You are not alone in feeling like that it helps to talk to be present in person, and yet stuggles to also not feel like things are too close to share vulnerable stuff. I'm glad your T was willing to change his position somewhat to at least turn away from you. Maybe your T and you can try other things - find something that works for both of you - and not just with the goal of being able to talk but also because maybe in the process, he will learn more about you and what helps...? It does take time, ugh... I wish it didn't... for both our sake...

quote:

Why do I barely remember the experience (images, sounds, words, feelings), but still know so clearly exactly what happened (like a story)? Why did it take years for me to feel ANYTHING other than ashamed about what happened? If I really was disgusted, afraid, betrayed, etc., why am I only now feeling it when this incident has popped in my head from time to time for years?

Trauma gets stored into our brains in different ways than everyday events. Intense emotional experiences of any kind get stored in different ways in our brain than things like, say, going to the grocery store. Sometimes it means the cognitive story is remembered and accessed easily, while the rest isn’t. I have been through things that I can put into words and have very little feelings about, things where I can physically remember what happened, but not remember any of the sounds, and things I can remember very well, but can’t put into a cognitive story even in my own head very well. It has taken a long time for the different things to connect. The fact that you were dissociative while it happened means you experienced the event as traumatic, overwhelming, too much to take in. You pushed out all those feelings – but they are still there. So now, later on, when you are only thinking of it, it’s a little safer for those feelings to come back up, because you are not trying to push it all away. (I may not be explaining this well at all. Hopefully someone else can put it into words better than I.) It’s really common in PTSD for things to come up again just like you describe, after a length of time and with new events (like with your husband).

Shame sometimes pushes away other feelings. Shame can be a way to cope with the pain, betrayal, and loss. If you and I are to blame for the bad horrible things that happened that we didn’t want, then we don’t have to wrestle with the hard reality that it wasn’t our fault. If we are all bad, then the things that others do to us will be dependent on if we are good or not. The reality is, it’s just not that way. People can and have done wrong things to us that we didn’t deserve.

ok, now that I have rambled on myself here, I will just stop... My heart goes out to your for what you are walking through and sorting out.

~jane

*edited to take out a few personal details. just me and my stuff.*

Sadly, LG, Mac, Jane...thank you for all the support and kindness. I hope I can help H to understand. He means well, but he doesn't have patience for me when I get overwhelmed. If I can talk about it, perhaps he will have more patience with my intimacy struggles too.

quote:

Thankfully N is the kind of guy that when you did tell him you never wanted to see him again, he didn’t invade any more.

You know, Jane, it didn't occur to me until you said that...he didn't actually leave me alone. A month or two later, he called and asked me to go to a concert (one I had no interest in going to). I said, "No thank you," but he pushed and said he had two tickets and he couldn't find anyone who would go with him (boo-hoo, poor N). I asked why he had bought two tickets and he said that he had plans to go with a girl from work, but she changed her mind. I told him to ask others, but he kept saying everyone said no, nobody likes him. I finally gave in and said to keep trying and I would be his backup plan...N stopped looking. Nothing happened. He tried to sit a little close, but other than that, he dropped me off and when I didn't invite him over he left. I never really thought anything of it until you mentioned it.

Also, I found out later that he had wanted to date my other older sister (not the oldest one) and she had rejected him repeatedly. He practically stalked her and yelled at her when she lost her virginity to someone else. Then, he settled for me. Ugh, I had forgotten what an creepy guy N was. He acted like, "Woe is me. I'm dorky and anti-social and no one will love me." I feel really gross right now. I just had a shower and I feel like I need another one, in boiling water, to get this feeling off of me.

Yaku,

Running out to dinner with the kids and didn't get to read all the replies but am wondering if anyone mentioned sexual assault? It's defintely traumatic and I think I read they are expanding tramautic events to include not only rape but sexual assault.

I guess I could call it that, but I almost feel like I invited it to happen by being alone in my room without supervision with an adult male who I know wanted sex (even though I told him I did not).

