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32 replies

Lack of Choice and Meltdowns

True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
I need to write about this but don’t know where to start. And I may not be able to leave it up for long. Some of you know my background of being abandoned by my oldT of 2.5 years (caused PTSD) and among other ethical violations how he violated my privacy by allowing his wife to fill out my treatment plans while he swore to me that no one saw my files. She was a LCSW and worked in his office. She was also rude and condescending to me a number of times and I had a hard time dealing with her. (She also ran the social skills groups my son attended) I saw her once also looking through files in his office. That scared me but oldT swore my files were secure. My mother was also the abusive parent in my life. I have also had other unpleasant dealings with women in authority (ex. Bosses) so needless to say I have a difficult track record with females and prefer a male T.

And so… when I looked for a new T, one of my conditions was that the T was not married to another T and did not have his wife in the office. I found my current T who had a small practice with 3 other T’s (none were a spouse) and began seeing him. I was with him for about 18 months when one day I noticed a new nameplate on the office door next to his office. It was his wife’s maiden name which I believe he had no idea that I knew. There were also now brochures around the office with her picture. Evidently, she had just gotten her M.S. degree for nutrition and was now using an office in his suite. This totally freaked me out to the point that we had a huge disruption over it. I felt that he was trying to deceive me by having her use her maiden name. He knew my history and the issues with oldT. But beyond that, since that time I am in terror of ever running into her. I’m not talking just scared; I mean absolute terror that I will be annihilated. I also find that I cannot talk to him about what I need to because of her presence on the other side of their shared wall. I cannot tell him certain things because of what I know about her. I really didn’t want to know about his “real” life for this reason.

We have tried on a number of occasions to address this issue and how anxious I feel with her around. I literally RUN through the reception room and into his office when I get there out of anxiety to avoid her. I have such a strong feeling that I do not want her to know who I am or to see me there. I had been doing this for over a year. T had told me he would “protect” me and that he sees clients on the half hour and everyone else in his office sees clients on the hour so I would not run into her. I began to relax until one day after session I didn’t leave the parking lot right away because I got a phone call. I saw her come out and walk to her car. Of course, this is no one’s fault but it sent me spiraling into an emotional flashback and intense self-hatred and I had to call T. He didn’t know why I called I just needed reassurance. Things settled down after that until two weeks ago when I saw her outside the side of the building with my T chatting before my session. I was very dissociated in that session and then just after my session, before I could drive away, they were both outside again laughing and talking. This felt like a stab in my chest. It was like he couldn’t wait to get rid of me to go out to talk to her again. My session was squeezed into the time before and after being with her. Aside from that I got really scared that they were talking about me. I had a total meltdown over that and had a phone call and exchanged a few emails with T but nothing was helpful and I slid into a more debilitating depression. Some of the things T told me were that he was helping her with her “newsletter” and that she “keeps him company on his breaks”. Neither was helpful to say the least. Again we tried to talk about it and he just keeps telling me that she won’t harm me, and that he protects me and then asked what she did to harm me. He tells me she is very nice. I don’t care if she’s mother Theresa. Again I am very anxious when I approach his building. We have been working on lowering my anxiety and last Thursday we had a good session and I felt better and really worked on trusting T to look out for me.

Then yesterday in session T kept talking about how I should meet her one day. That he thought it would be a good idea and that I would get strong enough to do this and not allow her to interfere in our relationship. I got so panicked I dissociated after that and could not talk to him. When I left this was in my head and I felt so trapped by this because he was pushing me to do something I could NEVER see myself doing. I looked towards the place I saw them that time talking thinking I needed to erase those images and desensitize myself from that fear and they were there AGAIN… for real. He couldn’t even give me time to drive away before running out there again after he KNEW how I reacted last time. I melted down again and then dissociated at work so badly I could not do anything. My brain went off line and I texted T and asked him to call me. We had a ten minute call with him trying to calm me down and me asking him to swear that I would not have to ever meet her. The conversation then turned to choice.

Later when thinking of our conversation I think part of the terror relates to not having choice. I have no choice that she is there, or no choice in running into them. I have never done well when I feel like I am backed into a corner. When the choice I have is equally horrible and really there is no choice. This of course goes back to the trauma I experienced growing up, trauma that was caused by oldT’s abandonment and trauma that I have faced at work. So I am thinking that my intense reactions come from lack of control, having no choice and then having something come at me too quickly for me to process which then overwhelms me. I was crying on the phone to T that all of this was such a trigger for me and how it’s so difficult to explain to him that I feel like I’m going crazy and I don’t know how to NOT feel or react like this. I want him to make it stop. I want to make it stop. This issue whatever it is now is eating away at my trust or my belief that I can keep working with him.

Aside from this my T is just perfect for me and I really do care for him very much. We have come such a long way and worked so hard to develop this attachment. T keeps reminding me that our relationship is solid and no one will destroy that and how hard I have worked to get here and he is proud of me, etc. But I can’t keep experiencing these meltdowns and living in terror over seeing his wife. I want to add here that although I have a solid attachment to my T I do not feel any erotic transference towards him. It is a parental attachment.

Sorry this is so long. I was wondering if anyone had insight or if anyone also struggles with the choice issue. Do you get intense reactions around choice? Also, do any of you work with T’s who have spouses in the office or in a home setting and how does it impact you?

Thanks for reading.
TN
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yakusokuyakusokuMember
Hi (((TN))). I hope you are able to leave this up and get some support. I am sorry you keep seeing T's wife and I know how triggering it is for you. On the one hand, I wish you didn't have to get triggered that way. On the other hand, I do truly hope someday you're able to be free of the sort of terror that this puts you through.

I can definitely relate to the terror of women. Even though men did a fair bit of the bad stuff I experienced, I think the invalidation, manipulation, and mind-warping stuff mostly came from my mom. I could never work with a female T...or at least, I'm not there yet. Maybe if my T retires (WAY) down the line, I would try to work some of that stuff through. I get scared if older women at church even hug me or talk to me too much, especially any that give an "authority" vibe.

I also relate to the issue of lack of choice in my own way. I think when there is a lack of choice, my usual behavior is to shutdown and submit/comply. This is due to the early bad stuff from men, mostly. I learned to freeze, numb, comply, endure, to make it through. So, I respond by dissociation and numbing, rather than getting upset usually.

