Liese,

Oh my do I understand what you are experiencing right now! It's really hard to find a middle ground when the T thinks their version is right and you really think your version is right. I think the most important thing (at least for me) would be to have T understand your point of view and tell you that he does understand your perspective even if it differs from his. I think that is really crucial. I think if you explain that your recollection is that you were talking about that session in particular and based on that it upset you that then he can maybe see why you thought he was talking about that session in particular and perhaps acknowledge that your reaction makes sense based on your understanding of the situation. The other side of that is understanding that if he really feels that he wasn't talking about that particular session that maybe he wasn't but didn't make that clear. Perhaps in his head he thought he had made the separation between the statement and that session but it wasn't clear and in that way it wasn't intentional. Would it help you to hear that he understands why you feel that way based on your understanding of what happened and if he clarified what he meant?

Anyway, I'm sorry as I know these issues can really stir stuff up. I hope you can get it worked out.

Hey there Liese, well first off I want to say good for you for deciding to go to the session, at least that gives you an opportunity to tell him directly what’s been going on for you, rather than having to sit with angry and confused feelings and getting even angrier because you’d have felt obliged to miss a session because of him. And I have to say, lots of credit to him for encouraging you TO come in and work through this, imagine how you’d have felt if he hadn’t responded at all

I agree with what STRM says, that even if he sees his comments as meaning something different from how you experienced them, so long as he makes the effort to understand your perspective and is open to hearing your feelings about it, then things could be resolved. It shouldn’t be a question of who’s right and who’s wrong so I really hope he doesn’t go into defensive mode and try and override your perceptions with his reality.

Good luck with the session

LL

((((STRM))))((((LL)))))

Back from my session. T totally sees where I was coming from and where I went with what he said. I think that what I have to do is allow for two realities to exist at the same time: mine and his. And that his wasn't necessarily the "evil monster" I made it out to be.

On Monday, I told T he was mean. I meant during a particular session almost a year ago but now I'm not actually sure I verbally referenced that session because just to think about that session really really hurts me. It was the most painful session I've had with T ever. And, so I'm trying to talk about it with him but I'm not sure how clear I was.

And, so his comment in response in my head was directed to that session because that's what I was talking about. But he took my "you were so mean" comment to be a general statement of our therapy together over the past almost 4 years.

In that context, his response was not hurtful. He explained today that he also knew I was upset when I left even before he made that comment. I told him that I felt angry but I didn't know why. And he said to me, "Oh, now I'm going to be worried."

He tends to make (and he admitted as well) these off-the-cuff comments sometimes (which this one was) that I tend to misinterpret. And, so he had it in his mind that I was angry - though I didn't know why - and he didn't want to rush me out and wanted to say something to make me feel better and ironically made things a lot worse.

He acknowledged that when I made my "mean" comment, he wasn't really sure what I was referring to, should have asked me and should have also clarified what he meant by his comment.

All in all a successful outcome with T. So why do I still feel like crap?

Sometimes, we unconsiously bring misunderstanding into our sessions. Even that was hard for me to understand at first, but as its happened so many times during my yrs in therapy I have learnt to "spot" this moments.

Its not a question so much of whose "right" or whose "wrong", what was important was that it happened and we worked through it. It was the needing to be able to work through misunderstanding that was at the crux of it.

Before I quit with the t I just saw, I tried recording the appointments because of the high level of rage I felt at how it seemed like when referring to past appointments, it was like we were in two different ball parks. Recording meant I either had evidence that I was right, or could be reassured as to what was said was not what I thought that was upsetting to me. I only needed to do it with one of the two I saw. I did not have those issues with the second one. Just a thought.

Freud,

Yes, you are so right that it's not a question of who's right and who's wrong. I think I'm really beginning to believe that. That's a leftover notion from childhood, right? I so wanted my parents to validate that I was right and my sister was wrong and they just wouldn't do it.

We were able to work through it and I think I can see now that his reality and mine can exist at the same time.

STRM, I was thinking about your current conflict with your T and kind of comparing notes a little. I don't know much about the background with your parents but am guessing that you came from an invalidating environment also? I have huge issues with validation/invalidation and what I see that my T did today was that he totally validated my version of my reality (which I soooooo desperately need) but then he was also able to communicate effectively just where he was coming from and that we were not on the same page. That part is not his fault and it's probably somewhat mine because I do not communicate my feelings very well. And, so while emotionally I was in one place thinking I was communicating something he was picking up, the reality is I wasn't.

