Oh (((TAS))). My heart is sinking. Was it really the last one? I know how I would be feeling. How are you?

RT

(((TAS))) I'm so sorry, especially that he wouldn't explore the idea of changing therapists with you. Here, listening. I know you must be in a lot of pain.

(((TAS)))

I'm so sorry it went down this way.

I am ... I don't know. Resigned. Tired. Any hope I had is gone. I just wish I knew why he is being so firm.

He said the Therapists he works closely with do not allow outside contact. He said mostly young Therapists allow outside contact.

It doesn't matter if I cry or tell him I am hurting.

He is not budging. He just doesn't care.

quote:

He just doesn't care.

That's funny. Nothing you have ever written has ever led me to conclude that.

BLT: Do you honestly think a Therapist cares when they specifically state they will not reconsider the no contact policy? I don't ask for anything else.

Yes. He cares but it's his policy and probably based on what he thinks is best for both of you. If I ran a canoe rental place that required all renters to wear life jackets, would it mean I didn't care because I wouldn't reconsider my policy for people who hate wearing life jackets? Or what if I'm a teacher who doesn't allow students to use cellphones in my class, and I won't reconsider the rule? Does that mean I don't care?

I don't blame you. I used to think my old T didn't care because of her contact policy. I was dead wrong, though. Her policy had nothing to do with whether she cared or not.

Have you considered maybe unconsciously you are looking for evidence he doesn't care, and so you keep fighting him on the ONE thing he is very firm about?

((((TAS)))) i think BLT makes some pretty valid points. meanwhile, my heart goes out to you, i know it can be excruciating (((TAS)))

BLT: I understand. I do.

CD: Valid points, indeed.

Maybe he cares because he says no. Because he is firm. I am hurting. His last words were see you next Wednesday at 2pm. I am looking for a Therapist that allows outside contact. I don't want to, but I feel my hand is being forced.

I am sorry it came down this way. I don't think it matters whether the therapist here cared or not. His caring, if he did, did not match up with your needs. Finding a new therapist, which I think is a good idea, is not going to hurt him any. I think finding a new therapist is a good idea because it is you taking control and finding someone who can work with you rather than at you. Good luck with it. And remember, you do not have to go to any more appointments with this guy, you do not have to get him to approve your new therapist or anything like that. He is just a therapist, not a god.
Both of my therapists are over 60 yrs old and have been therapists for quite a long while and both have no objection to outside contact or more appointments. I think you can find a better therapist for your current place.

how did you feel when he said "see you next Wednesday at 2pm"?
is it your hand or your heart that's being forced?
i know this has been so tough on you, and i hate to see you in so much anguish. i am glad you are considering continuing on whether it's with him or another T.
i think part of your turmoil is (i'm just speaking from how i would feel in your situation) ... although things have been very difficult for you, you have a history with this T and although you struggle with the relationship, you stay because of the history and because he has stayed strong and firm and trustworthy. you do have a connection, even if it is difficult. on the other hand, you crave to maintain that connection outside of therapy and admit that is an important need of yours (kudos to you for this, btw) that he's not willing to meet, for whatever reason.
it ain't easy, TAS, but i think in the end it would be good to listen to your heart, what you need from your therapist, especially since you know what it is you need from your T. i understand how this is so difficult, i do. maybe this whole time you've been fighting with leaving him because you really don't want to, which causes the inner-turmoil? i don't know, i'm just throwing it out there because that's the kind of thought-process i go through. i feel like i'm all over the board here, and i apologize if i am. i do feel for you, TAS.

Thinking your gonna lose this power struggle Tas. All for your own good I might add.

I have one therapist with whom power struggles were usual until I started using her for reasons other than therapy. I have a second one with whom I have had none at all. The second one is not a pushover nor is she soft or maternal. I do actual therapy with her. My point is, if this is a power struggle, it is not all the client's fault. And sometimes there is another therapist who may be better at this point in time.

Talking about boundaries Stoppers.

quote:

I am ... I don't know. Resigned. Tired. Any hope I had is gone.

Oh gosh, TAS, I know this feeling. You try and try and try and you're just beating your head against a brick wall. It hurts.

quote:

I just wish I knew why he is being so firm.