I think the biggest way I can relate to the feelings you are having, and the times I will get very upset and push back, argue, resist with all my might, is one particular type of "lack of choice" I sometimes get. And that is when people are telling me I can do things I feel sure I can't. Not being allowed to "can't" something is hugely triggering to me and even a simple compliment and encouragement that someone believes in me can trigger it massively. Like T thinks I would be an amazing writer, teacher, counselor...ironically, all things I thought of doing for years BEFORE being in therapy. But, when he expresses those things and argues against my "can't," I freak out and feel so unsafe. I wasn't allowed can't when I was a kid. Especially after my family split up the last time, I would have almost no help with things all the other kids would have support with. I learned early on to just take care of things, fake them, when I was lost, to the best of my ability, and never seek anything from anyone. In fact, in so many overwhelming situations (from academic ones to abuse outside the home from strangers), it never even occurred to me to seek help at all.

***TRIGGERING EXAMPLE THAT HAS BEEN COMING UP FOR ME LATELY***
When I was just barely 12 (sixth grade), I went downtown in my city and a guy started flirting with me. I thought he was a couple years older than me, because he was short, and he asked for my phone number and I gave it to him. Turns out he was 18. He started to walk with me when I left. He stopped me outside the fence of the baseball field at the park next to the high school, pushed me into it, and gave me my first kiss, attempting to stick his tongue in my mouth. I froze up, stood there, while he basically made out with me as I was motionless.
He then said he'd walk me home. I started walking and the whole way, he put his hand in my back pocket of my shorts and was rubbing and groping my backside as I walked. I lied to him and said I actually had to check in with a friend who lived on the way, so this only went on for about four or five blocks. I didn't want him knowing where I lived. I went to my friends house and he stopped at the corner right before it. My friend wasn't home, neither were her parents, but by the time I had finished faking that I was going there, he was gone, I guess trolling for other girls?
I walked home and proceeded to receive several calls a week from him asking for me. Each time, I pretended not to be myself and said that "she" wasn't home. At school, during an assembly, two tough-looking eighth-grade girls found me, and asked, "Are you Yaku? Oh, you know L, huh?" and started telling me he told them about me, that he was tough, a drug dealer, etc. I guess to intimidate me? When he called again, I basically said, "Look, every time you call, I answer and say I'm not here. You don't even recognize my voice. You should stop calling."
Thankfully, he did stop calling. I think I saw those girls a couple other times around school and they asked about why I wasn't still "seeing" L or whatever. I was terrified for months something bad would come of it. I told no one. I asked no one for help. I didn't tell my mother. I didn't tell the older sister who lived with me at the time and was the same age as this guy, possibly went to school with him the year before. I didn't tell any teacher, the principle, a school counselor. I didn't tell the police. I handled it on my own and waited for the fallout.
***END TRIGGERS***

The point of sharing that long story is that when I'm faced with what feels like a can't situation, and someone tells me I can, I freak out. Because, honestly, I don't know how the hell I survived all the "can't" situations I somehow had to muddle through on my own. It brings up feelings of lostness, confusion, terror, aloneness. So, while I don't have the same exact reaction to lack of choice, because of my freeze tendencies, I do have that reaction when someone takes away my can't (which is what your T insisting on you meeting his wife would do).

I think that you would probably have compassion on my can't, even if it were about things you KNOW I can do on my own, because of knowing where it comes from. I know your T, and everyone here, has compassion on your reaction to not feeling like you have a choice on something. I hope you can have compassion about it to, and be patient for yourself to work it through. I'm trying to do the same with my can't.

affinityaffinityMember
((((TN)))))

I'm sorry this is so hard for you. Frowner

I can understand why your T suggested meeting his wife. Sometimes we can become so afraid of something to the point that we develop a phobia about it, and then fear proceeds to control our lives. Often, confronting the fear head-on is the only way to peace.

Unless your T is forcing you to meet his wife against your will, he's not taking away your choice. However, I think your fear of her might be.

I'm not sure this is a trigger you can entirely avoid. Let's say you had a T whose wife didn't work in his same building. Would you still melt down if you saw her talking to him in the parking lot? If she came into his office to drop off his lunch? My T's wife once called me on the phone to tell me that T was sick and couldn't meet with me the next day. What if that happened? What if you saw them together away from the office? Is the issue just that she works in the same building, or is it that she's a bit more present than a picture in his wallet?

Another question: What do you think would happen if you actually met your T's wife? What would it mean for you? Is it just that it would be triggering, or do you fear a real, negative impact on your therapy or safety?

It is your T's responsibility to help you feel safe. However, I feel that there's a line of reasonability there. It is reasonable (and obligatory!) that he keep your files and other information confidential, that he act ethically, that he gives you his full attention during session, and that he meets the requirements of his licensing board. It may not be as reasonable to demand that he stop interacting with his spouse during his break times at the office, or to stop wearing black because your father wore it, or...fill in the blank.

I know these feelings leave you believing you have no choice. On the one hand, you can stay and get massively triggered. On the other, you can terminate a lovely therapeutic relationship and end up feeling just as horrible and lost. Either way, there seems to be no option that allows you to move forward and still feel good. (I totally sympathize. Hard, hard stuff.)

However, you do have a choice. You can decide to trust you T and work out these feelings for as long as it takes. Or you can decide to end the relationship and try again with someone else. Neither option is going to be easy by a long shot. But therapy on a good day isn't exactly a walk in the park.

Hugs for you.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Ouch! Affinity... that was pretty harsh. In answer to your questions...

If she worked in another building and I saw her in the parking lot with T then I would have the choice to sit in my car and wait anonymously and she would never know who I was. But if she walks out when I'm sitting in T's tiny waiting room then we are face to face and I have no where to run or hide.

Yeah if she came into his office to drop off his lunch while I was in there I would have a very real problem because that would be invading my privacy while I'm in session. If she left a bag in reception while I was in session... then no problem.

Unless you signed an informed consent form then it would not be ethical for your T to give your wife or anyone your name and phone number. That is private information. T's are not even supposed to acknowledge whether or not someone is a client. If you signed off on it then it's okay. Same with a medical doctor.

If I saw them in public (movie, restaurant) I could ignore them and walk away or in the other direction. I would have choice and would not feel trapped and again she would have no idea I was a patient.

