Hi Quell -

It seems like you feel stuck. Stuck in therapy with someone who isn't giving you what you need. And just because you're experiencing transference with T due to her non-responsiveness doesn't mean that you need to tough it out with her. I don't really think you deserve to have another important relationship in which you are constantly not getting what you need. I believe there's a quirky therapist out there for you. And BTW, I think you expressed yourself quite well.

-Red Tomato

hi quell,

i also think there is a quirky therapist out there for you, you just have to find him/her. to me it doesnt sound like 'it's you' just because you're experiencing this again with another T. she may be another T who is not a good match for you.

quote:

I think a blank slate therapist is hard if you had a blank slate mother.

i can imagine! too much negative transference might be getting in the way rather than be helpful.

puppet

Thanks for hearing me RT and puppet, and for your comments, too. I really appreciate it.
I am working on finding another T but I feel all kinds of mixed up about it all.
Guess that's to be expected.

Thank you!

Quell

Quell,
I've been thinking over your post in the back of my mind for a couple of days--sorry to be jumping in late, but both time constraints and sort of wanting to mull it over prevented an immediate response on my part.

Counseling should be all about what you need. You are certainly within your rights to ask for more interactiveness on the part of a therapist you employ. Therapists are trained, though, to avoid making it "about them"--I'm sure you know that--so you probably won't happen across a practitioner who shares in just the way you would like without understanding what that is.

I remember how maddening it was when I first began therapy to know nothing about this person I was going in and talking with about the most personal parts of my life without knowing anything about her. I had not even sought therapy, it had been recommended to me by a doctor, and so I had no idea what to expect. Whatever I thought it would be, it wasn't what i got: a stirring up of anxiety coupled with a weird obsession with this person and my therapy sessions. I began changing, but in ways that were more like blowing up parts of a house in order to rebuild than like redecorating. I did not know anything about the person dispensing the dynamite, and did not feel like I had any right to ask. I had no idea what the rules were.

The dynamite analogy is not meant to suggest that my therapist was intentionally abrupt or insensitive. However, confronting painful experiences and their results was very hard no matter how the idea might have been introduced.

I remember the first time she said, "I'm going to tell you a story from my own life." I listened very intensely. I started picking up on different little personal things here and there, until I started to get a sense of her. I don't think she was comfortable with that at first, with sharing, I mean, but over time she got used to doing so because I think she saw that it put me more at ease.

If I were beginning therapy now, I think I would ask, right off the bat, about personal details: do you have children? Have you been to therapy yourself? (Still don't know that one about my therapist.) Why did you become a therapist? Are you willing to answer questions I have down the road, such as whether you have siblings, or what your school experiences were like?

I think it would be a lot less painful to know right off the bat.

I am not sure it takes a quirky therapist (although, arguably, deciding to become a therapist is kind of a quirky thing.) It just takes one really willing to listen. It is tricky, because the therapy still has to be about the client, but since it is supposed to be a healing relationship it needs to meet your needs. It the therapist becomes too much of a "friend" that enters murky ethical waters--and you shouldn't have to pay someone who focuses on him- or herself too much.

Would you maybe be able to tell a therapist your blank-slate concept--that you've had enough of that? I feel like you need, maybe not a "quirky" therapist, but one who can really tune in.I might be really off-base with that, just trying to understand.

I apologize about responding to so much of this with my own experiences--not trying to hijack your post. Does any of this sound like it is hitting the mark at all?

http://psychcafe.ca/eve/forums...3059001#315003059001

Exploring and SP-- I am so glad that you thought about me and told me about your own experiences. I know you know that it helps so much, but I understand that you want to be thoughtful and gentle, too. I really do appreciate all of your thoughts and insights. I say, go for it with any and all suggestions!!

I really need to hear perspectives outside my own. I think all it can do is get me closer to healing, you know? OK, sure, I do not always love "constructive alternative perspectives," but I need them! And your comments and your own stories really do help me think better.

Yes, I need a T who can make me feel more like they are tuned in to me. Yes, my mother was not tuned in to me. She was not open or comfortable with herself. She never abused me. She took care of us. She answered my questions with "none of your business." She reminded us constantly that she was our mother, not our friend. She did not want to be close to me. She was not mean to me, really, but she was passive-aggressive, dismissive, frustrated, alcoholic, and not interested in anything past survival (and to be fair, getting us into college, which I am very happy for). I don't remember her ever teaching me how to do anything.

I think that I was bewildered about how I felt inside after my dad died young, and bewildered about how other people's insides worked and bewildered about what we were all doing or not doing and why. I don't know who those people around me were, growing up. I don't know what was inside them. There was nothing much to read. In a way I think of them all as dead people. Like they were there, but there was nothing inside them that I could get out (see pinata story, page 9). And I couldn't get in. I didn't know what was inside me, either.

I don't want to know about therapists and their personal lives. Married, unmarried, kids, eh... I am sometimes interested in so far as it relates to me, as in "You know how cute kids can be, right? Do you have kids? Oh, well then you know..." I don't want to be friends. I don't care what they do on the weekends.

I do want to feel close and known. I want something past "safety" and not being judged. I want to be welcomed and invited and engaged with. I want a therapist to lean in and look me in the eye and say my name and try to get me to come out, and be there when I do.

I want my transference to be an opportunity to correct something, not a diagnostic tool for me to be aware of and fix on my own.

I want to have a relationship with them---in the room. I want them to remember me when I come back---to the room. I want them to know me and for me to see that they know me. They don't have to be exactly right about me as long as they are trying. I can correct them if they speak as though they know me and they are off. We can talk about that. I want them to jot down a note about me or what happened during the session after I leave and look at it before they see me the next week. I want them to say something that shows me that I exist in their minds. I don't care if it is because they wrote it down and sneaked a peek before I came in. If they care enough to do that for me, I like that. I want them to be there with me and share their reactions to me with me, and their thoughts about me with me, and I want them to remember who I am or who they think I am and why.

