Russ,

I've had this very problem before - I talked to a close friend, trying to explain what my dad was like, and he said that I couldn't _blame_ my dad for what he did because he didn't mean to do it. Was particularly tricky 'cause my dad has recently been diagnosed as having bipolar disorder, which explains the mania and the psychosis, a bit.

But my friend suggested that I couldn't _blame_ my dad, 'cause 1) he has a problem, and 2) he didn't _mean_ to do it.

This argument always infuriates me. One, I don't think it matters. Someone does something bad, like breaking the law, we generally still hold them accountable. I don't see why that isn't the case here.

And I'm not even sure why accountability _matters_. Like, it doesn't change what happened. It doesn't change the effects it had on the folks affected. Even if someone did it and they were honestly trying their best to be the best possible person ever - which at least in my case wasn't happening - it _still_ has a huge effect on folks.

HB,

Thanks for the thoughts. You're right on the money there. I hope someday to work through my rage at both of my parents, come to see accept them as they are with all their limitations and faults, and move on. But it's gonna take a while.

Wynne,

You also are 100% nail-on-the-head. Not sure where I saw it, but I read somewhere that even if your best friend stomps on your foot by accident, it's still going to hurt. Your breaking the law analogy is perfect.

Thanks as always, guys!
Russ

quote:

My mom did not know how to love so I decided to teach her how it could be done, to do it differently and set the example.

HB

Wow, this so impressive. How strong you are! I hope that this changed the relationship to one that was more satisfying to you. I am also impressed that you were able to let go of the past and focus on the present and the future. I have such a hard time not predicting the future because of the past. But, Im working on it with an amazing T.

PL

quote:

Originally posted by Hummingbird:
Hi Russ
The anger is a killer, literally and figuratively, and it did take me a long time to work through it.

HB,

I totally agree about anger, and I hope it doesn't take me years to work through it. But man, there is a lot of it in there.

I think it's one of those things that I'll just have to keep working on until there's some kind of internal shift where gradually I am not consumed by it anymore.

Russ

Hi Russ,
I know I'm late to the game but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I totally agree with HB that in the end its important to let go of the anger and find forgiveness and I thinked she offered a lot of good insight. Knowing that someone didn't mean to damage you does help when it comes to the forgiveness part. I do know that hearing from the priest who took my dad's last confession that my father loved me and regretted what he had done to me was very healing.

BUT, and its a big but, before we can forgive, we need to allow ourselves to understand what it is we need to forgive. Rushing to the forgiveness part (which I'm DEFINITELY NOT saying you suggested in any way, HB, you were clear it was a hard, long struggle and I agree that it is the endpoint for which we aim.) is sometimes a way to avoid feeling the pain and anger which are a reasonable response to what happened to us, intentionally or not.

For example, take a situation in which a sibling is fighting a terrible illness or is handicaped in some way. Would a sister or brother who sometimes resented the extra attention be wrong? No one is intending to do so, it's just a natural outgrowth of a situation in which no one is doing anything wrong, but that kid is entitled to feeling that way.

And for so much of us, and Russ based on our earlier conversations, I think this is true for both of us, it was made clear, often in an unspoken manner, that we were not to get upset, or angry, or needy, although we had good reasons to be all three. So all the more need to be able to speak about those feelings now.

In one way, your mother's question can be seen as a plea for reparation and restoration. All humans are in need of forgiveness and redemption and learning to give that to each other is an important part of our growth. But from what you've related about your situation, I see it more as a "hey, let's skip the angry, upset part and go straight to the forgiveness, so I can avoid looking at my complicity in what happened to you." I'm not trying to provide you with a license to behave in whatever way you want to and I certainly wouldn't want you to stop in bitterness. But you do have every right to however you feel about what happened to you and to be able to express it in safe place and be heard. No matter why it happened.

AG

Eh. *shrugs* Sign me up for Team Bitter.

I hear they're gonna make me a starter.

Wynne,
Also a viable choice.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
But from what you've related about your situation, I see it more as a "hey, let's skip the angry, upset part and go straight to the forgiveness, so I can avoid looking at my complicity in what happened to you."

DING DING DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!

