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Hi everyone,

I've not said too much on here about my background; but the other week my T suggested to me that I ask my sister if she could jot down any thoughts or memories of our upbringing. So I asked her, and what I've quoted below is her e-mail to me just as she wrote it with only the names removed of course.

Just wanted to put it out there to share with you really.

quote:
Hi

Thought I would take advantage of a quiet moment to put some ideas down on paper.
I suppose in one sense we had a fairly conventional 1960s upbringing, with Dad going out to work and Mum staying at home to look after us. Dad allowed her the freedon to bring us up in whichever way she chose, he never interfered or criticised her in any way. When our nan expressed concern one time about how we were being treated, Dad told her politely but firmly not to interfere. Mum was a strict disciplinarian with a quick temper and little patience, whereas Dad was kinder and more relaxed. We certainly grew up knowing right from wrong, but probably behaved well out of fear of Mum's temper. In addition, Mum seemed completely unable to express any kind of positive emotion, so we grew up in an environment that was totally devoid of love and affection. Apart from the necessities of feeding and changing us, she went out of her way to avoid any kind of physical contact. I don't remember her ever hugging or cuddling us, sitting us on her lap, and in over 50 years she has never said "I love you". I can't remember her ever playing with us, reading us stories or even talking to us very much. We were just there, but there was no bond between us, it felt like we were a nuisance or a burden rather than a joy to her. Feelings and emotions were a completely taboo subject in our house, never expressed and never talked about. I can remember coming downstairs one morning all happy and smiley, and Mum immediately saying something to wipe the smile off my face (she knew exactly which buttons to press), and if I was unhappy she would taunt me and call me names for being miserable. On birthdays, Christmas and holidays she would make an effort to be nice to us, but it always seemed false and "put on". After Christmases and birthdays we would write thank you letters, and I was always told to put "with love from" at the end of each letter, but they were just words, I had no idea what they meant. We lived with a constant stream of criticism and humiliation, being unfavourably compared with other people's children, which undermined my confidence and self worth, and made building relationships with others very difficult.I became very shy and introverted and found it difficult to express myself verbally. I don't remember you and I playing together or interacting very much when we were young, Mum probably discouraged it. We had separate rooms and separate, very traditional, boys and girls toys, but we had the usual sibling rivalries and arguments. By our late teens, we had grown up and reached the point where we were getting on really well. Then you left home to go to college and we pretty much lost touch.

I guess like most children, we accepted what went on in our house as normal. It was only when I reached my teens and started spending time at friends' houses that I realised that something was very wrong. I slept over at a friend's house one weekend when I was about 14. She was the eldest of 3 sisters, and at bedtime all three girls hugged and kissed both their parents goodnight. I watched this in bewilderment, wondering what on earth they were doing, as I had never experienced this behaviour before. This was the point at which my mental health began to fall apart and by the age of 16 I was suffering regular bouts of severe depression. I knew that just one hug from my Mum would put it all right, just to be loved and accepted, and to feel that I "belonged". But I knew that would never happen. When we were teenagers, it felt like we were four individual people who just happened to live in the same house. There was no connection between us, no sense of family. I felt isolated and alone, adrift and with no connection to any other human being. It was a frightening place to be. I often wondered if I was adopted as I never felt like I belonged.
Dad seemed to go along with all this without question or even noticing that anything was awry. He backed Mum up if she was telling us off, and sometimes disciplined us himself. I never witnessed any show of love or affection between Mum and Dad, no hugs, kisses or hand holding. Indeed Mum viewed all that with disdain, as though it were a sign of weakness. Sometimes if Dad was playing with us or just being nice to us, Mum would put a stop to it saying he was "far too soft on those kids". He never really stood up to her or defended us. Mum could be cruel to Dad too. One of her favourite tricks was, if they were due to go out somewhere, she would constantly needle him with comments and criticisms to the point where he would lose his temper with her and they would have a row. She would then be all sweetness and light when they went out and Dad would be in a foul mood because of her, and it would ruin the occasion for all three of us.
Although Mum told me several times that she didn't like girls and never wanted a daughter, we were always treated alike, there was no favouritism. I think the only difference was in their expectation of our education and careers. Being a boy and needing a career (in their opinion) he was encouraged to do well and go to college etc. whereas according to Mum all I needed to know was how to cook, knit and sew. I must have been a great disappointment to her as I hated knitting and sewing, although I can cook!