It's just the way he does it. I believe that many Ts who have this policy want to have a 9-5 (or whatever the hours) job and not be "on call." It makes their lives easier, less stressful. Especially the ones who do it to everybody. Just my opinion.

quote:

He said the Therapists he works closely with do not allow outside contact.

Well bully for him and his T pals. I guess they reinforce each other's bad policy. Easier to justify if everyone is doing it.

quote:

He said mostly young Therapists allow outside contact.

This is just BS. I'm sorry, but it is. I told my previous psychiatrist (age 60+) about my current T not wanting outside contact. And she told another T (age 60+) who I'd seen previously for couples counseling. They were both perplexed at a policy of no outside contact and flatly said "you just can't do that" (no outside contact).

quote:

It doesn't matter if I cry or tell him I am hurting.

He's immune. He hears people cry every day. He can detach. It doesn't affect him.

quote:

He is not budging.

And he won't.

quote:

He just doesn't care.

It really doesn't have anything to do with him caring. Or maybe more accurately, it means he cares more about himself and his comfort. He does it to everybody, so it's not personal against you. I know it feels that way. Believe me, I know.

I don't really see this as a power struggle where you're both wanting to be the "last man standing." He's got a policy, for whatever reason, personal or professional, that's the way it is. Period. You, OTOH, feel that you need something and you're not getting it. You're not in a power play. That's a game. You're trying to get your needs met. You're standing up for yourself. You're asking for help. He isn't providing it.

I'm in just about the same situation. My T thinks we're all okay and back on track, but I'm just taking care of a few outstanding items (like my "home visit") that I need to hash out with her. Until we're through these things, I'm just trying to hang on as she continues to trigger all my hot spots. While I would be so pleased to see things work out, at every session I get more evidence why it isn't going to.

(((TAS)))

RT

Stoppers...thank you for reminding me that he is not a god So true...and the power I have lies in making choices beneficial to me.

CD: Turmoil is right. He wondered if I was focusing on the no contact to avoid dealing with other things. Valid point, I suppose. If you are doing something subconsciously, how do you know why you are doing something?

Muff: Too bad...it could have been a win - win situation if he was willing to reconsider. I don't see how it will be for my own good. Could you comment on that please?

Tonight is bad...tomorrow is going to be much worse because I don't think the full realization has set in this evening.

RT: We must have crossposted Sorry about that. It isn't a game, you are right. A lot is on the line. It is too bad. I tried. I really did. I am going to call around this week. It is valid need and when I asked him if he felt I needed outside contact, he said, "No, you do not."

Trying to smile through the tears.
T.

quote:

If you are doing something subconsciously, how do you know why you are doing something?

that is a really good question, one that i've asked myself plenty-a-time, and one you may consider putting to your T.

quote:

when I asked him if he felt I needed outside contact, he said, "No, you do not."

(((TAS))) i'm sorry, but i don't think there are any easy anwers here. i think you need to listen to your heart. i know that's easier said than done. as always i'm still rooting for you (((TAS)))

CD: Thank you.

I just need to come to terms with the fact it is truly over.

I popped a wee blog in about it Tas.

(((Tas))))

How painful. One of the worst things is all the effort you put in with him. They get paid regardless. You get a broken heart regardless. Some how that does not seem fair.

i don't mean to hi-jack TAS's thread (sorry, TAS), but i didn't know you blogged, muff?!?!???

Thanks Muff...I commented.

Turtle: No fair is right. Broken heart is right. He is not affected. He does this all the time. When I don't show up next week...he will fill that time eventually. To ever think I mattered. What a waste of time.

am i super thick or what? will somebody please enlighten me one way or another?
thanks.

It is possible you mattered in a way different from what you wanted. I am certainly no defender of therapists, but in I think it is possible to have a client matter in a way. I think the therapist is often more unique to a client than a client is to a therapist. I think it is that way in many professions.

TAS,

I don't think this is a power struggle. Or maybe it is on his part. What I get is that you can't understand how he could really care about you if he is seemingly indifferent to your pain in between sessions. I get that. It seems he is hoping you will just "get over" it but he's missing the point.


TAS, I know I harp on the trauma literature all the time and here I go once again:

The Nature of Resistance:

" ... Those of us who think developmentally, however, regard the capacity to resist, to say no, to disagree as a developmental milestone. It is necessary for survival, it is endemic to separation and individuation. Without this capacity, the patient lives in constant fear of impingement, invasion, and ultimately mental annihiliation. "

" ... The most appropriate question to ask clinically is not why she is resisting, but why it has taken so long for the patient to exercise her most fundatmental rights in the interpersonal situation."

