kashley
This is going to have to really brief as I have to go to work but I have to go with my heart on this and say - I really, really hope it is not always intentional. Some is I know - have experienced that and am still trying to accept that somone would actively plan to do such things - but to keep my faith in humanity I have to believe that just sometimes it is through ignorance and naievity that people treat others so badly.

starfish

Hi Kashley. This is a topic that has had me getting my knickers in a twist big time! I have the same problems in that nearly all of the bad stuff to me that I remember didn’t strike me as intentional (though I’ve gone through periods where I’ve consciously tried to make myself see it as at least knowing, if not openly intentional, in order to offload the blame from me - unsuccessfully.) I also have problems with the word ‘abuse’ - because yes it implies intention and knowing - I tend to use the phrase ‘bad to me’ instead because that more accurately describes my experience.

There’s only one person that I could partially believe was intentionally bad to me (my stepmother) and even then I seriously doubt it most of the time because basically it’s just who she was (she was an evilly verbally abusive and invalidating person to just about everyone else too.)

It’s put me in a real bind having to try and prove to myself that the other knew what they were doing - because I’m stuck in this either/or situation - either they were bad to me, or I was the bad one and it was all my fault I deserved it etc. And because I’ve never been able to prove that the stuff that they did (and didn’t) do to me was intentional, I’ve stayed trapped in self hate and self loathing and self blame, doubly so for trying to offload the blame (responsibility) onto them.

Obscurely I’ve sensed all along that it’s actually irrelevant whether they knew what they were doing or not - the sole issue for me is how I feel about it now. Trying to prove externally (ie in a ‘would the world see this as bad to me’ context) that the things that made me feel bad warranted my feeling bad, has been a real dead end. I go round and round in circles seeing firstly that it was bad to me and that they knew exactly what they were doing, then that they didn’t mean it, then that I deserved it anyway, then that my perceptions are all wrong and it wasn’t bad at all and I’m being utterly selfish and self obsessed. The end result is that I always, ALWAYS experience it all as my fault and me as so bad that they actually treated me so much better than I deserved! And all the time the resentment because deep down I know that it wasn’t right and ok at all.

Now I figure that if I can be allowed to have my emotional perceptions of what happened (and that includes everything up to this moment) then it doesn’t matter if it’s trivial, unimportant, over the top, not ‘really’ bad, intentional and knowing or not - however I feel about it, that’s the truth. (This is really tricky, because I know firsthand that often how I feel about something is not the objective truth about it, but the meaning that my feelings give it - still, it’s the only thing I have to go on to undo the negative messages I’ve imbibed from other people.)

So the whole point of that ramble is to say that maybe looking to see if how you’ve been treated is intentional or not might not be the most useful way to see things. Especially as I would seriously doubt that very many people intentionally set out to hurt others, whatever their behaviour - as Starfish says, you’ve got to be able to have some faith in humanity or the world would be a very very unpleasant and paranoid place.

quote:

I'm just afraid that as I get deeper into therapy and eventually explore my childhood and my interactions with my parents, I am going to be confirmed in my thinking that anything angry they said to me was always my fault.

What strikes me about this comment is that you ALREADY think it’s all your fault. I think that going deeper into it is the one guaranteed way to start dispelling that self blame - because in therapy you will be looking at the past from YOUR point of view, with someone there to hold the knowledge that you were innocent right from the start. For what it’s worth, you are NOT to blame - and I say that with total confidence as one who also believes I was born bad.

Lamplighter

Edit: Whoops just realized that what I've written could be really offensive to a lot of people - just want to make it clear that I'm talking about emotional abuse here, not sexual abuse, which is a whole different thing and I reckon has to involve if not intentionality, then certainly a pretty clear knowing on the perp's part that what they are doing is harmful at the least. So sorry if what I've said comes across as dismissive - I really didn't mean it that way.

quote:

Obscurely I’ve sensed all along that it’s actually irrelevant whether they knew what they were doing or not - the sole issue for me is how I feel about it now.

This is close to how I feel about it. I've decided that my parents did the best they could at the time given their circumstances. This is letting them off the hook a bit, because I don't really think they had my or my siblings best interests in mind; they were so wrapped up in their own lives and their problems... we were just inconveniences.

None of the "why" really matters anymore, though. What matters is how it affected ME and how I want to allow it to affect my life now.

