Hi Yaku, interesting ideas you've raised in your post, about which I have quite a few thoughts, but am pushed for time at the moment so will come back later and reply properly. Just wanted to say hi and let you know I've read your post and will be back soon.

LL

Thanks, LL. Look forward to your reply.

And thanks also to DF for your post earlier. You had a lot of good things to say and I was mulling them over, but I totally understand about taking things down, because I have been doing that rather constantly lately. Anyway, I did want to say thank you for sharing and I hope you visit the thread again to read my appreciation, because you did give me some ways of thinking about the experience.

I too await LL's reply as I have a male t (he is my one and only experience with a t)and I can relate to the feelings. Thanks.

I too awIt LL's reply

Hello back again. Lol Mayo is that you being impatient? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this issue as well. And I’m sorry DF you had to delete, I thought you said some interesting things.

Yaku, my thoughts about this aren’t specifically based on an emotional/physical divide, more of a gender divide. But the way you describe being drawn rather to men than women for the nurturing physical affection fits me exactly. I seem to have this pattern of seeing men as the accepting nurturing caring ones, and women as the colder judgemental hostile morally righteous ones. Probably based on childhood experiences but also reinforced throughout my life too, not all projection.

I’m pretty sure it’s all tied up with sex – as in, physical closeness equals sex and vice versa, and I’ve obviously fallen into the classic trap of equating physical closeness with love. Physical affection from a woman leaves me stone cold unmoved – I don’t have any experience of caring touch or emotional closeness with the female figures in my childhood so it doesn’t mean anything to me emotionally. It was the male figures in my childhood who did the hugging, tickling, holding, showing some concern for tears etc (but only up to a certain age – after that nothing.)

I’ve seen a mix of gender Ts, mostly women (female Ts outweighing male Ts by vast numbers statistically) and for a long time couldn’t make up my mind whether one gender or the other was a better fit. ALL of them scared the hell out of me emotionally (like you’re describing with the Pdoc you saw) but in fact I always felt safer and more comfortable exposing vulnerability to male Ts than female ones. I always felt that the females just didn’t get it, didn’t have the openness and acceptance of my feelings that I experienced with male Ts, especially with negative and angry feelings.

My last but one T was female and was the first to openly offer and in fact push physical touch – which totally freaked me out but made me think, hm if I freak so much about it then it’s obviously something I ought to go into. She also really pushed me to go to tears, something I’m really uncomfortable with and the combination of being expected to cry and expected to accept physical touch (hugging, sitting close to me, hand holding etc) just flipped me out – too much exposure too much vulnerability too many of my survival defences going into overdrive… But I also experienced her as not genuine, that this whole touchy feely thing was a put on, a façade of assumed maternalism revolving around her need to experience herself as a kind caring giving T and not based on what I needed at all. It rather confirmed my prejudices about women generally, that the image of women as understanding, caring and nurturing as propounded in our culture is pretty much a con. (No offence intended to anyone here, this is pretty obviously my own projections/transference, but it’s my current reality.)

So I then saw a male T and interestingly, the major thing that put paid to that therapy was the fact that I found him creepy, that I just couldn’t bring myself to even imagine being emotionally exposed to him because I was not only not physically attracted to him but he made me want to cringe as far away from him as possible, and that was entirely based on my perception of him as physically repellent to me. (Never mind that he was a very kindly man and very accepting of everything about me.)

So I finally woke up to the fact that for me to trust a T there had to be some spark of physical attraction, such that I wouldn’t feel like vomiting if I had to imagine physical closeness (which I’ve come to realize is inseparable from emotional closeness for me). Which told me pretty clearly that I needed a male T because I was never going to feel either physically attracted to or comfortable and safe with a female T exposing emotional vulnerability, nor would I even want to (at the moment anyway.)

Dunno how to explain it any better without getting into icky details of sexuality, though it’s not really about sex at all – just the confusion in my mind between emotional/physical intimacy, trust, and the whole weight of cultural conformity (even though I burned my bra at 16 ).

