((((Monte))))

Thanks, I was feeling really "bad" and "defective" by not being able to do what he is asking me to do. He really does need to put the horse before the carriage here. If I can't be even marginally safe with a trustworthy, caring person whose voice I can hear audibly and who sits in the same room as me, how will I learn to trust in the care of an invisible Father, who can at times be difficult to "see" and "hear" working in my life?

I am in so much pain over this right now. Feeling a bit ridiculous about it...

I actually started looking up other Ts in my area, it's upsetting me so much, but the idea of having to start over...looking through a journal of over 200 pages of "me" that I have given to another person and imagining having to do that again with someone I'm not even sure I can experience an attachment with or who will welcome it...that seems so impossible.

Hi Yaku,

I'm not sure if I can say anything helpful here, but I definitely fall into the category of someone who can imagine what you are feeling like...so here it goes.

I've always believed in God, but only been a Christian since 2003 (side note...just for the record...I am not believing the rapture predictions for tomorrow LOL ). Anyway...I reached a point where I noticed that I could get really emotional about God and what I believed (such as during worship and music), but still felt really disconnected from people much of the time (lots of fear and confusion in relationships)...and something about that seemed really wrong...and somewhere along the line I got the impression (from Bible studies, sermons, speakers, etc.) that in order to know God's heart, we have to get to know people...we can't honestly have one without the other...it's like there was this big gap within me that needed to be bridged, you know? And the only way to bridge it was to reach out and try. And in a way that seemed really contradictory...if God is perfect and holy, and people obviously aren't...how does that work? How can getting to know people help me know God better?

But there you go. One thing I have learned about God (looking back at other experiences which I won't go into here) is that He LOVES to use these apparent contradictions. And He loves it when we give Him the opportunity to show us the connections we can't see. So, when I run into another one...I think, here we go again. Hang on.

Take therapy. At first I thought, this is insane...it seemed like I was giving this one person all kinds of power that I shouldn't be. And at first, I did. And it got really, really messy, and I got hurt. I tried another one, and got hurt again...only not so bad that time. Now I have a T who is a believer. I've been able to talk to her about what happened with the other T's, and by doing that, seeing their parts in it more clearly, and my parts, too...and how I do a lot of the same stuff in my other relationships. And as I'm working with her...the week to week stuff is kind of uneventful and meandering...and it seems like we're not getting anywhere...but as I'm writing this to you, I'm realizing...sloooooooowly...that gap I mentioned earlier IS getting bridged...nowhere near completion, just tiny tendrils reaching from both sides...but I can see myself getting "messier" in my personal relationships...a little bit less afraid to try, less angry, less defensive, etc...and as I'm doing so, I really do feel like I'm understanding God's point of view a little bit more...certainly not an expert or anything of course, there's no such thing...just saying...as I'm getting a little bit closer to people, I feel like I'm getting a little bit closer to God. I hope that makes some sense.

My T hasn't come right out and said what your T said...but I am very slowly coming to that conclusion myself, that ultimately...gulp...all people, even really really good people, will fail us at some point. The thing is, I think we have to come to that conclusion ourselves, when we are ready, and not be rushed. I think if it's told to us, before we've arrived at it ourselves, then we'll get those first two messages you're hearing - it will sound like we just don't have enough faith, and feel like we're being pushed away from people, when what we are trying to do is connect, and it feels dismissive, or like rejection, as if we've failed again.

And let me make it real clear, I haven't "arrived" at that conclusion yet...I've just very tentatively mentioned it a couple of sessions ago...too much to go in to here...but loss and rejection pain run very deep in me and are the focal points I keep coming back to in my therapy...but I think the important thing is, I'm the one who brought it up. If my T would have brought it up first, I think I would have felt really unheard, and it sounds like that is how you are feeling, too. I am sorry for that. I think maybe your T is possibly rushing things...not on purpose, maybe inadvertently...so I think it WOULD be good for you to tell him how it is for you to hear him say these things.

As for your being "resistant" to God stuff...honey, we ALL are resistant to some degree...you want to read about resistance, read about David in the Old Testament...he railed at God many times in raw honesty...and yet, he was also described as a man "after God's own heart"...so it would appear, resistance is our nature...so I hope he can make room for your resistance, wherever you are in that...that is what my T does for me...and I feel that God is in there, too, wearing down my resistance in His own time.

I hope you don't quit, I really think you are asking a ton of really good questions, it shows you are working incredibly hard and thinking a LOT...and I think that's a good thing...talk to him about all of this, if you can...like I said, I hope he can back off a little and make room for you where you are at...and if he can't, well, then I hope you find someone safer to work with, even though the transition would be really painful...personally I think God WELCOMES our questions...I mean, if there is a Creator of this awesome Universe, I certainly think He can handle ANY question we throw at Him, you know?

