Hi PF,

Interesting question. I can't pretend to know the answer. I did think though that those deep emotional attachment issues are 'normal' in T relationships and are rather more painful and worrying to the client than the therapist. Additionally, as therapy progresses I guess many clients begin to form additional attachment relationships? I remember years ago seeing a counsellor - and noticed that as I learned to 'let him in' just a bit, I then began to let others in my life 'in' a bit and formed deeper friendship attachments. I guess I'm saying that the interactions widen somewhat over time?

sb

((((PASSIONFRUIT))))

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And while there is so much research and data supporting this model, I wonder if it’s the most effective or only way that can effectively bring healing.

I can only speak from personal experience.

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My question comes out of frustration with feeling incredibly needy

And my personal experience mirrors yours in feeling a lot frustration about feeling so needy. The pain that came with it never resolved. It does for some people but didn't for me and so now I seek a more mentor/mentee type of relationship.

You are a wman seeing a man therapist? I can't help but wonder if there is no way to truly equalize the therapy relationship when a woman sees a man therapist. It seemed as though my therapist had at least three invisible backpacks of power on his back that he wasn't even aware of. Even if a male therapist was aware of the power they carried, I am not so sure it could ever be equalized sufficiently and following the parent/child model would further serve to disempower the client.

After my last experience, I will now only see a female therapist. The one I found sees it as a journey that we are on together, that sometimes she has a little more knowledge than I do but that we are walking together basically. She's shown me her faults. I felt terribly intimated by my male therapist and although my new therapist has the same type of degree, do feel much more her equal, even though she is much more accopmlished and healed than he is.

I had powerlessness issues growing up and so maybe the parent/child model was counterproductive for me. Just some quick thoughts.

So, yes I vote something that is much more equal~!!! I didn't know you were a therapist?

Haha, as I write this out, it occurred to me that the problem with my last therapist was his need to "see" himself the way he needed to "see" himself was in direct conflict with empowering me. He had to hold onto the power in order to maintain his self-image. Ouch. That hurt.

Hi SB - thanks for your response. You make a good point. As we learn to form deep emotional bonds with our T, we also learn to form bonds with others as well. And maybe in each model, you form a bond no matter what.

Hi Liese - I am a woman, T1 is male, T2 is female. I think it might be hard for me to ever think of T1 as a equal because of my family culture and heritage culture. T2 thinks half my anxiety in counseling is because he's a male and my history of abuse. I have found that sessions with T2 have less tension and fear. But I also wonder if I could work through my issues with men if I never saw T1. I probably wouldn't have been triggered as much as not given the opportunity to work through my issues with men. I have a lot of anxiety working along side other men in life in general, which is quite annoying and I would like to get past it. T1 is quiet egalitarian in approach and I don't think he has a power trip, but I definitely interact with him differently because he's a male. I feel like I've been able to work more quickly through issues with T2 and I have wondered if it's worth working through issues with a male T.

I am definitely not a therapist. I've been in many mentoring relationships, but not in a therapy setting. I find the mentoring relationship so fulfilling because it is more equal and it's actually REAL LIFE. My mentee's a part of my life and we enjoy that aspect. That's my biggest frustration with the therapeutic relationship. I had to resort to therapy because I haven't been able to find a mentor for myself.

It sounds like having a T who needs power would be difficult. He's trying to maintain his power while trying to help you sounds like a difficult task. I hope you've been able to find a more suitable T.

Hi Monte - thanks for your reply. You're right. Some relationships are more fluid and people take on different roles depending on what's needed. I like that idea. Glad to hear your T seems to balance his role well.

I love how your T approaches a need - to express, explore, see what can be filled, and see what can be grieved. That seems like a great way to go about it. It sounds like he's not afraid of your need and is willing to work through it with you. It sounds like it's going right so far with your T.

I feel like my T1 is afraid of my need. I know he has dealt with it a lot in supervision, but I still feel like he doesn't know what to do with my need. I think he just lacks experience. My T2 embraces my need, but I'm not attached to her so it's not a very corrective emotional experience for me.

I wonder if I can have corrective emotional experiences without attaching, but instead allowing myself to be vulnerable? All just thinking out loud.

Thanks everyone for helping me process this idea with you. It's something that's been on my mind for quite a few weeks. I love the discussion.


PassionFruit

(((PASSION))))

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I probably wouldn't have been triggered as much as not given the opportunity to work through my issues with men. I have a lot of anxiety working along side other men in life in general, which is quite annoying and I would like to get past it. T1 is quiet egalitarian in approach and I don't think he has a power trip, but I definitely interact with him differently because he's a male.

Yes, I understand this. As difficult as my last experience was, I am not sure that I ever would have been able to connect to my feelings if things hadn't gotten so bad because the mechanism that was maintaining my dissociation was incredibly powerful. My consults have all insisted that I did not have to go through all that but … I know how closed off I was and I don't if a more egalitarian therapist would have been able to reach me. (Or if I would have been able to reach me with a more egalitarian therapist.)

All that being said, like you, I was very triggered by my male T as well. It didn't feel good but now I know to pay attention to my feelings when I feel like that. I can stop myself from getting caught up in feeling intimidated and thinking all the ensuing negative thoughts about myself. I can also separate me from that more now and change the way I react and/or how close I get to someone when I feel that way. Do I want to feel this way in a relationship? Or that way?

But maybe, as you are finding out, you can get different things from each of them. Dr. Sue Elkind (sorry if I quote her too much) told me that she thinks it can be beneficial to have more than one therapist, that it's like having a Mom and a Dad who both cherish you and give you attention but may give you different things and/or it gives you the chance to really experience side by side on a deep emotional level what two different people feel like.