Technically, you don't have a right to this, not with this therapist. But, the fact that he won't give it to you doesn't mean you don't need it. He has himself convinced that you don't need it. That's a red flag to me.

" Similarly, when transference is viewed as an asymmetrical, one-sided affair, where the patient's observations of the analyst are repeatedly denied and viewed as pathological distortions (you are avoiding the real work of therapy?) that come solely from the patient's own early life, the enhancement of the patient's reality testing is dealt another serious blow. Though the tradition of eliminating the therapists' own behavior from analytic scrutiny has recently been questioned for all patients it is particularly deleterious in the case of abuse survivors. So often it is for his or her own behavior, to indirectly blame the patient. Here, too, the transference becomes inextricably confused with the patient's traumatic past, where parental behavior was obfuscated and responsibility externalized onto the patient. Past and present, fantasy and reality blur, and verbal interperation is often inadequate to redress the resulting confusion.

Quite different is the dialog that ensues when the transference is regarded as the patient's more or less unique response to more or less selective aspects of the analyst's real behavior. Distortion is a mutual process, with the past of each participant casting an intense shadow on the perception of the other. "


I do think he cares about you TAS. He's just limited in terms of what he can give. Although I do think there are other considerations, I am cautious of a therapist who doesn't offer out of session contact. It says something to me about their commitment, understanding of the issues and depth of caring. They are entitled to draw their own boundaries but they should be honest enough to admit that it is for their own benefit - not necessarily for yours.

Why not keep your appointment for next week but also look for someone to consult with? You don't HAVE to walk away from this yet but you also don't have to settle. Take care of yourself. Don't cut off what you get from him until you have something you are happy with to take its place. I did that when I switched to my current therapist. I met him and had everything in place before I told my other therapist I was leaving her. It made it SO much easier to leave her.

(((CD)))

I'm clueless too.

TAS

I am sooo sorry you reached this point.

At the end of the day, the boundaries drawn and decisions made about outside contact (hopefully) reflect his knowledge of you and his professional experience. It is a very hard lesson indeed to learn that nobody has the ability to control anyone else. I think Muff was right in that there are some power struggles you do have to lose.

My guess is that focusing on this diverts your attention from the more difficult and painful feelings lurking beneath the surface. So long as you can find a reason (such as lack of outside contact) to stay withdrawn from the relationship, you don't have to confront and face those awful feelings that you fear will drive you crazy or even kill you. You don't have to face the incredible and heartbreaking grief of the trauma and pain of your life so far.

More broadly speaking, T's are not gods, they are individuals and they are not an endless resource. They have families and lives outside work which they need time for so they can be available to their patients long term. It is vital that they model good boundaries and self care so their patients can learn to create them for themselves. At the end of the day, there is an adult in all of us that also needs to step up and be a responsible party as the only person who can ever be there for you 24/7 is yourself. But having a T to go to who will listen, support, challenge and empathise, who is there for your needs, is an amazing resource that cannot be underestimated.

No doubt there are dodgy and self-absorbed Ts out there. But there are some brilliant and gifted ones too that our trust and heart can be safely handed over to. Its just a matter of finding them somewhere.

I've been dying to put that wee fellah up there.

We are on your side too Tas. The balls in your court. It always was.


"My guess is that focusing on this diverts your attention from the more difficult and painful feelings lurking beneath the surface." GE

My T is in his early 60s, too, so I don't think it has anything to do with age. It's just what they feel able to offer long-term mixed in with what they feel will be best for the patient. On the former, they are the expert, and we have to respect their boundaries. On the latter, sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they get it wrong. I probably COULD work with a T without outside contact (I am needing less and less), but I don't think I would be moving in so deep or it would be very slow work. I definitely could not work with a T who told me (and I don't know how your T worded it) that I didn't need something I felt like I needed. Explored those feelings with me? Yes. Challenged my thinking on it? Yes. But, invalidated it outright as incorrect? I've had quite enough of that already. It's why I didn't bother needing almost anything from anyone for decades. It would just reinforce the avoidant sides of myself.