I'm wondering if that's where you T can help you. Validate what you saw. Where you went with things. Maybe at the end of the day, my T is not different than your T and neither of them are the evil monsters we sometimes feel them to be, it's just that your T isn't able for some reason, to validate your side of things while being able to show you that her side wasn't necessarily as threatening to begin with as if feels like it is to you. Does that make sense?

Liese, great about how your session went. And good that you were able to hold T's reality AND yours together without one or the other having to be the 'right' one. I like the way you've connected that to your past, it makes perfect sense to me!

It sounds like it all went well, but I'm sorry that you are still feeling like crap. I'm wondering why? Do you think it's the after effects of having felt so angry at T, or is it something else? Maybe it's just there anyway and the session itself was resolving another issue and not really addressing this pain? Sorry this is me going into 'explain every detail' mode, please ignore these questions if they are too nosey.

Just want to say I think it's great you worked this out with him and have come away with a 'rupture repaired' Good one.

LL

Liese,

First let me say how sorry I am that you felt invalidated in your therapy. I know how horrible that can feel when you trust this person and you make yourself vulnerable and open up only to be met with a dismissive invalidating comment. I am so sorry you experienced this and I know how disruptive this can be to therapy process.

However, it seems to me that your T is very sincere in his desire to sort through and make sure it gets taken care of. I know it doesn't erase what he said or did, but I do think its a sign of a healthy relationship that he is at least willing to explore where he went wrong and learn from it.

and now I see that you also have updated this thread and that you were able to work through it. It sounds as though instead of the two of you arguing about who's version of events was correct, the two of you were able to instead explore how it came about that you had such different realities. I think this sort of thing is really valuable and will help you in other relationships. These different realities are really at the heart of so many of the issues that come up in our relationships, aren't they? It makes me think of a movie I saw years ago called, "he said, she said" which told the same story but from two different people's perspectives and it was comical how different the story was based on whose lens you were seeing it through. While we may not always think that the other person's reality is the correct version of events, we have to remember that they DO have their own reality and in order to get anywhere with them, we have to understand what that reality is.

(((stoppers))) I'm sorry that things didn't work out with you and T. I could never record my sessions, however, because I could never listen to myself. It would freak me out too much. Thanks for the suggestion, though. I have thought about it because I probably do distort a lot of things.

(((LG))) You are so right about the different realities. I think what happened to me was that I was so invalidated as a child that I never developed the capacity to understand and accept different points of view, something that I'm only learning to do now. As I grew up, other points of view always then felt like more invalidation, which of course wasn't meant that way but that's just the way I experienced it.

I am starting to understand that it's not that one is wrong and the other is right. They are just different. T really works hard to understand me and get our therapy right. He's very willing to take responsibility for his part in our misunderstandings and he never blames me for anything. There have been missteps but there would be in any relationship.

What I do really like and I don't know if he's doing it intentionally but he seems to find a way to validate me and see how I got to where I got and then he explains where he was coming from.

((LL))) Yes the session went well but I think you hit the nail on the head when you wondered if it resolved another issue but didn't resolve the pain. I was actually so proud of myself for standing up for myself today. I really had it in my head that if T wasn't going to be supportive of me, I was finally ready to walk. Even though his point of view was different than mine, he was supportive of what I said and encouraged me to come in and work things out and wants to work with me. It's all okay. He's not going to push me away if I'm angry with him.

I keep asking myself, so why the pain? Why do I hurt so much? And, I remember when T and I had a problem almost a year ago and I didn't feel entitled to my emotional needs. I backed down and didn't stand up for myself. Of course, I've done that over and over again in many relationships. The year wound up being very painful for me. I think but I'm not sure, I think that the pain is coming from my growing awareness that I've sold myself short over the years. I've put up with horrible treatment from others because I didn't think I was worth more. And that makes me really really sad, LL. I let me get kicked around.

