quote:

For those of you who don't mind answering, can you please tell me how you know your T isn't lying to you about stuff?

CT

Very interesting to me at this moment. Not more than 10 min. ago, I called my T and left a really dumb vm about this very thing. On the other thread, I said that she wasn't phased at all about my "I love you" call. And she was very careful to impress upon me that she didn't think anything was wrong with it. But, now 6 hours later the voice of doubt is SHOUTING in my brain! What if she really was THINKING that I'm a pitiful, needy, disgusting person? Well, she is either going to roll her eyes and think, "Oh that PL is at it again." (This is just MY image) or she will think I am really cracked!

Oh therapy! You are there because you are afraid of what people think of you, and when someone tries to be honest, you are afraid they are thinking the worst. I don't think I'm ever going to get the hang of this!

PL

quote:

I don't think I'm ever going to get the hang of this!

Me either.

quote:

For those of you who don't mind answering, can you please tell me how you know your T isn't lying to you about stuff? When your T says something nice to you or something positive that he/she sees in you, how do you know that he/she isn't just artificially trying to inflate your self-esteem? I mean, isn't part of their job to try to make us feel better about ourselves?

I really struggled with this for a long time. I have such a difficult time believing the good stuff that I really thought my T was just telling me the standard lines he tells all his paying clients. I also think it was scary to believe anything good because that just gave me something to lose. Bad stuff I can handle, it's very familiar. Good stuff? No thanks, makes me too vulnerable.

I learned to trust my T because of a few things. One, I finally came to realize that he had no possible reason to lie. He's my T, in some senses there's nothing at stake for him our relationship. Yes, because of "unconditional positive regard" he may refrain from the negative, but why volunteer things he doesn't believe is true? Most people, especially those handling a strong transference, are exquisitely sensitive to their Ts. I think lying under those circumstances, especially one that doesn't need to be said, is dangerous thing to do.

I've also learned to trust him because of his constancy. My T has just consistently continued to tell me over and over what he believes about me. Its hard to be that consistent when lying, because when you're telling the truth, you don't have to remember what you said, its just what you believe. If you're lying, you have to keep your story straight.

But the most important thing that taught me to trust him, is that my T has both told me things that were very painful to hear from him (although things I badly needed to hear in order to heal, he's not a cruel man) and has told me a very clear "No" on occasions. Knowing that he is willing to say no to me, means his yes is really a yes. And he's told the truth in situations where lying to me would have both made his life easier and made him look better. But he respects me enough to trust me with the truth. We were just discussing this recently because I called him because he hadn't replied to an email I sent him. When I asked him if he had seen the email, he told me he didn't remember. Then it got really ugly. But in working through that disruption, my T told me he would never lie to me. That earlier in his career, while he wouldn't have lied, he might have hedged more, but he knows it's important that he doesn't lie. I have enough difficultly sorting out what is reality because of being told so often as a kid that what I saw going on wasn't happening. I told my T that I would much rather he honestly hurt me than lie to me.

It just takes time. Seeing them behave consistently over time and learning to be able to take in the truth set against the lies you learned a long time ago.

AG

I think somehow I was able to discern rather quickly that my T doesn't say anything she doesn't mean, she won't lie to me, and she does not give false pretenses, and she is very authentic in what she shows of herself. What you see is what you get. You can't fake this stuff and it does absolutely no good for a T to even try to. I think most of them know that and would never try to artificialize the relationship.
JM

I'm having a problem kinda like this right now 'cause I'm working on telling my T what I need. But I imagine it going kinda like this:

Me: "I really need to hear that what I'm feeling is a reasonable response to what happened."

T: "What you're feeling is a reasonable response to what happened."

Me: "Oh. Well,...good." *thinking: You just said that 'cause I told you to. This is like a kid's game*

quote:

When someone compliments you for something you know you deserve, it just feels good.

And here lies the problem for me. I have such difficulty accepting compliments. Even when I am proud of myself for whatever it was I did, I don't know how to just say "thank you" and leave it at that. I have recently lost a fair amount of weight and of course people comment on it. It really embarrasses me and I always make a stupid comment that plays down what I have done. I guess I have trouble with that kind of attention. On the other hand, if I choose the time and place, I have no trouble with say comical attention. But then that attention is for what I am about, not what I feel.