Aside from annihilation of self, I'm not sure what I think would happen if I met her. I do fear that it will cause an end to my relationship with T or damage it in some way or change what my T thinks about me. This is whee it gets fuzzy and mixed up with past trauma and past loss.

I have not demanded that he stop interacting with his spouse nor that she move out. I have only tried to explain my feelings to him, how I get triggered and explored where this comes from. This is an extremely difficult subject because he can only say so much and I can barely bring myself to admit how badly triggred I get. Except for some initial defensiveness from T he has been very understanding and thanks me for telling him stuff because it helps us to try to unravel this.

I told my T that I felt my only choice was to leave or stay and just deal with it however I can (hide, run, dissociate,). He insists there are other things we can do. I'm not feeling hopeful right now. When I leave sessions i am so raw and bumping into them together immediately after just rips away the last skin I have left. I'm not saying he is doing something unethical, or wrong, just that I wish I didn't have her shoved in my face while I AM trying to get through this and find some stability.

Thanks for your thoughts.
TN
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Hi Ms. Control... I don't think we have met yet so welcome to the Board. Thank you for your comments. My T did know about my issues with oldT's wife but he said he never connected HIS wife coming there to those issues... mostly because he is not oldT and wife is not a T either. I do have frustration in that I tried to avoid this situation happening and it happened anyway and I get angry at myself for falling into another situation like the former one.

Yaku... thank you for making me feel less crazy. I know you can understand the "female fear". I've had abuse from male and female but I think the most damage was from the female side. You can also really understand the "can't" issue. This is something I have struggled with all my years and couldn't really articulate until I read what you wrote. When someone pushes me to do something I feel I can't I can get really panicky and hysterical. That is why I find my T's pushing me so triggering at times. He does push and he tells me he won't ask me to do something I'm incapable of... but sometimes I need more time to "get there". I do push back though when I need to now. It was the same for me as you describe. It would never occur to me to go my mom or someone for help with something and since I was a child I always had to figure it all out on my own. My T says that my intelligence "saved" me and some kids don't make it as far as I have as an adult. And if I couldn't figure it out or find the answer in a book, then I would do as you describe, fake it, pretend, avoid and try to go on. Looking back I don't know how I managed. I also had to take care of my younger sister. Thank you so much for putting words to my feelings.

Hi ElizaJ and thanks for your kind support. I managed the year by settling into a false sense of security and by pretending it was okay and I managed not to see her. This just became an issue again in the past three weeks.

Thanks again
TN
B bltMember
TN, maybe you remember when I told you that your T's wife is just a lousy nutritionist, not the evil queen ruler of the Universe? Just to point out the obvious, it seems that your fears about her are not substantiated by the evidence. In fact, you say you fear that you will be annihilated if you are forced to encounter her, something that is physically impossible. Since there appears to be no element of actual danger in the situation, I think that you are not protecting yourself by buying into the fear, but merely making the fear stronger by acting as though the threat were real. I'm not saying you shouldn't be afraid or that you have no reason to feel afraid given your history, but I am saying that listening to the fear isn't helping you and is making the fear even stronger.

Incidentally, I don't know that much about your childhood history, but something about how you are talking is making me think that maybe fear isn't the primary emotion in this situation. It almost sounds like when you see T with his wife, you're actually feeling rage or jealousy (not necessarily sexual jealousy) because of her being a perceived threat to your relationship with your T? And maybe the truth is you're afraid if you had too much contact with her, you'd be flooded with the rage or jealousy and YOU would want to annihilate HER? Or you are afraid you couldn't tolerate those feelings or that they would mean something terrible about you? I don't know, I'm just wondering if there could be some different kinds of feelings below the apparent fear you're showing.
affinityaffinityMember
quote:
It almost sounds like when you see T with his wife, you're actually feeling rage or jealousy


This crossed my mind, too.

I sincerely apologize if my last post was too harsh, TN. I don't want to minimize your feelings at all. They are totally understandable.

Something I wanted to point out from your response: you say that encountering your T's wife in the office reveals your status as his patient. However, didn't you say that there are other Ts who use the same building? If so, wouldn't she know you were a therapy client regardless of who you saw?

I'm sorry, I'm like 64,000 questions today. Frowner
shelongedforstarsinherheartshelongedforstarsinherheartMember
Dear TN, I am hoping to post a thread of my own soon and I will introduce myself a little more over there. But otherwise, you may or may not remember that I once posted in one of your threads to wish you luck with an important milestone. To make this coherent, I will repeat what I told about myself there. I experienced the loss of a relationship many years ago (not my T, but someone who was half mentor, half friend and someone I had a transference relationship with - he also happened to be a T, but not mine). That loss felt like a part of me had died. More than a decade later, I am still recovering from that loss (of myself more than the loss of relationship really). When you went through your abandonment, I cried in front of my computer, for both you and myself because I could relate to so much. At this point, I have been in therapy for two and half years and it has been very, very hard, for both my T and I. The relationship I have with her is not simple and many times, it is hard for me to discern whether it comes from her or me. But what I do know is that I have a very hard time registering good things and my mistrust tends to go through roof even on normal days. There are times, when it seems like mistrust (of anything good) is my baseline, so much so that I am barely aware of it. Yet, this work I am doing with her is very important to me and I am working had to stay in the relationship. I think that she is working hard too.