Also, just to clarify, because it could probably be confusing on why my sisters weren't around:

My family is really weird. I am my father's only child, but my mom has six kids (she has had at least dozens of boyfriends/fiances/husbands over my life).

Father 1: Oldest sister (36) and 2nd oldest (34).
Father 2: Me (30)
Father 3: Younger sisters (20, almost 19), though mom says they might have different dads and hasn't told them.
Father 4: Baby brother (almost 14).

My oldest sister didn't live there, because she was 21-22 and already had my niece. My second older sister split her time between our mom's and her aunt's house, where she was staying while I dated N. Father 4 is the one who came home when stuff was happening and so nothing went further. My older sisters figured out we were dating when they saw us kiss once, but by the time they told me, we had already broken up.

((((yaku))))

I had the impression that you just told N to go away and he did, and it surprised me that he would just go away. When I checked my post for any forum code errors when I posted it, I thought wait, hmm, something feels like he wouldn't be "that kind of guy" (what was *I* thinking?). It just didn't seem like someone would date a minor, then assualt you, and then just go away... so then I edited that out just as you posted and before I read what you wrote. (sorry.) If it helped you remember what a creep he was, and that helps you not blame yourself, then in that way... I'm glad I triggered those memories in a way. I'm very sad to find out he didn't just go away though... Actually, I feel sick about him and what he did to you. He belongs in prison. grr. (it's ok I feel what I do)

Again, it wasn't your fault or anything about you. He doesn't even take no for an answer! Ugh, he yelled at your sister who rejected him anyhow? And for losing her virginity? And then he pushed to take yours?! I thought maybe he is a *$*@#)_$ who criminally hurt you badly. But the more you say, the more I keep thinking he's a predator.... He's a 23 year old who "dated" a 16 year old. He's a sicko.

I think you did what you did to get through it in the best way you could.

So sorry you feel so icky remembering him. I have felt like I can't get clean before when remembering something related to a sexual assault/rape. I just want to remind you of these true things: you are not disgusting. What he did was beyond disgusting, but you are not disgusting. What he did was dirty. YOU are not dirty. You are beautiful. You are worth being cherished and loved and adored.

~jane

quote:

I had the impression that you just told N to go away and he did, and it surprised me that he would just go away.

To be honest, I am humiliated. I didn't even tell him to go away. I just avoided him. I didn't even explain why. I don't even know if I was thinking in my head, "This guy did a bad thing to me." I just completely lost interest in being around him after that. I didn't even link it to what happened until much later. I just lost interest and ignored his calls and pages and the one time he did get through and asked if it was over, I just said, "Yeah, it is." I don't even know exactly what I said. I was a complete chicken, a coward. I didn't assert myself, didn't defend or stand up for myself...I never even said a word about it (other than about my own shame of "going further" than I would have liked and I was ready for) until today. It is nearly half my lifetime ago and I have not done a single thing about it until today!!!

Thank you, though, for telling me I am not dirty. It's hard for me to look back at that "girl" and not judge her as the woman I am now. And even so, I've spent years of not telling H I was not interested at times he wanted sex and I did not.


And, not to even mention, my first kiss was when I was 12 and was forced on me by an 18-year-old who hit on me and got my phone number before I found out how old he was. And then he tried to walk me home and stuck his hand in my back pocket and I lied and went to a friend's house so he wouldn't know where I lived and then he kept calling my house and I ignored him away too. And I later found out he was a drug dealer at the high school and had 8th graders spying on me. And I didn't learn my lesson. I let it happen again, but worse. And then I ended up with H, who means well, but HAS actually gone on when I said no and he was asleep and I didn't know it at the time. And I never did anything about that either. I just keep letting this $#!+ happen and I don't know how I got to be this way. I'm so angry at myself right now. Sorry if none of this makes sense, I usually write and edit, but I am just spitting all this out right now, because it feels like bile in my throat and I want it out of me!!!

quote:

To be honest, I am humiliated. I didn't even tell him to go away. I just avoided him. I didn't even explain why. I don't even know if I was thinking in my head, "This guy did a bad thing to me." I just completely lost interest in being around him after that. I didn't even link it to what happened until much later... I was a complete chicken, a coward. I didn't assert myself, didn't defend or stand up for myself...

