AG - you have done a great job and explaining your position.

I hope the dust settles soon for everyone.

Somedays

AG I am sorry you're having such a hard time here. I am doing my best to stay out of it but I feel saddened by the amount of pain I see on these boards lately.

One thing I try to keep in mind is that it is SO EASY to misunderstand another person's intentions when all we see is text and emoticons. The topics that are discussed here are almost all very sensitive and even confusing at times. Even if we were all on Skype looking at each other and hearing each other we'd probably still have misunderstandings so it is inevitable that these misunderstandings will happen here in this world of black and white text.

It is a risk to give advice particularly because I think that is the form of communication that is most easily misunderstood. I try to stick with support though I have at times gone into advice giving.

I think I am saying things that people already know.

Anyway ((AG)) I am sorry you are feeling like you have been hunted down like a witch and that you feel cut off like you are with your mother. That must be a very strong trigger. What sorts of things do you do for yourself when you are feeling triggered?

My heart goes out to you and I hope that all here feel a sense of peace very soon.

Turtle

quote:

I am feeling hurt, condemned and ostracized but as if I am somehow beyond consideration.

I know how that feels. That's how I used to feel all the time around here. It's not a very good feeling.

quote:

I just wish I understood why there is the rush to protect one member, while it is open season on others.

TAS was talking about herself. Always. She never judges anyone. She never comments on anyone's behavior. For me, that's the difference. Most of it was also unsolicited. That's huge for me. Yes, she did ask you to explain that one comment but most of what was written afterwards (not just by you) went way beyond answering that quesiton. The whole thread went off on a tangent. What happened is that after you posted what you posted, then other people started to offer their feelings as well - and not in regards to the original question that was posed. It wasn't just you. It snowballed.

I know you think it was well-intentioned but there was a reason you have been biting your tongue. There was a part of you that knew that it might not be well-received. This isn't group therapy. We lose so much of the nonverbals via text and email.

There are so many other people who post needing help and advice and perhaps even feeling ignored. TAS's threads always seem to generate a lot of interest and traffic. It's hard to understand why, if these people were feeling frustrated, why they just didn't turn their attention elsewhere? (Sorry TAS)

quote:

I am also wondering why it is somehow a terrible crime to offer an opinion, not in harsh terms and openly acknowledging that it may be off base, but it is acceptable for people to criticize those comments and the people who made them with no regard for their feelings or even the benefit of the doubt that their motivations were well-intended.

Some people are highly suggestible. What others say have a HUGE impact on them. You have a very strong voice. You are very verbal. It's just the way it is. Think about how you would have felt if someone told you in year 5 of your therapy that you weren't ready or willing to engage in therapy? Other people would have been able to blow that off but I would have been crushed if someone said that to me. There was even reference to it being a waste of her money - even after she herself said she couldn't live right now without therapy.

But, for me, it wasn't just about what you wrote AG. The whole direction of the thread changed after you said what you said. TAS started to think that EVERYONE hated her and wanted her to go away and stop posting and that's why she started the second thread. That's the reality. That's how she felt. Is that what everyone here really wants? Do we really want people to feel judged and ostracized like AG feels? That's certainly not what I want.

It's my opinion that if someone feels hurt by someone they should approach them via PM and/or include a moderator if they are scared to do so by themselves. I'm not comfortable with these public expressions of discontent. I was told by someone else that she'd feel unsafe if she could not express her opinions publicly of how others interact with her. That makes me feel unsafe.

It's also my opinion that posters should reply to the question the thread starter posed and not get into personal opinions, unless asked. Sometimes people do go off on tangents but usually in very harmless ways.

That's my point of view. You sound sincere in wanting to understand and I offer this in that vein. I don't want to get into a debate about this and won't be coming back to respond.

SD,
Thank you for responding so quickly and letting me know that it clarified my position for you. I hope the dust settles soon also.


Turtle,
Thank you for your kindness and compassion. I do know that a lot can be lost in text. And I know that it is risky to offer advice (if I didn't know before I certainly know now ) but in the past a real strength of these boards, in my opinion, was that other people did offer insight and suggestions. If we were all doing it all correctly, I doubt that many of us would be in therapy, and I very much include myself in that. So people normally did offer more than just support, and I know that many people have found that helpful. I know I did, and I know that Anon said that in her posts. It may be that in my absence, the boards have shifted and expectations are different. I am not sure I agree, but I have also not been around much and if that is the expectation I should either conform to it or stop posting.

