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This may be kind of lengthy, so please forgive me in advance. I have been trying to work this out on my own the last couple of days but I am falling short.

This last therapy session, on Wednesday, I finally worked up the courage to ask him a question regarding the correlation between therapy and other aspects of my life.

I was able to make it to a certain point within the session and I just started shutting down. He asked me if I was and I softly said, "No." I said no because I didn't want him to think I was ignoring what he was saying. That was not my intent.

He is going to be gone for three weeks and with a couple of minutes left...all these questions came to my mind.

I had given back a book and a bottle of lavender he had given me. I asked last week if I could have it back and he said he had to think about it. So, I asked and he said, "No." I told him I wouldn't give it back again. He said, "I rarely give things to clients. It leads to complications."

Then he says, "I am not going to allow questions at the end of sessions anymore." I did not handle it well. I told him it was another rule I had to follow. He said, "I am keeping very firm boundaries." I turned around and walked out.

I called him and told him he was punishing me and I had no say in the decision he made. He has all the power and I have none. I was so upset. I told him I could not go three weeks with this hanging over my head.

He called me and stated he was keeping firm boundaries and it had nothing to do with him liking me, not wanting to work with me, etc. He said he understands I have found Therapists who allow outside contact, but these are his boundaries. He said clients have expressed their dislike towards the boundaries, but in the end they have always thanked him for holding the boundaries so firmly.

This is the problem I am having. I don't know how to relate to him with these boundaries. I don't know how to just see him an hour a week and then him not be a part of my life. These boundaries are causing me a lot of pain and I can't seem to get away from the pain. It would be easier if he wasn't a part of my life at all, than to only see him an hour a week, wanting what I can never have.

I honestly thought I could do this, but I don't think I can. I feel as if I can't move, and my breath is being taken away.

It doesn't matter what I say because he is going to hold to his firm boundaries. I need help navigating through this; if I concede to his boundaries, it means he has the power.

I think it's over. It's really over.
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((((TAS)))

I'd have a hard time with it too. Here are some excerpts from a great article:

quote:
"For Your Own Good"

Several moral principles have been repeatedly referred to by most ethicists and professional organizations' codes of ethics. Of these principles (i.e., respect for patient autonomy, non-malfeasance, beneficence, justice, and respect for clients' rights and dignity), detailed by Beauchamp and Childress (2001), the beneficence principle refers to an action done to benefit others. Under the guise of "therapists know best" and "for your own good", therapists have gained enormous amounts of power to lead, direct and force clients to go in the direction determined by the therapists (Breggin, 1991; Dawes, 1994; Proctor, 2002, Szasz, 1997). (See further discussion on the beneficence principle in "The Ethical Way" section, below.) Under the guise "for your own good", therapists have detained clients, force them to take powerful medication against their will, or have taken their children away.



Here is more:

quote:
Transparency, Disclosure, and Power

The issues of transparency, self-disclosure, and the privilege of therapists to ask but not necessarily answer questions have a few significant ramifications in regard to the therapist-client power dynamic

The One Who Gets To Ask Questions: Therapists' professional role gives them the right to ask questions but not necessarily to answer them, which automatically elevates their power position relative to their clients. Asking probing, detailed, and, what may seem, intrusive questions definitely further elevates therapists' expert and positional power. Refusing, evading, or avoiding answering clients' questions is another way to create and maintain the power differential, because it creates a clear hierarchy between therapists and clients. Regardless of their theoretical orientations, many therapists have been trained and professionally socialized to respond to clients' questions with, "I wonder why you asked that?" or "We are here to talk about you, not me." In an interesting double standard, it seems that the therapists' have a "professional right" not to answer clients' questions, but when the client does not answer questions, he or she is often negatively viewed as non-compliant or "resistive."
Maintaining Therapists' Anonymity: Graduate school courses, supervisors and risk management literature have often emphasized the importance of therapists minimally self-disclosing and limiting their transparency. Combining analytic and risk management orientation, the forensic expert, Simon (1994), advocates that psychotherapists, at all times, "Maintain therapist neutrality. Foster psychological separateness of the patient . . . Preserve relative anonymity of the therapist" (p. 514). As noted by feminist (Greenspan, 1986, 1994; Rave & Larsen, 1995) and humanistic (Jourard, 1971) psychologists and other texts on self-disclosure (Milioni, 2007, Bloomgarden & Mennuti, 2009; Zur, 2007a, 2008b), the discrepancy in transparency creates a power differential. This is why humanistic, feminist therapists and those who work with ethnic minorities emphasize the importance of therapists' self-disclosure as a way to create more egalitarian relationships and level the (power) playing field between therapists and clients.
The Mystique of Therapy: "Unknown" therapists, or those who do not self-disclose and as a result are not transparent or known, inevitably become mysterious to clients. Such mystery often translates into power in the eyes of their clients. Facing unknown, non-transparent, mysterious therapists, clients are more likely to idealize them and project a more generalized power "authority" onto them. Like Dawes (1994), Proctor (2002) emphasizes that "False authority can be set up for therapists through mystification of their activity" (p. 14). The idealization and projection that develops towards mysterious therapists have partly to do with the clients' desire to believe that their money and time are well spent and partly to do with the aura that the therapists and their settings project. What may intensify the idealization of therapists besides their lack of transparency is that the process of therapy and counseling is often not clearly defined and is mysterious and confusing in itself. The cumulative effect of entering an ambiguous situation and encountering a non-transparent therapist results in a greater chance that the client will perceive the therapist as possessing unusual, magical or mysterious powers.