You were not a chicken, not a coward. You did the best you could to survive through it and you did the best you could to cope with the memory of it. You have NOTHING to feel humilated about.

I actually think you did defend yourself. We respond to trauma by (as my T says) "fight flight freeze or fawn." ALL of those are defense mechanisms used to survive trauma and defend against it from hurting us. They are good defense mechanisms. We are wired to have them to protect ourselves. They become less helpful defense mechanisms when we don't want or need to use them anymore in situations that are safer.

"Fight" doesn't always work. Saying no, "fighting" in that way, it didn't work with this guy. When he couldn't get your sister, he screamed at her, and came after you. He found someone more vulnerable. He is a predator. Saying no to people in healthy relationships works. Saying no predators doesn't follow the same outcomes.

In the moment and later on, you clearly used defense mechanisms to protect you. Like flight freezing (dissociating, not speaking, avoiding).

I'm so sorry you feel humilated.


*edited to take out a personal detail*

Thanks, Jane. STILL TRIGGERING STUFF BELOW...I should keep warning I guess.

I'm sorry if I seem so resistant to your kindness. I guess I'm just now kind of wrapping my head around how all these things are connected...

My first kiss being a guy who pushed me into a fence and than grabbed my @$$ all the way home and called me and had 8th graders nagging me at assemblies and around school, "Oh, you crossed L. That's not good. He's a scary guy."

I had a normal "first boyfriend" experience in 8th grade that lasted a couple of months. Then nobody until N, and obviously that situation was MUCH worse than I have ever given any credit to.

Then I became a Christian and dated a guy who was nice, but when we decided to turn down the intensity, started getting mopey and controlling and then broke it off.

Then H, who seduced me, but I actually wanted to be with. But, over and over for years, he woke me up touching me without my permission and I never thought anything was wrong with that. And there was a time I calmly said "No, we need to stop," over and over and he was still sleeping (I didn't know) and he didn't listen. He just finished and rolled over and was sleeping again while I was laying there thinking WTF happened? And any time he wanted sex and I did not during our marriage, I just couldn't say, "No." Even when I did decline, I would feel so guilty about it that I would change my mind. And that isn't H's fault that I felt that is the only way he would continue to value me. And when the incident with my sisters happened and he rushed me back into bed and back into sex, I couldn't say, "No," and he didn't understand that asking over and over was making me say, "Yes." And when the flashbacks started and he would ask, he didn't get how hard it was for me to push him away, and so I've put myself through at least four waking instances of experiencing this...and I can't even say if he asked tonight that I would be able to tell him I don't want to.

Here I was just thinking, "Wow this crappy thing happened to me," but in actuality, it's a longstanding pattern that I'm still in now and I'm not doing anything about it. And I'm not sure how long it will take for me to stop feeling ashamed and disgusted with myself. And I want to have a reason for how I could feel like it was normal to give up my body like that from such a young age. And I'm wondering if I've dissociated even more childhood BS than I thought or if I was always just this weak, because I wasn't taught boundaries.

DF - Crossposted. Thanks for the support!

I think I will need to find out for sure if T is up for discussing this stuff. Obviously, there is a lot more going on with me than I have been really "getting."

And it just keeps coming. The PE teacher/basketball coach who pushed me and pinned down on a table in front of a gym full of 7th graders, because I stole his pencil. And no one did anything. And no one said anything. And neither did I. He apologized and I just let it go as some weird incident. Is it normal for someone to be so passive? I was always taller and stronger, physically, than other kids...but obviously so emotionally weak. I must have had a FRAGILE sign stamped on my forehead that told people they could take advantage of me so easily.

Yaku,

From what you describe, yes it is normal for someone to be so passive. There was a lot going on in your life that you had no control over. We can view passivity on the bell curve, as far as a personality trait is concerned. So, it's possible that in general you are more passive than average. On the other hand, what you describe is a learned helpessness instead of passivity. That's a different story entirely.

