Hi Butterfly ... Just read your post and don't really have a lot of time right now to reply but just wanted to let you know I heard you and I feel what's weighing on your mind .... I struggle with the "need" "don't need" dichotomy ... at the end of the day, none of us could function without other people in this world .... so as much as it hurts us to FEEL need, it is my general opinion that we do need other people ... and trust me, I'd rather do therapy by myself, if I could ... can't add too much more now ... except to say don't be too hard on yourself for needing .... good luck with your decision .... I'll be checking back later to see how you are feeling ...

Hi Butterfly,
I am really glad that you reached out here for support and didn’t continue to struggle in isolation. Without other people none of us could function. My T often talked about the concept of achieving interdependence instead of independence. The truth is that humans beings are built to NEED relationship, we flourish when connected and needing someone emotionally is no more a weakness than getting cold or hungry. These feelings are just a signal that there is a need that requires our attendance. So no one actually ever achieves complete independence. To quote John Donn “no man is an island entire on to himself.” So what we actually are looking to do is interdependence. That yes, there are two complete people with separate feelings and needs and desires but that we can connect so that when we have a need, we can move towards the other person to help fill it and when they have a need, they can move towards us to get their need met. And if we find ourself occasionally in a situation where we’re on our own (which everyone always does) then we can self-soothe and attend to our needs well enough to get through until someone is available to help us. In other words, as complete adult, we take responsibility for identifying our needs and asking for the help to meet them, but we do often receive what we need from other people. It can’t all come from inside, we’re not built that way. And even the stuff that does come from our inside is because we got from an earlier relationship. I once told my T that I didn't want to be so needy with him, that it should come from inside me. His answer shocked me, which was that it never comes from inside us. Everyone has to get it from somewhere else. It's just that when you have "good enough" parenting and attachment, you take it in at a time in your life where its easier to integrate and make it an integral part of yourself. It is inherently more difficult to do it later in life, I can attest to that.

So what you are seeing as a weakness, recognizing that you want help to deal with how you’re feeling, is not a sign of weakness, it’s a sign of strength. It’s inherently scary, especially if there’s been a background of abuse or neglect, to admit our vulnerability and ask for what we need. Which is why I think you’re feeling so ambivalent about this. On the one hand you feel the need to have someone to help you sort through your closet, but it’s scary to move closer to someone to get that help. Especially because, although no one did anything wrong, moving closer to your last T DID get you hurt. That’s not all it did, but it’s understandable why the feelings of “don’t get too close” would be especially strong now.

Please feel free to do whatever you think is right in terms of going back to therapy, but just know that you are not doing anything wrong, nor are you being weak if you chose to return. And although I am not expressing my opinion, because I really do believe that it has to be your decision, I'm sure you can probably figure out what I think.

AG

(((((Butterfly))))

I'm so sorry that you are feeling alone and confused. It's not easy healing from what happened with your old T. Of course you are still dealing with a lot of the grief involved in losing your T, whom you were so attached to, besides all these other feelings as well, that you need your T's help with. It's just a lot to handle all at once. I wanted to comment on something you wrote in your post:

quote:

Maybe if I am straight from the beginning about how I felt attached as this was never something I properly discussed with my other T...but it is a really scary thought…I think I also have to not care so much if she likes me and just talk of my issues.

I think it's really important if you decide to find a new T, you talk there about everything that is bothering you inside...of course. But try not to pressure yourself, that it has to happen right away, or at a certain time, or that you should not attach, or you shouldn't care if the T likes you...and so on. As my T would say, you cannot change the way you feel inside...it is kind of fruitless to try to change the way one feels, isn't it? It seems to me like what you need, is someone to share your feelings with. To be and think and say exactly what you feel with someone that it is safe to do that with. For me, a lot of this has entailed accepting the reality of not always knowing what I feel...and then, just say that. Or, admitting that there is something that I want to share, but that I find it very embarrassing to do so. (Like, for example, "I love you T, please don't ever leave me!") It seems to me from reading your post, that you simply need to be in a relationship with another person who allows you to have whatever feelings you have in relation to that other person...and in relation to your other relationships past and present. It's what my T has been trying to help me do for well over a year, now. It just takes time to get there. But, I understand the wish and desire, to be able to "do it on your own" without having to be in the pain and confusion that relationships cause. That's why, I too have been struggling so much with the idea of taking a break...it's just this struggle that you are having, with whether to start a therapy relationship again or not. Only you can make the decision, of course...but we are here to support you, either way, Butterfly. Do not be concerned that you have to have a therapist in order to post about your issues with past therapy or otherwise, here. I'm not saying it is, but I just want to say that, just in case that is a worry.