I know I rant and rave about power and powerlessness a lot but it was something I didn't think much about when I chose any of my therapists except the one I have now. It can be an obvious thing, like the male/female dynamic or it could be the little things too. The couch in my old T's office was about a foot lower than his chair and so when he would roll close to me, I remember how threatened I used to feel because he was higher than me. His secretary would say when I called for apts. for my son, "Sorry, Liese, he's a very busy man." He used to bring in other conversations he had with his other clients as examples. I had one therapist but was constantly reminded that he had 200 clients. I've read that psychoeducation should be part of all therapy (and one consult in particular was amazing in the way that he explained things) and yet my therapist never did that. Knowledge is power. "When will I be done with therapy?" "I don't know." "I need a map of what we are working on." "Sorry, there is no map." It was the whole picture. (My current therapist sends me articles on projective identification and countertransference and I love it.)

Sometimes it would really screw with my head, like why am I so stuck on the power dynamics in the relationship. I thought I made it all up or I would be like that in any relationship. I asked my current therapist about it and she said, no, that it was very real and he attempted to maintain power by clinging to the doctor role as opposed to this is a journey we are on together. It was very hard to see but things affected me emotionally. But I also had very non communicative parents and it was easy for me to fall into that role.

There is a semi-conscious belief that I have that if I am equal to someone, they must not be valuable. Along the lines of not wanting to join any club that would take me as a member. If I feel that someone is more powerful than me, then they must be valuable and I will gain from being in that relationship. Because I don't feel that way with my current therapist, I have had to on occasion remind myself that she really knows what she is doing and that I really respect her and her knowledge and experience. That I don't need someone I am intimidated by in order to grow and learn to love myself. And maybe, just maybe when I surround myself with people I don't feel intimidated by but feel equal to, maybe then I will finally be healed.

Good luck with both your T's. I hope you keep posting. I really enjoy reading about your journey.

(((PASSION))))

I'm glad you have a good knowledgegable friend like that to bounce things off of. I loved getting the validation from my current T that my old T clung desperately to maintain the power imbalance but still feel that there is something I can learn from the experience about myself and, like you said, learn to tolerate the feelings.

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Being more sensitive to T1, I feel like he's relieved to see me less,

Ooh, I felt like this with my T. At times, I desperately wanted to be more independent but felt like he was relieved when I was. In order to prevent myself from feeling that, I stayed as close as possible - which was a sure-fire way to drive him away. It's a very painful spot to be in.

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He said he feels powerless and he's fine with that. I told him I wish he would take more control.

Interesting that he feels powerless but you wish he would take more control. What do you make of that?

Hi Liese!

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Ooh, I felt like this with my T. At times, I desperately wanted to be more independent but felt like he was relieved when I was. In order to prevent myself from feeling that, I stayed as close as possible - which was a sure-fire way to drive him away. It's a very painful spot to be in.

That’s exactly where I am at right now. It is a very painful place to be. I know love is not jealous, but I want him to be jealous for me. I’m currently processing those feelings for myself - what is the desire behind wanting to be wanted? Probably some sort of validation that I am valuable and worthy of his love. It’s easy to process in my mind, but I have no ideas how to let it trickle down to my heart.

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Interesting that he feels powerless but you wish he would take more control. What do you make of that?

When he said that to me several months ago, I was so confused. He might as well have been speaking another language. How could my T feel powerless when it was clear he has power in the relationship? How could I take control of a relationship while I was feeling completely helpless? I think it brings us full circle back to this issue of a parent-child model. I have a 4 yr old and we are currently having some serious power play wars. It would seem as though I’m in control since I’m the adult, but the painful reality is I’ve been allowing my toddler to be in control because I’m afraid to hurt him emotionally. I think the same thing was happening in therapy. T1 admits he was scared to hurt me and so he probably gave up feeling like he could do anything to help. And I was trying to manipulate his responses to me because I was so afraid of rejection, which led our bump in therapy. I wanted him to take control the way my toddler has probably wants me to take control.

Fast forward several months later, I’m learning that I’m not a toddler and I need to take control of my own life. I also realized I didn’t know his or my emotional boundaries. In my mentoring group, we are doing a book study that discusses boundaries. I’ve learned that I was trying to take responsibility for T1’s feelings for me as if I could control them. I was so busy trying to control his feelings for me by saying and doing things that I thought would please him and I was not taking responsibility for my emotions. One of the best questions T1 asks me when I say, “I feel isolated, I feel alone, etc.” is “What is your responsibility in that?” I now accept that I can’t control his feelings and his feelings are his property. It’s his right to decide how he feels about me. And if he cares about me on his own accord, it is a much sweeter and more authentic experience. And it’s also my responsibility to take care of my feelings of feeling dismissed, invalidated, or unheard by bringing it up or digging deeper to find the root of those feelings.

As of two months ago, it seemed like the power was starting to equalize. We were both aware of this dynamic and could talk about it more easily. It allowed a more free and fluid interaction of warmth and love, which then gave me the security I needed to process some really painful memories. BUT I haven’t seen him in 6 weeks, so I have no idea how things will go moving forward. We have an extremely difficult time reacclimating to each other after breaks (he’s gone a lot), so I’m going into our next session with bated breath.

PassionFruit

PASSION FRUIT,

I really identify with practically everything you said. I was trying to do the same thing - control my T's feelings towards me. I have a four year old too!

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It’s easy to process in my mind, but I have no ideas how to let it trickle down to my heart.

Of course, would love to see how it all gets resolved since I was not able to resolve it with my old therapist but only as much as you ever want to share.