AG, that's exactly what's she's saying. And that stems from many things, not the least is that my mother thinks I am an ungrateful child. She is, in fact, saying, "ok, we admit that we're not the greatest parents...fine, you're right, we're wrong, whatever...can things be OK again now? What else do you want us to do?"

Yep, that's the ticket right there.

Thanks, AG, and thanks everyone for your awesome (as usual) feedback.

Russ

Russ,
Why is that I feel like we would find each other's mom eerily familiar?

AG

quote:

She is, in fact, saying, "ok, we admit that we're not the greatest parents...fine, you're right, we're wrong, whatever...can things be OK again now? What else do you want us to do?"

Hmm...Yeah mom, if it were that easy you would have gotten it right the first time, I wouldn't be this ungrateful child and we wouldn't be having this conversation. I guess you can sign me up for team bitter too. Sorry guys I'm on a negative roll.

But seriously what would it take for them to say "Hey, I am sorry, I can see where I messed up and I want you to feel free to tell me things you were never able to tell me before and I will listen this time. I can't change the past and how I failed you, but I can do better now." I have actually said something very similar to those words to my daughter many times. I have invited my daughter to be angry with me, to cry and ask me why this and why that. And I will listen to her and validate her, apologize, and explain what I can explain. Our parents may not be able to validate every detail any more than our T's, but they could listen like our T's do to some degree. At least that is what I try to do for my kids. The other night my 16 yr old step son was carying on about something from when he was little that still bothers him. Something I sort of feel he blows out of context, but we sat and listened to him and heard "his feelings" and we accepted "his feelings" because as I have learned we have no right to deny another person their feelings. I realize that we had no intention of hurting him or making him feel unwanted. Just for background info: We used to make him and his brother go outside and play for what he believes was all day every day and never allowed in the house. In reality they were sent out for maybe an hour or two now and then to get some physical exercise and take a break from the television and video games. We've tried to explain this to him several times but he insists it is otherwise. So we deal with his beliefs, right? So we listen and we do not judge and we do not make excuses and he seemed to appreciate that. But I guess someone had to teach me how to do that (thank you T) Maybe somehow we can teach our parents what we need and how they can communicate that to us now. Then again, maybe that is too much to ask for those people. *sigh* sorry Russ I didn't mean to take away from your expereinces and liken them to my step sons. But I just think as parents we all made mistakes, some more serious that others, but our children still need validating and unconditional love and acceptance even as they grow up and become adults. Do I agree with my step sons perception? No, it is pretty wacked out from reality, but somehow that is how he feels and beleives and we honored his feelings by listening and trying to amend what we can. You know?

Does this make sense? Does this even fit in here or did I totally hijack this post? I am a little wacked out myself right now so I am not thinking with a clear head. If I am way out of line here please tell me. I just think there is still a lot our parents can do to help us. As parents we do not resign ourselves to our job ever being done. I know my father's expressions of regret and remorse have been vary helpful to my healing. He really seemed to understand what he did to hurt me and he apologized. He didn't change a thing from the past, but he at least made an effort to mend the present. It does make a difference and it can be done, I believe.

I am sorry for your mothers stubborness and guilt trippin you Russ. My mom was like that too. If she were alive today she would be making similar remarks as your mom. Please don't think I am making light of your past and your feelings or comparing your circumstances to my step son's. Not at all.
JM

quote:

"Hey, I am sorry, I can see where I messed up and I want you to feel free to tell me things you were never able to tell me before and I will listen this time. I can't change the past and how I failed you, but I can do better now."

JM

You have stated this so well. I am learning slowly but surely through therapy, that my parents had a lot to do with my issues today. I can't blame them for everything, but now I am able to see why I do some of the things I do. Now that I know this, Mom guilt is raging.
I of course, turn it all back on myself and feel so guilty for my son's problems. Thank you for giving me the words to say to him. He is only 18 and there is still a lot of time for me to change my behaviors toward him so that he can heal. Reading what you wrote about your experience with your step-son and how you handled it gives me the strength to have this discussion with my son.

Thanks!!!! You rock!!!!!!!!

PL

JM,

To be honest, even hearing you talk about how something that was a big deal for your stepson but not for you - or not in reality - made me, well, start applying that to my situation.