(((((Liese)))) nice to see you- it's been awhile. It's not nice to see you hurting though. I'm sorry. I think the greatest thing is to realize that we got kicked around...or ignored, or whatever- and then to recognize it helps us so much to be able to change the future...like how you are learning to tell your T when stuff he does bugs you, and you are able to resolve it with him because he doesn't turn it back onto you or make it all your fault while he stays a very shiny T. You know? I liked the sound of how the two of you handled this- but I'm sorry that it didn't take the pain away. Pain is just that, isn't it? Pain and it sucks...and sometimes I am finding, it is just something we have to keep trying to resolve, while at the same time, living with it and accepting it. Easy words, harder to do. I know how much you have lost your heart to this T. I understand that, and I do beleive it's a deep wound from childhood, so that when anything he does resembles the past, it almost feels like it is happening all over again in the present. I can be agony when the T does that...even when it is accidental! Gives you a taste of what a child feels like when adults dismiss them or do not accept them, or hurt them. Very sad stuff to feel. But you are doing better than you got. You are a caring mom and a good and caring person. I'm really enjoying having a T that I do not have any transference with...I wouldn't say no attachment, though- actually I do feel fond and grateful- but the problem with transference (for me_ was that, my past apparently being what it was- it rendered me incapable of doing therapy with my T, partially because of the nature of my particular transference feelings, and partially since he didn't seem to know how to deal with it, it was like I was some kind of strange "phenomenon" to him or something. So it is so very heartening to hear that your T is willing to sort out the past from the present with you, and not take it all personally or make it all about him, as in: "you are a good client when you like me and are trusting and grateful to me, but you are a bad client when you have issues of trust with me, or you bring misunderstandings and confusion with you, or don't speak well, but I'll never tell you hat I feel that way." Talk about crazy making! Sorry to get up on the soapbox about my own past T junk, but I did want to say how glad I am that your T seems to remain mostly neutral, and yet caring.

As for the pain...I'm sending you comforting hugs, I'm sorry that it hurts so much..

BB

(((BB)))

Thanks for the hugs. I really need them today. Don't apologize for getting on your soapbox. It was interesting to read. It sounds like you are getting a handle on what happened between you and GuruT. Is cowboy T helping you shed some light on what went wrong? What do you mean by your particular type of transference?

Don't feel pressured to share. Only if you want to Beebs. And, thanks again for the hugs.

(((Liese)))

I hope things are better than yesterday. It sounds like you and T did a good job resolving the issue. He explained what he meant, you realized that he may not have completely understood what you were referring to, he validates your feelings. I have had some of the same kind of events with my T because I think his response to my despair especially when we are out of time or on the phone can sometimes strike me as dismissive when he is trying to be ironic or off the cuff.

I always find it takes some time and some more sessions talking about the misunderstanding or not to have the pain recede. I think for me part of the pain is realizing that T is not the all-know omniscient carer that I want and then my black and white thinking takes over and I think if he can't be perfect maybe I don't want his care at all because it hurts when he gets close to perfect and then makes a mistake. But maybe that is just relevant to me.

Liese, thanks for explaining more about why you are in pain despite what was a good session.

quote:

I think that the pain is coming from my growing awareness that I've sold myself short over the years. I've put up with horrible treatment from others because I didn't think I was worth more. And that makes me really really sad

It makes me sad too . And I can relate very closely to it as well. I can’t help thinking that a fair number of us have these really profound feelings of self as worthless and undeserving and that our healthy anger is buried along with whatever memories we might have had of once upon a time experiencing ourselves as perfectly innocent and not even having to question whether we deserved good treatment or not. Ooh sorry for the ridiculously long sentence.

It also makes me wonder why so may Ts shy away from encouraging anger. It sounds like your T is up to the job though – I’ve found that when a T can accept and validate my anger at them (justified or not), it’s made a big difference in my feeling a little more, if not actually worthy, then able to seriously question just how much my sense of self as worthless is founded in reality. And yeah, it’s a very very painful to be in to see how I’ve contributed to my own sense of having no worth, by not being able to stand up for myself in times when people have made me feel bad. Lol but then I get all resentful wondering why can’t they just be nice in the first place and I wouldn’t HAVE to sit there trying to figure out whether I’ve deserved being treated badly or not.

I’m not sure that this is where you’re at, but going from my own experience, the result of recognizing these dynamics is more anger and more pain and a general sense of powerlessness and frustration overlaying it all. Though I recognize that mostly it’s generated internally, I’ve spent a long time searching for a T who is willing and able to take the fall out from all that frustration and impotent internal rage/hurt – I really believe that it’s necessary to be safe and free to express as much ‘irrational and unreasonable’ anger at someone accepting and understanding as it takes to undo the way we’ve been conned into believing everything bad that happens to us is our fault, or that we have no right to complain about it because after all who are we to expect to be treated as good? Caveat though, this is my experience and maybe I’m just a bad tempered bolshie cow and other people might find that they can undo those old ‘self as undeserving’ messages in less anti-social and more emotionally acceptable ways.

I hope Liese that you don’t fall into any feelings of guilt for having confronted your T, and that despite this underlying pain you can continue to bring up any anger your T inspires in you. And want to say again, well done you for having the courage to go to that session and get this resolved.

Big hugs to you

LL

Liese,

I'm so glad that your T was able to validate your feelings about what happened and explain where he was coming from. I think that validation is crucial because even if a T doesn't agree with your perception it is important to listen to it.