Here is some more good stuff:

quote:
Ways Therapists May Use Positional Power

Set the time and place: In their professional capacities, therapists are in charge of setting the beginning and end time of sessions. They can choose to extend the time, finish strictly on time or finish even earlier than schedule, if they wish to. Similarly, they choose, and can change, the venue of therapy. All this gives them power over their clients who, as part of the clients' role, must play by the rules that are determined by the therapists.
Set the stage: Therapists have the capacity to organize the seating arrangement in any way they wish. They can elevate their power by either sitting physically higher, sitting behind a desk, having a bookshelf behind them, putting a tissue box next to client, etc.
Right to ask questions: Therapists' roles give them the right to ask questions but not necessarily to answer questions. This discrepancy elevates therapists' power compared to their clients.
Maintain anonymity: The fact that most therapists know much more about their clients than the reverse gives them a significant power advantage. "Unknown" therapists can easily become mysterious and powerful in the eyes of their clients.
Power to name: The authority to label, name and diagnose is another form of power that therapists have over their clients. This also involves the power to suggest or interpret unconscious or conscious motivations. As part of the therapists' authority to name or label mental illnesses is the enormous power to define that which is normal and that which is not. As will be articulated below, the power to define what is normal gives therapists social power and control and is reserved to very few others in our society.
Authority to determine the rules of the relationships: In their role, therapists can determine the rules of therapy almost any way they wish. Some therapists choose to impose strict rules about many aspects of therapy, such as strict prohibitions against physical touch, gifts or bartering. Others are open to more flexible therapeutic boundaries and welcome appropriate gifts, fair bartering arrangements or healing touch. Yet, others may impose the "only in the office" rule of therapy, resulting in greater isolation and in increased risk of exploitation.


Here is the link in case you want to read more:

power in psychotherapy
TAS, firm boundaries are one thing, but why might he say no questions at the end??? Is it because questions lead to you running over time I wonder? If so maybe you might have to allow time for questions before time is up. Questions are really important in my opinion, my T has always said I can ask her anything and sometimes it's not til the end that questions pop into my head that have come up as a result of our session; also I feel braver at the end than at the start!

I think Mallard is right to reflect on what has happened up til now and see if there has been a change in his position....sounds like he might have a few issues too.

(((TAS)))

starfishy
Thanks to all of you Smiler Liese...I will read that...thank you for posting and I will read the full article.

Perhaps, I think what I need right now is a clear perspective which does not reinforce the unhealthy need to run away when things get hard within a relationship.

Mallard, this is the conversation as it happened. I don't know if I panicked when I realized he was going to be gone three weeks...but all these questions just came to me...so I asked a couple of really small question.

Then I asked, "Can I have the book and lavender back?"

He replied, "No."

I asked, "Why? I promised I would not give them back to you. Can you trust me enough to do what I said I will do?"

He stated, "It has nothing to do with trusting you. I normally don't give things to clients. It can cause complications."

I started to get upset and started to cry. He said, "I wish you would have asked this question at the beginning of the session so we could have had more time to discuss it. I am going to be gone for three weeks and this is what you are going to take away from this session. I will not allow questions at the end of the session anymore."

I completely started crying then, because I don't do well with rules. I didn't mean to cause what happened. I didn't do it on purpose.

Starfish: I think he said no questions at the end because if something unsettling came up, it could not be addressed.

ALL I SEE IS ANOTHER RULE TO FOLLOW. Rules send me into a tailspin.

I think he was upset because this is what would be left with me for the next three weeks. I don't want to stop seeing him, I just can't keep wanting him to change his boundaries when it is clear he is not going to.

