SG,

If I am understanding your T, it seems that she is suggesting that you have given up trying to address the marriage and parenting issues because you feel that everything you try is going to fail anyway? That would most definitely make me feel defensive as well. I would rather think of it as not having the right tools in my toolbox yet. You are going to T to learn new tools for working with your husband and children. If you were completely in a mode of learned helplessness then I would think you would no longer be seeking solutions to the problems. You would have given up completely and become passive and resigned to the situation as it is.

I think the example with her brother is interesting. It makes sense if you see it in the context of it being easier to see what an issue is if you are removed from the situation. When you are the one in it sometimes it isn't as clear, but as an observer it can be more obvious. Perhaps she meant that you are so close to the situation that it is hard for you to see what solutions might be available?

I don't know, but I do know that I would be defensive. When is your next session with your T?

Yeah, SG, this stuff is really touchy and sensitive for me too. I'm a bit overtired and woolly-headed, so excuse me if I just go straight to what I think is going on (given that it may not be right!!!).

She's on holiday, and not available, and that is inherently painful. For her to make a comment that is challenging like this (and it is very challenging) is extra painful - it seems like being told to take the blame for the pain, because of one's failings. Oucharama. And I'm there too, believe me, with my T leaving in a storm of provocative suggestions.

I suspect that the opportunity with this kind of pain is that it can be used to give you a really sharp look at habitual ways of being that might not be of use to you. I think my T-leaving deliberately tried to use the anger of separation like that, and I think it's possible for it to be useful - even if one has to work through some defenses to make use of it.

So, here in this horrible spot of abandonment, what can you make of this idea of 'learned helplessness'? I don't know for you, dear SG, but I know for me it really rings a few bells. I have a great pattern where I actually side-track anger and go straight to investing in outside connections - the rich emotional life of love and loss outside my marriage - accessible only in a shimmering oasis kind of way - because I'm justified, right? After all, I already know I can't have what I need at home.

Since we've been working on this pattern I notice that I'm more inclined to actually go to my H with the feelings, good and bad, and we've cleared some of the dead wood so that doing that doesn't make such a conflagration. The result is some beautiful intimacy. Via a lot of risk and wrong steps.

Hmm. Don't know how helpful this is, but is what I thought about when I heard the anecdote about the brother and nephew. Maybe it's useful, maybe not.

I also want to say this, Strummergirl - you've shared quite a bit more about that relationship with your ex-BF in the last while, and through that, I 'get it' - how profound that relationship was. It really sounds like he took over a parental role for you when you desperately needed it - when you were so young and vulnerable and IN NEED. Whether he meant to do that or not, he couldn't have helped but be that figure for you. I am glad, on the one hand, that there was someone at all there for you. I am not at all surprised that you deeply attached to him, that all those needs for parenting got bound up in his love. And I'm not surprised at how devastating that loss was for you - nor that he was unable to fulfill the depth of the on-going needs you had been left with by inadequate parenting. I can understand - deeply understand - the need to take refuge in the feelings you found there.

I don't quite know how to connect this, but my sense is that the next step might be about getting angry. Angry about what the ex-BF actually wasn't, angry about the work you have still been left with, angry about what you have been resigned to in the marriage. And willing to bare it, instead of bearing it - willing to show what you feel and passionately deal with life as it is, rather than retreating to the well-worn refuge.

I don't know, but for what it's worth, these are my thoughts.

(((((((SG)))))))

quote:

Whenever I try to talk to him I just seem to get irritated no matter what. It is so very hard for me to understand what he’s even saying, and he doesn’t seem to understand me either. She encouraged me to keep asking my H for what I need, then said to think about how much time I spend angry and giving up, and suggested maybe there is some “learned helplessness” there, meaning maybe I’m giving up too easily. I don’t know about that…maybe I am.