You asked about the similarity between your situation and mine with my T. The difference is that my T became extremely angry and defensive and in my view attacked me and was retaliatory and shaming in her response. She refused to see my side or examine my side of the original situation that the anger ensued from (on her part). In fact she flat out told me that she was trying to gloss over it because in her mind it was not a big deal and we didn't need to discuss it. I said that if it's a big deal to me that we DID need to discuss it and she proceeded to go after me in anger and defensiveness. She won't see my point of view and will not explore the fact that regardless of her intent that I experienced the session (and really the past two weeks of her reactions) as angry, defensive, retaliatory and shaming. So, we are at an impasse. She said yesterday that it is basically her way or the highway and when she says something I will accept it. Period. No comments from me, no rebuttal and no defense. Her way or the highway and I'm free to go somewhere else.

I know that sometimes I don't communicate clearly or well and that leads to confusion for my T, but trust me I've been very clear about what the problem is with T. It's just such a core issue and her reaction has left me so unsafe in that space that there is no way for me to move forward and trust that she has my best interests in mind.

I hope things continue to get sorted with your T and that you feel better soon. I'm glad he is able to explore this with you and see your point of view while trying to help you make new connections and learn new ways of relating.

Incognito and LL,

Thank you for your replies. I will reply more later when I am in a better place.

STRM, All I can say is I'm so sorry. I don't know why your T is doing what she's doing but your pain is palpable. Relationships can get so confusing. Is it possible she screwed up somewhere or whatever it is you are calling her on has something to do with a flaw of hers that she's not willing to talk about with you and that's why she wants to gloss over it?

quote:

Is it possible she screwed up somewhere or whatever it is you are calling her on has something to do with a flaw of hers that she's not willing to talk about with you and that's why she wants to gloss over it?

Yes, I think that is a huge part of it and I've said that to her which only lead to more arguing. Honestly, I think we are just stuck in a pattern that neither of us is able to get out of and both of us are contributing to. Thanks for your support. I don't want to hijack your thread here so I'll add more on mine.

(((((STRM)))))

Not to worry about hijacking. I have the same problem that you do about glossing over things. I just started to think this week that I might have to learn to let people gloss over things sometimes. Maybe that's a judgment call we learn to make.

My parents glossed over things ALL THE TIME. Which is probably where my rage surrounding that issue comes from because when you are little, it FEELS so dismissive. And little kids aren't stupid. They FEEL that things just aren't square. However, Tthe truth is that my Dad especially just really couldn't cope with life and had already had a huge nervous breakdown when I was born. And, so he WAS pretty fragile and probably being held together with just a safety pin. There PROBABLY just were places he couldn't go emotionally. And, so it really screwed me up as a kid but as an adult, I may run into more people like him, who for whatever reason, can't face their pain or whatever it is they are denying. And just maybe sometimes I have to learn that it's okay to let them do that and not force the issue. How to work it out with a T when there are trust issues involved, though, gets very tricky I think. I'm in that same muddled mess right now and while I want to gloss over things too because it'll probably be better and more productive. And my T is like your T in terms of telling me we need to gloss over this because it'll be better for the therapy. But there is another part of me that really wants the truth and wants the answers. I can probably come up with the answers on my own if I search hard enough. But the answers might undermine my relationship with my T. And, so I'm really trying hard to balance my anger at glossing over things and me needing to know the "truth" vs. just moving on with the relationship. I totally get how difficult that can be and how many issues from the past it brings up.

As my mother used to say, it will all come out in the wash. It will STRM. And you will be okay.

xoxoxo

Liese

Liese,

You sound like you really have a lot of insight into the issues going on with your T and the role that the past plays in them for you. I was definitely invalidated and not allowed to speak up as a child and if I did it was met with extreme anger and punishment. I know that is a factor here. I think it can be hard to know what to gloss over and what is really important to look at. I hope that you can find the balance between those two. It is definitely hard especially when trust and vulnerability come into play.

I'm sure it will all come out in the wash for you too and that we will both be okay.

((((STRM)))))

It's all such a mindf**k, isn't it?