Don't know much about that one...could you elaborate, Liese?

Blah, sorry to be replying on my own thread over and over. Makes me feel like I'm being "desperate for attention."

Talked to H a little bit more about it tonight. I basically got out my whole theory about how this stuff is affecting our intimacy and how I think it's related to what happened in my session with T Tuesday night. I also discussed wanting to talk about it with T, but not knowing how much to talk about intimacy stuff with him (even though he KNOWS almost all our stuff through H, since H sees him for individual sessions too). I couldn't be explicit about what happened with H yet, but he seems to have inferred it was serious. H also felt horrible, because how I described unwanted sexual contact ruining my idea of safe closeness/non-sexual intimacy reminds him that his sexsomnia probably did that to my sister. Not my intention at all with the conversation, and I think about that too, so I should have been more sensitive and considered before bringing it up. One thing really did piss me off though. When I was first saying how I want to talk to T about it, H started saying, "Well, you probably shouldn't, because as a T he is mandated to report that stuff and I don't think it's outside of the statute of limitations." Um, hello? You don't even know N and you're worried about HIM rather than your wife working through this scary stuff? Also, it's not like I need to give his full name and address to discuss it. I guess he has sympathy for the guy or something. Granted, N is FB friends with my sister and a bunch of her high school friends and I saw on a picture that he had gotten married. I'm really not out to ruin this guy's life. But, I was walking through a store today to buy a cake for a friend's birthday and some guy was looking at me funny and I felt like I was under attack. I'm so activated on this stuff...I need to process it with T! And then I'm wondering if T is OK with that...really...because when I brought up the flashback stuff, I specifically said, "And I don't know if I should talk about it." And T said, "Because you don't feel comfortable?" And I said, "No, because I don't know where the boundaries are of discussing that kind of stuff here and unless they are spelled out it will be too intimidating to start and worry about crossing a line." T has yet to take the opportunity to yay or nay me on those conversations or tell me which kind of stuff is OK and which is not. His bio says he has specialties/experience in male sexuality issues, anger management and deep childhood trauma, so I have to imagine he's heard it all before. However, I have noticed that most of the clients he works with seem to either be couples or men...I know as a T he should be willing/able to deal with any of this stuff, but if that's the case, why won't he just spell it out for me? Trying to work up the nerve to ask him to at least sit on the same side of the room as me. I told that to H too and at least he doesn't judge me about that...

I need to get this stuff off my mind somehow. I don't see T again for three whole days and I can't go around on edge that whole time.

I am skim reading a bit becos of the triggering issue for me, as I have a lot on , but trying to be of help too.

I know that I feel LITTLE when with older men harassing me, i immediately go into little child mode. So that is how they get away with it as I am too little and too wanting them to be nice to me to shout or kick and when they are not nice to me I am just too hurt and try and work out what I have done wrong to cause them to be awful to me.

Complicated but true.

Does it ring any bells in you that you feel quite little and not grown up really when these things are happening to you?

When i am in adult mode I can tell people to take a running jump - I am very assertive. But older male figures just reduce me to child mode really quickly and my child is confused and frighteed and wanting affection and to be cuddled and loved.

Yes, Sadly. And T has been making me feel little in the good, cared for way. But even though he is safe, H's condition means being little and compliant is a threat. So, therapy has become a very threatening process and I don't know how to tell T that I need so much reassurance from him to help me understand I am safe and there is no real threat. I want him right by my side. But I fear that my desire for safe closeness will be rejected...and there is no one else I can ask for it from yet. I feel so empty. I had a dream I told T everything and I couldn't stop throwing up and dry heaving and now I'm scared if I do tell him, I will be sick in his office or start crying (which I never do in front of anyone but H) and T will just watch me and won't comfort me and it will be too lonely and scared and "little" to manage it.

