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Sure, Liese. Thanks! It is fine if T has a strategy or even if he has boundaries, but I need him to be explicit and explain either of those things so I don't internalize them as judgment. Internalizing judgment on other things is bad enough...doing it over a sexual assault that I've already been blaming myself for and avoiding the trauma for years would be toxic.
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T and H have both been told about my explicit permission needs, but neither seems inclined to indulge them.


Yaku ~ do you mean like they "induge" your need for them to give or not give permission for you to talk about certain subjects? Or do you mean about your need to give permission for your husband to have sexual contact with you? or... ? Sorry to be dense, I'm not sure I am following and just wanted to check.
It is very difficult to get either of them to say, "Yes, I am completely OK with..."

-Me talking about a certain topic.
-Me making a certain choice that impacts one of them.

Does not have to do with sex. It has to do with THEM giving me explicit permission to do the things I want. Because I have such F--d up boundaries and I don't want to walk all over anyone else like frequently happens to me, I have difficulty doing ANYTHING that affects another person unless they have said it's OK with them and shown me exactly where the line is. Basically, I make the assumption that other people get victimized as easily as me and try to prevent it by being hyper-vigilant about knowing their boundaries. It also is preventing rejection/conflict (which I do not deal well with...can literally make me have SI/suicidal thoughts if it's about something serious). Part of that is feeling upset that I must have hurt them to make them reject me. Another part is that I feel so hurt by the rejection, I kind of melt down. Like I am now with T's perceived rejection. I just texted him again, because I am stupid, that I thought I was projecting he doesn't want to hear about any of it and he doesn't care and apologized. Hoping that will make things better.
DF - I didn't even relate what I was saying negatively to your comment, so you weren't being insensitive. Yes, I will continue to be open with T on this. H is just not willing to indulge. He wants me to make my own decisions and deal with the consequences...grow up, I guess? I have told T that what I was asking was whether HE was uncomfortable with certain levels of detail...but he never answered.

UPDATE: I just told H the details of what happened and he was understanding/supportive. He explained that his comment last night was more frustration/concern about how he will manage his own struggles if I am not available as an outlet for his needs...not that he was actually upset at me for not meeting them. We'll try to work through it together.

Now, I'm trying to decide if I want to write a letter to T describing what happened in all the incidents or just tell him verbally and risk immediate feedback/disapproval if I gave too many details.
gosh, that would be really hard for me too to not have enough reassurance to help me know that something I am doing or want to do wouldn't be something that would be stepping over the boundaries of my T.

I might be missing the mark totally here on what's going on and what would help - and if so, please ignore the rest of this response.

I think maybe there is a different way of looking at it instead of seeing it as them giving you “permission” to speak. In some ways, only you can really give you permission, and then others can say if they are ok with it or not. I also wonder if you do give yourself permission to speak? And then with them, maybe it is more of just being clear what they are or are not ok with, rather than giving you permission to speak or not. It's then you owning what you need and them owning what they need... which is maybe what you are saying? Is that what you mean? sorry if I am off...

I ask my T all the time, "can we talk about...? can we do...?" She pointed out that I am always asking - rather than saying "let's do..." So I explained to her that I ask "can we...?" because I want to make sure I am within her boundaries. She understood. So now I am practicing saying "I want to..." or "I need to..." and then asking if it is ok with her. It is more assertive, less passive, and more of an act of me owning what I want or not than just saying "can we...?" or "is it ok with you if we...?" The thing is, when start by saying, "I want..." or "I need..." and then ask if she is ok with it, it opens up to the possibility of feeling more "rejection" if she says no, it doesn't work for her. If I only ask "can we..." then it seems less rejecting to me if she says no... I don't really know why this plays out for me this way, but it does.