And how even Tfella has called me "sensitive" before. And how (since it's true) even something like that gets me started thinking about how it's also kinda my fault and how I react strongly to even small things.

Like this.

JM,

No worries. The point I take away from your post is that you listen to your kids and allow them the chance to express themselves without you being my dad: impatient, dismissive, disrespectful, condescending, hostile and sneering...and that was if the colossal jerk actually took 20 seconds to "listen" to me. Your kids are so much the better for you having honored what they have to say.

Russ

Wynne,
Do NOT make me get out the HTML slapper!

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
Wynne,
Do NOT make me get out the HTML slapper!

AG

*frown* *trudges off* Fine, fine.

OK, then (putting down HTML slapper).

Well, JM

I did it. I had the conversation with my son. I had a very hard time getting the words out, but I did. I cried (which if you were my T, you would know was a BIG deal!). He heard me and seemed very accepting. I guess he will only believe me if I show him that I'm serious. I hope he gives me the chance to prove that I have changed. Being honest with him and apologizing has lifted a huge weight off my shoulders.

Russ

I know you are angry and you have every reason to be. But, I think you need to find a way to open your mom's eyes. I'm not saying it will be easy or quick. I'm guessing that therapy is not an option for her. My mom wouldn't have gone either. I guess I'm just asking you to give her a little break. She learned her parenting skill from her parents. Having just had this experience as the mom, I'm seeing it from the other side. I never intended to brush my son's feelings off. And I'm not so sure I did it all the time, but he is hurting and I need to find a way to make it better between us. Admitting that you caused your child pain, is a very difficult thing. I imagine that deep down inside, your mom is hurting and I think she wants you to get better soon so that she won't feel so guilty. Of course, I am not your mom, so I could be totally off base here. I hope you don't take offense at what I have said. It is just my opinion and I'm just explaining my experience.

PL

HB,
I totally get what you are saying about pain and anger being different, but the type of anger you describe is an uncontrolled anger that results from years of not being heard and addressed. My T has worked long and hard to get me to stop being afraid of the emotion "anger" because feeling anger is ok, being angry is ok. We've been told our whole lives that it was not ok to express our anger and we likely did not have a safe environment to express it, and perhaps even witnessed (and feared) rage from others which is unresolved anger. If we learn that anger is something to be "feared" then we wont be able to express it, but it _will_ manifest itself, it has to, and that is when it can be unhealthy and make us ill.

If I may, the vicious circle you describe is pent up anger. When not given proper expression it can feel like that vacuum or black hole you describe and when it sucks you in and damages everything in its vivinity, this is most definitely rage.

Anger is something I did not used to allow my children to express, but now I allow them but I help them to contain it. It can be very emotional, but understanding where it comes from and giving that opportunity to be heard is a marvelous healing experience. It's what we are angry about that surfaces and it's important that we feel justified in our anger about it and from there we learn to put it into perspective.

Anger needs a contained expression. To be able to 'fairly' calmly say to someone "I am angry about this and this is why..." Is an amazing freedom. A person who doesn't feel like they are dodging darts and daggers is often more willing to listen too. Each emotion is like a ball and your expression of that emotion is how you throw the ball. Do you throw it gently so someone else can catch it or do you heave it at someone's head?

Anger is just as much a viable, expressable, and containable emotion as is grief. The outter continuum of the core emotions are a sign of not dealing with the underlying emotions and those prevent us from dealing with what we need to deal with. I think I seen a diagram of emotions somewhere that looked sort of like a color wheel with extensions. Listing the basic human emotions at the core of the wheel and extending pedals or arms from each emotion with more acute type emotions. It might be something like this: Grief/ sadness/ depression. The outter extensions of our emotions are a result of our emotions being put off and not dealt with and in turn prevent us from dealing with them even further. The diagram is a nice idea to get a picture, but in no way are emotions that neat and orderly, and I believe that the feeling pain can relate to grief or anger. Any negative emotions can feel painful. But I think the theory is that working through the negative, more painful emotions opens up the way to experience more positive feelings on a more constant level.

I hope you don't mind my 2 cents worth. Yes, you can keep the change.

I will see if I can find that diagram on the web and paste it here later.