And as far as being triggered, I have, for once had good timing, and have a therapy session today. As the subject was already going to be feeling deeply ashamed of myself, this gives me a lot to work with. Thank you again.

RT,
I hope this is seen as an attempt to work through a rupture. I have tried to be open about what I understand were my contributions to the conflict.

quote:

The whole thread went off on a tangent. What happened is that after you posted what you posted, then other people started to offer their feelings as well - and not in regards to the original question that was posed. It wasn't just you. It snowballed.

quote:

Some people are highly suggestible. What others say have a HUGE impact on them. You have a very strong voice. You are very verbal. It's just the way it is.

Liese, you have indicated that you will respond no further, but I would have wanted to clarify what you meant here. So I will answer what I believe you said, with apologies if I misunderstood.

These statements seem to be saying that I am responsible for other people's actions. In fact, I find I am consistently getting this twin message of "how dare you set yourself up as an authority" (which I have never made any claim to be) followed by "you need to understand the impact of what you say and be very careful." Which is it, am I setting myself up as more powerful or not taking enough responsibility?

There has also been a very strong theme of everyone defending TAS right to be herself and express herself the way she wishes to. Yes, I am a verbose person with a strong voice. Does that mean I have no right post? Or I need to change myself in order to do so? Again, I feel like I am being asked to adhere to a different standard.

I am not happy that TAS felt the way she did. I have apologized both here and in private. It was certainly not what I wanted. But do we truly intend to make ourselves responsible for someone else's feelings? I have feelings about what you are writing to me, but I feel like they are my responsibility. Again, I thought I took reasonable precautions to acknowledge that what I was saying might be difficult to hear, that I knew it might be off base, and I honestly, genuinely thought it might be helpful. I was obviously devastatingly wrong. But I did not know that beforehand. I did not think to myself "wow, this will be really devastating to hear so let me destroy TAS's sense of self, this will be fun." I truly believed that possibly she was not permitting herself to take a breather and step back. Again, obviously I was wrong, but I did not know that beforehand.

And Liese, in my recollection her statement that she could not live without therapy came after what I said.

quote:

It's my opinion that if someone feels hurt by someone they should approach them via PM and/or include a moderator if they are scared to do so by themselves. I'm not comfortable with these public expressions of discontent. I was told by someone else that she'd feel unsafe if she could not express her opinions publicly of how others interact with her. That makes me feel unsafe.

I'm not particularly fond of them either. I stepped back and was not saying anything. But I saw a lot of posts going up, on open forum, ostensibly in support of TAS that contained a lot of comments about what was said to her, with very thinly veiled comments about my behavior (at least I thought they were). Since those statements were not made privately, I felt the need to respond to them publicly.

Thank you for responding, I really do appreciate that you took the time.

AG

(((AG))) Thank you for your honesty and sharing how these recent events have affected you. I'm sorry you're feeling hurt.

Liese, I agree with much of what you said, especially the part about public expressions of hurt resulting from a specific person. I've noticed a trend of that in recent months, and the passive aggressive nature of them is unsettling and disheartening to me. I also think these situations should be handled privately.

I will say, though, that sometimes the "tangents" that threads go on can lead to valuable discussions and/or insights. In relation to TAS' threads, I think the questions and opinions offered weren't to intentionally steer the thread away from the original question but to get a better understanding of TAS' feelings and to make suggestions/observations about things that, perhaps, she wasn't previously aware of. So I would hesitate to enforce that kind of expectation, that we cannot go off on tangents, because they can sometimes be very helpful.

All of that being said - in a way, I actually find all of this very wonderful. Do we all see what is happening here? So many people here are concerned about the best ways to help each other that it has caused disagreement, but even these conversations will serve to help someone. I think that's pretty awesome. If we're going to disagree about something, it may as well be about the best way to help and understand others.

Sorry Kashley, I cross-posted. Thank you for everything you said. And I agree that so many people concerned about the best way to help each other is a really wonderful thing.

AG

Just to clarify I don't think giving advice is a bad thing I just think that it is more risky than simple support. It's good to assess if you can take the flack you might get back with advice giving. I mean I say that to myself too. Some days I am not as strong as other days!!

Hugs to all here.