Anyway, more to the point of your post, I have recently discovered that sometimes it takes juxtaposing two situations that look and feel similar in every aspect to actually discover/experience/learn (in a right brain kind of way) that they really, truly are different. I am not sure I am articulating this as well as I would like to. To be honest, it is something that is still very complicated and confusing for me. But what I have experienced a few times recently is that when I am reliving the pain from my lost relationship (and I really mean reliving it, feeling it in the moment as opposed to remembering it) then I can turn to thought of my therapist (probably just as one would turn to one's attachment figure) and really discover, or experience in the moment, in a very here and now way, that she is a different person. She may or may not be the "perfect person" that part of me is probably still looking for, but I can really live the experience of her being a different person. In that moment, I can truly feel that she is not that person from the past. The thing is that this living, experiencing or learning in a right brain kind of way happens only when I am also really reliving the pain from the past in the present. When I went through one of these recent experiences, I had the thought that this was like walking into the heart of my terror. And then I remembered that I had probably read these few words "walking into the heard of my terror" on AG's blog (the post on disorganised attachment)*. You speak of terror too and that makes complete sense, whether it is the terror related to your experience while growing up (lack of choice, etc.) or the experience with oldT. I still have a hard time identifying what I feel, but I would say that I feel some kind of terror too in hoping, trusting good things (including those with my T). It seems to me, although I am not sure that often, the terror is covered up by some form of anger. I feel an immense amount of shame too, but that is even less recognisable than the terror and I have seen at least once, that that too, is covered by anger. That is the shape and form of my experience. Yours is probably different as far as these particularities are concerned (for instance you talk about dissociation). But I think that bottom line here seems to be walking into that place of horror, doing the very thing that seems to be "madness" itself and (hopefully) experiencing that the present situation is not the past situation. And I think that if this does happen (even to some extent), then it should probably be very liberating: life does not have to be dictated, perceived or lived through the lens provided by the past situation(s). Imagine one day being able to not have meltdowns at the thought of someone like T's wife (maybe that is precisely what your T wants for you).

The truth is I am afraid to even trust, write or suggest such a hopeful statement as the one I have just made (life does not have to be dictated, perceived, ...) even with the qualifiers that I added. I don't know what safe situations are. I am not really sure, I know what safety is and when one is really safe enough to actually walk into the heart of one's terror. It really feels like madness. I do not know those things for myself and I certainly can not know them for others. But the hope of being liberated (even to some extent) from fear, the feeling of annihilation is a huge thing and it is capable of pushing me at times. The rest of the time, the hope itself feels like the enemy, part of the madness, something to be mistrusted, something that will drive me being half alive all over again. So, I do not know whether the idea of such a hope is something that would be helpful to you or not (I hate it when others tell me to be hopeful). But what you wrote about made me think of what I have shared above. And it made me want to suggest that maybe one day (it does not have to be today, not in 6 months, not in a year, just one day in the future) things will easier and you might actually even be able to think about it (just think about it, not even do it). From what you have shared, it seems that T has actually also said one day. Maybe, for now at least, the idea is not so much about meeting her or not, but just talking about it (when you are ready). Because from what you say, just talking about it, is terrifying enough. It is walking into the heart of your terror. But you would be taking that walk with someone you trust otherwise and who has been known to keep you safe.

Oh and I HATE being pushed too. I don't react well to it all (ask my T). Similarly, I hate not having choices. I am only saying this very quickly because I am actually afraid that if I dig deeper into this, I will actually end up with a meltdown of my own, so I am avoiding the subject for now.

As is often when I read about someone else's situation and relate it with my own, I can be totally off-base. Even on the best of days, these ideas appear barely trustworthy even for myself. But I did feel like putting them out there. Maybe they will help.

In any case, I wish you the best. You have been at this, very bravely, for such a long time. You will come out of this as well.


* All this also reminds me of an article on how attachment heals on the Moments of Change blog where he talks about change happens at the cusp where the neural networks for old painful feelings and safe empathic connection feelings with T are both equally activated.

ps: I am sure you know many of these things (from other blogs, etc.) very well. But sometimes it can be helpful to be reminded of them.
catalystcatalystMember
Limited or no (acceptable/good) choices are supremely hard for me, as is being trapped. It was really bad for me when changing my job caused a change in my therapy. It was devastating.

I'm not sure what you and your T will find to help with this situation. I'm not sure what specific work is entailed - sounds like as a bond with T is stronger those things should matter 'less' but because it is disruptive to the relationship it is also making it so slow to heal through.

The mental image that came up for me was of a child in a family where the mom or dad was marrying someone new. Or a child about to become a big brother or sister. Those are situations where someone else is in a very sensitive picture and they need help to avoid feeling threatened and in maintaining assurance that they are still special, valuable, safe and that the new person will not take something from them, or hurt them.

Maybe a parenting book like that could actually have self help suggestions. I know it's not the same, but an idea on the same vine at least. It's especially hard when we have every excuse and reason under the sun to be upset but it just cannot change and we have to adapt emotionally.,, that so very often feels like no choice. It did for me this past year so far and still does Frowner
redtomatoredtomatoMember
TN - I am so sorry for the pain and anxiety this is causing you. It can feel like the grip of terror when what is supposed to be the safest-safe gets contaminated by our perception that "it's all happening again." To you, it is.

I am currently in a very similar situation regarding another patient. Something happened last Thursday that set off a response from me that was about 6X worse than bad. It was happening again, to me, as well. I flipped out and felt really suicidal for two days. Today with T, we talked about the root of this reaction and why I didn't have the tools to deal with it. I know we will be doing Inner Child work with this along with T helping adult me find options to manage these difficult feelings that come up. (She also recommended that when these "injuries" occur, that we need to meet more often, because other communications (phone, text, in this case-email) are insufficient to patch things together until our next session.)

You've identified choice as the vortex where you escalate. I'm guessing that choice is about control - being able to control your environment so you feel safe. Somewhere along the line that hasn't been true for you. Especially having recently been traumatized by oldT and all that involved. (Which I also know too well.)

I'm sure you know this really isn't about T's wife. Rather, it is about what she represents to you. And since it is T's wife, you know that he has a special and significant relationship with her. Their relationship may feel like it is happening all around you. You can't get away from it, and you still need T. Where does that leave you? What are the feelings? Insignificant, betrayed, unworthy . . . ? I believe THAT is where the resolution starts.

Don't know if any of this rings true, but whatever is going on inside, I hear how difficult it is for you.

And I felt the "ouch," too. Sometimes feelings don't believe in choice.

Big hugs,
-RT
affinityaffinityMember
quote:
I'm sure you know this really isn't about T's wife. Rather, it is about what she represents to you. And since it is T's wife, you know that he has a special and significant relationship with her. Their relationship may feel like it is happening all around you. You can't get away from it, and you still need T. Where does that leave you? What are the feelings? Insignificant, betrayed, unworthy . . . ? I believe THAT is where the resolution starts.




Forgive me for commenting again (last time, I promise!), but I've been thinking this over the past few hours, and I hit upon an idea of what may be going on. If this doesn't apply at all, feel free to ignore it.