Let us know how it is going...have you had an appointment yet, or just emails so far?

BB

Thank you so much for your responses…I am not quite sure what I have got myself into…I have said yes to a meeting with her next week (not a session, just to see if we can work together) which I am starting to really panic over as it does feel like the start of something which is going to cause me yet more pain if that makes any sense. I was just starting to feel ok about it when I found something my old T had written and I found it so upsetting…not what she had written just that it was written by her and I couldn’t bear the thought of seeing someone else.

I also just found out some really sad news and I would do anything to see my old T.

I know none of you can give me the answers…I am just feeling really alone with this and have noone else to talk to so I really appreciate your thoughtful and supportive replies.

Liese it’s nice to meet you and thank you for justifying my need…it does make me feel better. I do need to have someone in RL to talk to. I just feel like I am on auto-pilot at the moment.

BG, I have thought so much about what I want to get out of therapy since finishing with last T… I really thought I had it in my head what I wanted and now I have made this appointment it has all gone again. I am no good at writing things down but I feel if I go without an agenda that I will fall into the same mess as last time. I did think about trying the CBT approach for short-term help…but I am not too sure that would work with me. Maybe I should try and find someone who can use different theories.

AG…everything you have said makes so much sense

quote:

as complete adult, we take responsibility for identifying our needs and asking for the help to meet them, but we do often receive what we need from other people. It can’t all come from inside, we’re not built that way

Yes I guess this is true and yet I hate to feel needy…I have always handled my issues myself until I started with the other T and now I appear to have lost the ability to cope alone...I think that is also partly what I am afraid of by going back into therapy soon…the ability to handle things myself. I don’t want to be reliant on someone else. I really get what your T was saying about the fact that to internalise we have to have had our needs met.

Hmmm well I would hazard a guess at what you are thinking but I could be wrong.

Hope you are ok AG.

BB, thank you for the hugs they are greatly appreciated right now.

I know what you are saying about not pressuring myself to talk about everything straight away and I think my thought process is going something along the lines of if I tell her about the attachment and a couple of other things I was too scared to tell my last T straight off before I have the chance to become attached to her maybe it will stop me from doing so. I know this is probably a really crazy thought…I just had no idea that I would become so attached to last T and honestly it did take over and I know avoiding it this time might not be true to how I feel…I am just scared. I do want to learn to rely on myself…there is no one in my life to fall back on when things go wrong. I know you understand the feelings of attachment all too well and the pain that it can cause.

quote:

It seems to me like what you need, is someone to share your feelings with. To be and think and say exactly what you feel with someone that it is safe to do that with.

Yes BB I would absolutely love this and in some sense I had this with last T but I may have gone wrong in something I told her at the beginning which meant that I wanted her to see the stable side of me so I did hold back quite a bit too.

Thank you for saying you will support me either way…yes I have at times have thoughts that I don’t belong here due to the fact I am not in therapy at the minute so its nice to know that I am still welcome though that is not the reason that I am thinking of going back into therapy.


So I have made the appointment and all our correspondence has been via email…. what I like is that she didn’t ask me what my issues were which for me is good as it scared me as most t’s will ask but she did say perhaps we could discuss how it feels to be looking for a T again. I am worried though as the way she writes is similar to other T….does this mean I am falling into the same pattern of looking for the same thing?