He really does care, but thinks he is right about what you need. If you believe he is wrong, and he has shown himself to be incapable of entertaining that line of thinking, consulting with new potential therapists would be the way to go. I always feel hesitant to advise or judge, though, because I'm not there to question and try to understand his point of view. That's where consulting with another therapist (maybe asking him to do the same) would be more helpful.

I think what I can do best is just acknowledge this must be so painful and confusing and tell you that I'm sorry you have to be there and for any past pain it also evokes.

I just don't see how a T who treats everybody the same way - doesn't allow outside contact - can say that it's being done in the patient's best interest. Obviously that doesn't consider the patient individually. Instead, it applies either a policy or a philosophy. As a policy, I think it serves T. As a philosophy - well, if the patient doesn't subscribe to it, s/he needs to find a T who is more in alignment with her beliefs/needs.

Also, the suggestion that focusing on this point of interaction is just a way to avoid dealing with issues kind of rubs me the wrong way. Yes, it is possible that's true. But it is also totally valid that this is a real issue between patient and therapist and not some side show. It is also totally valid that this may be something that the patient needs to stand up for and fight for to take care of herself.

Especially for those who have experienced neglect, the need to be heard, attended to, validated, responded to, etc. is very strong. "We" have too long been stoic, gritted our teeth, sucked it up, managed without. Letting the baby cry to "teach" her to regulate herself may get her to stop crying, but it likely also teaches her that needs don't get met. As an adult, this child must learn to ask and needs to receive.

I feel this, believe this and experience this - acutely.

Thank you Liese I will definitely reread the info you posted I know Therapists do this kind of work all the time but what they seem to forget is clients do not. If they want a certain frame...then what they want they should start at the beginning...he did not...he allowed me to contact him and then took it away.

Muff

Green Eyes: I don't know if I can trust him. If you allow someone something and then take it away because it is a 'therapeutic decision'...is that trust worthy?

I honestly don't know what to do. He should have never allowed it in the first place if that is what he truly wanted. Now, I am picking up the pieces of another person's decision...as always. AS ALWAYS.

Anonymously Thank you. It is as if it is his way or no way. On this point, no consideration. He does not care. I am just another client. I won't see anyone else. I am not going through this again.

I have a very full day so if there are replies...I won't be able to get to them until this evening (Eastern time).

Have a good one...and if you have a Therapist that allows outside contact...count your blessings.

T.

RT We cross posted again Yes, I do not like it when he stated I was possibly avoiding issues...I said to him how would I know that, honestly, if I am doing it subconsciously?

He says he knows I am in a lot of pain...yet, he is contributing to it...so, I cancelled next weeks appointment already.

I really don't think we have anything to discuss since we can't get past this and I am not going to keep coming in to discuss something or try to work out something he created. Oh, and I am certainly not going to keep paying him to discuss something he created...That's just foolery.

He got what he wanted. He wore me down to where I would leave and I truly believe he wanted that to happen. He calls all the shots...and I just have to follow if I want to continue with him. I wasn't born to follow.

I know what I need. If I am going to wade through the sh** of my past then I need to know, at times, he is there. I have told him that. I have tried being as honest as I can be. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I say...

It is all one sided. They make the rules...they decide how things are done...and they just expect us to be okay with it.

I had hope. I did believe that someone could help me. I was starting to trust. All of it was never real. An illusion.

T.

Tas, is it possible youve changed and grown and your T's decision to change the arragnements around outside contact reflects that knowledge?

I am so sorry for all the present and past pain that is being kicked up. This is only a decision you can make alone, but whatever you choose, please don't give up on yourself. You're worth fighting for.

((RT)) I know this is a really sensitive issue for you. At the end of the day T's are humans and have families and lives beyond work. They have to manage themselves so they can continue being available long term so the patient doesn't yet again experience a failed relationship. The limits are incredibly painful and sometimes maddening to deal with. I think what a good T does is allow space for all of the patient's feelings yet doesn't give something that either a) undermines the therapy or b) interferes with the patients ability to grow. Its like a good parent who listens to their child's feelings, validates and accepts them, yet doesn't let them do things that compromise their welfare.