When he called yesterday, I told him I didn't do it on purpose. He said he knew I didn't but he was holding very firm boundaries. Perhaps it is to protect the therapy. I don't know.

I need clarity...because I see him trying to punish me, making me pay for asking the question, which was a huge risk for me to even do.

Frowner T.
((((TAS)))))

It just sounds to me like he makes things more complicated than they have to be. It also sounds to me that he has absolutely no idea how much he infantalizes you. Just my opinion.

His confidence is attractive. The fact that he seems to know better than you do could be the draw there for you. It would certainly lead to self-doubt. But, geez, it seems like you could make more progress with someone else who isn't so rigid.

It sounds like he's making therapy twice the work for you. Again, these are just my thoughts.
((TAS))

I'm sorry that your T has come up with another rule. It sounds to me like your T is trying to cause you less pain but he is doing it in a knee-jerk, poorly thought out manner. I would hate having rules continually set in response to a particular incident.

I'll give you an example of a similar thing. I had a great deal of trouble talking in therapy and expressing my feelings. I often didn't get started until the last 10-15 minutes so many, many times I would leave feeling like I was finally ready to talk and I was kicked out of the session. I left a lot of angry, painful voicemails. It was worse on the sessions before a vacation and once T said to me in the last few minutes when I started talking. Therapy is incredibly difficult but it made more difficult by not allowing yourself to have feelings and express yourself for the last 10 minutes of the session and the hours immediately. He said I was causing more pain for me not him he emphasized and was making it harder for myself. I cried I don't do it on purpose. My T said no I am sure you don't but it is something that keeps happening.

My T didn't try and make a rule that would stop me from enacting a painful pattern. He held his boundaries by not extending the session. He pointed out what I was doing and without blaming me tried to encourage me to do things differently in the future. Slowly I have expressed myself earlier but I still slip back sometimes. I am sorry that your T is trying to make rules for you instead of gently pointing out what is happening and I agree with Liese that he is infantalizing you. He has a right to end the session on time but I don't think he should be trying to control what and how you speak in your session unless you have asked him to help you achieve an agreed upon goal (ie. please help me get grounded at the end of sessions with a few minutes of light talk).
Thank you for your replies Smiler Liese...you are being supportive by just replying. I am trying to navigate through this, it is just so difficult.

Turtle: He makes me so mad, too! Wink

Incognito: Thank you Smiler I think he said what he did because he saw I was upset and he didn't have any time to address it...as another client was waiting. I guess my main issue is that I didn't do this on purpose...but his response...no questions at the very end of session...makes me feel I did something wrong...

Maybe I should just have been smart enough not to have asked a question...in the last minute of the session. I think I just panicked...knowing he was going to be gone for three weeks and I wouldn't be able to ask him anything.

It's probably good that I won't be seeing him for three weeks!

SmilerT.
Hey TAS, sorry your T is being an ass.....AGAIN! He may be really good, I wouldn't say that he isn't, but he is just an ass sometimes. Why would he not give you those things back? That's weird. I like the quotes Liese provided. He seems to fit in lots of them. This is nasty but I hope his vacation sucks. Hang in there, you have done a lot of good work.
TAS,

Where I sit on this is that boundaries are really important to keep clients safe. That doesn't mean that they are not painful - but if they are consistent and discussed then they can be a point of healing. Knowing that someone is there for you steadfastly but will not exploit your vulnerability can be a priceless experience.

What really bothers me about your situation, however, is the moving goalposts: first your T allows outside contact, then decides that this is not for the best. Then he lends you some items, then says that this will not happen again. His solution to your distress at the end of a session is no more questions. I get the logic but a more rounded, collaborative conversation next session about how you might handle things better in future might do the same job and not leave you feeling blamed.

I don't think this a particularly ethical way to practice. It really effs up the power balance in the relationship, and does nothing to help the sense of hyper-vigilance that many people with trauma in their backgrounds battle with. Many of us experienced inconsistent care - this only reinforces the sense that attachment figures cannot be trusted.

In an ideal world, yes it would be better if you were able to be more transparent about what you are feeling in-session, instead of giving the answer your feel your T wants to hear (I'm thinking about the question about shutting down). Ts cannot help us if we don't help them know what is going on for us and I understand his frustration - I'm less convinced by his blaming stance, however.

I guess my worry about all of this is that you won't heal very much if what you are taking from what is happening in the relationship with T is that in order to heal you must be compliant and subjugate yourself. There is a difference between trying to trust a process and forcing yourself to bend. That strikes me as only reinforcing negative patterns. If you cannot cope with his style that doesn't mean there is something wrong with you.