+Hi Liese...sorry it took me awhile to read back...I do not mind answering your question..I think my particular type of transference had to do with feeling like whatever the heck was happening inside of me doesn't matter in the least to begin with, so why bother talking about it? So when my T would show, in so many ways, that I was not important to him, or that he forgot my issues, or that having a regular appointment with him wasn't important...it really validated that perception, and then... I *just couldn't* talk about it. I just couldn't. When I tried to explain to him that I needed him to be interested in me in order to be able to talk to him...he made that somehow "the wrong way to do therapy." and..it was a totaly mind fuck. I still struggle. These days, I get somewhere with cowboy by in some sense "acting" as if I believe my issues "really matter." It's the only way that I know how to talk now, after what happened with Guru- but it is better than nothing...still, I am having a very hard time connecting with what I talk about, really, I feel rather like an actress, viewing my life through some kind of camera lens. It doesn't really feel real, and that is a part of the legacy of pain/invalidation that Guru left me with, I suppose. I know he didn't mean to do it, and that is some comfort, I suppose.

How come you are having such a hard time today, Liese?

Love,

Beebs

((((BB))))

Any one of us here would feel as you did/do in regard to GuruT. I believe now that you and he were in an enactment and he didn't recognize it. That would be his job, BB, to recognize it.

I know that feeling of feeling like an actress. Hopefully someday BB your thoughts and feelings will come together as one and you won't have to feel that way anymore.

I give you a ton of credit for walking away from GuruT. My T and I were in an enactment and I COULDN'T walk away BB. I had people here on the forum telling me he was hurtin me. I went on consults and it while they didn't exactly say he was bad but just maybe that he wasn't getting me. But you found the strength to walk away. You did.

Fortunately for me, I got lucky because my T, after my continuing cries of distress and a HUGE crisis when he went away, finally realized what was going on and how he contributed to the whole situation developing the way it did. But it all went on for about 9 months and I didn't have the strength to walk away. I don't know what would have happened to me if he hadn't finally taken a look at himself. I'd like to think I would have been as strong as you but I'm not so sure.

((((BB)))) And so, my dear friend, you are so much stronger than you give yourself credit for. And, I know it's cold comfort to say it will just take time for you, for things to feel real between you and cowboy, but time is all we have (hopefully!). This game of life is sure a strange thing, isn't it BB?

BB, Thanks for asking why I am feeling so bad. A week and a half ago, my T asked me to take a look at anger, since I think I"m the only one on the forum who hasn't slammed a door???? But my anger is going somewhere. We decided it was shutting me down. Making me freeze, in a sense. And, so it was an assignment. Well, I got in touch with some buried anger towards T and I totally spun out. I'm just starting to feel better after today's session but still working hard to stay grounded.

BB, I want to share this with you because I know you loved GuruT in a similar way (I hope I'm not being too presumptious here) that I felt (feel?) towards my T. But what I've realized over the past week (and T confirmed that this is what happens to me) is that when I stuff my anger towards someone, I start to idealize them. And so the anger I think kind of spins out into some fantasyland that this other person is infinitely better/wiser/smarter/stronger than I am. I'm just wondering out loud here if that happened with you and Guru, that you were stuffing some anger there as well.

Have to go do some more grounding stuff before the kids come home from school and life gets chaotic.

xoxoxoxo ((BB))

Liese

Hi Everyone, I'm not sure I could be angry with T- I would be afraid that my anger would make him leave. I would come from believing that I have to take what I can get- even if it is just the crumbs- and not make waves. The last time we had an issue where I was hurt and angry, I did confront him as honestly and fully as possible and he owned his error.I'm still scared a lot. Scared to text him. However, knowing that I want to text him to stay connected but I don't need anything from him and is that even fair. I mean should I contact him out of session if I'm not in crisis? Why are these things so complicated?

HI ND,

I felt really scared for a long time too to be angry at my T. Even the anger I tapped into recently was from one and two years ago. It's very hard, IMO. So don't be too hard on yourself. This October will be 4 years that I'm with my T and it's taken me this long to get to this point. But then again, I could be unusual in that way.

But I very often felt like you, that he would leave me or not want to work with me if I was angry at him. I know now that everything is okay.

Can you talk to him about contacting him out of session if you are not in crisis? Sometimes it's just that we need to know that they are still there for us. It's better to ask directly about it and know what his policy is in that area and how long it might take him to respond than to sit around waiting for an answer, wondering if you've done the wrong thing. Of course, I didn't follow my own advice and spent a lot of time angsting about calling out of session. But I finally got with the program and T and I had a direct conversation about it and that made things 10x's better.

T told me that anger is what's going to protect me. I'm so far from having it all figured out but people do listen when someone gets angry. I never used to show anger to my kids and they are the worst behaved lot. At least for me. Angels in school. But recently I've been showing my frustration when they don't stop doing something I've asked them to stop doing and they really do listen. I saw my son smile recently when I was wigging out a little. He's not used to seeing me like that. Of course, I try to refrain from saying mean things about them.