PL

Okay guys, I set a new record today for THE quickest post-therapy-session-call-back, obliterating my previous record of 4 hours. Today, I managed to call my T WITHIN 30 MINUTES of leaving her office! WOW. How many needy points do I get for that?

Needless to say, I had a pretty tough session. I left feeling very skiddish and disoriented and angry. Why couldn't she have let me just stay with her until I felt better?!?! Why is this self-soothing bullshit SO hard?

I don't have time to elaborate fully, but just so you all know, we talked about two big things today: why won't she hug/ engage in any physical contact with me AND how do I know she isn't lying to me (she never actually said she wasn't lying to me, btw). Not a good session.

-CT

CT,

I'm sorry you are struggling with this issue.

Please take my feedback with a big grain of salt here...

My T doesn't offer a lot of pats on the back, not a lot of "atta boy" or "you're doing great!" or "you're making such progress." I guess I never thought of this as a good thing until now.

One day, when I demanded that he offer me some f-ing encouragement, he said, "you won't get platitudes from me." Again, it seems like it's the "DIY School of Psychotherapy" for me.

My point is that my T doesn't see his job as making me "feel" better about myself by telling me "positive" things. His job is to get me to feel, to stand up for myself, and to see through the immense layers of bullshit that have been built up in me as beliefs from my family.

So, as far as that goes, he never gives himself the chance to lie to me.

I think you need to tell your T that you *feel* like she's not being honest with you. If that's how you're feeling, she needs to know. Same with the other issue. Could it be that she's not comfortable with hugging? Or maybe she doesn't fee like it's appropriate at this point? I've never even shaken hands with my guy.

In any case, it sounds like you might want to put it all out there. I wouldn't be surprised it all got worked out OK that way.

Russ

quote:

Originally posted by Hummingbird:
...But in the process i got to see my own judgemental and critical mind, the one that steps in after i have lived a moment straight from my heart and tries to rationalise and minimize my experience...

...but then that voice starts, OMG you idiot, you believed her, you should know better... etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

DR HB

HB, I think everyone has this critical mind. I refer to mine as "The Bastard," and he says *all sorts* of hateful things to me and about me.

Has any one read "A Stroke of Insight" by Jill Bolte Taylor? In her book, she refers to her critical mind - which consisted of several voices - as the "Itty Bitty Shitty Committee."

quote:

she refers to her critical mind - which consisted of several voices - as the "Itty Bitty Shitty Committee."

LOL! I am going to have to remember that one Russ. That's funny.

quote:

Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
I think to myself one of two things. Either, "yeah, right," or "yep, fooled her too."

CT,
It makes sense to me that you would be wanting to question the truth behind others statements, given the household you describe growing up in. And the replies i've read so far really make it seem like you're not alone...

This is isn't an issue for me right now in my therapy... I'm not sure why, because I tend to have this issue with a lot of other people in my life... I think because my T is quite conservative with praise, when it does happen it's very meaningful.

But I do constantly worry that I'm being judged by my T, and I think when this happens I get a look on my face or something, because she always seems to know. So she often asks if I'm worried about what she's thinking, which I always am. Sometimes she reassures me that it's nothing bad (but only when I ask directly), but then my response is to think or say that she's an unusually uncritical, caring person. So I believe her, but I think that any other person in her place would perceive it differently, less kindly...

It's interesting the things our brains convince us eh?

-SC

Hey All,
Thank you all for your support and words of advice. I finally have time to tell you how things went down today, so here goes. This is gonna be long, sorry.
My session started off pretty simple, catching up with a few FOO happenings- you know, who's making a big deal out of what and what I think about it. We then transitioned into what I have been thinking about my stuff this week. I handed her my writing which had the two main issues I mentioned earlier.

Question #1- Why won't she engage in any physical touch with me- hug, slap in the face, anything?

Answer she gave me-
First, she read through all of my guesses at why she doesn't want to touch me. These included: "you’re repulsed by me and you think I’m disgusting," "you don’t want me to contaminate you with my dysfunction," "you don’t think I am worthy of that kind of affection from you," and (my personal favorite)"you derive some sort of sick, sadistic pleasure out of withholding from me something you know I desperately want."