Hm not sure if what I’ve been saying is very much to do with your situation Yaku, as I know it’s really important to your healing to be able to have safe touch with your T, whereas for me it’s rather the knowing I could if I had to, but I don’t really want it in reality. I think I would totally spin out if the option of physical closeness with my current (very new, male) T came up, I would feel very very threatened. Nice in fantasy but definitely not in reality. At the moment anyway.

But thanks for the topic, this is something that has come up really strongly for me recently and I’m glad to hear other’s views of this gender divide.

For what it’s worth Yaku, I think you are taking huge strides forward and though you might feel sad right now about wondering whether there is anyone you could ever feel truly safe with, I reckon you’ll get there with your T before too long. I just read your other thread about how this week has turned out so well for you, and want to say how wonderful it is that your insurance is now going to pay for you to stay with your T, that must be a huge relief. Now you can really get to work on that safety issue.

LL

thanks - you have given me lots to think about. I was not being impatient I have a new toy and I'm still getting use to it. yeah I'm still sorting out my feelings with my t as the relationship is changing. I no longer see him on a regular basis, but I see him at the pool quite often still. so that adds a little bit of confusion to the mix. This morning he was swimming in the lane right next to me. we chatted a little but then went right to swimming. I know this is kind of weird so we have to get use to it because we both swim at the ymca.( this little device I'm using is voice activated and I don't know how to make capital letters yet) Yaku- thanks for a great topic. And LL your insights help me too. my early childhood male caregivers, my dad, was cold and distant though I was fortunate enough to have caring and loving boyfriend. thank god t has strong boundaries.

quote:

I’m pretty sure it’s all tied up with sex – as in, physical closeness equals sex and vice versa, and I’ve obviously fallen into the classic trap of equating physical closeness with love. Physical affection from a woman leaves me stone cold unmoved – I don’t have any experience of caring touch or emotional closeness with the female figures in my childhood so it doesn’t mean anything to me emotionally. It was the male figures in my childhood who did the hugging, tickling, holding, showing some concern for tears etc (but only up to a certain age – after that nothing.)

I think part of it is this exact same experience for me. I think the part of it that means I only seek these things from men has to do with what you've described above. And, unfortunately, this experience is what has set me up to be vulnerable to some bad stuff. I guess the most confusing thing is that I don't feel really physically threatened by women (other than, "Ick, why would I WANT to be close to you?"), despite witnessing my mom be quite physical and scary throughout my teens. But I've gotten to the point where I am just starting to accept that some bad stuff probably happened earlier than I had imagined. It's really hard to believe since it doesn't fit the "story" I've always told of my life. Every time I start to give any credibility to the pieces of memory, I become convinced that I am making it all up...but I'm thinking the aspect of this that has to do with my fear of getting close to the men I am drawn to is all caught up in these memories, because it feels the same. At the very least, the only people to try to give me physical affection at all in my pre-teens and teens ended up...well, triggering stuff I've already talked about elsewhere in the forums that I never even realized were total violations. I do hope feel like things will be safer now that the pressure of worrying about having to leave T is off.

(((LL))) (((Mayo))) Thanks for relating to me and giving your input.

This is all interesting. I have experienced things differently from you ladies. I of course have a female T, and I've not known anything else. My first attachment to a male outside of my marriage was my physical therapist two and a half years ago. That was quite different than with my T. I was more emotionally attached than physically attracted, although now I see that I had a paternal transference sort of thing going on with him and as things went along it got to where I was angry with him, emailing him about how he was disappointing me by not answering my questions well enough, and stuff like that. I was attacking him abusively, really. It got ugly. But he was always kind, patient, tried to help me work through stuff, forgave me, BUT also got uncomfortable with me (gee, I wonder why?? ). I started to feel inklings of a physical attraction, but think it came on because of the emotional attachment to him, not because I initially found him handsome or anything. It scared the crap out of me. I am married, so I knew something was wrong, and I withdrew completely before something went REALLY wrong between us, i.e. an affair or something. I could see it having maybe gone that way given enough time. Scary and sad.

