Mayo, I really get where you're coming from. T spent so long encouraging me that texting is OK, but can't manage to consistently reply. Sometimes he doesn't reply at all. I text him way too much, became dependent on it. It's hard. I also email him. He never emails back (but he does read them and we discuss some of those things in session). My T has also give the "It's not an excuse, but I work 12 x 5, with barely a break." And that doesn't include whack-jobs like me sending him three-page emails and text messages. I don't think it means your T is not OK with receiving your emails or responding to them...but I do think it means he ought to have done a better job to tell you what your expectations should be around that type of communication. He let you down, you're hurt and angry by the sense of rejection of being "too much" for him, a burden. I get that, because I feel that way constantly, but I don't think that him being busy means you are actually a burden. I would hazard a guess that your T would be very sad that you are feeling like you bother him. That being said, I don't like the way he worded his text...a bit defensive. My T has only ever ONCE been defensive toward me and it was to say he didn't think anything he had said or done or even thought in his heart warranted the conclusions I was drawing about how he feels about me (not caring, hate, wish I would go away). So, while it's appropriate for him to tell you the problem was not about you, but about his schedule...I really don't like the way he worded it. Right now, it sounds like you are having the "done" feeling I had when T withdrew from me.

You may have read elsewhere...I started sitting on the floor. T sat on the floor too. I expressed a desire that he not move further away when he moved to the floor, so he sat side-by-side. It overwhelmed me with both good and bad feelings. I wanted to discuss disconnecting safely. T suggested he should not have sat on the floor with me. I completely disconnected from him, told him I was "done," that I "didn't care." I just closed off. It took everything in me to keep approaching him after that. It was so scary and painful. It still is, a couple of weeks later. I totally get your feelings. They make sense to me. And you can choose to be done putting yourself out there...that is within your rights. But, from my own experience, I would encourage you that if you know T to be a trustworthy, safe (albeit busy) person, that you try not to be all done with him and instead work through what it felt like to feel like you were offered something that wasn't OK or at the very least not given appropriate expectations. Can you work through that with him? Even if your T senses something is off, I think most Ts will not push to talk about it if they sense the client is unwilling. So, unless you bring it up, the opportunity to process that anger and hurt and let him provide a healthy reaction to it (an apology, discussion of what it felt like, etc.) is kind of lost. It's OK if that's not something you can do, because only you can say if your T is a safe guy to do that with. And after a rupture like this, it's hard to believe in that safety. It took pretty much everything I had to make the choice to trust in my T's record with me and do it.

(((((Mayo)))))

I suppose the upside to my T not having in-between contact is that I am not shattered by things like this. I can't imagine how you feel

Sending lots of (((((Mayo)))))

Mayo,
Blech.....
I'm sorry T hurt you. Out of session contact can be terribly hard in my opinion and I too have felt rejected, ignored, dismissed after forcing myself to do it in the first place, so I really understand how much it hurts.

Mayo, I know you know that your T cares deeply for you. Can you try to talk to him about this when you feel a bit more settled?

And fwiw, until then.....I hope his goggles leak too.
(((Mayo)))
sea

Thank you for your sweet words Yakusoku, and I know you are 100% right. Now if only I can get your message from my head to my heart, where the fear lies, the little girl fear of being too much, being a pest. I will try. As I am much stronger than I was. But I just can't see myself contacting him first. Nope-can't do it.

T and I have been through worse than this, but the moving away on both our parts (me choosing to lengthen time between sessions) and him just being not sensitive) makes this tough to know what to do.

And yes, R2G you are right, although I am overall, glad for the inbetween contact- as needed. WE never had a problem (of this nature) with txts.

Seablue- thanks- I just read your message. You made me smile about the goggles thing.

Right now I am not feeling safe contacting him at all, but I will wait and see.

I think he thinks that I am stronger than I feel, at times. It's that dang-sweet little girl that struggles with this. Thanks for the

Draggger- dear sweet Draggers,
Thank you for you post. First- I hope you are doing well.

Currently I am actually trying to break away from the T dependency, and choosing to live with the pain,kinda testing my inner strength- while bleeding to friends here.

I have grown lots in therapy, and eventhough the little one is creating a storm, I am attempting to struggle it, so she can see that it is not the end of the world. I can sometime feel that part of me crying, but the adult me is becoming stronger. So in a very weird way I am seeing this pain as growth. Does that make any sense??
Love you Draggers- all of you!

