Thought I'd share something I've been struggling with lately. Maybe someone has a different perspective and can help me with it.

I haven't seen my therapist in three weeks and won't see him until Thursday because of the holiday day here on Monday. I haven't seen him because I took an extended vacation. He went on vacation before I did and then I saw him for four sessions before I went away.

The most difficult time for me was before he went away and during. We had some ruptures. My vacation was less stressful in that way because I was the one doing the leaving.

However, when I was on vacation, it was SO nice NOT to feel the feelings of insecurity of powerlessness that I always feel when not on vacation from therapy. It truly was a blessing to have a break from those feelings.

One of the things I thought about was how much I worry about bumping into T's boundaries, making T mad, etc. etc. I HATE that I'm going to therapy and all I'm worried about is upsetting this person I'm paying.

I had a thought on vacation, that I would just be me and wasn't going to worry anymore about T's boundaries. If I felt like being chitchatty with him, I was going to be chitchatty and not worry that I was trying to turn this relationship into a friendship. I still feel awkward about giving T gifts at appropriate times even though he doesn't have a problem receiving gifts (as long as they don't cost a lot of money). I decided that I was just going to give him gifts when I want to and by that, I mean, in this instance, something from my garden when it ripens.

So what I think I'm trying to say is that I think part of my anger about their boundaries is the effect that it's had on me in terms of making me feel self-conscious about me and worrying about crossing a boundary that will make him terminate the relationship.

There is so much about the therapeutic relationship that IS unnatural and the boundaries part of it is one of those things. It all makes sense to the T's because they've studied it and understand the necessity for it but it doesn't always make sense to us.

And now for a tangent. I'm also not big on just accepting things because someone says it's good for us. That trait has caused me a lot of trouble in life but has also saved me as well. I'm not convinced that the boundaries are there ONLY for our benefit. I think they protect the T's a lot as well. I think if the T's were more honest about that part of it, it would sit better with me. I also think that boundary crossings are entirely appropriate at times and don't think T's should stick blindly to a boundary when it's clear it's hurting the therapeutic relationship.

Liese,
I agree that a T should not stick blindly to a boundary when it's clearly hurting the therapeutic relationship. However, there are a lot of T's out there who are not very skilled. And I've had my fair share of harmful boundary crossing done by a T. I think that in the majority of cases, crossing a boundary is more likely to do harm than good. It's a difficult problem: T's who aren't very good might give in too easily. How do they know if they are good enough to bend the rules?

I thoroughly enjoyed all the boundary crossing one T did (nothing sexual!!), I felt special, it was great. Until it came back to bite me. So getting what you want might not be good for you.
peanut

((PEANUT))

Good to hear from you and to hear your thoughts. You are very right about how difficult this boundary stuff is and I'm sorry you were hurt by some boundary crossings or violation.

I feel like T's boundaries in many ways represent a bit of an enactment for me. I kept trying to get close to my Dad but could only get so far. Same with T. It's like there was always hope with my Dad because he was a warm person. There was just enough hope there to keep me hooked. And with T, there's always fantasy, LOL! Which I have been relying on a lot less lately, I've noticed.

But anyway, the struggle is the same. Wanting more but getting denied. I don't know how to get past it (because I know boundaries are essential) except lately I'm just so tired of feeling the pain of longing that I've just decided to stop feeling it. I got angry (not with T but just a general anger) that I was relying on someone else to feel good about myself. I was also tired of feeling so insecure with T all the time. I'm paying him and I'm so worried about displeasing him all the time. I give him lots of reassurance in terms of how much I appreciate him but shouldn't it be the other way around because we are paying them? I know it's not the other way around but all of these peculiarities of the therapeutic relationship create an imbalance that, for me, creates insecurity and longing.

Maybe I just have to stop worrying so much about making T angry because maybe that's at the root of my problem? I worry so much about the boundaries and about displeasing T that I start to feel controlled by the boundaries and then I get angry at the boundaries for controlling me? Maybe I have to stop feeling so ashamed when I run into someone's boundary. A quick, oh, my sorry, and then move on without blaming them for having boundaries or me for having needs?