And I know it's scary to think your T won't be able to handle it. I'm sorry for that too. I went through a really painful termination with a T who wasn't right for me, and it was awful...but I got through it, with help from other SAFE people who came alongside...and learned a ton...and now I see it couldn't have been any other way...not saying it's going to come to that for you, of course...but if it does...then there is hope.

Anyway I know this is really rambling, but I just wanted to reassure you, this is one of THE central questions I have in therapy too, so it is definitely not "just you" asking this kind of thing...and like I said, I think the answer lies somewhere in bridging the gap between the reality of our faith and the reality of the humans God created...and seeing it all through His eyes, either in the moment, or (as more often happens with me) in retrospect.

Hugs,
SG

SG - Your post was so helpful, as was Monte's, thank you. I almost see myself as having gone from where you were describing to where I am now. I became a Christian at almost 17 (1997) and pretty much disconnected from people at the same time, never letting anyone really in. Then, I went through a period of feeling I could not connect to Him either, so I shut down the problematic parts that wanted to connect at all and buried them (during college) and became all about sacrifice and what was right for everyone else. After some traumatic stuff, I found myself reconnecting with God last year. Then, I started seeing T (his idea, not mine, he was my H's T first) and he started getting me to open up. It was almost effortless to open up to him. He isn't consistent as he should be, maybe less boundaried than he should be, but very, very safe. A really caring guy. But, as soon as he started making me feel these desperate attachment feelings, it's like anything to do with God began to be seen through the lens of T's rejection, abandonment, my eventual need to let go of him...and it pretty much makes me unwilling to ask for my needs to be met, because if his opinion is I should be going to God (again, my God vs people dis-integrated stuff), then I am "bad" to want it from him and he will refuse it.

quote:

The thing is, I think we have to come to that conclusion ourselves, when we are ready, and not be rushed. I think if it's told to us, before we've arrived at it ourselves, then we'll get those first two messages you're hearing - it will sound like we just don't have enough faith, and feel like we're being pushed away from people, when what we are trying to do is connect, and it feels dismissive, or like rejection, as if we've failed again.

Yes, this is exactly where I'm at. He IS rushing, because he thinks that me "getting" this internally, in a deep and meaningful way, will make my therapy experience safer. However, he is achieving the opposite. It's making me panic about my connection with him. And I feel like he will never get why he cannot do this to me. It's like he reads my journals and sees me get all these theological concepts on a very deep, meaningful (albeit intellectual) level and thinks, "Ahh, just a bit more and it will get down to her core." But, it doesn't work that way...at all...at least in my case. Inner kiddo wants T to be someone he is not, but even would accept him being a partial recreation of what she couldn't get and all his God stuff just terrifies me that he'll just push me away and ask me to mourn him doing that.

aha...Yaku, I think you are asking a really really important question here...I'd like to second everything that Monte and SG said so well.
they are smart cookies...listen to them!

One thing that I would like to share with you, from my own experience with this question you are asking, is this...really important point:

As young children and toddlers, we form our opinions and beliefs and *feelings* about our Creator from those who first teach us- or do not teach us as the case may be, about Him. In my own case for example, my first teachers of "religion" rather severely neglected me, or abused me, so I naturally tend to think of God as neglectful or abusive, as I do other caregivers. So it is crucial that if your T is a Christian he can "reparent you" in this way as well...that you will learn a new concept of God from how your T *treats* you, knowing that he is a believer, and has more knowledge than you do, presumably, about the things of God such as scriptural interpretations and such. It is my personal belief that this treatment must absolutely and unequivocally include the full acceptance of you, where you are at- whether you are able to authentically believe- or not. In other words...he shouldn't push the issue. I really like this:

quote:

I tell her “Daddy is going to hold you,” but she has no concept of her dad even being around right now. He feels so far away, because she has only heard his voice over the phone or computer for two weeks, but hasn’t seen him in person, hasn’t snuggled him, played with him, etc. What she wants right now is a person to physically attend to her, to be present with her in that way, and she cannot comprehend her father as available to do that and will insist on me. She is still learning her needs will be met when she cries out for help (to see the world as a place that can be safe) and my being unwilling to meet them will hurt, scare and anger her.

What is worse in your situation than anything else, (as I see it) is that your T throwing the God you want at you when you are in pain, instead of tending to your wounds *himself* as much as he can, say- *being Christ* for you- will lead you to distrust the God you want to learn to believe in and trust , all the more! How do we learn to trust God when we are small? By having people that we know believe in Him treat us kindly and well...then the foundation is laid to understand that the love they give us comes only through them...but without that initial *secular* kind of holding- whether physical or emotional holding and being with in full acceptance of you where you are at- I don't believe it can happen in the emotions, personally, without a great deal of prayer that most young moms like us simply do not have time for- and that faith will become largely an exercise of the will and the intellect...although- certainly *no less valuable* for that painful experience of it.