It may seem like a silly semantics thing, but for me, it isn't. For me, saying "I want..." is a big step for me. It has taken months of my T being ok with me saying "can we..." and having that reassurance that yes, it is ok... and if it wasn't ok, she would say it, and yet not reject me, and see if there was another way to meet my need. I really needed that phase of getting a lot of reassurance and experience of knowing she would be clear about her boundaries with me. When it started to sink in, then it made it much easier for me to say what I need and don't need. It made it easier for me to own my own stuff, needs, boundaries and work on myself when I finally began to feel like I really didn’t have to take care of her, guess at her boundaries, keep her own boundaries for her… all in an attempt to avoid rejection. (does this make any sense at all?)

All of this might be totally different than what you are dealing with. I just can understand that feeling of needing to know where the boundaries are first with another before I can risk more... so it makes sense to me... I think it is really valid for you to need the boundaries to be more clear and stated out loud, so to speak. It's important. I'm sorry neither your T or your H are willing to be more clear about their own boundaries.

I think there are ways to keep working at this and figure it out despite not getting the clarity that would help about their boundaries. (And maybe there is more reason for why your T isn't clearer about his boundaries... Gosh, it would probably be so helpful if he explained why and what he is trying to do - just that would help you know sort of the "lay of the land" and the area you are navigating with him in the relationship with him. )

I think you do have to leave their boundaries up to them. It's up to them to take care of themselves. I am a chronic “people pleaser”(which I do to try and make sure people won’t hurt and/or reject me) and several times my T has said, "wait, are you trying to take care of me again? That's my job. Let me keep my own boundaries." I think that is very true with your T and H too. Your H's and T's boundaries are for them to take care of and make clear. I read this book on boundaries recently and the author talks a lot about how when someone is not clear and direct about their own boundaries and we cross over them without knowing, it isn't our fault. It was theirs. We can't read minds of course. And other people can't read ours too so we all have just focus on our own stuff and try to say it and be clear about what we need, want, and where our limits and boundaries are.

You are not stupid. I think you are reacting in a normal way to uncertain boundaries in relationships with your T and H - relationships where you are vulnerable and working on hard stuff.
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Basically, I make the assumption that other people get victimized as easily as me and try to prevent it by being hyper-vigilant about knowing their boundaries.

I do this so much. All the time... For me, as I look at everyone else's boundaries and like try to keep their boundaries for them, I lose my own boundaries somehow. I forget them or I am not sure of them and then I have to work extra hard to find them again. It's taken time - but I think healing comes for me as I am shifting to focusing more on just keeping my own boundaries. It's painful too. Because I worry about rejection. Yet at the same time, I am finding that over time the rejection is less, along with the fear of rejection. They have both reduced. I don't really understand how or why, but both my Ts say they are not surprised.

I hope that as much as you can, you can keep saying what you need, as directly and clearly and specifically as you can. As much as you can, I’d encourage you to try to let your T and H take care of their own boundaries. They may or may not be ok with it, they may or may not be clear about if they are ok with it, but at the very least, you will be doing the very hard (and over time it is also healing) work of defining you and what you need and want, even when it means facing it may or may not come. And, it also opens up for a good chance for your T and H to keep hearing what you need and hopefully, begin to be clear about their boundaries and also meet you where you are at and help you walk through all of this. Plus, you need to take care of you. In the end, I think it may really help your relationship with your T and H. At least with your T, let him do his job for him - which includes keeping his own boundaries. and yeah, I know, this is super hard to do. I honestly feel hypocritical saying this because I suck at it. Yet the more I do it, the better things get. It's hard all the same.

Ok, I am going to stop rambling on and being so mixed up. I may be totally off on all of this, and if so, please ignore and disregard everything.

You have really good insight into a lot of what could be going on for you. You are doing a great job overall with all of this - and it's not easy stuff! I hope it gets easier soon and that your T can be more clear, help reassure you with him, and that it would hopefully help you feel safer with him to be able to talk easier and more.

hang in there,
~ jane
oh sorry, just crossposted with you Yaku

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UPDATE: I just told H the details of what happened and he was understanding/supportive. He explained that his comment last night was more frustration/concern about how he will manage his own struggles if I am not available as an outlet for his needs...not that he was actually upset at me for not meeting them. We'll try to work through it together.