Butterfly,

Sorry I'm late to this, but wanted to say that I agree with everything that has been so well said by others. I think reaching out is always a good option and I'm glad that you've allowed yourself to do that here and also by setting up a meeting with the new T. Please keep us posted.

quote:

yet I hate to feel needy…I have always handled my issues myself until I started with the other T and now I appear to have lost the ability to cope alone...I think that is also partly what I am afraid of by going back into therapy soon…the ability to handle things myself. I don’t want to be reliant on someone else.

Hi Butterfly
I'm sorry you're in a hurting place but you are handling things yourself - you've taken action, contacted a new T and even made an appt That sounds pretty much like you're in charge!! I've returned to therapy this year after a break of 35+years and felt if I'd survived without help for all those years why go back now and certainly didn't want to be reliant on anyone? Doing so is the best thing I've ever done - I have someone, I've chosen, to walk with me where I need and want to go Will there be and has there been pain and heartache - oh yes indeed, but it will be worth it as it will for all of us who are working through some really tough stuff!!

Butterfly, I think I'm rambling now!!!! Let us know how you're doing and how the appt goes.
Hugs
Morgs

Morgs:

quote:

have someone, I've chosen, to walk with me where I need and want to go Will there be and has there been pain and heartache - oh yes indeed, but it will be worth it as it will for all of us who are working through some really tough stuff!!

This was beautifully put. I think it's great that you aregoing for it Butterfly. And you can always go back and change your mind if it doesn't seem right after you meet, or find a different T...

I'm sorry you got some sad news, and that it is hard to handle it alone. ((((Butterfly)))) Wish I could give you a realtime hug.

Oh, I don't think it's crazy at all to want to get as much out there before any confusion may set in...I can relate totally to that line of thinking! Then at least your new T will have some idea of what you want to work with, before it gets hard to talk? Still, you don't know that you will develop an attachment. Or that it will become hard to talk. You may not, or it may take longer...I guess I was just trying to say, go easy, let it unfold the way it will, since you probably can't control the way it goes anyway, kwim?

Let us know how the meeting goes! Keeping my feathers crossed for you!

Love,

BB

Hi Butterfly and blackbird
Need to check if you've been flyin' the oceans overnight!!!! Lots of pretty little flutterbies and pesky little black birds (he he !!) in my yard and gardens lately
Be kind to yourselves
Morgs

Oh Morgs...I wish I had been flying overseas...maybe in my dreams...sounds like a great getaway from all my problems. Very brave to go back after 35 years and I am so happy you found someone who you can work with so well.

Thank you for saying I'm handling things myself...but it really doesn't feel like that...it feels like I am falling apart.

Thank you STRM and BB for your responses. BB I know where you are coming from...the reality is I will probably be too scared to tell all anyway

I am starting to think having a new T to talk to can only be a good thing as I feel so down and alone with my thoughts and am really letting things get on top of me at the moment.

Butterfly

Hello Butterfly, I hope you are coping ok this weekend and not getting too anxious about your new T meeting next week. Want to wish you all the best with it and fingers crossed that you come away feeling positive - it’s a big thing you’re doing there venturing back into therapy with someone totally new after having had such a close relationship with your past T. For what it’s worth I think you’re doing something really good for yourself by reaching out again.

Let us know how it goes?

LL

Sorry LL, only just seen your response…thank you for thinking of me.

Ok, I think my fear might have gone the other way now…instead of feeling scared if this is the right thing to be doing I am so looking forward to having someone to talk to… I feel like I am putting too much pressure on this meeting…what happens if she isn’t someone I can talk to…I have found myself putting a lot of hope into this T. And if she isn’t...well I think I will totally lose the plot cos I don’t feel I have the energy to search anymore!

I have also been fighting off strong urges to contact my old T for the last few days as something has come up which is causing me a huge dilemma and I feel she is the only person who could possibly understand. I so badly want to send her a text and yet I am not sure if it is acceptable to still be contacting her as I am no longer her client so its not her job to care about me anymore and knowing she is finishing her work with clients next month I am sure she wouldn't want to be bothered by old clients. There is also the issue of in the long run it making things worse for me.

Well my meeting is later so I can only hope that it goes well...maybe I need to stop thinking about it so much…after all its not an actual session. Funny how the therapy relationship can make you lose all sense of reason.

