Athenacus, I'm so sorry that your hopes have been dashed like that. So painful.

I wonder, do you talk to your new T about how you feel about your old T? It seems like it's really central to you, and it would be really important to air it out - especially as you're now dealing with the challenges of the therapeutic relationship from the other side too.

Honestly, I am surprised that your old T would be open to such a mentor relationship. It seems like there may be a question of overlapping relationships - which I know may be an ethical concern if your professors were aware of the nature of that situation.

I wonder, though, if you are not doing an internship with your old T, is there a reason you cannot return to see her as a therapist? I get the impression that your relationship is rather intimate in the sense that she knows enough about you to offer comfort and support. Maybe this is an opportunity to reach back for what you seem to value in that relationship?

Thanks All!

Yes, Finding_my_way...I was surprised at her mention of a mentor relationship and the overlapping boundaries. She seemed pretty flexible sometimes. She even told me that maybe I could "run into her" at a certain restaurant on a certain day. That would just be for chit chat due to me "running into her" and she would not go out for coffee or dinner with me.

About the internship...It's really up to my professors and the clinic supervisors. I guess, I have some sort of say in it if I feel strongly against this clinic that the profs. want me to go to.

Yes, I have thought about going back to her as a T. I think I will make sure my internship placement is secure before I do that though.

I feel I need to talk to new T about old T. One time I did mention my feelings of missing former T. New T's reaction made me not want to bring it up again. She had a snippy tone and asked where my former T was that I was not going to her.

I woke up this morning with a bit better perspective. I have a ton to work on this weekend and I'm going to make sure to get to yoga class as well. It amazing what some sleep and relaxation will do.

Thank you all for responding and for your kind words!

yeah, I agree with Rissy. It's so clear you're hurting and miss your old T. ((Athenacus)) I'm wondering if you can't just go back to see her as a T? I am in grad school too and I would never be allowed or want to work in the same office as my T. Besides the ethical stuff (which is obviously important), I would feel too awkward putting on my professional hat around my T, who probably doesn't see me much as a professional when I'm in her office struggling to speak. Since you posted about it awhile ago, I have thought it would be a really bad idea to work with your old T. I'm glad you aren't doing an internship there. I know it's so hard now, but I seriously think it would do more damage in the long run. I think it's best to keep your client self separate from your T self. You need to be there for your clients, not there to get more time with old T, ya know? It might be too distracting to you. Hope you get things figured out..and maybe can return to your old T for therapy. Sounds like you had such an amazing relationship!

Erica,
You make a great point of me being at the clinic for my clients and not more time with former T. Excellent perspective! I see that. Last year when I left T...I was soooo new to my training that I didn't understand all of the in's and out's of therapy. I still have a ton more to learn (we're never done learning). Anyway, I had these thoughts that former T and I could see each other between clients and she could help mentor me when we both didn't have clients. I know client work comes first.
Erica-You also make a good point about the professional T in training hat versus the client role.

A few weeks ago when I asked my dept. head/prof. about internship and ethical boundaries with family members' past clinics in my city, she said that the professors would never ask me to do an internship at a clinic I went to in the past or where a family member went. I knew that and still there was this little piece of me that wanted to work at former T's clinic. I like the way it is run, the office staff, and the general feel of the office. Oh well...
I will probably end up either going back to old T for a therapy or just letting it go and moving on. Since I live in a somewhat small community and old T and I only live a few miles apart, I will probably see her at some point around town.
That's happened before (on 4th of July/Independence Day). We just chit chat and catch up for about 5 to 10 minutes and say goodbye.

Athenacus... I'm going to go out on a limb here. I've seen you posting about your old T off and on for quite a while, and I remember back to when you were seeing her and the difficulties you had in deciding to stay or go. I have always felt for you on this because I have often felt similar longings with my Ts, and I know how deep it runs.

Here's what I think. Those longings come from a very childlike, vulnerable place in us. It's hard to let it really show, how vulnerable it is, how scary it can be, how painful it can be, how lost we feel. It's easy to be avoidant about it, and I imagine it's especially hard when you feel like you are already supposed to kind of be a professional. like you should be 'grown up' already or something.