She shook her head as she read through these and verbalized her disagreement with the more outlandish ones. She told me that none of my guesses were accurate and that the reason she won't go there with me is becuase she believes I will use her physical touch as a "measuring stick" for how well I am doing, and that getting touch from her will then be my goal. I articulately said "Nuh Uh" and she said "Yes, it will." I both agree and disagree with her, but I think the part of me that disagrees with her is the part that REALLY CRAVES touch from her, no matter what the consequences. So on that front, I really have to think hard to discern what feelings come from the adult in me and what feelings come from my touch-deprived little girl who wants what she wants. All I really know is that I FEEL LIKE my T has the capacity to give me something that she really doesn't have the capacity to give me and it makes me sad. I really want my lil girl to win this one, but she isn't going to. I'm still pondering the "poking" plot though...

Question #2- The second part of my letter explained to my T that I feel like she is lying to me about certain things. I told her I don't completely mistrust her, but I do think she is full of shit when she tells me that I handled something well/did a good job/am okay just the way I am.

Answer she gave me- Well, she didn't really answer this one at first. She initially asked me what I thought would happen if I actually received a compliment, to which I responded, "hell would freeze over." Since we weren't really getting anywhere with that route, she decided to try something else. She then asked me if my mother lied to me. I gave her this look like and must have conveyed that I was thinking "seriously... you're asking me that?" She then said... "well that's a silly question, what I meant was did she lie when she complimented you?" Whew! What a relief! For a minute there I thought she hadn't been listening to me AT ALL for the last 11 months! Anyway, we talked for a while about the lies my mother told, if I had ever been able to accept compliments, if anyone in my family complimented me and blah blah blah. We also got into what she thinks my mother's diagnosis was, which was interesting to hear, but kinda off topic.

We talked all around the issue of receiving compliments and how my receiving of criticism is skewed too (way too sensitive). Then, I heard myself say, "you know, I'm not real sure I am ready to let go of not letting people in; there's a little too much intimacy and vulnerability in that for me." She said, "oh, well then you just answered my original question (about what would happen if I received something positive from someone). I said, "I DID? What question?" She said, "you just said you don't feel safe letting positive things in. therefore, if someone compliments you, you don't let it penetrate because you feel too vulnerable and scared. You don't want to feel good and vulnerable about anything that someone can take away."

Well that right there was the comment that did me in. I didn't realize it in the moment, but I got really anxious after that. I could feel my time ticking away and I started to panic because I knew I wasn't ready to wrap up but knew we had to. She said something about this lack of accepting people at their word being how I felt I protected myself, but it doesn't really work because I still get hurt and still am impacted by what people say regardless if I let it all in. I believe one of my parting comments to her was, "well, this used to work for me before I started therapy... **make sure when you read that that you include a tone of utter disgust in your voice** She promptly informed me that, no, it wasn't working before either. Damn, i hate it when they are right and you know it and you want so badly for them to get SOMETHING wrong!

So, I managed about 30 mins before I called her back and told her I was angry and upset and felt awful and was worried my week was going to suck something awful. I also told her that I was really confused because she never told me that she isn't lying to me, which made me think that she is lying even more! I managed to work for a while, very disturbed and disgruntled, but trying to be productive. She called a few hours later and we had a pretty decent chat. She told me she hated that I left feeling worse than I did when I came in, and I told her that I hated it to and that I really didn't like paying for it either. She asked me what I was doing to care for myself and I said "I can't do anything, I'm at work." She promptly and emphatically informed me that being at work doesn't stop me from soothing myself...

She then informed me that the reason I was most likely so agitated was because we were poking at a method of protecting myself that I have used all of my life. I asked her if we HAD to poke it (I'm the one that brought it up!) and she said yes, that it isn't effective anymore and that it is in the way of me getting to where I want to be. I found what she said next to be really neat- I told her I couldn't focus on anything else and she said I should create a box in me where I can keep therapy stuff while I have to do other things and can't think about it. She said, "then place all of this in there and close the lid until later- but don't cram it in the box, stuff it in there and slam the lid- just place it in there, shut it and keep it there until you can come back to it."