With my T I have had similar ups and downs emotionally. I am drawn to her physically, though not sexually, but I long for hugs, physical proximity, heck I would even love a kiss on the cheek from her in a motherly sort of way. Weird. But it's what I didn't get from my own mother that I long for from her. I want her to approve of me, I want her to think I am special. I want her to love me. And I find that I wanted the emotional stuff from my PT, not so much the physical because it would have been adultery, not just normal human affection or whatever. But I too was scared of wanting that physical connection with him because I think it would have felt good. It did feel good when he would work on my back with his hands rather than his plastic scraping tool. My T said it was the touch that I lacked as a child that was evoking the strong emotions and physical draw.

It's interesting that we can all feel so differently about what we want and need from the different sexes. Thanks for raising the question, Yaku. I know I didn't answer anything or give any help here, but it was good for me to look at it from this perspective. I hope you can get to a safer place with both sexes. I am sure you will with time. And good to hear about your insurance situation. I'm sure that's a huge blessing for you.

MTF

This is an interesting thread. I relate to your dilemma, Yaku. What LL said really rang bells with me, too. I've given this issue a lot of thought, since I've had these kinds of relationships with older men (often much older) since I was a young teen. I strongly believe that our sense of worth as females, and our sexuality, from a very young age gets affirmed (or not affirmed as the case may be) by our fathers. If that need is never met it leaves a gaping wound in the soul that we will always try to get met, in one way or another. And I think it is *very* common for it to not be met, because of cultural taboos around men being affectionate with their adolescent daughters. And- the more the need has not been met- or even exploited- the deeper the wound, of course. In many cases of course- those taboos are just plain wise, but in the case of a loving father who would never abuse a daughter- it's sad. I think we long for safe, unconditional, protective and affirming touch by a man. Touch that tells us we are ok, we are beautiful, and we are *safe.* Cherished. And in some way for myself- such touch (or I suppose the *idea or fantasy of such a touch) seemed to affirm me at the core and in my sexuality too, so my feelings in that area may awaken and feel safe to actually experience without fear of them being used against us. Hmmm. what am I trying to say. I'm *not* saying that a girl needs to experience such feelings with her father. I'm saying that a girl needs to experience that she is a girl- daddy's little girl- with her father. Badly. What I always found most confusing- and shameful- is that experiencing that kind of touch- the fatherly kind- (but not from my real father) was the only thing that *could* give me certain feelings. And I still wonder why that is, and fear it. I'm deeply ashamed and afraid of that.

As far as wanting to be attractive to such a man- a T or otherwise- which I definitely experienced very strongly too- that has to do with desire, I personally believe. The desire to please, rather than to simply receive humbly and unconditionally. Hm. Unconditional receptivity- probably the hardest love to attain interiorly of all. So it gets very complicated. Lots to think about here. Very thought-provoking stuff, Yaku. Thanks for sharing so openly everyone.

Wow.

hugs,

BB

(((Monte))) (((MTF))) (((BB)))

Thank you guys for all your input. It is so interesting to hear the different angles from which you all relate to this.

I do get the part about having to be able to be attracted and wanting to be attractive. I'm not interested in having that sort of relationship with my T (though I have had E transference before with father figures), but when I was researching other Ts, there were some men I could just eliminate by their photo. "Nope, can't work with that guy." If I think back to which photos those were, it was an element of attraction like you guys are saying. Maybe not exactly a sexual attraction, but at least liking the way they looked and thinking, "Could I see myself wanting to be close to him?" In the same vein, even though I never dress up for T or put on much makeup, making a bit more effort to look nice when I enter his office than I would to go on a walk with Boo or go to my GP (a female) or I did on my visit to the P. I still wear casual clothes and rarely have any makeup...but, I will pick one of my nicer outfits or make sure my hair looks nice or change out of flipflops into real shoes even though flipflops are more comfortable. Little things that I've noticed I do on occasion to see my T. So, I am thinking that is kind of normal, or at least for me it is.