You have a special relationship with your T in which there is some paternal transference on your part. When children are very young (say around 4 years), their feelings toward a parent of the opposite sex can be so intense that they border on romantic. I think that may be happening with you. Your inner child has a "daddy crush" on T. There's nothing erotic about it, it's just a phase of the relationship.

However, that has you in a bit of a bind. On the one hand, you really enjoy these feelings for T. On the other, the adult part of your mind is ashamed of them. And it's this shame that's causing your reaction to T's wife. You're afraid that if she sees you, she will also see your feelings for T. (This is why I don't want to run into MY T's wife!) And because you think you would feel threatened if anyone had such intense feelings for your spouse, you assume she will feel threatened, too, and demand that T stop treating you. This is the annihilation you fear. You say she would annihilate you, but it's actually the relationship she could (theoretically) put a stop to.

But, in your mind, that is the same as annihilating you, because T is your lifeline at the moment. You're not sure how you would survive if a malevolent force beyond your control wrested the relationship away from you. You think the pain might literally kill you or leave you damaged beyond recognition. And that's why her presence is so triggering.

This is just my theory, of course. Take it (or not) for what it's worth.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
I sincerely apologize if my last post was too harsh, TN. I don't want to minimize your feelings at all. They are totally understandable.Something I wanted to point out from your response: you say that encountering your T's wife in the office reveals your status as his patient. However, didn't you say that there are other Ts who use the same building? If so, wouldn't she know you were a therapy client regardless of who you saw?


Wow ... so many replies.

Affinity, apology accepted. In answer to this question... my T is the only T in the group who sees patients on the half hour...12:30, 1:30, etc. All the others in the group (including the wife) see patients on the hour... 1:00, 2:00, etc. So if she did wander out of her office while I was waiting she would know I was there for him. It's my T's practice and he does this so his patients don't bump into the other patients when waiting.

Hi BLT... yes I remember you telling me that she was not evil queen of the universe. It's hard to accept right now. I realize I'm not protecting myself ... I'm just trying to survive and avoid if possible. I'd rather try to pretend she does not exist. I don't really feel that there is rage involved but who knows... maybe it's so deeply buried I can't access it. The annihilation is not physical is more of a disintegration of the self. Similar to what I felt that day oldT abandoned me.

Hi StarHeart... it's so wonderful to see you here posting. I will look forward to reading any thread you start. Your signature line also made me smile...

StarHeart I do remember that you posted when I was preparing for my final meeting with oldT and you shared a bit of your own story and how you felt that a part of you died when you lost a significant person in your life. You see, I also lost another significant person in my life many years ago who I call "C" here on MS. He was my first attachment figure but I didn't understand that at the time and was very confused about our relationship. I had been trying to repair things and figure out what happened when he suddenly died last May. That grief has been terrible. But on to your post... I know that AG has often walked into the heart of her terror and come out the other side. I don't pretend to be as brave as she is. I'm just not sure I'm up to doing that. I do understand when you speak of feeling the experience emotionally that the situation with my current T has nothing to do with what happened with oldT or in my past. I know this intellectually and rationally but I can't get past the serious triggers and flashbacks produced by T's wife. And maybe she is just a symbol of other stuff but it's a very powerful experience and hard to face and get past. And I would really like to not have meltdowns and not feel trapped and fearful. I would like to walk past her and not feel anything at all but I can't get there because there is too much stuff tangled up in this.

I do wish for you that you find that hope and you can feel that freedom from the past. To find that ultimate safe person. I do know that my T is safe and he is human and will fail me at times. And I understand that he said that sometime in the future and it would be my decision that I would meet her but right now the thought makes me want to vomit. You see, even though I know my T cares for me and wants me to be well and free, but I do know that if push came to shove he would take her side not mine. And I would be left alone with no one to protect me... just as I have always been left in the past. How could he not take her side? They are married. I am no one that important to him. And so, the terror becomes worse. I appreciate everything that you wrote to me and I read it over a few times because there was a lot of important thoughtful stuff there. I also thank you for the link. I hope to see you around more often posting and seeking support on your own journey.

Hey Cat...thanks for your comments. You have come very close to how it feels to me. It's like a child whose mom is not in the picture and has just been with Dad for a long time and then suddenly, Dad gets married again and now child is not the focus any longer or important because Dad is very preoccupied with new wife. Child is left/abandoned. The relationship will never be the same again.

I'm sorry you are experiencing some similar feelings regarding change in job situation. My bond with T has been difficult because of oldT betrayal and now this issue. Whatever security I am able to put together does not last very long and is too fragile to withstand some of these obstacles. Thanks for the support and suggesting the parenting book. There are definitely parallels.

I'm going to post now and then continue in a new post.

TN
L lieseMember
((((TN))))

It sounds just awful, having no control over whether or not you see T's wife. You know I have difficulty with not having choices as well and feeling powerless. Frowner

When we are little, we need to feel important to our parents or else we keep looking for that when we grow up. I can only imagine that you were made to feel not as important or even unimportant as (fill in the blank) in your foo and you always had to work hard to be recognized as important. It is this dynamic that you keep repeating.

Over the years, you have talked about two relationships in which you wanted something you couldn't have (and that doesn't mean you didn't deserve it) from someone (C, OldT) when they were, in reality, ultimately unavailable - setting yourself up for feeling unlovable and rejected. By putting yourself in this position, you deny yourself the opportunity to be the most important person to someone who IS available. You are FAR from the only person who has ever done this. Ton and millions of people seek out people who are unavailable to them. All those people with insecure attachments. Frowner

The bad things that happened with C's wife and OldT's wife just won't happen with NewT. Maybe you can't be the MOST important person to him but you ARE very important to him. He can help you recognize when you are repeating that pattern so that you don't get hurt again.

evaevaMember
Reading through the many posts it makes sense to me why I am so afraid of accidentally running into my T with her partner / family. I would struggle with that so much - I can't even fathom thinking about it let alone it happening.

I don't even know if she has a partner or a family (and I don't want to know, either - ever). I didn't know why I feared this so much - but I can see now, it would be my 4 year old self terrified - and very jealous.

Hope you're ok TN - safe hugs if wanted
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Hi RT...