It feels like you somehow think you have to keep putting yourself through week after week of what seems like pretty hellish, painful struggling until it "clicks". Therapy is painful but it genuinely does not have to be this hard.
Stoppers: The thought has crossed my mind Smiler

Becca: Thank you! Right now, I hope his vacation sucks too! Wink Thanks for the encouragement!

Mallard: I am heading out of town but I wanted to say I think this whole episode has not brought out the best in him or me. I don't do well with rules or boundaries and this is exactly why I don't form relationships with people. I just go away. It's easier.

I am sure in three weeks we will have a discussion and decide if the therapy can continue. I want to believe it can, but honestly, at this point, I just don't know. What I do know is that I will not go see a new therapist and start all over. I will not do it. So, it's either leave or work it out...and I have to say...leaving is much more appealing.

I think what happened at the end of the session unnerved him because I was upset and there was nothing, due to time constraints, that could be done...and also, he said it would be three weeks and he didn't want this to be the thing I carry with me over the next few days.

Does he care? Yes. Is he perfect? No. Do I wish he were? Yes. Ain't gonna happen.

Perhaps over the course of the three weeks I can gain some objectivity. You are right when you say I need to be honest. I was thinking about him and didn't want him to think I was shutting down.

I don't let others set boundaries around me because it affects me. I stay away. Just even letting him in as been work. I don't let people in. It is safer this way. I don't take others advice, I take my own. Once again, it's safer this way.

Sorry to ramble, but this whole boundaries issue is stirring up things within me...

Hollow: Thank you for your replies Smiler I am sure we will be discussing this when I see him next!

Smiler To all!
Hollow: Thank you. I don't do well with sudden changes at all. I guess it is something we will have to wade through...but honestly, I am just not built for having relationships with other people and this is exactly why. If it is just me, I don't have to deal with boundaries. I just go it alone. But that is not working in real life for me...so this therapy experience runs in direct correlation to what is happening in my life.

I wrote him a letter...trying my best to explain. My brain just shuts off when I think about this. Things are blurry and I can not see as I need to.

Thank you for the encouragement and I am so glad you found a great T!

All the best,
T.
Hi TAS,

I'm sorry there are complications w/ your T right now. It does seem a bit strange with the no questions at the end of therapy - but I think it matters when they come up such as 5 minutes toward the end or at/after the end even my own Ts would keep it short, I believe. When session is winding down (unless I need to tell my T something hard then just leave [a 'hit and run'] which I do and tell my T that's how I need to handle it) I don't bring up anything new in the last 5-10 minutes just out of habit. Maybe he just had to be direct about it - I'm not sure. I'm trying not to defend/support or argue against him here just sharing my own experience.

I hope it gets batter.
TAS, it sounds like stuff came up because of things said in the session. Like, the fact that he wouldn't give the lavender and the book back to you. Of course you must have had questions. It's very hard to time these things.

I am at a different point now where my relationship with T is solid enough that I can launch into the difficult things at the beginning of the session and make sure I cover everything I want to cover. If I can't get to something I want to discuss, I tell T now, I want to talk about x, y or z but that will have to wait until next session because we don't have enough time. I can also express frustration and surprise in the moment now with T.

BUT, It took a long while to get there. It used to take me a long time to warm up and I wouldn't get to what I wanted to talk about until close to the end of the session. Or, T might say something that triggered me and I'd feel awful leaving. That doesn't happen so much anymore.

My T never makes a big deal about running over or giving me a few extra minutes if we are in the middle of something. I used to pack up and rush out but now I'm learning to read T's cues. If he's relaxed about running over, I try to relax and finish the conversation.

Long message short, don't blame yourself for what happened at the end of the session. Some unexpected things came up and most of here would have been thrown off by it as well.

It's completely understandable that your T would be upset because he wouldn't want you to leave with a bad taste in your mouth while he is away for 3 weeks. He just doesn't sound very skilled at all this stuff. He almost discloses too much about his thought process.
quote:
Therapy is incredibly difficult but it made more difficult by not allowing yourself to have feelings and express yourself for the last 10 minutes of the session and the hours immediately. He said I was causing more pain for me not him he emphasized and was making it harder for myself. I cried I don't do it on purpose. My T said no I am sure you don't but it is something that keeps happening.


This is the same way my own T has dealt with a similar pattern. He points it out and encourages me. He doesn't make hard and fast rules with me. I probably would have a different reaction than you. I'd have no desire to challenge or fight them. I would shut down and comply completely and hide the real me. I understand why your T might need to get you to look at that behavior and how it is hurting you and the work you are doing together. However, I don't think the way he went about it was particularly helpful. It seems to be setting up just another power struggle.