BB - I'm sorry you feel ashamed. I am betting there are many people who have the same experience. I have a very triggering shameful experience around certain types of touch being the only way I could enjoy certain things most of the time and discovering a possible link from the past, so I can understand those feelings of dread and self-loathing so well... (((hugs)))

Yaku,

Reading your last post here I just want to add something. I have the desire to look my absolute best for my T. I wear nice clothes, scented lotion, my make-up and hair have to be perfect, etc. And my T is a woman! I guess I really want to impress her, gain her acceptance and approval and to look like I'm better off than I really am. Maybe I'm trying to fool her (unconsciously, of course, because she knows me better than I realize). I also did this with my PT. Maybe for some of us it doesn't matter the gender, it's the basic needs we're looking at having met through whoever happens to be our attachment figure. I think (actually I'm sure) I would have a similar dynamic with a male T, only I worry about the sexual dynamic so I don't know that I COULD work with a man.

MTF

quote:

I think (actually I'm sure) I would have a similar dynamic with a male T, only I worry about the sexual dynamic so I don't know that I COULD work with a man.

MTF, you and I are exactly alike in this regard. It's not that I couldn't experience attachment feelings for a male T, but that it would be so much more messy and complicated. I have experienced a sexualized transference to a man 40 years my senior, so just choosing an older T wouldn't be foolproof to keeping the feelings strictly paternal. Even without a sexual component, I would still feel my desires for physical or emotional closeness were more unacceptable -- more taboo -- with the opposite gender. Perhaps that is because I never experienced closeness with my own father? I don't know. But I do know I can forgive myself easier for asking for emotional intimacy and touch from a motherly figure, whereas with a male I would struggle inside with feeling like asking for a hug was doing something very wrong. And I don't think those types of feelings are limited to clients. I would bet money that female T's are more likely to offer hugs than male T's, if a statistical poll were taken. Why? I can't help wondering if its because male T's are less able to keep out a sexual component emerging within their own feelings if touch is involved. But that's just my own suspicions, which are most likely colored by my own issues with sex and men.

Maybe I should add, in response to Yaku's original reference to physical safety versus emotional safety, that I actually feel less physically safe with a male than a female, which translates into less trust and relaxation on my part.

***Possibly triggering***

Kind of related, kind of unrelated...but I was talking to my H about some parts stuff that is coming up on our drive down to see my dad, because I'm getting a lot of feedback of being scared to go see him and trying to work through what that's about and was saying how he couldn't have done anything bad, because of a memory I had of him getting very angry about me trying to kiss him on the lips at my grandmother's house when I was little, and the fact that affection means hello and goodbye hugs, or when I was a kid it meant playing sports, maybe being carried on his shoulders when I was VERY little. That's it, so I couldn't see it even being possible. Anyway, a few other weird things, but my dad is like SUPER moral, like got a DUI when I was little and without outside help did not drink for 20 years, even at his own wedding, so it's nearly impossible for me to see him doing ANYTHING wrong.

Anyway, H disagreed and thought my dad's obvious extreme discomfort with giving fatherly affection was an indicator of something being off there, maybe something having gone wrong, rather than evidence that nothing weird could have happened. So, I said, "Well, you just say that because I have commented about the lack of affection before." And H said, no, that he on his own observed that the way my father interacted with me and was very thrown by how distant and hands off he is. Now, H comes from a very physically affectionate family, so his opinion may be skewed...but it made me so sad to hear my H say that from first meeting my dad, he observed our relationship as VERY strange. I kind of always felt like these things can't be seen from the outside, so it allows me to think it's all in my head. But, there have been a few times this year I've had someone outside my family tell me that either my mother or my father behave very strangely to me and how it surprised and saddened them. Anyway, I am feeling this is somehow related, but most of all and just...sad and confused.