Sorry to delete, but I decided my post, while honest about how I feel about being on the other side (judged for trying to help in a way that didn't end up being helpful), may not be in the best interest of others who are hurting, and only escalate discord. I'm scared about unintentionally hurting anyone again and scared about getting hurt/judged for any mistake in what I say. Vulnerability, to risk to share your real feelings, is such a hard thing for all of us here, whose trust has been so badly betrayed. I am deeply saddened if something I said or did triggered that in anyone else. I know, or at least believe, no one here would intentionally hurt me. I hope that I conduct myself in such a way that others can believe the same of me. Love to you all.

Cat - I agree with your friends. Your direct honesty (and many others' here) to me has really helped me grow on a lot of occasions. You're one of my inspirations for risking to give my opinions when I think it might be the best way to help people. So, I just wanted to say thank you, for that, as an aside. There are a lot of things I would never have seen if not for others taking those risks and I thank all of you for that.

I don't think anyone should feel judged or left out. In trying to protect one person, others were hurt. I'm sorry to the extent that I contributed to that.

Maybe we just need some conflict resolution rules in place. If the majority agrees that it's in the forum's best interest to be able to say publicly how another interacts with us, then I will abide by that. I find it hard to swallow personally but at least I know what the "rules" are and I will keep my mouth shut in the future. In the alternative, if you have a conflict with someone or feel hurt or whatever, you should contact them privately. If things go south, then a moderator could be brought in. Or if someone is getting publicly snarky, a moderator could be brought in. Whatever rules anyone can think of that would help minimize the hurt around here and help make people feel safe. Maybe if someone breaks the rules 3 times, they would have to take a week-long break to chill and maybe work it out with their therapist.

I'm just throwing this stuff out.

I think it is quite tricky to tell someone what I think they should do or need to do or how they should be doing therapy and not have it all go wrong - both in what I intended and how they take it. Generally, I find it prudent to respond by saying how I would do something or approach it, rather than telling the other person how they need to do it or by telling another that they are not engaging in therapy or whatever. I am not a frequent poster on this forum, but I am on another one - and people can get a bit intense about their positions/belief/advice. For me, I prefer to/react better/ have a better chance of hearing if I have the space to consider what someone else has done and see if I think it fits me or not rather than be told what I should be doing. So I then try to approach others that same way.

I, personally, am fine with the rules that are in the rules of the house section. I believe in personal responsibility. I have no problem avoiding posting in someone's threads or only discussing something via PM if that is someone's preference, but I'd like the person to be willing to tell me if they'd like that.

This means a risk, I know, but if someone has a problem with something I'm doing or saying, I find it confusing and hurtful to have it triangulated through a third party and would prefer to have them discuss it with me directly. If they just want someone (other than myself) to talk to about how what I did or said made them feel, that's a great idea to get support from someone who makes them feel safer. However, if there is going to be any sort of confrontation about something, it coming through another route rather than directly triggers me badly, personally, because it is just like dynamics in my family, where people get talked about behind the scenes and then a third party ends up being the one who tells you someone is upset/mad at you...and sometimes the triangulation resulted in a lot of inaccuracies, and still does.

That is just my personal opinion and preference for how I like communication to be. I think there are a lot of options someone can pursue if anything written is upsetting: get a moderator involved if it breaks the rules, get support elsewhere, confront the person directly about it (in a caring way), express how they feel on the forum, talk to their T, etc.

I think, personally, it's best if we leave it to each person to decide and, again, take responsibility for how they want to resolve conflicts they have. If that means getting help from an objective third party, great. However, I don't think we should have to force a bunch of different people, with different personality, different triggers, etc., to all interact in a uniform way that benefits some, but not others.

Shouldn't we be allowed to choose how to interact, so long as it doesn't violate the rules about threatening, harassing, etc.? And if, despite following the rules, someone gets hurt inadvertently and wants it resolved, shouldn't they be encouraged and supported to have a voice, rather than encouraged to adjust the whole environment so that the most injury-prone people (of which I am one!!!) never gets hurt? It's kind of the same as being in therapy, going in knowing that relationships are going to sometimes hurt, and figuring out how to deal with it.

The types of rules we're talking about here are stricter than those put on my four-year-old for interacting with her peers at school. If I always dealt with Boo's hurts for her and never let her work through what it feels like to be disappointed or angry, before fixing the circumstances, she'd never ever grow! It can be maddening and painful to stand back in a supportive, rather than intervening, role while someone you care about is feeling hurt. But, that's part of growth, isn't it? I say this as a mom and as a therapy client.