I'm wondering if part of the longing you had to be in a mentor relationship, rather than a therapy relationship, with old T was partly about that desire to BE grown up, to push the vulnerability away and secure the relationship on more equal terms. And yet the powerful childlike longing still comes through in the desire to see her however you can, the wish for her to stretch the relationship, the terrible feelings of missing.

I think this is really rich and important material to bring into your current therapy... I'd say there's more here under the surface, and some wonderful possibilities for really having your deepest wishes heard and seen and gently acknowledged out in the light. If you walk towards your fears here your future clients will one day thank you for it.

Athenacus) First of all, congrats on your internship. Sounds like a good plan to make sure your internship is secure, and like you said, you are having thoughts about going back to see you old T, sounds like a good thing all the way around for you.

Athenacus I have to say it really helps me to see you struggle to understand all this and stuff. I don't mean that I'm happy your in pain. I just mean I have such a tendency to just believe other people, especially my T, have everything together and don't struggle the way I do. Seeing you struggle with your feelings for old T and new T and your new life with dating and raising kids, helps me keep things in perspective.

Thanks so much for being so open here.

Good luck in your internship. Hopefully you'll end up loving this new clinic!

Jillann

Thank you all for your perspectives and supportive words!

Jones-Wow! I think you might be onto something. Yes, it's kind of a childlike wanting and needing. It's also a wanting to be mentored in my professional field. Former T was the one who brought up the mentor relationship. I was hesitant (and still am to some extent) to ask for what I need. My former T offered to help me with homework if I needed it. She would say things indirectly that made it sound like I could get her professional opinion on my papers or she would help me network. She even told me what books to read before I started grad school and gave me some ideas on what my grad school profs were probably looking for (former T is a prof. at a different college). I just didn't take her up on those things (I did read some of the books though). I was afraid to (hmm..need to explore that). Fear of criticism and rejection maybe. I need to work on those things. Thank you for the reminder to walk toward my fears as it is good for me and my clients!

eme-Thank you for your encouraging words!

Jillann-Thank you for your kind words as well. I was thinking last night as I was sitting with a client how I wish I could tell him that there is hope and that he can survive his current life struggle because I am living proof of that. I've been there, so I can empathize with him. Since it was our first meeting I decided not to disclose anything about myself. I listened, connected, reflected, restated, asked open and closed questions, and summarized. I will use some self-disclosure at some point with him.
I know when my former T and my current T use self-disclosure, (as in they can relate to what I'm struggling with and their life hasn't been perfect and that they are not all knowing) it has helped me.

Hi Athenacus.

I so relate to those childlike wants & needs coming up around professional life. The possibilities of professional mentorship can bring up such conflicts between the adult & younger parts of ourselves.

I wonder if you feel a little bit abandoned by the way your old T responded to you in encouraging the mentorship hopes and expectations, leading you to give up the therapeutic ones?

Great question, Jones! Sometimes during sessions I really didn't have any burning problems and my life seemed pretty stable, so she taught me about authors, theorists, films, and things she would teach in her classes. She also told me about aspects to her job that are behind-the-scenes and informed me about the profession and things that she does that clients don't see.
There were times when I would come to session and needed her as therapist because I had some issues that I needed to deal with. I would say for about four months before I terminated with her she kept mentioning termination in a subtle way (my insurance with her was going to be up at that time..unless we both did paperwork and begged the company for more sessions). As we neared the end of my insurance allowed sessions, I started having personal trauma issues replay in my head, I had started grad school in addition to having more court battles with my ex husband. Some of those issues resolved about two months before I terminated.
I was really struggling with leaving T. I knew my insurance plan said I was done and I told myself that I was going to leave and be done. T questioned if I was ready and said she would be willing to talk to the insurance company to see if I could get more sessions. I reminded her that she brought up interning at the clinic and that I couldn't be her client if I had a chance at that. She back peddled on that. I was trying to figure out if she didn't want me to go because she didn't want that loss of income from my sessions (hardly any money to her though due to my insurance plan) or if she didn't want me to leave for her own needs. I think I told myself these things so it would be easier for me to make the decision to leave.