Yaku ~ I'm so glad you started talking with your H about it. You are doing a really good job talking about it here and taking steps to work through it. Keep talking, keep sharing. I know how terribly scary it is to tell your T. It is worth the risk of feeling sick. Stats say 1 in 4 women have goine through a sexual assualt. It is very easy to feel so alone in this, but I bet your T has dealt with this kind of stuff before and heard it from other clients too. (This might be the one case where the reminder that our T's have other clients helps? It helped me when my T told me that she has had lots of clients tell her about being sexually assualted, and lots of clients who have really struggled to talk about it decades later.) Just keep taking it one step at a time. Be as kind to you as you can. You are doing a really good job with all of this.
~ jane

Thanks, Jane! And everyone. I'm so tired. I would just like to have one whole week where things feel like they are getting better or easier, instead of worse and harder. I was regretting ever having started therapy earlier today. How could I not have felt anything about these horrible things that happened? But at the same time...I wish I could feel nothing right now.

I just wanted to thank you all again for your responses. I was looking around the web for ideas on how to talk to T about this. I found a lot of good, supportive stuff, but also a disturbing number of sites (even medical sites) which directly state something like what happened to me was my responsibility to say and show non-consent. All of your words are helping me not spiral back into deep shame about my non-action. I am fighting to hold onto the idea that it was not my fault and that something wrong was done to me and I did not do this to myself. So, I am reading back over your posts for support and finding them really helpful. I really want to find a way to talk to T about this Tuesday...

Waiting in "virtual line" now. Have been #7 for about 15 minutes...that makes me very sad that there are so many others waiting to talk (and others already talking) about these sorts of horrible things happening to them.

Thanks. Not sure I'm up for it. I'm getting nauseous right now just thinking about it. I don't know why it's so different than posting on here. H walked in and I almost killed it. He wants to spend time with me and I don't even want to be around him right now. If I could go hide in a very small, dark place and be alone, I would. 5 to go now...I don't even know how to start. I'm afraid they will tell me it was my fault. I know they are trained not to and I am being stupid, but it feels like it was my fault. Or they will just say, "Well, that's unfortunate, but not rape or assault, so we're not the right resource."

And just earlier today, I was realizing that the technical definitions of rape I was reading online mean I've been assaulted by H dozens of times because of his sexsomnia, because I've done the whole, freezing, "Just let him get it over with," thing with him so many times too. How am I just now figuring out there is something wrong with my WHOLE sex life?

(((((DF))))) Thank you so much for your encouragement. I feel like I could be happy never having or even thinking about sex ever again. Somehow, I don't think H would be up for that, though. I'm sure it must get better, but with his condition re-traumatizing me and...

TRIGGERING, POSSIBLY
the only way I can relate to him sexually for a long time is when I am woken up by him and have some sort of sick wanting to be violated feeling that I have no idea where it comes from...I don't know how long it will take for me to be "safe" with that experience. So, in the meantime, I will basically violate myself for him, so his needs can be met. I'm not sure what else to do. He loves me and is understanding to a degree, but not very patient at all.

2 in line.

TRIGGERS?

H actually started with T first (one of his specialties is male sexuality issues). Part of it is a sleep condition. Part of it is probably a sex addiction as well. H has struggled with pornography since his teens (he was exposed to hardcore stuff at like 10). We think that's why his parasomnia manifests sexually instead of other people who sleep-eat or sleep-drive, etc. His CPAP has decreased the instances, but therapy hasn't seemed to make any difference for the last year, which bums H out. Everytime we have a nighttime experience, I have to check if he remembers all of it and at least 75% of the time, he is missing at least a few minutes after I have woken up, but before he has any memory.

I think it's not meant to be tonight. H will be coming to bed in the next 15-30 minutes and there are still 2 in line in front of me. By the time we get started, he will come in and I will freak out.

Some people are only aroused from their deep (stage 3) sleep by physical contact. Some others with this condition masturbate in their sleep. He wouldn't know, because he most likely wouldn't remember. If I ignore him long enough and don't participate, he...

TRIGGERS
fondles me excessively for several minutes and then does not remember it the next morning. I have tried it at least three times, just ignoring it, and it eventually stops. If I aggressively reject him, he wakes. If I participate, he wakes. He has only finished twice without waking (once I said stop and he didn't listen, and we didn't talk about it until after he was diagnosed, once I thought he had been awake, but he had no memory at all).