Here is one theory, though this is similar to what I've seen before I am not sure if this the the one I had in mind. Obvioulsy there are many theories out there.
Theories of Emotions
JM

Wow PL! I am so happy for you. Do you feel a "healing connection" between you and your son? That is how I sort of feel when I do that with my children. It feels good for everyone involved. Yes, it may take some time for your son to learn to trust that, but don't get discouraged and just continue to be patient. Patient like a T.

When you demonstrate that you are now able to safely contain your sons emotions he will test the waters. My youngest step son does so very gently and cautiously, but my oldest step son is more pushing the limits to see how far it goes. So we have had to help him see that there are boundaries to this and that there needs to be containment in his expressions. He kind of likes to rail against those and try to get us to react. But he is also the one who will break down in tears in a short time if we remain consistent and firm. He is also 18 years old as your son is. My daughter is 23...it is never too late. Look at us, eh? I don't have my parents to work through this with so I think by giving our children opportunities for expression that we wish we had and we have learned are neccesary, and by giving them an appropriate healthy response is the best compliment one can pay to their therapy. What resonates within us begins to revurberate from us and resonate into our families and we can make such a difference now that we couldn't before.

Thank you for sharing that. That is so touching and heartwarming. I am glad someone was able to gain something positive that I was afraid came off as emotional ranting.
JM

quote:

Originally posted by Wynne:
To be honest, even hearing you talk about how something that was a big deal for your stepson but not for you - or not in reality - made me, well, start applying that to my situation.

And how even Tfella has called me "sensitive" before. And how (since it's true) even something like that gets me started thinking about how it's also kinda my fault and how I react strongly to even small things...

Oh dear! Wynne,
I certainly didn't mean to imply that my step sons reality being different from mine and my husbands reality of the situation invalidates my step sons perception or feelings he experienced from it. In this case what my SS _suffered_ emotionally was what we honored. He _felt_ like we made him stay outside "all day" and he felt "unwanted" because of it. If we just insist "No we did not make you stay outside all day long!" We would never get to the source of his feelings of being unwanted which btw tem from deeper and older isues, and we would never get an opportunity to tell him and demonstrate that is what is not true. He is wanted and we love him very much. Eventually he will see that "Yes, we made you go outside when you didn't want to and would rather be in the house watching tv and playing video games (like you do at your moms) But were you never allowed to come in and eat? Get a drink? Go to the bathroom? When did you find time to play some of you vgs here?" Pretty soon they start to connect and see what is true w/o dishonoring their feelings. He may always believe that we made him stay outside all day even in the rain, the freezing snow and the scolding hot temperatures (all at the same time). Usually that type of over sensitivity or magnification of truths is telling you there is something else going on. Hopefully he wont "believe" that the rest of his life, but I for one know that these beliefs take a long time to uproot and is a very delicate and sometimes very painful process especially when trauma and repeated trauma add to the complexity of them.

Each of my children have abandonment issues stemming from divorce and their own unique circumstances they experienced from that. Somewhere in there lie the feelings of being unwanted, the grief, the anger and the gamut of emotions they each feel.

So just because you are sensitive, does not dismiss your hurt. Instead of being "kinda your fault" as to _how_ you react, look into your reactions and figure out why. Please don't shut yourself down because you think you are sensitive. You are sensitive for a reason and so am I, btw. Its ok.

I hope this helps and doesn't sound preachy.
JM

Eh. I have the same problem when I read blogs from marriage and family therapists, like Everybody Needs Therapy. The above link (and all the ones in the "marriage and relationship" category) always make me uncomfortable.

I've got a father-unit who has completely failed to acknowledge everything that's happened, and a mom that's sorry things got/get bad but that isn't leaving her (fairly abusive) situation. She didn't leave when I was younger, and begged her to, and she's not leaving now. Nothing that I can do will change that, or her situation, and that's something I actually have to accept and move on from.

And I've been saying for years that "it wasn't that bad." So I guess it's just hard to hear it from a parent's perspective, when it really _wasn't_ that bad. I know that's how my rents think of it. And I'm doubting myself all the time about what actually went on.