Then she said, "as for me not reassuring you that I am am not lying to you, nothing I say will work. If I say, I'm not lying to you, how will you know I'm not lying about that too? It won't do you any good for me to tell you that I'm not lying." I told her that the fact that she didn't try told me that she didn't care and she said that was not what that meant. Then she told me a riddle about some dude walking down a road, comes to a fork in the road, one way leads to a place where people always lie and one way leads to a place where people always tell the truth. He asks some guy for directions, but doesn't know which town the guy is from and doesn't know if the man is lying or telling the truth. Basically, the point that she was trying to drive home is that her not reassuring me does not mean she doesn't care or that she is lying. She just has to let me determine her truthfulness on my own- apparently I have to give it time (side note- I asked her how much time this shit was gonna take because it has almost been a year already and that at the rate I'm going, she's gonna retire before I'm done! She told me that wasn't going to happen, but she didn't not give me an estimate of time).

Oddly, I feel better knowing WHY she isn't trying to reassure me. And I think I believe her. I just needed to know that it wasn't because she didn't care and I needed to hear her say it. I felt better and more focused after we talked, but I have a lot of writing to do about why I started protecting myself in this manner in the first place, why it worked then, why it doesn't work anymore and how it is in the way of where I am wanting to get.

Thanks for reading everything I'm spewing. It helps to talk about this stuff with people that don't think "hmmmm, why isn't your T seeing you more often???" I appreciate you guys.

-CT

CT-I thoroughly enjoyed reading about your session, not because I enjoy hearing about your painful struggle, but because I can soooo totally relate. I can relate to all of your feelings and I can relate to your T's insights into them the way my T does with me. As painful as it was for you to hear, I love the way your T considered all of your ill-conceived ideas as to why she wouldn't touch you, then how she gave you such a genuine reason as to why she wont. It really makes sense that she is doing this out of utmost concern for your behalf, but I agree with you...and in my own words, it still sucks! It sucks for that little girl who deserves a hug. I am sure she does, but does your T welcome you to express that little girls feelings in defiance to her? I mean not like you're going to convince your T to offer touch, but to give the little girl expression to her grief and anger for not having it and how much she wants and needs it? Do you know what I mean? The little girl wants and believes that your T can fulfill your longing for touch and she needs to pour out her feelings to the raw bone of them getting to the heart of where this deprivation comes from.

Anyway, I gleaned so much from your expereince and I appreciate you sharing it. I also like how your T put this:

quote:

I told her I couldn't focus on anything else and she said I should create a box in me where I can keep therapy stuff while I have to do other things and can't think about it. She said, "then place all of this in there and close the lid until later- but don't cram it in the box, stuff it in there and slam the lid- just place it in there, shut it and keep it there until you can come back to it."

I have the hardest time learning how to do this so that I can function and enjoy productivity in my life. It sort of wraps up the issues and tucks them away until later and I can probably use it along with the use of safe space imagery for my little girl self where she is safe to play and behave like a little girl with a safe care-giver while I attend to my adult life. I'm still working on it. Its hard to put it all away. It feels like I need to agonize through it to get it over with, but that's not working out very well either.

I also relate to the poking at our methods of protection that never really worked and how hard that is to accept it because hell, weren't we doing just fine before we came into therapy??

Thanks for sharing CT, you gave me much to think about. I like your T. She seems way cool and right on the money. I think you can trust this one.

All

This is a really great thread and thank you all for starting it and keeping it going. I'm only catching up after a week away...and guess what..I had just that discussion with my T yesterday. He brought it up actually - that he finds it difficult that I don't 'hear' any positive or approving input from him. He said 'well done' to me last week and I'm thinking 'for what?' 'I still feel miserable!'. The notion of the box kinda came up too but we started calling it 'emotional incontinence!' (sorry if that offends anyone) meaning trying to keep a lid (there's the box idea again) on not letting my emotions rule me, but to try to contain (not just let them take me over any ole time) them until I have time to process them and not to be at the mercy of others who can't contain there emotions either. This gets really complicated when you have spent decades bottling up your emotions and you think wey hey! I can finally feel something and now I have to learn to bottle it in a different and more wholesome way...oh the joys!!

Lots of other stuff going on with me and transference/attachment gig. On the touching stuff...The last couple of times I gave him a (big) hug (which he thanked me for) or we exchanged a peck on the cheek (again at my instigation) at the end of the sessions. I did it quite spontaneously and without thinking, felt 'normal' for about a day and now am plagued with the usual transference s$%t. Why did I do it, am I in love with him, do I want more, why won't he sleep with me and get it over with, does he fancy me...he must, he must...