I want those here who have been denied a voice over the years, who have been betrayed by those that should have been trustworthy, to learn that it is safe to speak with safe people. Not everyone is going to get things right all the time, and some people (we learn to identify them over time), are in fact not safe. But, we don't learn to tell the difference or to relate to fallible, yet safe, people if we live in a maze of rules to keep ourselves safe by never being vulnerable.

I've had people PM me before and say, "Hey, could you edit or delete" such and such post or, "Could we take this conversation private." To my knowledge, I've always complied when someone feels safer with that. I've had to send PMs like that, talking about diagnosis stuff extensively off-line, because it was too scary to do in public. Or taking a disagreement offline, because I was scared that the banter was harmful to the forum. But, if I want those things, I expect to be held to asking for them, not to live in a world with so many rules that I don't need to speak. That is the world I made for myself that I am using therapy to escape right now!!!

I think treating members as responsible parties who are capable of communicating on their own behalf their needs and preferences is a better option than, for example, overly regulating the forum with a set of complicated rules that say exactly what types of things you can say to someone, when, and where.

Personally, I probably would stop participating if things became overly regulated. We're never going to prevent everyone from getting hurt at all any time. I get hurt all the time in relationships, including on here, and have to choose whether the benefit is worth the risk of getting hurt. To me, so far, it has been.

I think the rules in "Our Mission" make it pretty clear what sort of behavior is not acceptable around here. I also think it's reasonable and overall positive for others to post how they feel about the how the forum works, as we are doing here.

Personally, when all that stuff goes on behind the scenes and not openly, it makes me nervous, but obviously I wouldn't try to impose something that prohibits someone from communicating in the way that makes them feel more comfortable. Sometimes, if I am talking about something very personal, I prefer PM, so I totally understand if some things are hard for others to do outside of PM.

I don't know if what I say makes sense to anyone. If everyone, by and large, would prefer this to be a more regulated community, of course I'll accept that. It just might not be the boundaries I'm comfortable working within. And that's OK too! But, hopefully, it's OK that I gave what my opinion is.

quote:

Stoppers - Not being intense about a position, in my view, does not necessarily mean "reacting better". People can sit back, listen, and then still say something someone doesn't like. I try to use my real life examples and what I would do, too. I think that's sort of where everyone comes from - even to suggest someone is not engaged in therapy perhaps if that person had taken a break in the past because they were not engaged (which AG says she has) that could be where their ideas are coming from... we can never really know, ya know?

I was not trying to suggest I think that it is wrong to be intense. I do not think it is useful to tell someone else how they should be doing therapy, particularly if the poster has not requested such. But that is just my opinion. I do agree that, aside from being directly abusive, everyone here should be able to post in the manner they are most comfortable. I was only giving my approach and what works for me.

Just wanted to pop in and send general hugs to all and any who are feeling badly. I have to admit I have not been following this particular disharmony very closely because I have been preoccupied by other things, but since I am normally (somewhat?) active around here I felt it might look strange if I said nothing at all. Over estimating my own importance no doubt , but seriously, I do know how these things can be triggering and wanting to send forth some empathy vibes to any who may be hurt or hurting.

I am glad you are all talking this out and hope the dust settles for everyone soon, as others have said.

Similar to HIC I've been wrapped up in my own bubble and not following this closely. But I did post around the time AG did on the pertinent thread. Personally speaking I want TAS to be able to use her therapy to get better, but of course it is up to TAS to decide what she does and how she uses the forum here. TAS if I said anything to upset or alienate you I'm sorry. And if this happens to anyone else please let me know. It's so easy for ruptures to spiral out of control in the online world. Hugs to everyone who is embroiled in this xx

quote:

Also, I think most posts imply in a way whether they directly mean to or not, a sense of how to communicate in or how to leverage therapy, I guess I don't agree there because I feel it's still an acceptable way to discuss (and works for them).

I think it would be impossible to share much at all about such an intimate experience as therapy without communicating our opinions on: we we think therapy IS; how we think it should be in terms of basic, accepted standards and in terms of our own experience; ways to work through confusion/frustration about shared/common therapy experiences (i.e. transference and attachment are huge ones on this forum); specific things we've learned that have made our therapy more effective. While we may not intend to send the message, "Your therapy has to look like mine or like I think your should be," I guess that's what sometimes gets heard. Sometimes it really just is that we see something of our own experiences in the other person and want to share how we related to it.