*triggers maybe*

Hi Mayo- I'm so sorry that your T responded to your pain about his lack of response by making it all about his own feelings and needs. Especially after *he* offered emailing to you as an option. That must have hurt terribly. ((((Mayo))) I can't imagine how bad that must feel. It does make one feel like "just forget it." I am not sure if talking to him and working it out is the right thing to do or not. It may well be, but you would have to be able to be very honest about how what he is doing is hurting you- would you be able to be? I've found it really difficult to do that. Then there is the worry that there will be *more* recrimination on the part of him, telling you that you are hurting him by telling him how he is hurting you- arg. That of course, would not be good. So it's risky. If he responds with compassion and apology, it could really help you- if not it could really hurt you. As many have said to me, have you considered getting a consult to talk about some of your feelings about this T? I hate to say it cause I know it hurts bad and is scary to think of. But you need healing, and I am wondering if you feel better or worse after starting with this T? Something needs to change in the way the relationship is panning out, it seems. And- it could just be a one-time thing. For myself, I think any T would just agree with me, and not be able to see both sides of the story objectively, because I can be very convincing. I would only do it if my T could be there, which just seems like overkill in my situation, and with the video-conferencing. I couldn't do it- but in your situation, with live contact, it may be just the thing? There are T's I've heard, who will try to come in and do repair work on the relationship between T's and clients...idk about it, I just throw it out there.((((Mayo)))) It's just a suggestion.

Oh, emailing- blessing and curse. I'll tell you about my situation, cause it may help somewhat to hear another perspective on it. I have greatly reduced my emailing with my T since I have found that it leads me to obsess about him constantly, his responses, his lack of responses, my responses, what I said, was it stupid, was I wrong to email, I hate myself for sending that, etc...there were times when emailing him led to me actually wanting to hurt myself. Now I just live in the pain and depression of feeling disconnected from him. A panacea, hardly- but the lesser of two evils for me, I think...but I am not sure. (of course) Just wanted to offer that, as information/comparison point- and my that even my T, who is less than popular on here- has said that email is not a good way to communicate as it can easily lead to hurt feelings with no way to patch it up.

Keep posting here and let us support you, if it helps...I just know how bad it feels when they make the therapy about their own feelings and responses. ouch. Last session I had, I did manage to reconnect somewhat with my T, but not before he made some comments to me about how "unpleasant" I am when I get angry at him. The last thing a person with a trauma background like yours needs, is to feel they are hurting someone by simply reacting to their neglect- someone who is supposed to be taking care of *your* emotional needs.

I hope things have improved at work and so on, since you last posted...missed you.

hugs,

BB

Mayo- I find it absolutely crucial to edit, and add- that while I do think it's important for a T to keep their own feelings out of the therapy, I also recognize that there can probably be good therapeutic reasons for any T to decide to "break the rules" -any of them- for sound therapeutic reasons. Granted this will probably be risky for any T to try, however- I think it does happen, even in solid therapeutic relationships. That's why, in some cases, mine (and possibly in yours) it would be beneficial (if it was worth it to the client) to explore therapeutically, it might be crucial to have your T present at a consult, because he might have good reason for doing some of the things he does. For example ( and this is just me, I'm not saying it applies to you, but as an example) it is very likely in my case, that my T would bring his feelings into the relationship and make it more "real" (though risky) in order to show me that my actions/emotions/whatever- actually can have an affect and impact on others and how they relate to me.- this might be beneficial for anyone who may have been left alone too long and have no interior grasp or deep belief that they can impact others one way or the other emotionally, but feel completely isolated) Does that make sense? So- it gets confusing and it becomes a *huge* trust issue. Basically anyone in this position would have to fall backwards into their T's arms trusting that they aren't going to majorly screw them up. And that would be immensely scary to do, unless you had some other reason to deeply trust this person, outside of yourself. I wonder if you could ask your T if that's the kind of thing he may be doing with you? And just gauge his reaction to the question. Because- I recognize so clearly that I am in no position to advise you... but just want to offer support/suggestions..thoughts- commiseration..

all that being said- I think he was wrong to say that your reaction to his lack of response "hurts."

Don't laugh at how pathetic this sounds-

I was driving my Mother home after having her at my house for a wonderful Mother's Day afternoon. Everything went smoothly until-

My Mom commented about how lovely and polite and grown up my 2 daughters are. She commented on what a nice job I had done raising them. I added, that eventhough my husband can be very difficult to live with, he is and always has been a wonderful father to the girls. Then-...
my mom who suffers from demensia (little true memory left) commented about how wonderful my father was with all us kids. The hair on my neck bristled, but I just smiled, and said sure ma. She kept going and I was silently seething, and remembering the special days he ruined because of his anger and his drinking. The fears crept in. By the time I let her off, I was in such a state of Idon't know how I was feeling but I felt sick and anxious and fearful. My T's office is about 1 mile from my mom's house, so I drove there and sat in my car in the parking lot. (of course the office is closed- Mother's day- Sunday evening) I looked at the pink trees I've used so many times to ground myself in session, and pretended to have a session with T, imagining what he would say to calm the little girl, and How I would respond. I prayed and left about 15 minutes later. Felt better, but ...
That's pathetic. Still can't call you T. And I am learing that I meant nothing to you, after all.

quote:

that my actions/emotions/whatever- actually can have an affect and impact on others and how they relate to me.- this might be beneficial for anyone who may have been left alone too long and have no interior grasp or deep belief that they can impact others one way or the other emotionally, but feel completely isolated) Does that make sense?