Butterfly

Hi Butterfly,
I think it would be ok to contact your T as she since her practice is still open. I can understand wanting her input because she knows you so well. And it's her responsibility to let you know if she's uncomfortable with contact at this point. But you're not looking to stay in contact even after her retirement, just to help you get through your dilemma.

I can totally understand the sense of pressure about meeting with a new T, I think it would be inhuman NOT to be nervous about it! But I also love to hear that you are looking forward to having someone to talk to. That is such a strong, healthy impulse to want to reach out for connection in order to be heard and to find comfort. Let us know how it goes.

AG

Butterfly, I think it is wonderfully courageous that you are stepping out to look for a possible new T. I hope you post about how it goes - I bet you will do well with meeting her. I hope it is a good fit, and if not, keep hangin in... it sometimes takes time to find the right fit.

I'm so sorry you got sad news and are feeling so lonely in the midst of this. Ah, and the desire to call your old T 0 I know a little of what that is like... ugh, it is roungh, especially when you are hurting.

I wish I had words of comfort or advice that could help. Just wanted to say, please know, you are never totally alone - we are here for you. I get really lonely too. Especially this week. It sucks. I'm glad you are here though and hope you find some comfort and company on your journey towards healing. hang in there.

~jane

Thank you AG and Janedoe...your support means alot to me...thank you for the encouragement to contact my old T AG and I am sorry that you know the feelings of lonliness too Janedoe.

I will update about my session with new T later as I am not a good mindset and feeling quite down at the moment and I don't want to trigger anyone else.

Butterfly

Hi Butterfly,

Sorry to hear that you're not in a good place. Please feel free to come and talk about your new T whenever you feel up to it.

((((Butterfly))))

AG

Aw, so sorry to hear you are feeling so bad, Butterfly...whenever you feel ready to talk about it, we are here. ((((Butterfly))))

Blackbird

Sorry for not getting back sooner on this but apparently words are completely failing me at the minute. It seems I have forgotten how to express myself. I wanted to say thank you to all those who offered me their support as I really was apprehensive about seeing another therapist.

She was nice and had some warmth to her though not as much as old T...I felt absolutely nothing whilst I was with her but had a complete meltdown afterwards...I think the reality of having to start over when things felt really bad was too much for me to handle and made me miss old T so much more.

With everything going on at the minute, I realise that it probably would be in my best interests to be in therapy however will have to wait until the New Year (which feels so far away) due to money issues. I am not sure whether to continue with this one or look elsewhere, she is nice but I think I am slightly put off as she has a no contact outside of sessions policy which when I first started therapy I wouldn’t have minded but considering my old T offered it so readily it actually became my lifeline so am scared to go with someone who wouldn’t even consider it.

Anyway thanks again...I am trying really hard to think positively though everything is rather foggy at the minute.

Butterfly

Butterfly... I am sorry you are struggling with this and I know exactly how you feel. When my oldT abandoned me I was running around trying to find a new T. I was in such grief over losing that relationship of 3 years that I had worked SO hard on and the thought of finding another T made me physically sick. I would go talk to a new T and I would leave the office and sit in my car and melt down totally. I would cry for an hour or more before I could even drive away from the parking lot. I remember talking to my dear friend and my sister and sobbing and pounding on the steering wheel in grief and frustration and rejection. It was truly awful.

One of the big sticking points was the outside contact for me. None of the others offered it. One guy said he does not even have an email address and hates the phone. The other said I could call if I was suicidal (gee thanks). Another one never said a word about it. My current newT gave me his business card during the first session we had and said... this is my email...it's confidential and feel free to use it anytime. I looked at him in amazement. I didn't even have to ask. Then he told him I could beep him if I needed him too. After two weeks he gave me his cell phone number to call. Wow. This was a major reason I chose to stay with him. My old T had liberal outside contact policy and I needed that in a newT.

So I just want to offer you hope and say that you need to find someone who meets your needs and in whom you feel comfort and a feeling of being able to work with them once you know them better. It's just a sense you can get from talking to them for a session or two.