With you out of the picture for a number of years, the family dynamic changed dramatically when I had my children. It was like flicking a switch, Mum changed overnight and all the love and affection that had been denied to us was poured out on them, a situation I found incredibly hard to deal with.

I was delighted when you came back into our lives and hope now that we will always keep in touch and remain friends.
Sis.


AV.
Original Post

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Hi,
Thanks for sharing. It hit a spot with me, our Mum's sound very similar in terms of the lack of emotion and positive feelings. Luckily for me I did not have also the negative treatment, just the complete lack of any feeling of being loved by my mother.
Interesting to see that your sister wrote this, I have often wondered if my brothers and sisters felt this lack of love or if it was just me.
Unfortunatly I have 'learnt' from my mother and find it very difficult to show my feelings to anyone. I try very hard not to be like this with my children and I think I succeed, but my poor husband often gets shut out, particularly when I am anxious.
My T thinks this emotional void I grew up in is behind my own problems. So many times I have to remind myself I am not like my mother, but a part of me feels that I am.
Very interesting to read and great of your sister to write this for you. Smiler
Thank you for sharing this with us AV Hug two Some of this so hits home with us especially about not knowing what might be considered 'ordinary' family interactions (kissing parents). We Pingles are having to learn what these feelings and behaviours are called with our T so can so identify with that 'what are they doing thing?' just recently learnt what sad meant and feels like ..

hope you are doing ok with sharing this with us here (or as ok as you can) and what your sis wrote
(((Greeneyes)))

I was pleased that my sister obliged and spent some time putting her thoughts down for me. It validated everything I'd thought had happened, and seeing it in black and white from the only other person there at the time did make me realise that I hadn't been exaggerating all in my mind, and in fact some of what she said was worse than I'd remembered. It made me sad to think that believing, wrongly, everything was normal, stopped us from supporting each other at the time we needed it most.

(((Starlight)))

I'm sorry your mother seems so like mine and maybe you'll be able to ask your siblings one day if they felt the same lack of love. For me, knowing both of us felt that way helps me to accept it wasn't simply ME being at fault.

(((Popps)))

Thank you for your reply. I know so many here have experienced similar upbringings - and far far worse in many cases. Bless you Poppet xx

(((Puppet)))

Thank you. Yes, hopefully sis and I will be able talk more together about these things in the future. So far we've only had one short chat of about an hour and we need a lot more.

(((Pings)))

Again, thank you. It's so sad when what we are experiencing we see as normal as we know no different. It meant sis and I didn't support each other at the time. Even until a year ago when T asked what my childhood was like and I replied "well, sort of average, normal really" I was still unaware of how abnormal it actually was.
Although there's little fear of my sister seeing this on here,my only concern was that T 'might' see it and know exactly who 'AV' is!!
(((AVOIDANT)))

It is amazing how much your Mom changed when your sister had children. Why was she able to be more loving only then? Criticism and humiliation is SO incredibly damaging to children.

I really connected to what your sister said here:

quote:
When we were teenagers, it felt like we were four individual people who just happened to live in the same house. There was no connection between us, no sense of family. I felt isolated and alone, adrift and with no connection to any other human being.


It was like that for me too and it IS a scary place to be. It sounds like you and she have the chance to become close to each other.
AV, thank you for sharing that. I do hope that you and your sister can become closer going forward. I think it was nice of her to write out her feelings about what happened growing up and that you found some validation in her memories. In my case, my sister has very different memories and opinions about our childhood and sometimes I feel like I'm crazy and nothing bad ever really happened. I just made everything up and I have a "vivid" imagination... which is what my mom always told me.

Much of what you wrote really resonated with me. My mom would always ruin any family outing and then when we would all get upset from her behavior she would get mad at us! She was also highly critical and never had a compliment for any of us. I think this is why I want to be invisible so often. She was too much involved in my life and it caused me (and my sister) great difficulty in individuating from her. Yet there were times that she was kind and made us great things to eat. She passed away 4 years ago and I still am trying to figure out this complicated grief I have. After doing some reading I have decided that if my mom was not narcissistic she at least had some very strong traits of NPD.