BB
that makes so much sense, but it is triggering for me. You hit on something big- but i can't just figure out what it is. I know you are describing some untouched something in me and my body is sad and scared but I don't understand it. Yes I was left alone- for hours. My mom always left me in the crib she said I loved being by myself and that i was such a "good" baby. I can't tell what your thoughts are triggering- but it is something. I am going to try like T says and be the observer of what is coming up- so I don't freak out- become derailed. Still can't call T though. Don't know why this is so powerful- but I can't.

oh, arg, I am so sorry to have triggered you Mayo- I never meant to cause you any pain. I know it hurts to look at this stuff, and I would never want you to have to do that alone without counsel to help you and be with you in it.

BB

No BB don't apologize.

I need to look at this. It is something I did not know. I am in pain but I am functioning. I need to know more so I can gain some understanding of it, so I can grow. T can'[t help me with this, I won't let him, but I don't know why. I cant sort it out.

He is like your T in the sense you described, about being real with me, he has said so.

Just to clarify- are you saying- people, kids that experience neglect have a hard time realizing the impact they have on people? This is new to me, and yet it is so me. This is core to why I have trouble with intimate relationships. This is why I have trouble with boundaries.

It is good for me to know this, but now I am stuck emotionally, and I don't know what to do. ( other than the obvious)

Thanks BB for your insights. The anxiety and the undefined sadness is back, but maybe somehow I can see my way through. If you know more about this or have any resources- please let me know. I will research too when I get time.

The adult me is in control, but the little girl is really in a tizzy- shaking even- but no thoughts connected to the high activation. And isolation sounds just about right. Thanks.

Does anyone know about what BB speaks of- the link between neglect and the ability to guage how we(I) affect people? HELP!

Hi Mayo,
I have some input on this topic you might find helpful. As always this is based on my experience and may not fit yours, so only take what you can use, if any of it.

Research into attachment theory recognizes three stages when separation with an attachment figure occurs: Protest, anxiety and despair. When a young mammal or infant is separated from their mother, the first thing they will do is protest to bring the attachment figure back. Think of a baby crying or a puppy whining. If the AF does not return, the infant becomes anxious and moves into a hypervigliant state, scanning the environment for any sign of the AF and will often ignore any overtures from anyone but the AF. Think of the way a fussy baby won’t quiet until they are held by their mother. Eventually, if the absense is too prolonged, the infant gives up and enter the stage of despair. They grow quiet and turned in on themselves, interact less and stop exploring their environment.

One of the deepest lesssons we are supposed to learn from interacting with an attuned caregiver is that the universe is a benign place, that our needs will be met, that we are worthwhile because we are taken care of and that the things we do matter. If there is an attuned, consistent “good enough” caregiver than when we cry out in need, someone responds in a timely manner AND pays enough attention to figure out what we need (they teach us to identify our needs.) When a baby is crying a mother can often tell the difference between a wet diaper and a hungry baby. She learns this by paying attention to the child’s needs and supplying what they need: food, a change, soothing, being put to bed because they need rest, etc. Not every request a child makes will be met with a “yes’ nor should it be, but every request should be heard and addressed. When a child hears a “no” it’s a lot easier to tolerate if they know their request was heard, and considered. It helps even more if their upset in response to the no, is heard and they are helped to deal with the difficult feelings of anger, and hatred which can occur.

On a very fundamental level, then, an infant or young child learns of their efficacy. That when they cry out and make their needs known, someone responds and meets the needs. This teaches them that they can take action and see results. “I am cold, I cry out, I am wrapped in something warm, I feel good again.” Or for a toddler, “I’m really tired, I hold up my arms, mom or dad pick me up and carry me.” Each response to a request builds a belief in a developing child that what they do MATTERS, that they can effect change about things that make them unhappy, that their actions have results. In normal development, this produces an adult who “knows” on a very deep level that if something is wrong, or needs changing or they have a need, that they just need to speak up about the need and take action and more times than not, it will work. They believe, so deeply that they really don’t think about it, in their own effectiveness and abilities.