Attachmnent Girl if you're reading this I know, I know...I have to tell him....

LOS

CT

First off, everything HB and JM said! (Very, very smart women!).

I also enjoyed reading it because as JM said, I related to so much of how you felt, I remembering struggling (still am with some of it) with all those issues.

quote:

Then she said, "as for me not reassuring you that I am am not lying to you, nothing I say will work. If I say, I'm not lying to you, how will you know I'm not lying about that too? It won't do you any good for me to tell you that I'm not lying."

This REALLY hit me between the eyes. My T and I were talking about my coming to trust him (which took a while and counting) and he told me that he could have told me he was trustworthy but it wouldn't have meant a thing. Why would I have possibly trusted what he said based on my experience? That he had to just keep coming and proving himself trustworthy until I was able to experience it enough to trust him. And I have to admit, as much as I don't like it either, he was totally right.

When it comes to some really significant things about our relationship -is my T trustworthy, am I safe with him, is he telling me the truth, does he mean the good stuff, is our relationship real- the only way I learned them was to experience them.

I often think of my T as the piling on bridge or a dock. Driven in deep, steady as a rock, unmoving and a base to build on. He just held in place, being consistently what he is until I could see it. So what your T said really resonated with me because it was my experience.

It sounds like you have a really awesome T. And I'm glad that you're going to her with your feelings and wrestling with these issues. Its in the struggling that the healing happens.

AG

quote:

It sucks for that little girl who deserves a hug. I am sure she does, but does your T welcome you to express that little girls feelings in defiance to her? I mean not like you're going to convince your T to offer touch, but to give the little girl expression to her grief and anger for not having it and how much she wants and needs it? Do you know what I mean? The little girl wants and believes that your T can fulfill your longing for touch and she needs to pour out her feelings to the raw bone of them getting to the heart of where this deprivation comes from.

Hey JM-
Yes, my T does allow me to express whatever I'm feeling- adult, little girl, puppy (?jk)... whatever. I make a lot of child-like comments to her (to everyone in general) and I don't really try to restrain them. I let a lot of it just come out. However, I'm not sure the really sensitive side of my little girl is okay with really expressing her disappointment to my T yet. I mean, I'm sad about it and have told my T how sad I am, but I think my little girl really just feels to rejection of it. I know its not a rejection and that it is for my own good, but i still feel that twinge in my gut when I think about how my T won't ever hold me;

**Enter random thought- have you ever seen the movie "Sandlot" where that kid fakes he's drowing just to get the hot, older life guard to come over and give hime mouth-to-mouth? I wonder what would happen if I choked on my gum or something in the middle of a session and started turning blue?-- I bet she'd initiate some touch then, but with my luck I'd really die and wouldn't remember her attempting to rescussitate me! ** Back to rational, more appropriate thought.

My little girl is still buried pretty deep when it comes to expressing true emotion. She's getting there, but she is really skiddish, paranoid, careful and observant. So if anything goes awry or feels too scary, she hides for a while. Her favorite game is hide and seek! LOL

Thanks everyone for your support and responses. I figured this topic would resonate with at least a few of you. I wanted to let you all know about something that happened today. I had what I call a "feeling epiphany." You know, when the emotional side finally has a light-bulb go off that went off for the cognitive side forever ago. I was in the car driving home from school and I was thinking about this whole "feelings in a box" notion my T brought up yesterday... and then it clicked! I realized I'm not just supposed to use this box when I'm at work! I'm supposed to be able to choose when to take these things out of the box and explore them when I'm ready, not do other things WHILE I am thinking about all of this other stuff!!!! WOW! that makes such a big difference. This box was not a one-time-use-only container... I'm supposed to have a permanent one!!! And, I don't have to close the lid and never open it again!!!!!! Holy crap... do you know what this means???? I might actually have some freaking regulatory ability someday. I'm so excited... I don't have to feel everything inside of me all of the time?!?!? I am almost giddy... seriously. Hot damn, I wanna just call my T and tell her... but I think I will keep THAT feeling contained til next Wednesday TOO just because I can.

-CT