My SD has done this for me...I can't explain, it's merciful- but I think he understands that my needs are such that require him to simply be kind and friendly to me...if I want to talk of God-things, or do God things...than he is really, very happy with that, but *he doesn't really care* He is quite happy to hear about my days, chat about the children, fetch tissues when I cry, we embrace (within the context of the liturgy,and as equals) he treats me as he does my kids, but without patronizing me or them...with deep respect and care....I really notice this! He treats me like he would Christ Himself. This means more than anything else! For one small example- he teaches me little stuff about animals, well, he love animals, so we converse about all kind of different animals and their wonders...over tea, with others after liturgy. He is smart...he gave my H windchimes...as a gift, he is going away. Now I will hear them and remember what he taught me about God's love..he is smart like that. but we have few theological dicussions or exhortations for me to *trust.* My SD knows very well that I *cannot* trust God. And his acceptance of where I am at with that is leading me, pradoxically, to trust God. If God is like him- and he is a only a simple monk...so I think God is even sweeter- than gosh, all little me knows is *I wnat IN!!* Because it feels so good to be cared about that much, to have somone that interested in me...and he knows all of that is totally ok with it, and says well, we can do no wrong when it comes to what we want from God, or what we need to tell Him. So- gosh, I hope it is not painful to read this, Yaku- but I tell you this, that a monk who spends his days in prayer and fasting- treats me like this with so much plain *humanity*...because I think it's important for you to feel validated in what you long for from your T. Hm- but this is not worded very well. I am just trying to say that...I think you are very correct. Emotionally, you will not be able to accept God's love, until T can accept fully and *judge not,* -that you are of course, *not* able to accept it, and simply, just magically, "have faith." That's just not the way it works. But I think your T will get it, if you explain it to him...he seems good, and open.

All of this being said...no, our faith is not dependent on people, but perhaps elements of it, the parts that are supposed to "feel good" or give consolation- quite simply, are. And that's ok, because human expressions of love and acceptance and unconditional love and support, ultimately originate in the tangible idea of Love with a capital L- the personality of Love, expressed straight through us and in us when we are simply, cooperatively, kind- God Himself. There is nothing wrong at all with strictly human love that isnb;t all that spiritual in it's focus...all of it, that is good- it is from God, and it is a tool to lead us to His amazingly powerful love, which accepts us right where we are at..imperfect faith and weakness of relationship with him, and all. I pray that your T will see this.

hugs, Yaku,

BB

BB - Thanks so much for your input. I feel like T really does feel like human nurture is essential and is completely OK with my needing him. It's just his solution to my extreme level of fear about what it feels like to need him so much (and much more than he is probably able to meet) is for me to be "safe at the foot of the cross," or some other such thing. Whereas, my solution is, "Can we talk about what you mean to me? Can we talk about my needs being met and not met, which ones can be met and practical ways for me to deal with the overwhelming pain of having them denied?" And, it's not that I want God excluded from those discussions, but T seems to avoid them, because he's waiting for me to be safe FIRST. And his waiting for me to be safe first makes me even more certain that all my needs will be denied, otherwise he wouldn't need to wait. It's like a weird paradox, because he's waiting for me to be safe before discussing something that I am 99% sure will make me feel safer in my relationship with him...maybe he thinks my finding safety in that way is "wrong," because it is transitory, imperfect safety. For me, it's like a stepping stone to the better safety. I don't know if I'm making sense.

Want to know something funny? About 45 minutes ago, I just suddenly didn't care. One of my complete state switches. T is just some guy who I am paying to try to help me work through all this stuff. If he never loves me, meets my needs, reparents me or all those other things I want...who cares? Whatever. I guess this is what I did during my whole childhood. I am the last kid at school hours after others have been picked up? A little scared, embarrassed about going into the office to call home and have no one answer. Then, whatever...so what? She's just some woman who works nights and oversleeps and forgets about me. No big deal. LOL. My dad chooses my step-mom over keeping his daughter in his life and out of living with a crazy lady? Confused...and then, oh well. Guess I don't need that guy either. It's funny how perfectly T is recreating these feelings in me, even though he is not really the "bad" parent I'm experiencing him as. I really need to make him understand this, but after trying no less than five times, I'm not sure how I can help him "get" it!