But if you take a child who is neglected, whose needs are ignored, who does not have an attuned, present “good enough” caregiver, then will go through the stages I spoke of in the beginning of this post, until eventually they slip into despair, into a knowledge of their powerlessness to get what they need or to have things change when they are unhappy. So on just as profound a level as the child whose needs are met, they “learn” and come to believe in their own ineffectiveness. They have layers and layers of experience of crying out, of trying to makes things better, of trying to get their needs met, but nothing ever worked. At least not consistently, and not for long. So why try to do anything about your situation if it’s not going to make a difference? Even worse, why try, knowing you’re going to fail, only to be hurt again? It’s better to not try anything than to have to suffer that abandonment and disappointment again.

I think this may be the feelings you’re tapping into; you can see how painful it is because when we get in touch with these feelings, we experience the loss, the aloneless, the abandonment and the powerlessness we might have experienced as children. I know that this was true for me. The good news is that you can learn that things are different now, that you can affect change, that you have power and a voice, that when you act you can change things. But that comes with processing some very painful feelings of what the truth was when you were a child. I’m sorry, you sound very confused and like you’re in a lot of pain, I hope some of this may help you make sense of how you're feeling.

AG

AG, for some reason your post has me in tears.

Mayo- I am really sorry that I seem to have hit a nerve, although it was not my intention to bring anything up for you- I was only trying to describe a situation that I had thought of, in which it would make sense (to very unschooled me) for a T to have brought his own feelings about me (as unpleasant) into the therapy.

It was intended only as an example maybe rationalizing my own T's behavior in not accepting non-judgementally my cynicism/anger- and not as something that I specifically thought was happening also to you- I was thinking out loud. But yeah, it makes sense that if we were neglected, we wouldn't think that anything we do or say would have much affect or impact on people around us, or people who are supposed to be in position of caring.

I'm sorry if it seems to have hurt so very much. What AG says makes sense to me. I hope it helps you...to keep trying to reach out. I know how hard it is dealing with what you are. The apathy for myself, is the most difficult thing to overcome. It feels almost impossible. I feel like I have to "pretend" to care about getting my needs met. ((((Mayo)))) you have shown some incredible strength and bravery in the midst of everything you are dealing with. Keep on trying...

hugs,

BB

AG, and BB,

Thank you so much for caring.
I saw T yesterday- he took me right away. More work to be done. Life is too complicated right now. I will post more when I can. Your information ultimately helps me, do not apologize. And AG thanks for putting that so succinctly, I remember reading some of that in the book you suggested to me- "General Theory of Love. Have to get that back from T.
Thanks Again.

So0 glad he took you in right away...that seems good.

((((Mayo))))

I can see why you would feel hurt and confused by your Ts lack of response to your email. I would be hurt by this as well. However, it does sound as though your T is a bit overworked. With him juggling so many ball in the air, I cannot help but think that you are probably not the only client he has dropped the ball on. I believe this isn't about how much or how little he cares about you, but is instead about him having taken on more than he is equipped to deal with at the moment. He has spread himself too thin.

I am wondering about his words, "That hurts". At first I read it to mean that he was saying your comment hurt him, but the second time I read it, I got a different take. It was more like, "(I realize) That (my actions) hurts(you)" . Not sure if the way I have written it out makes sense, but I am not sure he was saying that you were being hurtful but was instead reflecting back to you that yes, his actions were hurtful, but its simply a reflection of how swamped he is and is not a reflection of how he feels about you.

Lady Grey,
Thank you for your thoughtful response, and for making me realize that I need to up date.

First I need to say to T's credit- he is a master at repair. During the session, I was so activated, (but apparentely I hide it well, because I didn't tell him- he even commented how I relaxed while talking to him in session- T's can be clueless, sometimes, I guess) that I have very little memory of our time. I walked away with 2 things though. First, at one point- he said, (regarding his words "that hurts")"I am sorry. To which I brushed off. He caught that and drew my attention again, and repeated, "I am sorry." I don't remember how I responded, but he drew me back a third time and said in a low, calm exceedingly sincere voice, "I need you to hear me, Hele, I am sorry." That was powerful.

The second thing was about our different views on what sin is, and how it can draw us away from "good" and lead to making bad decisions.

So we are back to txting every so often, nothing long, always deep though. And I won't be emailing him, as I do not feel comfortable with it. Too many expectations involved with it.
And I too, would not have good boundaries with it.
I told him that he is becoming exactly who I need him to be, - my loving T. He liked that. And responded, "God, I love learning with you."
Now THAT felt- all kinds of wonderful.

Everyone- thank you for your love.

(((Mayo))) So happy for you. I'm glad your T really made sure you heard him, because it was important for you to receive his really caring how he had hurt you.