YAY!!! way to go for braving this tough stuff! I'm SO glad you talked with him even more and that he was understanding and supportive. Yay! That's really good he clarified his comment in that way too.
Thanks, Jane.

I think you can probably safely stop saying, "This may just be about me, just ignore it if it's not true for you." Because, everything you say is right on the mark. I was thinking more about where the, "Is this OK to talk about?" comes from. It is 99% to do with my mother. She is the one who, throughout my life, has and continues to try to violate my boundaries most consistently. She is also the one, whenever I would try to express how I would feel, would do things like react with violent anger (I never was actually attacked except being in between other people's fights, but she would throw stuff at us, scream and threaten), extreme rejection ("I DON'T CARE!"), emotional abuse (telling us in a myriad of ways how horrible and wrong we were for how we felt and for not doing more for her, even as I practically raised her younger children) or abandonment ("Get the f--- out of my house!"). We did some family therapy through the YMCA for a few months (I forget why) when I was in middle school. She would literally tells us what we were and were not allowed to talk to that T about. And if we started talking too much in session, she would interrupt and get on her own opinion, and the T would let her take over the session without giving us a chance to speak. It's funny, because I only have two therapy experiences, both only a couple of months, before going last September...and both of them involved my parents f---ing me over. My mom basically extended her abuse into therapy by lying about how our home was and not letting us tell the truth. My dad and step-mom used therapy they put me in for nightmares/fear of the dark (at 10-years-old) to tell me that I was not welcome to live with them, because my step-mom was "done raising her kids." Basically, abandoning me to my crazy-@$$ mom. Anyway, poor T has a lot of transference to battle, both as an attachment figure (either I think I'm not safe or he will abandon me) and as a T (where I expect invisible boundaries or ambush constantly). I must be his least favorite client. Frowner

TRIGGERING?
I don't know if I even want to talk about this stuff in therapy tomorrow night anymore. I am wondering if I am overreacting to this stuff that happened to me. If it happened to someone else, I guess I would think it was horrible...but I can't stop feeling like it was my fault or I deserved it for being so stupid and trusting and not asserting myself. Frowner I guess it is normal for someone in my position to feel that way.
Still haven't heard back from T regarding the questions I sent...nothing since his scheduling question about which slot I prefer tomorrow night. I know he sometimes works past 10:00 and could still be in session until an hour away, but I'm afraid I won't hear back tonight and have insomnia or nightmares about trying to tell him. Frowner My texts were so much more direct and emotional than usual and I was projecting quite a bit, so I really need some reassurance...

I have started a journal entry, in case I just can't do it verbally. I have gotten through my "first kiss" experience and writing that out was more traumatic than I thought, considering I remember it a lot better than things with N. Maybe just because I was so young and had never even held hands with a guy, much less have him try to shove his tongue down my throat, push his body into mine, fondle my backside...ugh. Do I really need to tell T about this stuff? I KNOW he is kind. Why do I keep thinking he is going to blame me like I do myself?
Sorry to always be updating my own thread. Having P.A.D. about it.

T did text me back last night, but only to ask if the 9:00 pm was OK with me. It's weird, because I had answered him in two different texts that the later of the two slots he offered (8:00 and 9:00 pm) was better. One of them was as a part of a long text, but the other was just a separate scheduling info text, so now I'm wondering if we're having texting problems again. I'll assume no unless I hear back from him again. He said nothing about all my other, "I need to know YOUR boundaries," stuff. Oh well. Really having a rough day, but don't want to text him, because of yesterday's horrible experience.