In a more human moment, though, he admitted to driving down to San Diego today to see his son off on a move across the country. Then, he'll drive all the way back up on Sunday and go to work Monday over here. It was a last minute decision and he actually complained a bit about not wanting to do it. It's 10 hours each way, I think, so I get not wanting to, but in my head, I was seeing T as more human, because, "Hey, your son is moving across the country here." And what was he complaining about? He didn't have a lot of time today and had to rush through reading the part of my story that I had sent him. He spent the first 10 minutes of my session glowing about how great it was and how I need to publish, and how he wanted to read it more thoroughly on his way down, etc. He expressed annoyance about having to go see his son and how it took away from his ability to read my story...? Um, what?! Then, when he found out I had a journal entry that he hadn't read, he said something about having computer access this weekend and hoping to read it. I practically ordered him not to, to just enjoy his weekend with his family and not read my (pretty mean in some places) journal entry, which is eight freaking pages! I'm starting to think he spends way more time and energy on me alone than his whole family... So, I guess if he were my dad, he'd be neglecting me too anyway. I guess I'm lucky he's my T and NOT my dad, because despite this pushing me off on God stuff, he gives me A LOT of attention and care. He just needs to isolate the God stuff to when I'm not feeling like a toddler who is screaming in her crib for someone to pick her up...

Back to being really bummed out. Seriously considering finding another T if I keep declining like this. It feels like death to be thinking of abandoning my T. It feels like a reiteration that something is wrong with me that people who should be able to help me never can. More of those feelings of my need and pain being untouchable. I feel not human...not even really here...a ghost of someone who has forgotten they used to be a person...

I don't know what to do.

Yaku,

Don't have a lot to add about a relationship with God and how it relates to therapy. But I do know that in my own work with T, I have repeatedly sabatoged the connection I feel with him because I get afraid. I've been with him for 3 1/2 years now. I think it's taken a long time for me to learn to trust him. BUT, that's what it has taken. It sounded to me at first that your T was pointing out to you how you sabatoge the connection, that you are the one who gets afraid. Maybe he thought it would be easier for you to feel connected to God than to him because it would appear to be less threatening. I'm not sure. But that's a possibility. Maybe he was trying to throw that out there for you to see if that would offer you any solace. And, so before you do look for another T, it would definitely be worthwhile to talk to him about what him meant.

Yaku, I just want to impress upon you to try to hang in there, if you can. You have many good reasons to be afraid of trusting, of connecting with anyone. It's just going to take you time. I know as well as anyone how painful connecting can be. I'm juat "almost" at the point now where I do really think I've accepted the connection. I don't think I'm going to sabotage it anymore. It's a truly wonderful feeling. There was a lot of pain getting her. And, my life isn't easy now that I have that connection. I still have a lot of hurdles to clear. But it was worth the wait and worth the pain. So before you run, try to step back and hash it all out with T.

(((HUGS)))

Liese

P.S. I didn't get to read the other posts too closely so sorry if this is redundant or off-point.

Hm Yaku...I really think that T is using God as another place for you to turn, another resource. so being "safe at the foot of the cross" means, really being *safe* -not just, shoved off. But, I think he needs to get, that you aren't quite there yet. That that doesn't really mean anything to you at this point. You should tell him that...I've told my T and my SD SO much worse. Could you say simply.."that doesn't really mean anything to me at this point...I wnat it to, but it doesn't" ???

BB

Liese - Thanks for your input. I'm dedicated to going back at least through the end of my H's business trip. There is no way I'm cutting off my support while H is out of town. We'll see how things go for now.

BB - I think the problem is, and I feel ridiculous every time I say that...the connection with Jesus means a ton to my adult parts. It is a very safe feeling place for any internal mes who are post-conversion (late teens) age and when I am upset in one of those modes, I actually find myself being able to pray and wait through some pretty nasty stuff. However, any me that feels scared and hurt and little and needy toward T (especially the part that barely knows how to speak), are definitely not ready. So, I feel like my T needs to be Super-T, to be able to see through my body and through telephone lines and text messages and perceive "who" he is dealing with at a given moment to know how to deal with me. Sometimes, it does seem like he has x-ray vision...and sometimes he is badly off. And I just get so shut down that it's nearly impossible for me to just say, "Stop that please. I can't hear you say that right now without me thinking you are trying to get rid of me and becoming scared and wanting to hurt myself. I need you to just be kind and caring and available and 'with' me right now." I just shut down and kind of go away inside myself, because the pain levels are so unbearable to me and when he calls me back, I can just barely communicate. Last phone session, it took me nearly 10 minutes to get out that I was feeling pushed away and judged. I wish I knew how to make it easier on him. I know I need to fix things on my end too, but I freeze up so badly and sometimes don't even realize I'm doing it until he calls me back... Ugh, I must be his least favorite client in his 25+ years as a T.