Talking to someone now and hoping H doesn't come in. Will talk to T on Tuesday. He is way too busy to really take calls if they aren't absolute emergencies. Still trying to figure out if he really is "OK" dealing with female intimacy issues. I know he SHOULD be, but I need him to explicitly say it for me to feel safe.

Their suggestions...

-Give myself time.

-Send an email to T (which I can't do until he establishes boundaries and even so, I WANT to be able to talk).

Go sleep elsewhere (not an option with my sister and nephew camping in my living room).


Hrm, I actually think you guys are far better at this than they are!!! It makes me appreciate you all the more.

Yaku,

Just caught up with this thread and my heart goes out to you. Sorry I never got back to you about the learned helplessness stuff. I was actually thinking now that it might be some sort of stockholm syndrome, where you identify with your captor. I don't know. I don't have a good handle on all this stuff myself.

the learned helplessness is a theory that when we are exposed to something bad and we don't have any control over it, we learn to tolerate it. So even if in the future, we are in the same situation but this time we would be able to escape, we won't even try because in the past we learned it was futile to try. I guess I was thinking about your childhood and all the neglect and abuse and if being abused is just something you learned to tolerate, then why would you suddently assert yourself with that guy? You never learned how to and don't know how to.

I am so sorry about all the difficulty you are facing now. Does it bother you that H sees T? Does that create any issues for you?

I'm sorry I don't have advice to offer, Yaku but I just wanted to say that I care and I really feel for your situation. I can only imagine how difficult it is to both want to be supportive and understanding of your husband's condition, but also feel the desire to take care of yourself and protect yourself.

Liese - Thanks for the info. No, it doesn't bother me that T sees H. I think, because I struggle to really identify how I feel about this stuff, it actually helps, because T will get more direct information from H (who just lays it all on the line). If we had to see T together, I would not feel safe about that. T is my safe place, where I won't worry about being judged, but H is not that way. I tend to be vague with T (with stuff that has to do with me and intimacy) and then wait for him to indicate he is willing to hear more.

LG - Thank you for stopping in to say you care. I really appreciate it!!!


So, I talked to H again last night. He wanted to spend time together, but I was trying to go on that RAINN site, so I asked him if I could have time to myself to process my feelings (he didn't know I was chatting with someone about it...I thought he would be angry). So, when he came to bed, I asked if he wanted to talk, and he was basically like, "You missed your chance. I volunteered to spend time with you [as if he had done it for MY benefit and not because he wanted time with me] and you said you wanted to be alone."

So, I said, "OK, I wasn't saying I'm upset or need to talk, but I do WANT to be open with you about this stuff. Do you want me to talk to you about it?"

And he said something like, "If you want to talk about it, I don't mind."

And I said, "I want to be able to talk to you about it, but do you even care about what happened? I don't want to tell you if you don't WANT to hear about it. If it doesn't matter..." Basically, I was trying to say that it's not something I could talk about if he was going to respond with apathy or (like the other day) concern for how N felt.

He said, "If it would help you practice talking about it, I don't mind. It doesn't matter to me. It's not going to change how I think or feel about you."

So, then I said, "Nevermind. I don't want to talk about it unless you actually want to hear it. Do you care to?"

He said something like, "No, I don't really care one way or the other. But, I am very frustrated that it's interfering with our intimacy."

And I expressed that I was also frustrated with that, but that I couldn't help how it was making me feel.

So he asked, "Does that mean we're going to go back to sleeping in separate beds?"

And I said, "No, that wasn't my intention."

Then he said, "So, how long am I going without sex THIS time?"

I said, "I really don't know, honey. It's not like I'm enjoying withholding it from you or anything. Honestly, this whole thing is NOT ABOUT YOU!" What I meant was, "Jesus, H, have some sympathy that I am suffering here and it's not all about you getting laid." But, I think he heard it as, "Nothing you do or have done is what is causing this feeling." which isn't true, because he does pressure me for sex and feel like his nonsexual affection "pays for" sex and has done many things with his condition that I am just now realizing I will probably start to have these same feelings about.