About abandonment...A few sessions before we ended she asked if I felt abandoned. I said no because at that time I didn't feel that way. I also knew due to ethics she had to make sure she wasn't abandoning me.
I'm not sure I feel abandonment now either....I feel in some ways we didn't resolve some things in our relationship. We glossed over some ruptures instead of really repairing those (that's my feeling anyway). I know that is partly my fault for not addressing it and telling her my feelings about certain things that happened between us. Two weeks before I left T, I took an exam in one of my classes, panicked, blanked out, and didn't do well at all. I had just finished with T when my professor approached me and asked how I was doing and recommended I get counseling due to my panic and test grade. I felt I couldn't go crawling back to former T due to a nice termination session and the end of my insurance plan paying. I made a call to my college's health center and started up with a new T who is free with my tuition. She has been wonderful in so many ways. We don't have the chemistry like I did with old T, but she can be incredibly helpful and caring. I think I need to type up some deeper thoughts and feelings for my next session with new T. I tend to stay on the surface with her a lot of the time. Usually because I have to stay composed for classes and clients right after session.

Wow! I just typed a lot. I think I better log off of here and put that typing effort toward my two papers that are due Monday.

Thank you all for your responses!

A bit of an update!
I messaged former T a thank you a couple weeks ago and she finally responded back. It was a quick note just saying nice to hear that school is fine and take care.

What do I do now? Do I send her another message or leave it alone? My gut(emotional mind?) says message her...probably because I miss her and want to tell her another thing about my possible internship site at a different clinic.
My logical mind says...let it go...I terminated with her over a year ago now...
My emotional mind/gut says that she is still someone I want in my life in some capacity...
That must be that child-like aspect to me...



Well, I've asked two of my friends (one who used to work as a T) and both said let it go...
it sounds like she just wanted to let me know that she got the message...and not an invite for more conversation.

I feel for you, Athenacus. Last week I finally got the guts to email my former T to ask if she would consider getting together just to chat. It had been almost 2 years so I felt I'd waited long enough. She said she was too busy which I basically believe because she is a single mother. Even though it was a REALLY nice no, I still cried. For me I don't think it was a young thing at all. She is a very special person and I wanted her to stay in my life. It was a real loss.

ATHEN)I feel the pain for you, and wish I could bring out the "magic wand" and make it instantaneously get better for you. The pain of leaving our T's and growing and learning "on our own" is so difficult without them. But, I think they try and eventually get us to "walk on our own two feet" because they care about us. I think moving forward independently, from our T's is not only difficult for us, but also for them. Its maybe kinda like a Mother Chick pushing her little one out of the nest. I'm not sure if any of this makes sense, but take good care, I'm thinking of you!

BLT-


I'm sorry to hear that. That must have been difficult to take that risk and get a "too busy" answer. I admire your courage to take the risk!
Thank you for responding to my post. At least I know I'm not alone in missing my former T and wanting them in our lives in some way.

Now that I'm in training to become a T, I can see things from a t's perspective (a beginner anyway) and a client's perspective. As a client of former T's this boundary and ethical thing sucks! From a counselor-in-training view I see that those are in place to ultimately protect the client and do no harm. As a T, I would have to weigh the risks and benefits of seeing a former client outside of a session, possibly consult with other professionals on what to do, and probably even document the meet up and the reasoning behind it, if I chose to go through with that.

Before I left my former T, she reminded me that if we would happen to run into each other around town, we could chit chat, but that was it. She also reminded me of a place that she frequents, if I wanted to "run into" her. I admit...I think it was a little over a month ago or so I went into the place, but she wasn't there. I ran into someone else I knew and had a nice conversation though.

Thank you, eme!

honestly, I feel like your T made it harder than it should have been for you In my humble opinion, she made a mistake offering or talking about (or even alluding to) a mentor relationship. I mean, I would SO love it if my T could be my mentor whenever I'm finished with therapy, but that's just not the way it works. That was TOTALLY not your fault. You were the client. You didn't know about ethics, boundaries, and the intricacies of the therapist-client relationship. Even with me, I'm in my 4th year of my doctoral program...it's not my responsibility to put those boundaries in place. It falls to my T, even though I've taken multiple ethics courses, etc. I think for your T to suggest that you could work in the same office as her was a mistake. Not malicious, but still. It's kept you stuck, holding out hope.