I guess I admire you parents who're actually talking to your kids and trying. But it's still hard to hear, 'cause I've always wanted something like that to happen, and it never has for me. I don't have any particular reason to think it will. One of the reasons I'd like to slot up for Team Bitter.

PL,
That is awesome what you did with your son! My T keeps telling me that hurt and disappointment happen in all relationships because no one is perfect but what is important is how we heal the disruptions. Most importantly, are we willing to hear and honor the feelings of those we hurt? I have talked to my girls about the fact that someday they may be very angry or hurt about things I did (although I've been in therapy and working on things for a long time, I know that I have not always been as good a mother as I would have liked because of my wounds.) but I want them to come to me so we can talk about it.

The worst part about my relationship with my mother and I suspect, Russ also, is that I am NOT seen nor am I heard. In some ways I don't exist as a person for my mom. I certainly didn't as a child. I really do understand that my mom had a lousy childhood, one that makes mine look like a stroll down the beach probably, and that she did her best with what she had. But she also failed me in significant ways. It is the failure to be able to hear my pain and let me talk about what happened that hurts so much and prevents the relationship from healing. I have to deny part of who I am in order to be close to her, and its a price I'm no longer willing to pay.

So I think what you're doing for your son is actually the highest form of sacrifice a parent can do for a child. To be willing to face our own shortcomings and honor their experience. To put down our own defenses and need to feel like we did well, in order to hear them. Even if I don't have that with my mom, it's healing just to know that you and JM are doing that with your kids. Thanks for talking about it.

HB,
Thank you for clarifying what you meant, I didn't completely understand. And I actually agree that anger can sometimes be a turning outward (great description!), that we feel anger to avoid feeling pain. I'm doing a lot of work with anger right now and I know that part of the appeal of being angry was that it wsa the only time I didn't feel scared. But I think JM is right, the reason I have a problem with anger was also that I learned to be so scared of it, that it wasn't ok to feel, it was too dangerous to feel. And that's what has caused a huge reservoir to build up. And occasionally burst out at inappropriate times and in inappropriate ways. Part of why I want to learn to deal with it is to escape the trap of always being angry. I used anger as a bludgeon on my marriage for a long time because it was a fairly effective way to control my husband and even,sometimes a way to connect when all else failed.

But anger is an emotion and you don't stop feeling it just because you think its bad. My T keeps telling me that anger is not dangerous and not wrong, its just another emotion that needs to be regulated and expressed. That part of learning to express it is to be able to do so in a way which other people can hear and you don't lose your ability to hear other people. That in a committed, loving relationship, there is room to be angry at each other without destroying or harming the relationship.

I hope this is making sense because I'm getting really triggered writing it. There was so much completely justifiable anger in my childhood that I wasn't allowed to express. I should have been angry about what was done to me, and about my needs being ignored, so an important part of healing has been to have that anger witnessed and understood. We get angry because we believe we matter, that we are worthwhile enough that we should be treated right. To supress all your anger, for me, meant in many ways saying I wasn't worthwhile enough to get angry over. Does anyone get upset when you kick a trashcan? So the acknowledgement of legitimacy of my anger is important to my healing. If I just continue to see anger as a "wrong" emotion, I will have to continue to deny an important part of myself.

So I totally agree with you that uncontrolled, unregulated anger does become a black hole that sucks you in, but not all anger is uncontrolled or is even bad to express in the right way.

Thank you for discussing this, as I can see its something that you're thought long and hard about and dealt with. And since I'm in the middle of dealing with it, my opinions are certainly subject to change.

And I really did understand and agree with a lot of what you said. Raging is no way to go through life.

AG

one of the points my T is trying get through to me on this whole issue is that, ultimately, what needs to stop before any healing, understanding or forgiveness can take place is the emotional bullying, guilt-tripping and manipulation, and this process has to begin with me asking them questions in response to their questions like, "do you think he did it intentionally?"

i need to respond - which i kind of did - by saying, "i have no idea. i'm not him. you need to ask him. why do you think it even matters? tell me what you think. what does this question mean for you?"

i asked my T yesterday, "what if my mom asks me whether or not i think she was a good mother" and he said, "that question is pure manipulation. it puts you in a corner while completely skipping over the heart of the matter. the heart of the matter is understanding why this stuff happened, not whether or not to label someone 'good' or 'bad.'"

once there's understanding on my part, then healing can start, and the only way to get to that place is to cut the BS, get my parents to look at themselves instead of me. if they're not willing to do that, then all i can do is ask them the questions and draw my own conclusions from their lack of willingness to look at themselves.