I've also been thinking that as I start to enjoy life outside of therapy, I'm looking less to T to fulfill all my needs and so if he denies me something I want, it doesn't hurt AS much anymore. Feeling as though he isn't the only one I can turn to has reduced the feelings of longing and powerlessness. How I got to the point where I was able to enjoy life outside of therapy, I have no idea. I didn't get there by T pushing me away, that's for sure. I think it has been all the grieving, honestly, and letting go of the past. And, of course, having a stable therapeutic relationship. Also, facing fears day in and day out. Learning how to tolerate fear. That was a biggie. Learning to recognize fear. Getting validated and learning how to validate myself. I guess it really has been a combination of things.

I wonder if you can make an analogy between starvation and emotional starvation. Like, if someone is 20% malnourished and someone else is 40% malnourished, would the cure be the same amount of nourishment or would the more malnourished person need more?

I'm just rambling now and not really sure anymore what my point is. All relationships have boundaries, even the closest ones, like husband and wife, parent and child. I just hope that my newfound sense of security with T wasn't simply because I was away on vacation. I hope I can hold onto it now that I'm back.

GE,
Just wanted to let you know that what you said resonated very strongly with me. My session last week was a pretty brutal one, dealing with touch and my confusion about it and was action packed including a flash back about dear old dad. It was really good work though and BN was amazing and steady. But I hit a moment when I experienced what you said, gratitude for the boundaries, as in felt it in my gut.

As I am sure you (and everyone else ) know, BN has a no hug policy. Its a boundary I have run into a number of times and experienced a lot of pain and faced a lot of grief about not having safe touch, but the stuff that surfaced in this session made me conscious of how profoundly confused I can get about the nature of a touch from someone: is it friendly, is it comforting, is it sensual, is it sexual? My signals are decidedly crossed in this area. I looked up at BN at one point and said "I am so glad you have done nothing more than shake my hand, it would have been so profoundly confusing for me if anything else had happened." I truly think that for me that boundary has been vitally important (I know that is not true for many, if not most, people). But it was good to really "feel" the good in it, even while recognizing that there will still be times when I will still want more and be sad or angry I cannot have it.

I think it was an important insight on your part and thank you for sharing it.

AG

((((GE))))

I didn't mean to take over your thread. I hope it's okay. The boundary/limits stuff is so confusing to me. I've been thinking more about it and getting increasingly confused. My parents had rigid boundaries in the sense of how I was supposed to act. They were also both unavailable emotionally and so I guess their emotional boundaries were high, if that makes sense. So there was this very narrow hallway, for lack of a better way to say it, in which I could walk.

I have pushed my T harder than probably anyone else on his boundaries and often feel like a spoiled child. He says he does not see it that way. He wants me to ask for what I need. He sees that as a healthy thing to do. He also things I had TOO many rules growing up. So, why do I have such a hard time with T's boundaries? Is it because I resented all the rules growing up but was never able to express it and find a way to make myself happy?

On the other hand, as far as any self-boundaries, I wasn't allowed to have any. My function was to make my adopted siblings feel welcome and a part of the family even though they were both there before I was. I was taught to make other people comfortable and taught to ignore myself.

IDK why I am finding this all so confusing. It seems like there are SO many boundaries at work here. Like the ID and superego stuff. What our parents and society expects from us. How we feel about things and if we are allowed to feel about things.

I guess our parents could have no expectations of us at all(and not teach us how to behave) and not inhibit us from expressing ourselves

or

they could have no expectations of us but inhibit us from expressing ourselves though that sounds unlikely.

OR

they could have expectations of us and not inhibit us from expressing ourselves

Or

they could have expectations of us and inhibit us from expressing ourselves.