TRIGGERING:
Hey, is it normal to start feeling the assault years later? Like, I don't even remember feeling it at the time, no physical sensation in my memory, but since last night, it has been popping in my mind and...
**************************AGAIN, REALLY TRIGGERING*********************
it's like I can feel N inserting his finger in me and my underwear sliding down my legs and him pushing my legs open, but I go blank there. I still can't really remember him touching my breasts (which I think was how it started, with him fumbling with my bra and touching my breasts) or the oral part...I'm afraid it's going to start coming back more.
*********END TRIGGER***********

H was trying to cuddle me and make me feel better last night and I just feel on edge constantly. I kept curling up small and felt a bit shaky. I ended up having to sleep on my stomach. That made me realize that I hated being on my stomach before this incident happened. I only ever slept on my side and my back. After it happened, and especially after all the nighttime stuff with H started (before we were married, on occasions I would sleep over), I could only sleep on my stomach and if my neck started hurting, I would turn to my side. Reading about symptoms, I realized my sleep problems started around then. I always blamed my little brother, because he was an infant and I was up late with him while my mom worked (until 2:00 am), but even after he went to bed, I couldn't sleep. And I lost a lot of weight after things with N. I blamed it on being tired...I would put my head on a desk and sleep through lunch instead of eating. I actually had a few friends worry I had become anorexic (I wasn't, but maybe could have if it had kept going). Lately, I have been struggling to eat again. Many days, I can only eat dinner, or maybe dinner and a small snack or dessert. I guess, I never related any of this stuff together. Having all this come out is making it really hard to take care of myself. Do you think talking about it will help me get through it faster or am I just re-traumatizing myself if I go in there and push myself through? I don't know what to do. I want to cancel my appointment. I want to have never gone to counseling and connecting with my feelings. My mom is boundary crossing right now too, only in a slightly annoying way, but I am so activated, everything seems like a big deal to me. Frowner

Sorry again for asking so much advice from you guys.
I just did something really stupid. I looked up N on FB...and both of my older sisters, my niece, my niece's father and a history teacher from the high school we both attended are on both of our friends list. We are connected by six people. Thank God he has never tried to friend me. It makes me sick that six people I care about are his friends. Why did I just do that? I guess seeing it was the closest I feel like I can come to confronting it. And he looks so happy and normal (well, still awkward and dorky...but otherwise normal). Am I sure this wasn't just all my fault? How could such a loser go on and just have a normal life? WTF is wrong with me? I want to delete my FB profile, but then I'd have dozens of people asking me why. I wonder if he has looked at my profile (what little parts of it are public). I just found I could block him...now I am feeling better. He cannot "see" me anymore, not that he ever thought about any of this or cared at all.
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Do you think talking about it will help me get through it faster or am I just re-traumatizing myself if I go in there and push myself through?


This is just my 2 cents... but I think especially because this is all coming up so strongly for you, that it would be good to share what you can, AND to remember, it's ok if you can't share too. It seems like you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself or feel like a lot of pressure to share everything - perhaps to get reassurance? comfort? help with the deep pain you are walking through?

Pacing is important, and it looks different for everyone. I think the most important thing to share is how you are feeling and doing in this present moment, how activated you are, even if you can't quite go into why.

Maybe take some of the pressure off yourself in trying to say everything, and just focus on sharing how stirred up you are? Then your T can help turn down the activation level you are feeling? In the long run, it usually is very true that talking about all of this is a really good way to get through it and really heal the deeper wounds. At the same time, you have come very far in just the past week in dealing with it. You have shifted a lot in how you write about it - a very positive shift (even though it might feel really awful right now).
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I don't know what to do. I want to cancel my appointment. I want to have never gone to counseling and connecting with my feelings. My mom is boundary crossing right now too, only in a slightly annoying way, but I am so activated, everything seems like a big deal to me.


I'm so sorry it's feeling so scary and intense right now. It makes sense that "small" things would be much harder to deal with. This is really true for me too whenever I am more activated. I hope you don't cancel and do go, and remember, even if "all" you do is just go and be present with your T and make an attempt at reaching out for his support in the midst of all your are grappling with, that is a huge step towards healing.

ugh, so sorry about finding N on facebook. That would make me feel really bad too. I'm so glad you blocked him!!!

hoping and praying you find some rest and peace,
~jane
Thanks for the support, Jane. I'm still feeling so disgusted at having friends in common, especially four family members...but it can't be helped, as I don't really have enough trust in those people (sad, in the case of my sisters) to want to tell them about it. My family turns everything into drama and gossip and this is NOT something I want talked about, especially behind my back. Frowner

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