Sorry I didn't get back to you last night. I am glad you are finally working with a T who understands how things can trigger you and how normal this is with your background. And it's so easy for our brain to tell us that anything that happens that is remotely similar to past trauma means it's happening all over again. Sometimes it can be really difficult to stop the spiraling into that terror. I, too, have some issues with T's other clients. I try not to "see" them when I leave his office. There is one client who triggers me in that she looks similar to T's wife and there was a time when he was always running late with her and once I waited 20 minutes and then he cut MY session short. I was insane over that and I read him the riot act. I was feeling so hurt and dismissed by that happening time after time for a few weeks. Well, that stopped so at least he was responsive and he agreed with me. We did delve into the why and the triggers and it did help. I hope you can find the ways to cope and manage those feelings.

What you said about the relationship happening all around me and me being unable to get away from it, really resonates with me. sometimes I feel like she is in my session with us because she is sitting so close to us. And each time I try to move closer to T I look at the wall and she is there preventing that from really happening. Most T's don't even have pictures of their spouse in their offices. Is there a reason for that? Yes there is. It's because it interferes with therapy. I don't have the picture I have the real live person. I'm supposed to believe that we have this special "relationship" when I know his REAL relationship is two feet away from us so how can I maintain that illusion to do my therapy? I feel very insignificant. thank you for your words of support and insight.

Hi Jillann... thank you for thinking of me and offering support. I really appreciate it.

Hi Jones... maybe you are right but that story is hitting a wall the way things stand right now. I am so distressed and anxious walking in there that it takes me 20 minutes to calm down enough to make sense and then my time is up. It's amazing how differently my sessions go on the days I don't see her car parked outside.

Hi Affinity... you don't have to stop posting if you have something you want to say. Maybe I'm in that "daddy crush" phase of development but I don't really know. I have no idea what T's wife would think. I just feel that if she knows me by sight bad things will happen and I know that is not rational but there it is. My T keeps encourgaging the relationship and trying to build it but my heart is not in it because I know I'm not the one who really matters and I get reminded of it each time I walk in there so why let myself be hurt? You mean you haven't met your T's wife? Does he have a picture of her on his desk? What scares you about meeting her? Maybe if I know how you deal with this it will help give me insight.

When I lost my oldT the pain nearly did kill me. I never want to have that kind of pain again. it was worse than death.

Hi Liese... maybe I just want to be the MOST important person to someone and that is not going to happen now. That happens when you are a child in the center of your parent's universe. it does not happen when you are an adult and having wife there reinforces that loss.

ElizaJ I'm sorry you are having similar feelings about running into your T's partner/spouse. Our kids really do get scared and that is part of it. I hope this thread helps you and everyone struggling with similar issues. Thanks for your comments.

Draggers, sweetie. Thank you for understanding and commenting. You know how devastating it is to lose a T like some of the others here (RT comes to mind). It's a hard thing to ever forget and those feelings tend to contaminate other relationships. You were with me when it was happening and I'm grateful for your support, always. You are correct, I am having PTSD reactions to having her there and facing her and that level of terror is not as easy as it sounds. With it comes panic, flashbacks, cold sweats and terrible dissociation. Thank you for saying that I'm making progress with Trust. T and I have worked so hard for this. Hugs to you.

veryhopeful... I know facing the fear is one solution but it's not easy to do. I wish it was. Thanks for your comments.

TN
jonesjonesMember
TN, it makes sense that you can't do any direct work on the stories that need to be told while you are in the midst of those flashbacks. Sort of like - how can you TELL the story while you are still IN THE MIDST of the story?

I've been thinking on this and what the little girl might be going through. I was thinking about how in a functioning family people don't love, care and look after one person INSTEAD OF the other. Everyone loves each other. The mother and father both love the child, and one parent's love of the child is supported by the other parent's love of the parent and love of the child. They layer on each other and grow stronger, instead of cancelling each other out. If I imagine something like, say, a healthy stepfamily, it would be similar but a little different. A father might marry again, but he wouldn't have to choose between his child and his wife. His new wife, truly loving him, would support and help to grow his love for the child. It might take time before she had a relationship with the child, and perhaps it might not ever be appropriate for her to be that child's parent. But her love and support for him would be there making the family safer, rather than threatening it and tearing it apart.

I hope it's not too personal to reflect on this, but wonder if the little girl ever had a chance to experience anything like this. It seems like she didn't, like the only world she knows is one where it's one person or the other - and the other is going to be annihilated by the lack of love. Such a painful, painful experience.

I wanted to share this reflection because I believe that your T is coming from the other kind of reality and experience of the world that I'm describing here - where love layers and supports. Maybe the little girl doesn't believe in it because it's never been made real for her before. But it does exist. I think if you can keep working with your T on this he will help you to get there. Unlike your previous T (and perhaps even unlike your parents?) he is not a hurt, damaged child himself in this area. He is a grown-up who I'm pretty sure has done his own healing, who is capable of genuinely looking after those who are in his care.
MallardMallardMember
TN,

I just wanted to say that I have gone through something similar. I don't want to post lots of details but I have experienced feeling utterly trapped and hopeless in a relationship where I felt as if I had no good choices to make and where I could never be anything but second best.

I did have choices but all of them seemed so unpalatable to me that I remained stuck in a sort of agonising limbo for a really long time, hoping desperately that another option would open up to me; that the person I was in the relationship with would make a different choice to 'protect' me. It was so agonising that I tried desperately to ensure that I would never be exposed to what was causing me such extreme pain and distress. It was a very difficult, unpleasant time.

quote:
I hope it's not too personal to reflect on this, but wonder if the little girl ever had a chance to experience anything like this. It seems like she didn't, like the only world she knows is one where it's one person or the other - and the other is going to be annihilated by the lack of love. Such a painful, painful experience.


What Jones writes resonates with me a lot. Intellectually I could understand that there were relationships where one person's care for another did not diminish the amount or quality of care they could have for me but I could not feel it. I didn't trust or believe in it.

I think I get that what is being elicited for you is not simple fear, or jealousy that can be rationalised away. Rationalising is great but when you're dealing with what looks an awful lot like 'core pain' to me then it's not as simple.

Regarding meeting her... I am not going to give any recommendations one way or the other because it's such a delicate area and you are the best person to know what you can or cannot handle. I know that I had to do a lot of repair before I could face what was causing me and distress. I don't think you should do anything out of a sense of obligation though.