(((TAS)))

This isn't all about you. I mean that in the sense that I do not believe you are necessarily avoiding doing the hard work. This isn't a one-way affair. I'm going to recopy what I quoted on the previous page:

quote:

Quite different is the dialog that ensues when the transference is regarded as the patient's more or less unique response to more or less selective aspects of the analyst's real behavior. Distortion is a mutual process, with the past of each participant casting an intense shadow on the perception of the other. "

The part that's important is that distortion is a mutual process. I interpret that to mean is that his boundaries and how and why he defines them is distorted by who he is and his own background. My guess is that the older these T's are, the less they are likely to keep up with the more current thinking.

Here, I want to address something GE said on the previous page. GE, I hope you are okay with this. I don't want TAS to think that this is ALL her. GE mentioned that the boundaries are based on his knowledge of TAS (though we can't say that for sure since here he has the same boundary for everyone) and his professional experience (we have to give him that). I do believe that the piece that is missing is her therapists own distortions and, trust me, they've all got them.

I am going to recopy from the previous page:

quote:

Similarly, when transference is viewed as an asymmetrical, one-sided affair, where the patient's observations of the analyst are repeatedly denied and viewed as pathological distortions (you are avoiding the real work of therapy?) that come solely from the patient's own early life, the enhancement of the patient's reality testing is dealt another serious blow. Though the tradition of eliminating the therapists' own behavior from analytic scrutiny has recently been questioned for all patients it is particularly deleterious in the case of abuse survivors. So often it is for his or her own behavior, to indirectly blame the patient.

What I don't like here with TAS's T is that it would seem so much more therapeutic and authentic if her T just said, "you know what? I don't like to work after 5 and on weekends. End of story."

If he took responsibility for his part, his role in this, I bet TAS would be more likely to trust him. TAS, I'd be leery too of a therapist who tries to make it all about me.

In fact, the book where I got these quotes from talks about a client who wanted the therapist to lower the fees to prove she really cared about her. The therapist kept trying to interpret the clients desire for this and they got nowhere. Finally, the therapist, exasperated, just said, "You know what? I just don't want to." And the client was totally accepting of that.

Why should he make TAS doubt herself and what she needs? He does not have to do that here. And this is just a preview of further conflicts down the road. You may not win this power struggle with this T but it does not mean you can't and shouldn't get what you want from another T who is willing to provide it.

Hi Liese

No problems at all, I think you raise a really good point.

These scenarios are hard to comment on and nobody can know for sure what's going on except Tas and her T. Tas I never intended to directly or indirectly imply that you're at fault here and you have my apologies if that's how it came across. My T who is pretty strict on outside contact says he is quite flexible compared to most of his colleagues. I think in psychoanalytic circles, across the board policies of no contact are common and relate to the relevant theories and traditions of the approach. They are regularly critcised for being outdated and there's probably some validity to that.

Personally I think there's a need for flexibility that doesn't encourage unhealthy dependency or stifle growth and maturity and avoids unhelpful re-enactments and maoeuvres that undermine the therapy. Its a hard balance to get right and mistakes do happen.

Liese - I really like the quotes that you posted - and especially the ones you re-posted.

and GE, yes, T's are people with lives and families and boundaries are necessary - but they need to own that. and, as patients, we need to choose a therapist whose boundaries allow them to help us in the way we need to be helped. no one-size-fits-all.

quote:

I think in psychoanalytic circles, across the board policies of no contact are common and relate to the relevant theories and traditions of the approach.

True, that is common, however the time between sessions is much reduced as patients are typically seen 3-5 times a week. Waiting two days to talk with T is a whole lot different than waiting seven days.

So sorry TAS. This must be so hard. I think the stuff that Liese has posted is really helpful. I agree - you do know yourself and what you need. You are asking for something that you feel you need. For your T to repeatedly throw that back and say that he knows what is best for you...ugh, I dunno. I would repeatedly feel so invalidated. Maybe he's right that you are sub/unconsciously avoiding something...and maybe he's wrong. But his approach and this dynamic is not working because it is causing so much pain for you. What he is doing is NOT working; his inflexibility is causing pain. You have every right to see if you can get your needs met better by another T who can meet you where you are.

Also, my T is early 60s and she allows outside contact. I can call or email whenever..nights, weekends. In the few times I have contacted her, she's responded within a few hours. There are Ts out there who can accommodate you, TAS. It is worth the searching. You deserve to be heard and understood...and your pain lessened. I'm rooting for you TAS.