I agree with STRM, in that, she probably is refering to learned helplessness as something you have learned through NOT getting your needs met. I have the same promlem...I just cannot make myself understood, and my H always says, basically "just stop it." (Couched in very gentle, diplomatic, and kind tones.) I am always left feeling "What is WRONG with me?" and I retreat, feeling very...yeah, helpless. I do not know what my needs in the relationship are, really, and I don't really know how to ask for them, much less get them met. And I feel terribly guilty for even having them, like whatever needs are under there, are far too much/too many for me to ever expect my husband to even try to meet. After all, he's not a therapist...he has needs of his own...that I can't seem to meet! What a dilemma. Now, I have no idea if this is the scenario that plays out for you in your marriage, but for me it dow tend to make me passive and resigned, and I know it's going to take a lot of work to get myself out of this...not sure where or how to start, though!

quote:

The point being, it is ironic that he can be so kind to a stranger but so blind to his own son’s needs. She made the disclaimer that maybe it doesn’t fit me, but that she just wishes she could get her brother to see how his oldest son is feeling. And that was where we ended.

But this is not a very good place to end, IMO...it must have left you feeling like ****, frankly...of course we all want to be better parents, we hope and strive for that, but we can't just make it happen overnight. It's a process of changing ourselves, becoming more self-accepting (according to my T) and then change will happen as if by itself. It seems like we are always banging up against this in therapy...the idea that advice doesn't help, and yet, I think sometimes we reach a kind of weird place at times where even the best therapist feels compelled to give advice/challenge us to "change." For me, this area gets real confusing. But I'm sorry that you felt compared to her brother...that probably isn't what she intended, but it still seriously bites. And what area do we feel more sensitive about as moms, than our ability to parent effectively? (((((SG))))))

quote:

If I could just stop doing the wrong things, and start doing the right things, I wouldn't be in therapy. But she is probably right...my reaction to getting frustrated IS to shut down and run away if possible...do you think this is what she means by learned helplessness? Or maybe she means I don't need as much help as I think I do? Is it a form of avoidance or denial?

I doubt very much that she thinks you don't need as much help as you think you do...that is a sneaky one that gets in there all the time, deosn't it? And it is insidious in terms of blocking our ability to accept the help we need and the healing we desire. (If I don't need help and can REALLY do it by myself, than why am I asking for help? Just for attention?...blah, blah, blah, nasty voices, go away.) No...you need her help, and she knows it, or she simply would not work with you. But I think she just fell down on the job somehow, (maybe) in some way I don't fully understand in this session and it left you in a bad place. It's ok...there will be lots of time to fix up when she gets back, SG. It seems like lots is coming up for you right now.

Jones:

quote:

Since we've been working on this pattern I notice that I'm more inclined to actually go to my H with the feelings, good and bad, and we've cleared some of the dead wood so that doing that doesn't make such a conflagration. The result is some beautiful intimacy. Via a lot of risk and wrong steps.

This really gives me some hope, and I love hearing about the changes in your relationship, Jones. It gives me such a feeling of hope. I for one would love some tips or just to hear, how you managed to clear some of that dead wood away, at some point, if you were ever comfortable to do so.

SG, I think what can happen in marriage, is it can make us painfully aware of what we missed out on by showing us every day, what we are STILL missing out on from our spouses. For me, it triggers me constantly and makes me depressed. And in a marriage where our emotional needs are getting neglected, it can be very hard to even see it as a problem, because our emotional needs were *never* or rarely attended to before, so why should we have the expectation that they will be looked after now- by our spouse? How selfish of me, thinks BB. But deep down I know, there is a very wounded and very scared part of me that is holding itself apart from my husband because I do not *want* to humble myself to ask him, the "causer of more pain" to meet my emotional needs. No, I would rather stay angry at him. It keeps me safe from the past, and from the present. And it is hard to admit that, but for myself it is the truth. I would feel like a vulnerable child every time I opened up to him that much- and it is an extremely uncomfortable feeling. A yucky, even creepy feeling, at times, or initially, even. But like Jones, at the times (few) that I have managed to do it, the rewards were rich, because men, quite simply, like to be humbly (without anger) asked for things. So I don't know if this applies to your experience at all, but I just don't know where to go with it, and I am so afraid of accessing that vulnerability that I cannot even bring myself to insist on marriage counseling. Learned helplessness? For me, yeah, probably. Entirely my fault? (or yours, if it does end up being true for you too) No probably not. How to deal with it? Let me know if you come up with anything...please!
So sorry you have to endure two week break in the middle of this.