And then H said, "So, why am *I* the one being punished?"

I started crying angry and said, "Do you think I LIKE feeling like my husband isn't my husband? Feeling assaulted?" Then I stopped crying, numbed up and said, "Nevermind. If you want sex, I'll give you sex."

He rolled over and fell asleep in like five minutes and I was up for a couple of hours feeling really hurt and confused. Sometimes H is such an @$$hole. He snuggled me this morning a bit and I wanted to push him away, but I didn't of course. I just laid there and let him do it, because I obviously haven't changed one bit...

Yaku,

You are really stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am lucky in that my H never had a huge sex drive and now that we are much older than you are, he has learned to deal with it. On the other hand, my H was never a giving partner. So, I don't feel guilty at all because it's not like he ever said, how can I make you happy?

Anyway, so what I'm trying to say is, I at least have the space to work out my issues now whereas you don't. So here's my suggestion: can you and your H agree to a no-sex timeframe in order to give you a chance to work through your stuff???? Say like 3 or 6 months? It might not only be good for you but for H too from what you say. Can you talk to t about it? Would that make you feel more safe???

Hi Yaku!

hmmm, i just have one thought that came up for me... it might be totally impossible or off the mark...

What about maybe the possiblity of you and your H talking together with your T about how you can both work together to help each other's issues. It would be so helpful for your H to ocme to some understanding of how his behavior feels to you - both because it's insensitive now, and because of your past, it's extra hurtful. If he wants sex and intimacy with you, that involves working through stuff like that, or it's not really going to happen in a way that is good for both of you. He's being a little selfish and he needs to deal with how he is pressuring you and also the sexinsomina, which sound slike it would be something that at least for me, would add to making it harder to experince safe sexual touch and safe non-sexual touch when you are having to deal with asleep unwanted (and thus not so safe) sexual touch.

I dunno... just an idea.

I really hope you do talk to your T and ask him about how he deals with female intimacy issues. He seems comfortable with issues guys have in that relam, so I am hopeful that he would be really super helpful with you, especially since he knows and understand your husband's stuff too firsthand.

Most of all, I think you are working through this and sorting it all out very courageously and wonderfully. I know it is a painful process right now, terribly so, but it is really neat to see how you are really sticking with it and keep working to sort it out. I hope things will shift, and soon, so that your husband doesn't resond with just indifferent apathy (that would make me withdrawl and pull away too) but understanding and compassion. Keep working at it...

thinking of you and praying for you,
~jd

Hi all,

Thanks for the input. I do know that H is being inappropriate. There are several issues at work. First is, sex is an area he struggles in. Second, I have spent our whole relationship just giving him what he wants when I'm not into it (even sometimes when it felt "wrong" but I didn't know why) without complaining. Third is that he actually DOES want me to be totally into it and if I express that I am not, but offer to do it anyway, he gets upset. So, he's not a complete jack@$$, but he does have high needs in that area. When the incident happened with my sisters, he asked and asked and I ended up back in intimacy in less than two months...when I could have easily waited six or more. I don't want to share my counseling time with H for sure! It's my safe place. Maybe once I am a little less freaked out.

I texted with T about this issue (just sexuality related events in my past). I told him I need to know if I'm allowed to talk about it and what the boundaries are. He texted back something that sounded ambiguous to me, like it was OK to talk about it, or I could write if it felt safer, and I did not have to give detail for God to heal me. So, then I started wondering if this meant he does not want me to give details or if I should feel comfortable to not if it's too hard. So T wrote back:
"In this case, I am suggesting you might only share things that are necessary to identify the concerns you have...due to the intimate nature of the subject (not suggesting you have ever done otherwise but just as a rule of thumb) i.e. on a "need to know basis so to speak...By the way I am only referring to explicit sexual thoughts...you can speak in slightly more general terms to protect your modesty."

So then I was feeling like, "T does not want to hear this. He wants me to hide stuff and I won't be allowed to 'get it out' of me."