I know I'm being blunt, but I just feel for you. This wasn't your fault at all. But now with her email response, I think she's trying to keep it more professional. She didn't really leave it open for you to continue responding. I think, as hard as it is, it would be best to walk away. Leave knowing she was a great T, you had an exceptional relationship, and she helped you. If you should "run into" her at that place, then so be it. I wouldn't seek her out though. I know it's hard. I'm very attached to my T too and I know it'll be very difficult to leave her. I hope as time goes by, it becomes easier. But I think that won't happen until you really accept the limitations of your relationship with her (which maybe for your best interest should be kept very limited for some time). I hope this wasn't too harsh. I just have always felt uncomfortable reading the stuff your T said to you, as you were ending your working relationship. Hugs to you.

Thank you, Erica! Yes, I've consulted other t's in training and one other former T about my former T's weak boundaries with me (without mentioning her name or what clinic I went to), and they have all said the same thing about walking away and that it wasn't my fault. At the time I didn't know about boundaries, ethics, and many other things about the therapeutic relationship. Now, that I know...it's still hard to accept emotionally. Intellectually, I get it...just difficult on my heart.

If I get this internship at the place my professors suggest, I will be one block away from former T's office. Most of the law offices and mental health clinics are in the same general vicinity of my city.


Everyone-Thank you all for your responses!

I was in supervision the other day and my prof. was talking to another student about the client-therapist relationship and how counselors hold the boundaries and focus sessions on the client. Whatever it was she was saying was hitting me like a ton of bricks! I kept thinking about former T and how much I knew about her life and how our relationship was more like a mentorship/friendship and not exactly like a counseling relationship. There were sessions that felt that way and there were some that didn't. I guess that was confusing for me.
I came out supervision feeling like...no wonder why I'm having a hard time dealing with not going to therapy w/former T...it was like losing a best friend...and it wasn't my fault...at the time I didn't understand what counseling/therapy was suppose to be or who was in charge of boundaries. Former T should have limited her self-disclosures to me and redirected some of my questions and shifted the focus back to me.
Sometimes I felt like I was counseling her due to whatever she was going through.
ok...gotta run...

sigh.
I'm having those intense feelings of loss regarding former T. I've been reading therapy info for school that reminds me of sessions with her. I've driven past her office more frequently in the last week due to having to go to a building that's close. Also, I ran into her supervisor this past weekend. That made me think of her too. I did a not so great thing and I went to her wide open Facebook page again. why do I do that?
I felt this urge to be close to her...to still have some sort of connection.
Then, I listened to some music that reminded me of her due to an instrument that she used to play.....I cried for a while.
My brain has not been focusing well on my homework due to these feelings. I need to suck it up and get my homework done though. I have a project due tonight and I only have a couple of hours to work on it.
Thanks for reading my ramblings...

Thanks SP and BLT!


another sigh. I'm suppose to be doing homework or notes or something else, but now I'm thinking of former T again. I have a client coming in soon, so I need to be focused in a bit.
Just a few minutes ago one of my collegues (a fellow student) informed me that he might be placed for his internship in my city versus the one he lives in currently. Guess where he just said he might do his internship??? Yep, former T's clinic! I felt that sadness in my heart. I smiled and told him that it's a nice clinic with some great people in it.

Ok..time to breathe and get ready for a new client.

I'm feeling hopeful today. I had a great supervision session with my professor yesterday. I'm going to miss her in a few weeks when I'm done working with her. My prof. let me borrow a book that former T mentioned to me over a year ago. That reminded me, of course, of sessions with former T. Today, I did that not so great former client thing and looked at her Facebook page. She put up a new photo of herself! Finally a current pic that I can see when I need to feel a connection with her. When I looked at the photo I was happy to see her face and I was proud (it was a pic of her receiving an award for good deeds or something like that). I felt a little sadness knowing that I'm not seeing her in sessions anymore. I still feel hopeful that someday in some capacity I will run into her or see her in a professional setting.
Ok...I need to log off to write another paper.

(((athenacus)))
So glad you are feeling hopeful even though it is sad at times. Sounds like you're doing great work in your training!!

Thanks AH!