Good luck.

Hugs,TN

Hi Butterfly,

Good on you for seeing another T, though I'm sorry that it's so incredibly hard right now. I understand how difficult it would be, going from a liberal contact policy to no contact. My first T didn't allow contact, but my current T does. Although I never contact her, it's only because -I- don't want to, not because she's told me I can't (quite the opposite, in fact). If I were to go from her to another T who had a no contact policy, I would have a really tough time. Even if I don't contact her, knowing the option is there is comforting in itself. I think that kind of policy (no contact) says a lot about a T. This is just my opinion, as I know lots of therapists have strict contact policies and it works for some people. But...although the therapeutic relationship will never be a "real" relationship, I think that the effort to make it "real enough" is so important to growth and healing. In other words, being able to contact a T outside of sessions when you are in need allows you to be fully human - it's completely normal to have things come up between sessions and really NEED to talk to someone that you trust. And a T's acknowledgment of that is important. The ultimate goal of therapy is to integrate what we learn in therapy into our outside lives, but, (to me) it seems like not allowing contact outside of sessions seems like a T is telling you that your relationship with them only "exists" one week at a time for one hour (or however often you see your T). That in itself seems to make the whole thing less real and harder to incorporate into your daily life.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. There are so many different techniques in therapy that work for different people, so I'm only speaking from my own biased opinion. Butterfly, I agree with TN that you need to find a T who meets you where you are and with whom you are comfortable. Don't short change yourself if you know that you really need outside contact. It's amazingly hard what you're dealing with now, but it seems like dealing with a T who isn't meeting your needs would be even harder than having to risk yourself and find another one with whom you fit better.

((((Butterfly)))) Hang in there.

Wow...thank you TN and Kashley.

TN you have been an inspiration for me and I am really glad you have found a good T to help you with all you have had to go through.
It's funny...I believe you can sense if someone is right for you yet I felt nothing about the one I saw but I don't know if thats just because I have too much going on to explain therefore its hard for her to have a chance with me.IDK

Kashley, what you have said makes perfect sense, if you are to have a trusting relationship with a T you want them to be real in the relationship and not be able to switch you off after hours. The no contact policy is scaring me as I wonder if she really does care or if it just a 'job'. I guess I will have to give it some thought.

I think part of me is thinking it will force me to not contact her knowing she doesn't allow it as I used to beat myself up so much everytime I contacted my old T but she constantly reassured me it was ok which was why I kept doing it even though I felt bad for doing so.

Thank you both for your input...it really is helpful to hear what people think...and I guess I was thinking of just 'putting up with it' as it takes so much energy which I am not sure I have right now finding someone. You would think I would know what to look for by now but I think I was too spoilt with this last relationship.

What I'd do for a magic wand

Butterfly

Hi, Butterfly...if you find one of those magic wands, will you please wave it in my direction? I'm needing a little fairy-dust over here too.
I think the no contact policy sounds really scary...what are you supposed to do in a crisis...if you had one? (I'm not saying that I think you would, but, are you allowed contact in crisis?)
I'm so sorry that you can't afford session until the new year...I know how that feels it's awful, to feel like you need them so badly but you can't talk to them because you have to pay, and you can't pay...ohhhh. I don't think you were spoilt with your last T...I think that she understood you and made you feel more comfortable. Of course it is hard to know whether this T is right or not when you are dealing with losing your lovely old T, plus whatever your other issues are, it's just a lot. I read somewhere that a good rule of thum is to give it 4 sessions, and see if it feels like a good or bad fit at that point, but idk if that is right advice for everyone across the board, obviously..you have to do what is right for you. I know too that I tend to use email to avoid having to emotionally connect in person with my T about uncomfortable issues, in general I am a person who needs to learn how to speak more freely in person about issues, so it is probably in my own best interests when he puts an embargo on emailing. But calling should be allowed imo.

Hope you are hanging in there...I'm so sorry it is so hard for you right now..