Personally, I think this extreme distress speaks to some really deep, attachment-related distress that has been triggered by T's wife but that perhaps she is not the entire picture and that there are layers of pain that are being sort of attached to and funnelled through this experience.

I don't want you to take from this that I don't think T's wife is the "real" problem. It's more that I wonder whether there's more than one thing going on. There's the very real worries and PTSD based on experiences with oldT (seriously, what were they even thinking?!). I wonder also whether this situation has become a focus, almost a screen or canvas for a lot of deeper, harder stuff to come out that might not have if you hadn't had her act as the trigger. I can appreciate that it might not feel that distinct.

I really feel for you, TN. Hug two
B bltMember
TN, I'm sorry if what I said wasn't helpful. I was just kind of throwing stuff out there.

I guess the only other thing that comes to mind, which others have touched on, is to wonder whether this may be related to events that happened for you earlier than your termination with your old T. Something about a third person destroying your relationship with someone significant. Do you have any siblings/stepsiblings? Did either of your parents get a new partner while you were growing up, at any time? Any other significant relationships get disrupted? I can imagine for some survivors of CSA, even the disruption of a relationship with an abuser could be traumatic if it was the only relationship wherein they felt special. Anyway TN, I am sorry this sucks so much. I've been there too, reacting really strongly to seemingly benign events and it's certainly not so easy to just talk yourself out of it.
affinityaffinityMember
quote:
Most T's don't even have pictures of their spouse in their offices. Is there a reason for that? Yes there is. It's because it interferes with therapy. I don't have the picture I have the real live person. I'm supposed to believe that we have this special "relationship" when I know his REAL relationship is two feet away from us so how can I maintain that illusion to do my therapy? I feel very insignificant.


My T does have a picture of his wife on his desk. Also pictures of his children. His daughter is about my age. It bothered me a little in the beginning, but not anymore. I know my T cares about me very much.

It is unhelpful to think of relationships in terms of "real" or "fake." Your relationship with your T is just as real as his marriage. It may not have the same kind of boundaries or interaction, but it is 100% real, with real feelings on both sides. I don't think anyone has ever been healed by the illusion of love.

From what you've said, TN, your T really cares about you. After the years you've worked together, there would be something seriously wrong with him emotionally if he didn't. True, he wouldn't rearrange his entire life for you, or buy you a house or physically nurse you through a bout of cancer, but that only indicates the boundaries of your relationship, not his lack of caring.

Just because there is someone in his life who is considered more important does not negate your importance to him. People don't get all their emotional needs met by one person and then say "to hell" with everyone else. I'm willing to bet that T is not the only important person in your life - probably not even the most important. But that doesn't make him any less significant to you. Why wouldn't it work the other way around?

I wouldn't want to meet my T's wife because I'm afraid she'd be able to see how deep my feelings run for her husband. And I think that would be really uncomfortable and humiliating for me. But it's not something I live in fear of. If it happens, it happens.

Basically, I cope by learning to enjoy the relationship that I have. It bugs me sometimes that my T goes home to someone else at night, but then again, so do I. We both have needs that must be met elsewhere with other people. And there's nothing wrong with that. Even though we only meet for an hour a week, what we have is meaningful to BOTH of us. My T told me yesterday, "You bring richness to other people's lives." If I can enrich his life for one hour a week, I'll take it. Smiler
L lieseMember
((((TN))))

I hope your session goes okay today. It's your decision as to whether or not to meet his wife but my vote would be to put that off for a while. I am concerned that there is not enough positive there yet to outweigh the negative.


My trauma T said something interesting today. I asked her about working through the things I can't have or couldn't have with my old T. She said the trick is that she will meet as many needs as she can meet and I'll start to feel better and better about myself that the ones she (or someone else) can't meet will eventually be a non-issue. It made me think about all this facing up to the things we can't have and grieving them. Maybe at the beginning of therapy it's the hardest and most painful but as needs get met, maybe the hurt lessens. It will get easier TN.


My OldT didn't have any pictures of his family around. I'm starting to think this does a disservice.

quote:
My T does have a picture of his wife on his desk. Also pictures of his children. His daughter is about my age. It bothered me a little in the beginning, but not anymore. I know my T cares about me very much.


Affinity's relationship with her T got to develop side by side with the reality of the T's family present. So the caring she feels is not an either/or but an and/and. I vote for more transparency!!! When I said that you can't be most important to your T now, I didn't mean that you couldn't be most important to anyone else. You won't get exactly the same things from a spouse than you should get from a parent but you should be able to be important to someone. We all should be important to someone, even if only ourselves.
B bltMember
You know, one thing that's really helped me understand how my T feels about me is that I have been working kind of as a nanny for a family with young kids. I realize that I can't be the parent for those kids (that role is already taken) and I do go home to my spouse after I see them. But I know if they WERE my kids, I would be very proud of them, and I also know that they are very significant to me. And if (for some absurd reason), my H had a problem with those kids, like if he tried to tell me they are bratty and I shouldn't see them anymore, I would say "too bad, get over it" and he would just have to adjust. So I think in the same way, I am significant and special to my T although I am not her spouse or her child.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
On the note of T photos, my T does have one of him and his wife (I think?) a long time ago, maybe with some of their kids (well, only one is his, the other are stepsons, but he never calls them that, just his sons). I don't/can't look closely, not because I feel jealous, but some weird issue where I don't feel a right to be interested or curious and draw boundaries around him to protect him from me...one of the reasons his disclosures can really mess with me, because I feel I've done something wrong by even hearing them. Anyway, at the other office, he has a big photo of just (again, I think) his wife's face. It's harder to avoid looking at, because it's clearly visible anywhere in the room. Photos don't really trigger me, but I know the one time I was leaving and knew she might be outside because he had car trouble and she had to pick him up, I did see her out of the corner of my eye and freaked. I felt really threatened, not by her the person, but by the idea of being seen by her, by whatever was wrong with ME being made visible. It's hard enough it is visible to T, who even if he were lying and does really see me the way I project, manages to never show it. But to be seen by anyone outside those walls...just...no. it took me so long for thst room to be a safe place, and the scope of thst safety is in those four walls...at each office...and does not even extend to the lobbies where other Ts and clients so obviously can see me.