I know that's what a lot of my posts mean to do, and they might "look like" giving authoritative advice, even though my intention is to say, "This is how this looks to me from the outside and this is how I handle(d) a similar situation." I would probably post very little at all if I couldn't write anything that might be interpreted as advice, because in sharing what we believe to be true or effective from our own perspective, we cannot help conveying an opinion, which runs the risk of being perceived as a critical judgment on someone else. If I never did that, sure, I'd be at less risk for relational hiccups, but I'd have no opportunity to be known by anyone.

I have a family in which the only acceptable thing to do is encourage people, even when they are doing some really self-sabotaging (or toxic to others) behaviors, or else you will get attacked. You have to agree with them all the time or offer support for their feelings, but never say anything you think or feel that is different, unless you want to risk a world war of sorts. So, while giving support and standing back from sharing anything else might be a great practice for someone else here, it reinforces some awful stuff for me, keeps me relating in a dysfunctional way that I learned a long time ago. I'm not saying it's dysfunctional for every single person to primarily focus on supporting. I'm saying, in my case, it has been a past part of my pathology that I've been working against and it's not healthy for me. I do support, and often, when I feel like that's the best thing I have to offer and what is most needed. Again, it comes down to judgment calls on everyone's part about what works best and is healthiest for them. As you can imagine, when you're caught in the middle of a conflict, any everyone on both sides needs you to support their point of view, it can start to tear you apart, psychologically.

I think as dangerous as it is to give advice to others, it is equally dangerous to assume mal-intent from others. I like to give the benefit of the doubt, especially when others state their intentions directly. Just because my T hurt me doesn't mean he intended to do it. Just because he hurt me doesn't mean anything he said was actually wrong or inaccurate. I sometimes may interpret something he said as intentionally hurtful, but my feeling that way doesn't make it true. It is relational dynamics. And sometimes, mistakes are made. Then mistakes get addressed.

Although we have a different relationship with each person and a different approach to dealing with them, hopefully we afford them the same consideration when we express ourselves. I mean, I hate to say it, but I can relate to the feeling that there are different levels of expectation at times, of who should be able to deal with confrontation (tolerate hurt feelings) vs. not. That's probably not intentional and just more relational dynamics playing out, but it's something I know I need to think about more often.

I'm sorry, I think I'm the one actually posting way too much in this thread. I post, because this forum matters to me and feeling heard and understood, and like I can hear and understand the points of others, is important to me. People don't have to agree with me for it to be safe for me to post here. But, my having my own (and everyone getting to have their) opinions and ways of interacting that work for each individual, without being judged and criticized for them, is important. Clarification: Not that we can't say, as Cat mentioned, "OK, I totally disagree with that," but that we are not critical toward the person for thinking differently.


Also, HIC, GE, thanks for just touching in and saying you care. I definitely value your participation in any capacity that you're able to offer.

I haven't read everyone's post here today yet. Particularly I need to catch up on the second page.

I just wanted to add that I have been posting on line in discussion forums for about 18 years. I have been in art discussions, therapy, political etc. At first I was so intense and my feelings got hurt often. I also got a lot of feedback about my posting style and it wasn't always good. I found that I frequently insulted people.

The biggest lesson I have learned concerning criticism or advice? Take what you want and need and leave the rest.

Hi It's CTL. I've eleminated my other account because it had mod pro ledges and I didn't want anyone to worry that they were being misused, I know that has been a concern before with others. Mods feel free to delete this account as I won't be returning o the board again after seeing this thread. Before I go I wanted to set a few things clear that seem to have been misunderstood.

Firstly, I never said AG or any member here was wrong for anything. The PM that started this actually had nothing to do with AG and I told her that. She chose to send out PMs that thn led to her being reprimanded. Had she let me explain what was happening perhaps this thread where Iam being slyly attacked would not be here. For the record I never said that the suggestion to use caution was in fact a rule that was being implemented. I simply asked to use caution because we weren't therapist. I stand by that. I also made it clear that any member that had a question could ask me. Two people PMd to say thank you for the thread. Not a single other member did. In fact I asked members if it was clear and essentially I got, no constructive response. Instead, I suddenly got turned into a villain via PMs that were then reported to me. Not sure if that was purposeful but whatever. So I decided, you know, I really don't need the added stress. I like the members but I don't like seeing all the negative PMs so, I withdrew my suggestion to use caution and stepped away from the forum only to find that a thread is launched essentially slapping me in the face. An entire community speaking on a rule that wasn't even a rule when Not a soul bothered to ask me to clarify where I was coming from.