Sorry if my post seems torn. I guess there are times it seems his care for you comes through, but I personally can't imagine being able to work with someone who makes sudden rules or changes like that without shutting down or getting massively triggered. I don't think that makes the boundaries themselves wrong or anything. I think they're probably hugely necessary to create a frame for you to work in. But, there are ways of building those boundaries together that might be less likely to trigger a power struggle. I don't know. What do you think? If he was to ease into something like this, to discuss how your behavior was injuring yourself, to suggest or encourage setting your own boundaries around managing time in the session, would you be able to work that way? Or is the idea of the boundary itself, no matter how it is presented, something that you will always feel the need to resist?
Turtle: This is what I wrote.

T: I am sorry that I do not see how I am going to be able to continue after the 2nd of October. I am coming in because you stated that if were going to discontinue-I needed to do it in person.

I didn't mean for Wednesday to happen. It did though-and due to what happened, another rule has been put into place.

I just don't know how to relate to you. Wednesday was the first session I actually asked you a question and didn't wait for you to lead the session.

I panicked at the end, realizing you would be gone for three weeks. I didn't mean to cause anything to happen, but it did happen.

You stated you are choosing to keep your boundaries firm. I don't know how to continue with therapy.

When I come in on the 2nd, I hope we can have an amiable meeting. We can review the progress that has been made. I am not upset with you, I just don't know how to proceed.

I don't want to quit, but I keep bumping into you. I don't know how to have you in my life for an hour a week and then nothing the rest of the week.

I hope you enjoy your vacation.

T.

So, that is it in a nutshell. I don't want to quit, but I don't know how to proceed. It's as if I am frozen and don't know how to move through this. Do I doubt he is doing this in my best interest? No.

It's probably good there is a break...

Thanks Turtle Smiler I hope you are well Smiler
Catalyst: This was literally in the last 60 seconds...and I have never asked a question so close to the end of the session...I think he saw me upset and knew there would not be any time to address this...I definitely won't be doing this ever again. I probably will end early just to avoid anything like this happening again.

Liese: Thank you for the encouragement. I guess the only way to know is to do. And believe me, it was definitely done on Wednesday...and now I have to wade through this while he is away. Sometimes I wonder if they even truly care or even know how difficult it is!

Yakusoku: I have a feeling the next session I will barely talk. I don't want to bump into any of his boundaries.

I am determined not to make this into a power struggle. I am tired of the power struggle...it takes too much energy.

You asked a great question about the boundary, no matter how it is presented, if I always feel the need to resist. I think I do...but I am unsure why. I don't let anyone tell me what I can and can not have...and I seem to push until I get it. (I am not saying this is okay to do)

I told him I feel he has the power and I have no say. He told me I had no say about this. I have tried everyway to make him reconsider...but he is firm. There are times (very minute) when I feel through this firmness safe but most of the time I am raging that he thinks he can even do this...but the raging is wearing me out...energy wise.

I don't trust him to make decisions in my best interest because no one has ever made decisions in my best interest. I have had to do everything for myself...anyone I ever trusted used me for their gain and the trust was completely shattered, betrayal after betrayal.

I know he is not them but it is completely terrifying to give into what he is asking of me. I feel as if I am betraying myself by doing this.

At this point, it becomes convoluted and my brain goes offline. I literally can not think.

Thank you to each of you for your kind words. I really needed encouragement and understanding, and I found that here. Thank you.

T.
quote:
I don't let others set boundaries around me because it affects me. I stay away. Just even letting him in as been work. I don't let people in. It is safer this way. I don't take others advice, I take my own. Once again, it's safer this way.


quote:
You asked a great question about the boundary, no matter how it is presented, if I always feel the need to resist. I think I do...but I am unsure why. I don't let anyone tell me what I can and can not have...and I seem to push until I get it. (I am not saying this is okay to do)


Hi Tas -

Would it be fair to say that facing this issue, of how you are with other people's boundaries that affect you, is actually an important goal for you in therapy? (It can be very difficult to formulate these kinds of goals because it's hard to imagine anything being different.) But it sorta sounds to me like the two of you are being drawn to work on this, triggery as it is, because it's important to you. It would be very painful to be in the situation where you had to always be alone, so as not to be controlled by someone else's rules. Neither of those options (alone/controlled) is appealing. And hard to feel that you could never give ANYONE the trust to set rules. We do live in a world where we bump into others' rules all the time. It could be exhausting and lonely to have to stay away.

I can see that the way this comes up between you is kind of explosive at the moment, but actually it seems like you've already come a huge long way towards finding ways to be with the issue and maybe start to contain the situation instead of running away from it. I thought your letter was brilliant in that regard.

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