When you know better, you do better. I know better, and I'm trying to do better than they did. But it's hard. It's so hard. I feel myself getting sucked into my own head and my crazy self-loathing... and I ignore my kids. No where near what my parents did, but more than I'm comfortable with sometimes. Which reminds me... I need to go make breakfast.

Echo I know what you mean about ‘letting them off the hook’, I struggle with that all the time. But at the same time I’m sure as hell not going to roll over and dismiss what they did - it’s just that it’s so hard feeling justifiably angry (or sad, or anything for that matter) if I’m always trying to prove to myself what their motives were - I’m just taking the view that however I feel about what they did, is the truth. And I’m actually looking forward to the day when I can genuinely honestly truly BLAME them. For me that’s really important simply because right now I’m carrying the blame for EVERYTHING (including breathing!) and it’s time that blame got put where it belongs. She says looking over her shoulder waiting to be ‘told off’ for not taking responsibility for herself...

I should add that blaming my lot doesn’t necessarily mean confronting them with it - it’s just something I need to feel inside myself. I hope that makes sense.

Lamplighter

p.s. sorry I seem to be posting a lot of strange stuff today, just had a particularly crap session and am spinning a bit not knowing what’s going on hence all the verbal outpourings. I think I’d better go and do something constructive. Did someone mention food?

Hi Kashley, Echo, Lamplighter

Can I add my ditto to this thread. Kashley, your post really rang bells with me because I feel the same way but I'm not so good with words. I can so, so empathise.

I find it really hard sorting out my suppressed anger towards my parents and my own punitive conscience. It's all a jumble together. And the GUILT!!!! sheesh.
However, it does seem that the things my T is saying are beginning to fit slowly into place so maybe there's hope. Recently, it has also helped me immensely to read a book by Oliver James called 'They F*** You Up, How to Survive Family Life'. By understanding the evolution of conscience and self esteem, due predominantly to parental attitudes when really young, it is helping me split the issue into 2 separate camps:
1) To realise that my parents really didn't behave/act (whether they meant to or not) the right way to optimise my crucial early development as a person, and that I can be angry about that ....with bells on.
2) To recognise the effects of my parentally-induced punitive conscience and self esteem on the way I see myself and interact with the world now.

Of course, learning how to actually change myself would help....I can't see that happening quickly though. I guess that's the hard part.

Magpie

Thanks for all of your responses..

quote:

It’s put me in a real bind having to try and prove to myself that the other knew what they were doing - because I’m stuck in this either/or situation - either they were bad to me, or I was the bad one and it was all my fault I deserved it etc. And because I’ve never been able to prove that the stuff that they did (and didn’t) do to me was intentional, I’ve stayed trapped in self hate and self loathing and self blame, doubly so for trying to offload the blame (responsibility) onto them.

Well, I relate to a million things in your post, LL, but I suppose I'll start here. I'm so glad you posted this, because it helped verbalize some of why I'm feeling guilty or to blame. I guess I've just never been able to realize that I have layered guilt and blame on myself in that way, but it makes perfect sense. It also helps me understand a little more about why it's so hard to get rid of self-hate/loathing because it's not just one layer, it's several stacked on top of each other.

quote:

Trying to prove externally (ie in a ‘would the world see this as bad to me’ context) that the things that made me feel bad warranted my feeling bad, has been a real dead end. I go round and round in circles seeing firstly that it was bad to me and that they knew exactly what they were doing, then that they didn’t mean it, then that I deserved it anyway, then that my perceptions are all wrong and it wasn’t bad at all and I’m being utterly selfish and self obsessed. The end result is that I always, ALWAYS experience it all as my fault and me as so bad that they actually treated me so much better than I deserved! And all the time the resentment because deep down I know that it wasn’t right and ok at all.

This seems to be exactly what you were describing in that first quote. And I can completely relate to this vicious cycle. The only thing that I can't quite connect with was knowing deep down that it wasn't right. As I start to look at things, I can see what isn't right, but I still have this very deep-seated belief that they couldn't have been cruel/neglectful/unthoughtful even unintentionally. Little by little, this is starting to change, but it feels like I have so much work to do to shake that belief. I have so few memories of my home life, but occasionally I'll have a memory pop up. Invariably, they have all been negative. It will be good in the long-run, but it's tough having everything shaken up. But anyway, what I was getting at is that since it's taking so long to not blame myself for pretty much everything, it almost feels as if I'm reinforcing my self-blame in the meantime as each memory pops up. Hopefully, once I'm in therapy more steadily, that will change, but when I have such long breaks between therapy, by the time another session comes around, I've convinced myself (again) that it's my fault.