(((((((((((SG))))))))))

BB

STRM: Thanks for the toolbox analogy, I love it! And that is exactly it, I need new tools, and to learn how to use them. I don’t think my T meant I had totally given up…but when I’m in the situation, it doesn’t take much for me to get frustrated and overwhelmed…and then, for the time being, I do give up, resigned that this is always how it’s going to be and there’s no way to change it. I really really want someone to teach us how to use new tools until we can use them on our own. We got a great start with the couples T…I loved the insight we got just from that one video…now we need to just limp along the best we can until July 21st. You have a much better way of looking at the brother story, too. She really did just mention these things right at the end, so maybe I am trying to read too much into it. Our next session is on July 12th. Thank you, STRM!

Jones: It is very encouraging to hear of all the work you’ve done on your marriage – and the reward of “beautiful intimacy.” I can really relate to the pull of that shimmering oasis outside the marriage when things are not so beautiful, or intimate, inside of it. Thank you for understanding the feeling of my ex-BF as a “refuge”, even if it is only a memory – you hit it right on the head, I sometimes imagine him holding me as I fall asleep, and that is exactly how it feels, a safe place. I’ve also imagined how it would feel if I could just stop time and everything and go find him and just hang for a while, which evokes the same feeling. And this last part you said is what my T might have been getting at when she said to keep asking for what I need – that I can’t change him but I can keep asking (and I really liked your play on words):

quote:

And willing to bare it, instead of bearing it - willing to show what you feel and passionately deal with life as it is, rather than retreating to the well-worn refuge.

Thanks Jones!

Blackbird: Thanks for everything you said. So much of it sounds familiar. The cycle of trying to say what you need, hitting the brick wall, and then retreating. I’m sorry you are experiencing this too. As for a solution…you can bet if we arrive at one, I will share it with you! Sometimes I get to thinking, it’s just a matter of overcoming the inertia, the gravitational pull of so many unsuccessful attempts. So I just try running at the brick wall a little harder. Ow. There’s gotta be a better way.

As for my T…most of the time she says it sounds like I’m working really hard. So maybe she was just feeling overwhelmed by the end of the session...I mean, what can she really say if my husband and kids aren't there? Or maybe I’m just taking it too hard or the wrong way. Or maybe she really is offering up a challenge. It is the first time she has ever said anything that sounded like a challenge…and it was a pretty indirect one, at that. Still, if (when) I’m giving up when I need to keep going, and if (when) I’m blind to my kids’ needs, then I want to see and change it. You are right, it is a very sensitive subject when it comes to mommying…

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(If I don't need help and can REALLY do it by myself, than why am I asking for help? Just for attention?...blah, blah, blah, nasty voices, go away.)

Oooooh…I have those nasty voices too. This is exactly what I thought my T might be thinking, that I’m just trying to get “attention”. Which curiously enough is something my mom always used to say. But I don’t think that’s what my T is thinking at all…she’s reassured me enough times.

You are right, marriage must make us painfully aware of all those needs that didn’t get met. Motherhood, too, but different needs. The way I feel when I want to shut down is exactly the same way I would feel in my family of origin. You know what is weird…I just realized something. I’ve always seen myself as the more opinionated or fussy one in our marriage. What I just realized is, that is usually about wants. It is easier to communicate wants, than it is to ask for what I need. Huh. I suppose that might be because a need makes me vulnerable, whereas if I don’t get a want, so what? And yes it is humbling to open up and ask for needs. You said it’s a “yucky” feeling…yes I would agree with you there. In fact it makes me really hostile. But I don’t get hostile when I ask for a want…only when I ask for a need. Well…maybe that explains why I would get so testy before our little half-hour talk sessions. That is probably really important. At least now I will know when I’m asking for a need. And so will my husband. He can just watch for the steam coming out of my ears!

This has been incredibly helpful – thanks so much for your responses, everyone.

SG

Hi SG,
Sorry I'm late to the party, busy day. I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the already excellent feedback you're getting.

I definitely understand why both the learned helplessness and the story about your T's brother bothered you because I'd go straight there myself. I think you need to bring this up to her and have her clarify. We're so quick to translate things as criticisms or comments we're doing something wrong and she might have intended something quite different. It's bothering you enough that I think you should clarify it with her, either by contacting her now if that's an option or talk to her next session.