So then we are all dealing with our own psychic boundaries, societal norms as well as everyone else's psychic boundaries and how they think they need to act. There are all kinds of boundaries floating out there. Uggggghhhhh, I'm getting so confused.

I do remember reading somewhere that the best formula for parents is to have the least number of rules as possible while being consistent enforcing those rules. I guess that allows for the greatest expression of the self while learning how to tolerate boundaries.

As far as therapy is concerned, we have emotional needs that have never been filled. Some need to be grieved but we also have to learn how to get others met. Somehow we do this in the context of therapy by bumping into T's needs. If we get the need met by T, it will make us content and won't motivate us to look outside of therapy for that need.

I guess in my FOO since I got none of my needs met, all the boundaries felt like torture and that's why I find it so hard to deal with in therapy??

Sorry to be so rambly. I'm just having a really hard time with this now. I feel so much anger at the establishment and as much as I love my T, just really disillusioned with the process even though it's been so helpful to me.

(((GE))))

I also wanted to mention something about what you said here:

quote:

those boundaries don't seem mean anymore

Recently I told my T that his non-disclosure rule was cruel. He said he was sorry that I saw it that way but he feels it's necessary to keep himself out of the room. I get this on the one hand but the whole blank slate thing causes me to project all kinds of negative stuff onto T.

He was kind of complaining to me because I had hit a patch of insecurity recently. I think he was feeling a bit burnt out. I KNOW he was feeling a bit burnt out. My insecurity was directly due to his vacation and not knowing any details about it. That's his boundary. That's fine. But on the other hand, don't complain to me if I get all insecure because the non-disclosure triggers that. kwim? I told him that if he is going to stick with his non-disclosure rule, then he has to expect that it's going to trigger periods of insecurity at times.

Sometimes I think he lies about what is going on for him just so he doesn't disclose. Isn't that awful that I think that? I try to imagine interacting with people who might want to know things about me but not telling them because that's my job to hold that boundary. Because the inaccessibility is so hard for me to deal with, feels like torture, feels like total rejection, feels like annihiliation of the self and the connection just goes dead - because of that, it seems cruel to me to withhold. It's hard to see it any other way. Is it really for my protection?

((GE))

quote:

However unless it is balanced with real care, acceptance and tenderness, it comes off as authoritarian, rigid and controlling.

Maybe that's how it seemed in my FOO?

((AG))

Thanks for your explanation. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Is it basically that they are something we can't actually see but we know is there? OR should be there in order to have a healthy sense of self?

I guess I'm trying to conceptualize it in a way so that I can understand when it is, say, therapeutic for a T to hold a boundary and when it is not. For instance, say I need X and T doesn't give X. That's his boundary. Is it better for me (more therapeutic) for T to hold his boundary or more therapeutic for me to leave T and find someone who can give me X? How and when do we decide if getting a need met is essential for our healing or if the T holding the boundary is essential for our healing?

How can the two things be true at the same time? That getting a need met is essential for our healing AND that a T holding a boundary is essential for our healing?

I'm thinking about the issues I had with T before we got everything resolved. It was just his boundary not to tell clients that he cared about them and I needed to know he cared about me. As some of you know, I had gone on lots of consults and the consults all said that he was insensitive. (Many people here thought he was insensitive.) He thought he was being a good psychologist. It was his boundary. I had a need. I was falling apart. My GAF was in the low 40's. I was not functioning very well. In this case, clearly I should have left him but since I was not functioning well, I couldn't leave him. In this regard he was not a good fit. His boundary was hurting me. For me, it was a good thing that he came around and has been more expressive. Would I have eventually healed if he had not become more expressive? How do we tell the difference between a boundary that is good for us and is, say, good parenting vs. a boundary that is hurting us?

I feel like I need some kind of analytical way to make these determinations. Does that make sense?