Russ

Russ,

I think I'd like your T. A lot.

HB,
For the record I didn't think that you were minimizing or judging my anger, so need for an apology. Actually I was afraid I came on too strong, because I know that I am once again in the midst of dealing with anger. Not my favorite subject. I have really appreciated the discussion, as hard as it has been, because in so many ways it goes to the heart of healing.

quote:

In a funny way all i was actually trying to say is that you already have legitimacy and value as an extraordinarily precious and unique human being. That is what beams out of you over the air waves and around the world and it belongs to you simply because you are alive. If anger helps you find it then good for you, but do you need the anger? No way, most definitely not, it is just the practice you need at standing up and speaking up for yourself. The value and worth is obvious to anyone who takes the time to hear you.

You can NOT begin to imagine what it meant to hear that today, thank you so much. And I totally agree, acknowledging my anger is a way post on the way to be able to stand up and speak for myself.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Hummingbird:
standing up and speaking up for yourself.

+ 1,000,000,000

HB JM AG

Thanks for all the positive support. I really appreciate it.
Having a rough day today - son is having a rough day.
His moods control my moods. Luckily I saw my
T today. She has grounded me a little bit. Being a mom (a good mom in my opinion) is so hard. Sorry, I'm just feeling sorry for myself and very tired of it all today.

PL

quote:

Originally posted by puppy lover:
HB JM AG

Thanks for all the positive support. I really appreciate it.
Having a rough day today - son is having a rough day.
His moods control my moods. Luckily I saw my
T today. She has grounded me a little bit. Being a mom (a good mom in my opinion) is so hard. Sorry, I'm just feeling sorry for myself and very tired of it all today.

PL

PL, I wish I had a fraction of your patience. Also, in my opinion, being a parent in therapy basically means you are more conscious, self-aware and awake than many parents. That's something unique and to be proud of.

Russ

PL,

I agree with Russ. You have your hands full and you are doing a great job! You are stronger than you feel right now. We ALL get tired of it sometimes. It is the hardest job we'll ever know and you are working so hard for yourself and with your son and you should be proud!

Yes, their moods definitely have an impact on us. I've never known someone else who can bring me so much joy and so much hurt. When I first entered therapy and was heartbroken over my daughter, my T was shocked when I told her "I never want to love like this again!" Thankfully things have worked out for the better since then. But it is tremendously difficult.

Glad you are here.

Russ

I am trying to get better at the patience thing. I know I have changed so much since I started therapy and I see my son's problems in a different way. It's just taking so long for him to realize that we are all here to help him.

JM

Thanks. I never imagined that I would be in such a place with one of my children. I know that I have to stay strong for him. I will never give up. At a moment like this, when I am really down, your kind support really helps. I need to take the next step to help him, and it really scares me. We have a good support system in place, but he has to be willing to help himself. I just have to believe that we will get there.

PL

quote:

We have a good support system in place, but he has to be willing to help himself. I just have to believe that we will get there.

PL,
That is very true and as parents it's hard waiting for our children to catch onto that. You just wish you could do it for them, but we know that wouldn't benefit them. Whenever I feel like I am slipping in my resolve to deal calmly I reflect on the patience of my T. I've never learned or experienced patience from anywhere else so that is my only experience with it.

Hang tight PL, you will get through this. Not perfectly or infallibly, and maybe not even gracefully, but you will get your son through this. He is already better off for what you have done to help him. With that, it is impossible not to have a positive impact.
JM

I'm so glad I fell upon this web site. You guys are all so amazing. I know I was guided here by a powerful spirit.

Son is happier today = Mom is happier today.

Thanks for getting me through yesterday. Between all of you and my T, I lived to face another day, take a breather, regroup and push on forward.

PL

Ok HB

(she gets out a REALLY BIG pad of paper and a gigantic pen)
Thanks

PL