BTW, I don't know how old your sister's kids are but narcissists love babies and toddler's that they can control and who pour love on them. It's just when they get older that they become problems for the narcissist.

Hugs
TN
((((Liese))))
I didn't know the answer to your question as to why my mum could love her grandsons when they born until I read TN's reply and did a bit of research!!

Yes, my sister and I have the chance to become closer to each other now and hopefully we'll take advantage of that.

((((TN))))

Thank you!!!! You have no idea what an eye opener your reply has been to me. I had NO idea that my mum could be, or was, narcissistic; but as soon as I googled 'narcissistic mother' I realised that is EXACTLY what she was, and still is.

These words from the web simply confirm the way BOTH parents were.

quote:
What are the hallmarks of maternal narcissism?

An inability to give love to, and show empathy toward, the child.


quote:
How would you describe the typical husband of such a mother?

The spouse has to revolve around her, often, in order to stay in the relationship. He may practically worship her. That means he may never help or protect the child who is being ignored. Some fathers I've talked to realize the damage being done to their child, but feel that they can't do anything about it. Others seem to not be aware


Gosh, SO MUCH of what I have read so far makes absolutely perfect sense to me now. Thank you so very much for pointing me in the right direction with this; just knowing what lay behind the abuse makes it a little simpler to work out how to deal with it now. Hug two

AV.
(((AV))) -

Thank you for sharing the email from you sister. I teared up reading it. I didn't have exactly the same scenario growing up, but similar, and the effects it had on me were similar to what your sister explained. Not to make this about me, but just wanted you to know your not alone in how you feel. Big Hugs to you...
((((Kmay))))

Thank you for your kind words. No worries at all about you saying how similar the effects of your upbringing were to those my sister described. I'm only sorry that you had to suffer so much as well.

I'm still getting to grips with the realisation that our mother has a narcissistic personality, and am wondering if my sister already thinks along those lines or if I should talk to her about it. First port of call, as ever, will be to talk to T about it.

's to you Kmay

AV.
((( AV ))) it's very brave of you to share your sister's words. this sounds very similar to my family. i come from a large family, and for awhile some of us shared rooms, but later we had our own rooms and were pretty shut out from one another. we always knew dad did not like children (yet he had 8 of them!) and that mom preferred boys. so, although that doesnt' sound terrible, when you think of it it's two stikes against you from the get go. 1. i am a child 2. i am a girl. i couldn't control either one so was left feeling like a total failure because i was born a child and a girl. i'm rambling so i'll stop, but i wanted to let you know that i appreciate your post and i can totally relate.
(((AV)))

That was good of you to share and I am sure the validation from your sister must mean heaps for you.

Regarding your mother being a narcissist. You know what I found when you finally attach a word to what you know or went through? I found it takes your breath away. One part of you feels relieved the other bewildered and unsure if the word really fits. At least with your sisters validation of events it will help you.

I think you are lucky to have that open communication with your sister. May you both heal.

B2W
((((CD))))
It's really sad to hear that you and so many others here can relate to this thread. My sister suffered the ignomy of being told by our mum that she wasn't wanted because she was a girl and that my only saving grace was I was a boy. Her dislike of girls carried over to when my sisters children were born, and when her first child was a boy my mum was overjoyed by it. When my sister was carrying her second child she was almost petrified that it would be a girl and that our mum would turn against the baby and show favouritism to her grandson. Fortunately she had another boy and the issue didn't materialise.

((((B2W))))
Thank you; yes, my sisters validation is so important in helping to confirm it wasn't 'me' at fault somehow.

You're right about the realisation of my mothers personality taking my breath away. I'd never ever have thought of her in that way before. On the face of it; to the outside world; the description wouldn't fit because of the incidiously way my mother disguised her narcissism. Talk about two faced!! She was never overtly narcissistic and I'm sure to friends and neighbours she came across as the perfect mother of the perfect family. That we were both constantly put down and humiliated indoors and then in the next instant she would be singing our praises to all and sundry just stinks. All to boost her own sense of worth. It's the two faced deceit that really gets to me; that she could be so cruel and uncaring to her own family and yet present the antithesis of that to the outside world.

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