(((AG)))

Thanks. That was really helpful. This in particular:

quote:

Ts hold boundaries for two important reasons I believe: either we are trying to make them responsible for something we are responsible for (case in point, my T does not check in on me, but is very responsive when I reach out), or we are expressing a need that they can not meet because its impossible and they must hold a strong boundary so as to not hold out a promise of something they cannot provide.

I definitely think I'm on the verge of taking more responsibility for myself, teeter tottering back and forth. For instance, when I was on vacation recently, my T did not check in on me although he did respond to me if I sent him an email. I was a bit hurt at first because last year when I went away, he left me a message right before our session would have started to let me know that we are connected. Then again, I needed it last year but don't need it this year. I'm stronger now and our relationship is stronger. So, this year, I just decided (with very minimal effort??) that it didn't mean he didn't care because I know he cares and, well, if it did mean he didn't care, I'd deal with that when I got back home. It's a kind of strange place for me to be, though. I'm not sure if I feel disconnected or what. It's incredibly NICE not to be wracked with all that insecurity ALL THE TIME, that's for sure. I've just felt SO insecure for SO long that I don't think I know what it feels like NOT to feel insecure. I'm in a weird place.

Several times I've apologized to my T for trying to control how he comes across to me. His response is always that he doesn't feel that way. I don't know why. I would feel that way. I guess he just doesn't let me control him.

Hi Liese,

(GE - I hope I am not hijacking your thread. Please let me know!!)

AG is absolutely the guru, IMO, when it comes to explaining this stuff, so I am not sure I can help but I am going to give it a quick go because what you wrote really resonated with some of what I have been going through in my own therapy.

I too have felt like I have been very worried about crossing a boundary with T and displeasing him. It has been an on-going theme throughout my therapy. I feel like I am really confronting it now because I trust my T very much but I am still afraid to cross some imaginary line that is really only in my head. I know, intellectually, that my T would not abandon me if I said/did something "wrong" but the little girl does not, having come from a childhood where that's exactly what happened.

Boundaries, to me, are all about self-worth. I feel as if boundaries arise naturally out of knowing I have self-worth and I matter. If I have self-worth than I will set the limits I need that are healthy for me. I will know where to draw the line. In fact, I now sense that it would be wrong for me to look to someone else to tell me what my boundaries should be. I have learned, over time, to say no to what I need to say no to when I want. I have learned to say what I feel. I have learned to express my thoughts and needs. My needs don't always get met but the boundaries have allowed me to feel safe in expressing them. Because T has shown me safe boundaries, I have learned that I am actually a resourceful, empowered adult who can handle enforcing my own boundaries and can let other people take care of their own boundaries.

Coming up against the boundary of saying the "wrong" thing to T has made me realize that the only reason I fear this is not because I think T will hate me (yes, I am using that strong of a word because that is the feeling it illicits in me) but because I hate me. Deep down, because of how my parents treated me, I learned to hate myself--to think I was worthless.

When I confront a boundary with T (in this case expressing something to T that I am afraid is crossing the boundary) I am confronting the hatred I have in myself. It is like looking into a mirror. It is no longer T sitting in that chair, it is me--the me that I loathe inside.

I don't know if that makes sense but I think it is what keeps me silent. It's what makes me worry that I will always do the "wrong" thing. I know it isn't true, but it is how I feel, so I need to have those feelings come to light so I can face them and see the distortion inherent in them. I hope some of that helps. I hope I haven't made it worse!

BTW, I too have started to enjoy life more outside of therapy and feel that I am relying less on my T to fulfill my needs. This has happened, for me, as I started to value myself more and was finally able to act on my own behalf without fear. It has been slow and feels like baby steps for sure but it is happening. For me, I have really started to feel like it's time to get out there and to start getting those needs met, in real life, that T just can't fulfill because it is not possible. IMO I think this is growth. I guess time will tell!

WOW DBS! That was an amazing explanation and very true of my experience and I think went to the heart of the matter in a way I was not conveying. You put your finger on where our problems with setting our boundaries come from. I have learned so much from watching my T being really solidly comfortable with setting his boundaries, it has given me a model. This insight was like putting in the last piece of a puzzle and suddenly being able to make sense of what you are looking at. Thank you.