Big hugs,

BB

If I ever find a magic wand I will make sure I send some fairy dust your way and to whoever else needs it too.
I don’t know what would happen in a crisis, her contract just states that there is no contact outside of the sessions. I didn’t think I would ever contact my last T but I ended up doing so far more than I wanted (I was really lucky that she was someone who used texts too and her texts provided me with so much comfort)…usually when I was in need of reassurance or feeling really down. Yes she really did understand me…I knew the very first time I met her I wanted to work with her…I guess it won’t be that easy this time round .
I tend to be far braver via email and can say things that I know I wouldn’t be able to say to her face and emailing provided a valuable source for me but also at the same time the added pain of misinterpretation .

Am not sure if the no contact policy will get in the way of the relationship or not…maybe I need to wait and see how I feel about it when I have some money.

Thanks BB.

Butterfly

Hi Butterfly,
I'm sorry this transition is proving so difficult (that phrase sounds SO inadequate to what you're dealing with, sorry!) but I think it's extremely courageous that you are accepting your own need to continue in therapy and find another therapist despite the pain of losing your old T. On some level, I believe that you are recognizing that although your relationship with your old T did cause some pain, that pain was far outweighed by all the good and healing that came out of that relationship. So in a very healthy way, you are continuing to reach out for connection in order to heal. And you're reaching out here for comfort while you're doing that. I think both are really good.

I did want to comment on the no contact policy. I completely believe in a therapist's right to choose how they practice and I believe that a no contact policy can often come from a place of caring. A therapist needs first and foremost to be deeply aware of their own resources and not promise a patient something they can't deliver. If a therapist is aware that they find contact out of sessions to be too intrusive or draining on them and that they would burn out because of it, they are being responsible in not allowing it to protect the work they do in sessions. I'd rather have a therapist tell me up front that they don't do contact, then tell me they do, then cut me off later because they really couldn't handle it, or even worse, abandon me. We've been able to see just how painful that can be with several people on here. So I don't think it's unreasonable for a T to set that policy.

BUT and this is big but, I also think it's perfectly reasonable that as a client, we want to find a T who does provide contact in between sessions. I literally made exactly one emergency phone call to my first T in 20 years of working with her. (Not because of her policy, I just never thought to do so. Looking back, I've realized it was just too damn scary asking for what I needed.) But with my second T, who allowed email and phone calls, I never made it between weekly appts without contacting him at least once and it occasionally went as high as three phone calls. Admittedly, they were usually short and we would be dealing with something pretty specific. But his attitude since we were dealing with attachment injuries is that you do NOT nor can you know when your need for an attachment figure will rise up so that he felt it was extremely important that I have access to him anytime. He was very clear about his boundaries and holding them so that he didn't allow it to get out of hand and overwhelm him. He never once spoke to me about contacting him too much and actually was very encouraging about contacting him, even to speaking of its theraputic benefits because I really struggled with contacting him. That it was important that I learned to ask for what I needed and have that need be met sometimes. I have to say that the ability to depend on him for a period and be able to contact him was a vital, integral part of my healing. I'm STILL able to contact him, even though I've stopped going to see him (there have been two phone calls, and around four emails since I left. I asked him during our last phone call if I was contacting him too much and actually got a snort and "What? I've barely heard from you!" so evidently, I'm not the sucking maw of need I can occasionally feel like. )

So I think you have every right to look for a therapist who is willing to provide that, especially since you found it so helpful before. I'm sorry the money is getting in the way until January, but I hope you can find a T who will provide what you need.

AG

Thank you for saying I am courageous for accepting my needs, that isn’t how it feels to me though. I agree with you, it is a therapists right to choose their mode of practice and contact policies and this does not define how they work as therapists or mean that they don’t care.. I think it is just the place I am in at the moment…which is that the only person I have ever felt really cared for was my last T so it would be hard with someone whose policies are so different.

Saying that maybe I need a complete change and it may be good to work with someone with slightly tighter boundaries. I think part of the reason I contacted old T so much was because I knew it was ok whereas if that option weren’t available maybe I would get in the routine of not needing the contact.

Thank you for your input AG. Hope you are having a good vacation.

Butterfly