Magpie-

quote:

1) To realise that my parents really didn't behave/act (whether they meant to or not) the right way to optimise my crucial early development as a person, and that I can be angry about that ....with bells on.
2) To recognise the effects of my parentally-induced punitive conscience and self esteem on the way I see myself and interact with the world now.

I really like how you divided this. This seems like it's exactly what I need to work toward. But yes, I totally empathize with you as far as the actual CHANGE being the hard part. I can't exactly pinpoint what it is about it, but #1 speaks the truth more clearly to me than anything else.

I agree, Dragonfly and Starfish, that

Thanks for all of your responses..

quote:

It’s put me in a real bind having to try and prove to myself that the other knew what they were doing - because I’m stuck in this either/or situation - either they were bad to me, or I was the bad one and it was all my fault I deserved it etc. And because I’ve never been able to prove that the stuff that they did (and didn’t) do to me was intentional, I’ve stayed trapped in self hate and self loathing and self blame, doubly so for trying to offload the blame (responsibility) onto them.

Well, I relate to a million things in your post, LL, but I suppose I'll start here. I'm so glad you posted this, because it helped verbalize some of why I'm feeling guilty or to blame. I guess I've just never been able to realize that I have layered guilt and blame on myself in that way, but it makes perfect sense. It also helps me understand a little more about why it's so hard to get rid of self-hate/loathing because it's not just one layer, it's several stacked on top of each other.

quote:

Trying to prove externally (ie in a ‘would the world see this as bad to me’ context) that the things that made me feel bad warranted my feeling bad, has been a real dead end. I go round and round in circles seeing firstly that it was bad to me and that they knew exactly what they were doing, then that they didn’t mean it, then that I deserved it anyway, then that my perceptions are all wrong and it wasn’t bad at all and I’m being utterly selfish and self obsessed. The end result is that I always, ALWAYS experience it all as my fault and me as so bad that they actually treated me so much better than I deserved! And all the time the resentment because deep down I know that it wasn’t right and ok at all.

This seems to be exactly what you were describing in that first quote. And I can completely relate to this vicious cycle. The only thing that I can't quite connect with was knowing deep down that it wasn't right. As I start to look at things, I can see what isn't right, but I still have this very deep-seated belief that they couldn't have been cruel/neglectful/unthoughtful even unintentionally. Little by little, this is starting to change, but it feels like I have so much work to do to shake that belief. I have so few memories of my home life, but occasionally I'll have a memory pop up. Invariably, they have all been negative. It will be good in the long-run, but it's tough having everything shaken up. But anyway, what I was getting at is that since it's taking so long to not blame myself for pretty much everything, it almost feels as if I'm reinforcing my self-blame in the meantime as each memory pops up. Hopefully, once I'm in therapy more steadily, that will change, but when I have such long breaks between therapy, by the time another session comes around, I've convinced myself (again) that it's my fault.

Magpie-

quote:

1) To realise that my parents really didn't behave/act (whether they meant to or not) the right way to optimise my crucial early development as a person, and that I can be angry about that ....with bells on.
2) To recognise the effects of my parentally-induced punitive conscience and self esteem on the way I see myself and interact with the world now.

I really like how you divided this. This seems like it's exactly what I need to work toward. But yes, I totally empathize with you as far as the actual CHANGE being the hard part. I can't exactly pinpoint what it is about it, but #1 speaks the truth more clearly to me than anything else.

I agree, Dragonfly and Starfish, that ignorance does seem to play a large part in it...I guess that's what I was getting at when I explained to my T that I thought of it as a lack of understanding. Hm.

Hi Kashley-

I have to echo what Echo said. (Bad- I know)

For me- it does nothing to explore whether or not what happened to me was abuse- meaning intentionally done to hurt me or not. The fact remains, that it did seriously hurt me. And the therapy bills prove that.

The blaming of others for who and what I am- does not help me grow, and that is my goal. While I love my T (would marry him if I could) I don't wan't to be in therapy 4 ever.
I would rather go surfing with him, or long boarding with him, or go on some other equally wonderful vacation with him, rather than be in therapy. He does these things, but I don't. Of course all of things would involve our wonderful talks. (Sorry my imagination got the best of me) My point is looking at my recovery- my growth, does not include their intentions, although I had and continue to work on forgiving them. This is done for my recovery.

I can't take credit for this thinking. It does not come from me. I think it is what my T modeled for me early on.