(GE - also sorry for hijacking your thread, but thank you for starting this conversation. )

Thanks AG! I'm so glad what I said made sense. It get it, inside my head and at a feeling level, but these things are so complex I think it can be incredibly hard to articulate. What I find amazing is how pervasive and "real" the feelings of hatred are. They are so ingrained and insidious. Now I know I need to really feel them and it's what I've been avoiding my whole life. I haven't even discussed this with my T yet but I will. It ought to be an interesting session.

Thanks for the vote of confidence - I think youda man (woman)! Right back at you!

(((DBS)))

What an awesome reply. Your experience parallels mine in many respects. Until now, the pain has been too intense to look at. I've only been coping with it.

quote:

Coming up against the boundary of saying the "wrong" thing to T has made me realize that the only reason I fear this is not because I think T will hate me (yes, I am using that strong of a word because that is the feeling it illicits in me) but because I hate me.

This really grabbed my attention. I hate me but for asking, for pushing. I hate me because when T does give, I'm not always appreciative. I hate me because I can always find a reason to be critical of T. I feel like these are real things to dislike about me, not just because of how my parents treated me - although maybe they came about because of bad parenting. IDK.

((((HOLLOW))))

So sorry you have had your share of pain. Your name says it all.

(((GE)))

You've been quiet. Sorry again about the hijack.

Quietly trying to stay alive

(((((GE)))))

((GE))

(((GE))) the surviving part is good, but please remember you don't need to remain quiet.

((erica)) ((liese)) ((AG))

i don't mind you guys hijacking the thread. I think the heart of what I wrote is really important and it will mean different things to each of us in our healing journey.

Sometimes there isn't much to be said. Most of the year I've been in state of insane grief. You simply need people to be there for you in real life in real time. You would like to think you are worth that and deserving of it. And when they aren't and your world is falling apart, you feel totally forgotten and bereft. it's mind blowing brutal agony

quote:

your world is falling apart, you feel totally forgotten and bereft.

Yes, as bubbies we had to hide those feelings when our world (Ma) was not available to us.

There can only be good by releasing those feelings.

Gutsy stuff GE!

oh muffle puff its awful!
I end up hating my T and thinking he's cruel and uncaring to not be there when I'm so distressed when he knows I have nobody else in real life for support. that's what I can't figure out.

just a wee dash of transference
yep all those things and more - unloved, unwanted, not special.
i was thinking that when things go well in early life we gradually go through a process of losing the position of being "most important" "most loved" "most special" etc and gaining a more balanced perspective yet cocooned in the security of that good early experience. It is so hard to reach that balanced perspective when there has been deep and pervasive deprivation because you never get that full experience to hold onto while you're crashing down to reality.
I'm also scared my T is full of crap and is planning a major abandonment exodus.
Tell me this WILL end as will my grief???

quote:

It is so hard to reach that balanced perspective when there has been deep and pervasive deprivation because you never get that full experience to hold onto while you're crashing down to reality.

You do get that experience through your therapy when there comes an ability to BE for yourself GE. Unfortunately it does take time, and more pain before you can feel your own reality of self.

great something else i'm failing at

one of those weeks i feel like im nowhere

its so frustrating losing her and not being able to bring her back through will power alone. and to feel like you're failing at everything and should know how to do this by now. so frustrated with myself and so over myself.
I had the most extraordinary week with T last week so this might be a defensive back step to work through. Its hard to remember its the same person who was so exquisite with me last week given how frustrating and upsetting this week has been.

thank you muff

Thinking of you GE. What you are wrestling with sounds incredibly distressing. I am sorry it is so hard currently.

thank you mallard it is super distressing and very frustrating. I do seem to be getting somewhere with it all though.

((GE)) I'm glad you feel you are getting somewhere with it despite how hard it is!! thinking of you.