As for the learned helplessness, it was definitely something I had to deal with. There was a long time where I just didn't believe in my own efficacy or that any action of mine could actually affect things. And because I didn't believe anything I would do could possibly affect things, I didn't try to think of things to do. And that was so embedded I didn't even realize I was(not)doing it. It was such a shock to me when it started to change. One of the reasons I think my T worked so hard on getting me to ask him for what I needed was so that I could understand that when I asked him for something it would be effective. He slowly taught me that I COULD have an affect, that people would respond.

I know you heard this as ONE MORE THING you're screwing up, but please have some compassion for yourself SG. We spent years, and formative ones at that, in powerlessness, with no way to change the horrible things happening to us. You don't feel helpless because one day you woke up and decided "hey I think I'll just be a spineless wimp and give up, that will be fun!" You felt that way because you were for so long. I think what your T is trying to point out is that it's no longer true. You are no longer powerless or hopeless but it's 1)hard to believe something that for so long wasn't true and 2) takes awhile how to LEARN to be effective. One more of the lessons that secure attachment should teach us and we didn't get taught. So go a little easier on yourself ok? You're in therapy (after a really bad experience) and working on yourself as hard as you can to become a better person. A lot of people don't have the guts to face that, you should be proud of yourself for doing that. You dont' expect anyone else on this site to get better in just a few months, allow yourself the same patience. ((((SG))))

AG

Hey, BB just wanted to let you know I responded to your question on the 'spouses' thread.

Big hug, SG, you really are doing great. It seems like you are processing SO much stuff right now - I bet this turns into a huge leap forward for you. The refuge... honey, I am so glad I don't live in the desert, because anyone could trace my footsteps to every oasis in walking distance. Over and over and over again. That thing of going there when you're falling asleep - yes. To the point where there have been times I didn't know how to get to sleep without it. It's a powerful drug. I say drug because for me it numbed out a lot of the feelings going on underneath. It took me a long time to see this, but eventually I noticed how much this was an anxiety response. A self-soothing technique for when bad feelings started to come up. I still occasionally use it, but not nearly as much now. I'm sure I will again in future, though I'm starting to actually draw on my thoughts of my husband that way.

It's hard to even WANT to let go of that oasis (it feels really nice) and I can't say I ever did want to let go of it. But as with other drugs it has a dark side too, right? For me it took my mind away from my loved one right at the moments when that relationship needed engagement.

But I don't know, give yourself time - I'm certainly not suggesting you should kick away that source of comfort - it's not something I could have done just like that at any point. If it is something you want to work on you might just give yourself permission to keep exploring how it works.

Ok, gotta go!

xxJones

AG:

quote:

I think you need to bring this up to her and have her clarify. We're so quick to translate things as criticisms or comments we're doing something wrong and she might have intended something quite different.

Yes I am sure this is true, she has pointed this out to me so many times already. What everyone said here is really really helping to clarify...but I will still bring this up with her in the next session.

quote:

There was a long time where I just didn't believe in my own efficacy or that any action of mine could actually affect things. And because I didn't believe anything I would do could possibly affect things, I didn't try to think of things to do. And that was so embedded I didn't even realize I was (not)doing it.

quote:

I think what your T is trying to point out is that it's no longer true. You are no longer powerless or hopeless but it's 1)hard to believe something that for so long wasn't true and 2) takes awhile how to LEARN to be effective.

This helps so much, thank you! I was seeing "learned helplessness" as a sort of accusation of laziness...but when you explain it this way, it doesn't seem like an accusation at all anymore. Much more like another erroneous belief that needs to be brought out into the light so it can change. So thank you, AG, this helps a TON.

Jones:

quote:

That thing of going there when you're falling asleep - yes.

Wow...you do this too? You and I seem to have a lot in common with self-soothing styles...

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I'm sure I will again in future, though I'm starting to actually draw on my thoughts of my husband that way.

That is awesome, Jones...I hope things start moving in that direction for us eventually.

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For me it took my mind away from my loved one right at the moments when that relationship needed engagement.

Yes I can see this with us, too. It is an escape and a comfort when I've given up for the moment. Thanks so much for sharing this...and I hope things keep getting better between you and your husband.

SG