For me, the badness of being seen by T's wife would be something wring I was doing...for existing in front of her. And I'm not even sure where that comes from. Frowner
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Sorry for not getting back here much today. I'm swamped with work and have been a little anxious about my session. It went better than I thought it would (T wife was not there today so I didn't freak out). I will write later about my session to update everyone.

I just wanted to thank you BLT, Mallard, Jones, Affinity, Liese and Draggers for all your thoughtful and helpful replies. You have ALL helped in your way by helping me look at the many facets of this issue. Lots of food for thought here in these posts.

I will answer more thoroughly later but I wanted to say quickly that Draggers is correct in that facing the wife too soon while I'm panicked and dissociated is like putting a soldier with PTSD on a firing range. It would not be a good outcome. That comment really resonated with me.

Liese you made a very good point about the pictures and how Affinity's relationship with her T developed. Maybe if my T always had a picture of wife on his desk and was always there in the office and i didn't have that awful experience wtih oldT and his wife, I would have had an easier time dealing with this issue. My T only has a picture of his daughter on his desk... it has always been there. She just graduated from college. For some reason I have none of these negative feelings for her and only feel warmth towards her. I think she is very sweet and has a lovely smile and I don't feel threatened by her at all. In fact, if I met her I'd love to give her a hug and tell her she is lucky to have such a wonderful dad and wish her the best in her chosen career (she's not a T LOL).

I'm feeling better and will let you all know more about my session when I can.

Hugs to all
TN
L lieseMember
((((TN))))

You sound like you are in a decent place. I'm so glad. I was thinking more about the issues I had with my T's secretary. I had to go through her to make appointments or even just to ask my T to call me. She made it very difficult at times. I remember how I would read into her road blocks and assume that T must be directing her as far as what to say and what not to say and she very much was a negative figure in our relationship.

I do think she had been trained by T to keep people at bay, especially women who might develop feelings for him. It WAS very difficult dealing with my intense feelings for my T even just with my T much less feeling so exposed to his secretary - when I myself didn't understand what was going on.

So I am thinking that as you have come to love your T and now his wife pops into the picture. Feeling threatened and exposed by that would seem to be an absolutely appropriate response because in the normal course of things, a spouse isn't going to be very understanding of their spouse developing deep relationships with other people. It's just not done or acceptable. I wonder how T's spouses deal with it?

I definitely needed to feel close and important to my T. Trauma survivors need an intense emotional relationship with their therapists in order to heal. Yes, I had erotic feelings as well but on a very practical, healing level, I needed that intense emotional relationship with him in order to heal and had we NOT gotten his secretary out of the room, I don't think I would have been able to do that. I don't think I would have been able to heal if I hadn't had that sense of at least being equal to in some ways but not less than his family. That may have been all in my mind but I needed to feel it for a time because I could not generate good feelings about myself on my own yet.

SO, sorry to ramble on so much about me. It just struck me how similar the two situations might be and thought it might be helpful.
redtomatoredtomatoMember
(((TN))) - so glad you're feeling a bit better and got to have a session without Wife next door.

A few words of my story to validate your experience. The Patient who I have chosen not to like, showed up for his session at the same time as I did. In fact he, T, and I all trudged up the stairs, me sandwiched between the two of them. He said he knew he was early and just wanted to sit in the waiting room. T asked if he was okay (yes) and did he need to talk to her for a few minutes (no). My mind started freaking at that point.

The chair I typically sit in has it's back against the waiting room wall. Couldn't do THAT. Had to move. Felt anxious the whole session about Him being right next door. I worried he would burst into T's office or that he would make a commotion so T would have to attend to him. It really disrupted the session for me. I subsequently had a meltdown that involved him in a different circumstance.

Not the same as your situation, I know, and you have the whole PTSD/oldT wrapped up in it, so I know that makes it a million (literally) times harder. Just saying I know how much a difference it came make when the person on the other side of the wall is Somebody. And the wall provides NO protection whatsoever.

Lots of good thoughts on this thread. Hope some of it resonates in a way that leads to peace for you. In the year I've known you, you've come a long way. Don't forget that.

-RT
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Liese and RT... thank you SO much for sharing your similar experiences and how it made you feel. Liese I often wondered how you managed to deal with that secretary. I remember you posting about her and how she kept throwing obstacles in your path. I would thank goodness that my T didn't have a secretary to deal with... LOL... so I got the wife instead Brick wall Thank you for sharing. It makes me feel less crazy.

RT... I would have died if I had to walk up the stairs sandwiched between T and another client. What the heck? Why was he SO early to his appointment? I would have been distracted in my session and worried about the same things you are. Sometimes I hear wife clomping around in the reception room and I'm thinking.... can she hear us through the door? My T has sworn up and down that the common wall is soundproofed but what about the door? I wonder. He does not use a noise machine. And why does she have to walk around so much? And will she be in reception when I have to leave? When I open T's door at the end of session I am braced for disaster.

Thank you for reminding me I have come a long way.

BLT... the nanny situation is a good comparison. I have also heard many teachers speak the same way of their kids. I do know down deep that my T would never allow his wife to say anything bad about me or allow her to tell him what to do in his practice. It was nice hearing your perspective.

Mallard... thanks for sharing. Like you I get a lot of this on an intellectual level but not on that "feeling" level. And without that I can't seem to believe it. My T has told me endless times how much he cares for me and how important I am and how he would never let anything bad happen to me. And there is a lot of core pain and I can't just make it go away by making a list of all the nice things T has said. I also believe, like you, that this is multi-layered and we will have to work a long time to peel it all away. Some of it relates to childhood and how my Dad never defended me against mom, some relates to C and how someone in his life caused so much disruption to our friendship and our business relationship and some from the oldT trauma. T's wife may be a symbol of a lot of this.

Jones, I love what you said about telling the story while in the midst of the story. That so resonates. I also like your comments about the family. I have read it a few times and need to absorb it and talk to T about it. It was very helpful.

This has been such a good, productive thread and the conversation has been meaningful and so helpful. There have been such thoughtful sharing and I hope it has also helped others deal with the "others" in their T's life. I did have a good session today and I'll do a thread about it to share.

This issue is not over so please all, feel free to keep the conversation going if you wish.

Hugs and thanks
TN

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