So, of course, I freaked out and sent him a long text about how he was confusing me and now I felt like I had to drop it. Like I was having to play a guessing game about what's OK to say. Then I was blunt and let him know it involves things that may fall under sexual assault that happened before my relationship with H. I also let him know that I'm OK drawing my own line for myself of what I feel comfortable with, but I need to know where his line is so I don't cross it. Then T asked for clarification on a scheduling question and ignored the other stuff, so I replied to his scheduling inquiry and apologized for bringing up the other stuff in text, which was obviously not the way to go...

Now I am feeling dirty and nauseous and sick and wondering if I can talk to T about any of this. Obviously he does have SOME boundaries regarding this topic, but I don't know what they are and that makes it not safe to discuss at all. I want to cancel tomorrow night's appointment, but now I feel like I HAVE to go.

I told him that it probably wasn't his intention and I was most likely projecting, and that I needed a clear answer from him. But I was so upset when I wrote it, it may have come across angry...and he ignored it. But, I also apologized if it came across angry and let him know that I was trying to be direct/understood and also very sensitive right now. I hope he gets back to me today, so I can decide whether to write it or try to speak it...I don't want to feel rejected by T right now. He was my safest bet in being able to verbalize this stuff. I had specifically told him I WANT to talk about it and I was looking to him for what he boundaries/rules were...so I don't know why he is misunderstanding me if that is the case. I don't know why I am so upset by this. I guess I just feel like I have been hiding it (even from myself) for years, not even getting that this thing that happened is SO HORRIBLE and now he wants me to hide it more when I just want to get rid of it and have someone comfort me, in person. Someone who doesn't want sex from me like H does.


TRIGGERING: One thing I just realized this morning that made me sick is that the same conversation (which was actually an online chat, because N and I did phone and computer comm when we weren't together) where I told him I was not ready for sex at all, I also told him the whole story about the forced kissing and fondling of my butt when I was 12 and how I didn't do anything about it. N knew I had been taken advantage of before. I practically advertised, "Hey, you can get away with rape here!!!" And I can't even call it that, but he KNEW how vulnerable I was and didn't take the time to ask if what he was doing was OK. Then, I wonder, since I barely remember anything except the fact that it happened if maybe he did do everything right and I just forgot it somehow? And maybe that's why I feel ashamed? Because it WAS my fault and I just don't remember it right? Because, I can't trust my memory if all it is is a narrative of what happened without any "evidence," right? I'm SO ANGRY AT MYSELF!!!

The way he worded things made me feel like I should keep things vague, like "an exboyfriend touched me and I froze." I don't know if I definitely want to say exactly what happened, but I don't want to worry about censoring details if I do feel it would help to say it out loud for whatever reason. Like maybe being detailed will help me claim it was wrong and not my fault...

Yaku, I'm sorry about what I wrote before...I feel like it was too harsh. I'm going back to delete it, because I feel I came on too strongly without enough information about your situation. I wouldn't be giving advice if I am not able to read the whole thread...hugs to you...((((Yaku))))

BB, that's really not necessary. I value your advice either way.

DF - Yes, T and H have both been told about my explicit permission needs, but neither seems inclined to indulge them. Maybe I just need to learn to be OK with being rejected, but about something this sensitive, I don't think I can do it...

Yaku,

Just wondering if your T is trying to protect you, not censor you. I read this really amazing article. Oh wait, I think I referenced it on BB's thread, about treatment for CPTSD. I don't know if you have that but it does sound like you have a lot of trauma and abuse and neglect in your background.

Anyway, according to this article, attachment issues must be dealt with first before proceeding to the processing of the trauma. And, the attachment issues can take a really long time to get sorted out. It can actually be traumatizing to talk about the trauma before the attachment is secure.

As someone who has and does make herself too vulnerable, I have not known what it feels like to protect myself. Sometimes I've gotten mad at T because it seems he makes it hard for me to tell him things but now I really think he's protecting me from hurting myself.

I can try to find that article for you if you are interested in reading it. It was really helpful to me. The attachment phase is the longest, I think, if I remember correctly.

Liese