This isn't a post on being judged its a quiet finger pointing session with smiling faces, at least that is what it feels like to me. Half of the responses on this thread aren't even accurate. I am not this big bad scary third person monster that people are claiming I am. If someone reports a PM its addressed plain and simple. It really doesn't matter what's being said in this thread... I e s the PMs.

You guys can sit here and debate a rule that never existed and listen to half truths and veiled finger pointing designed to make me look less than who I am but I just found out that the little girl murdered in our home town is a family friend so Iam gonna go deal with right now, you guys go ahead and keep politely discussing how horrible I am without actually saying it.

Just so it is clear, while I did misunderstand it as a rule the first time, I accepted it wasn't once you explained. Everything posted about making rules in this thread is actually related to one member's suggestion that we do vote on the best way to communicate, and then make a rule. I'm sorry you feel like fingers are being pointed at you now. It's like a chain-reaction. That makes me sad. My biggest negative feeling was that after there was the suggestion (which I did wrongly interpret as a rule) that no one advise, a bunch of people started agreeing, it seemed, "Yeah, that's the better, the right way, to post," and I felt like that was a judgment against others who posted differently. I'm sorry if my posts here have been misunderstood as singling anyone out. I was being vague in the hopes nobody would feel accused, because again, whether or not I agree with someone, my feelings are my responsibility.

I do want to say we need to be careful about posting about (specific) PMing on the forum, as there are rules on that...which is why I like things to be discussed publicly, since I know I'm not supposed to say, "Such and such PM happened." It's not fair, because you can't defend yourself based on what was said in PMs very well, and also, not fair that you were subjected to having to mod PMs containing stuff about you. That must have been hugely hurtful, and I'm sorry.

It feels like opinions that are about me and MY feelings are feeling to others as if they are about them, so maybe it would be wiser for me to bow out. For example, maybe this last post was a lot about me, or maybe nor, but now I feel like the finger is pointing my way...it's never-ending. I don't want anyone else to feel bad because I am trying to learn to have my own mind and practice it. Sorry.

Not much time right now as we are dealing with a crisis with my daughter. CTL none of this was meant for you. You dealt with me fairly and reasonably; I felt that any chastisement from you was properly given. I was genuinely sad to see you go. I was referring to posts written elsewhere on the forum. I pulled the quotes I did, not to single out Irish girl but as I said I thought they were representative of what was being said.

I'm sorry this was an attempt to respectfully allow myself a voice while discussing the situation. I have done my best not to be provocative but evidently failed.

I appreciate everyone's involvement in the thread. But I am going to withdrawal now. I will just concede that I must have been blind to my own bad behavior, my apologies to all I have hurt.

after a long day at work and coming to my home away from home i find a train wreck. i don't think this is necesarry as i think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion. yeah, i think it's important that people voice their opinions and feelings, but with so many people it's hard to moderate. i certainly don't envy the moderators (whoever is left ... *kicks at dust*) i don't believe there was a witch hunt. i don't believe people ask questions to frustrate others. i'm not going to say any more because it WILL be misconstrued. all i want to say is i'm sorry so many people are hurting right now in an environment that they go to for comfort. i've seen this place bounce back from conflict before and i know i will witness it again. i just hate the ghost-town feeling when this shit hits the fan, cuz i know everybody's heart is in the right place. i know that one by one people will come out again. start to feel safe again. can i just send hugs to whoever needs them right now? i know i'm one of 'em

((CTL))

to everyone!

Hello (((All)))
I'm sorry I've missed whatever has happened here to cause so much hurt!! Some of you I know well and cherish and others I don't know well, but I do know that most of our hearts are so open and caring and sharing. Please don't be so hurt you delete your posts - right, wrong, indifferent - whatever each of us has to say MATTERS!!! And PLEASE no-one leave this forum because of misunderstandings, disagreements or anything like!!

Particular msg - B R E A T H E!!! xx

s

((((((Poppet))))))

100%

We ALL screw up sometimes. It's inevitable.

"he who never makes a mistake never makes anything"