I spent almost 4 years with T. I stayed with a man who wouldn't call me by my name even though he knew that it mattered to me and that I wanted him to do that for me. I stayed with him after he admitted that other therapists would find such a thing a bit over the top, to have a boundary like that. In my mind it is a boundary that tells people that calling them by their name is "too intimate."

My mom has good boundaries. She is 80. I am 50. I still can't get in. She doesn't need me, either. She never wants to need me. In her mind, the future after my dad died was all about us kids. We weren't allowed to look back at her or know how she felt. She wasn't even very comfortable accepting our love and our feelings for her. With a T, even if it is all about me, it doesn't feel like it is all about me if they aren't there, too. Because then I am just in that world of dead people and myself again.

Near the end, I gave old T another cartoon. It was a picture of a two-headed pinata. One head was Ts and the other was my mother's. Below the pinata was me with a stick and a blindfold. The pinata was pretty well beat up. I drew sweat drops coming off my head. Below the pinata, which has finally opened up, I stand, with one hand pulling up the blindfold to see what is finally coming out of the pinata. It is One Tootsie Roll, floating slowly down from the smashed belly. Along with the one tootsie roll, a strip of that old fashioned button candy. The little colored dots stuck to paper. In the cartoon, I say, "God damn, you stupid piece of s***t!" I am not talking to the pinata. I am saying this to myself, for working so hard on that thing to only get the tiny bit of candy, like I always do. Next to me in the cartoon, I drew a smaller version of myself stamping my feet and looking angry. Next to that version of me I drew a smaller version of me with a bent head, walking away dejectedly. I shared this cartoon with old T and also with new T.

This week I told new T that I don't want a three-headed pinata (old T, my mom, and then her). I told new T that I was afraid I was setting US (me and her) up for the same kind of thing. I said that I didn't want to just come in and talk and cry and spill my guts week after week and then one week look up at her and be like "Hello, are you there?" when I finally have finished "sharing." I told her that I didn't really know what the candy was that I was trying to get out of the pinata.

She told me that people sometimes come to therapy because they want to be understood and appreciated and to feel connected to the world.

That is all she said. I know I could have run with that statement somehow and tried to connect it to how I feel. I did ask her a question about what she meant by "appreciated." She gave me another one-sentence answer. She did not ask me any quesions. She did not ask if I needed help to figure out what the candy is for me. She did not ask if the three things she mentioned resonated with me. She explained "appreciated" and then resumed sitting there looking at me. Sh**t, she did not even do that thing where they repeat what you just said in a soft voice that sounds empathetic..."you don't really know what the candy is that you want..."

I know I was being stubborn, but I just so felt like I am not going to do it this time. I am not going to just go with it and spill more guts and talk and talk and cry and then have the session end and then go home and feel bad and realize that T never really said anything back.

I have friends who have told me that no therapist is going to be as smart as I want them to be. I have two different friends who have both independently compared me to "Good Will Hunting." I know that sometimes I want people to read my mind, but I am WORKING so hard on it.

Old T would sometimes tell me that I got to drive the bus--meaning that I got to decide what we talk about and how fast we go and where we go and so on, I suppose. After a long time, I realized that I don't want to drive the bus. Just like in a way I don't want it to be all about me. I want it to be US in the room. I want someone to drive the bus with me. I have been driving my own bus for 50 years. It does not feel like a special privilege to be allowed to drive the bus in therapy. It feels like me living a life that no one else has their hand in. I want US to negotiate and discuss where we are going and why and how it is working. I don't want to be alone in here anymore.

Thanks, Quell, for writing all that. Really.

-RT

Hollow, your response is completely great. I hope your creativity creeps back. I think the comparison to someone trying to stop you from getting beat up is very deep. My new T actually did say something about my old Ts intellectual response to me and that maybe I wanted a more emotional response from him.

It makes me feel like maybe if I got what I say I wanted, though, then what would I do? Would I run if I got an emotional response?

Pengs, exploring, you both gave me an idea about knowing something about your T. I say that I don't need to know about their lives, but maybe if I reached out to them and was sort of more actively interested in them and they did share some things that weren't the typical personal disclosure types of things that they shy away from, then maybe I would feel like WE were closer. You know, like even knowing what makes them laugh or asking more questions about what they think about people and clients and therapy in general, not in a testing kind of way, but in a way to give us some common ground to talk about and share thougts about. Like maybe if I did what I want them to do more. Like even with new T and what she said above, I could have asked more questions.

It has been hard to ask them questions because I do pick up that they are uncomfortable with personal disclosures, and guess what? So is my mom! Hence, her favorite response even today at age 80, "none of your business." But, I could try harder and maybe we could find a way to make the answer to "how was your week" not feel like a stupid generic formality like how my mother would occasionally throw out a "how's school?" back in the day. Maybe we could have something neutral that we could sort of talk about in depth, like music or books or something and it wouldn't be too personal for T and I could get to know T better and then probably feel it more when T responds to me. Does that make sense? Like maybe I should try to be more engaged with T somehow and model for her what I want...?

You know what you want in a T, Quell, and you know what you need. Most importantly, you know that you are not receiving these things from your current T.
I think it's a great idea to try a T like your friend suggested - it really may suit your style better.
I've never had a blank slatey kind of therapist. They've always been interactive, attuned, empathetic.
I neither need nor want to know much about my T's lives - I like the freedom of not having "responsibility" per se in this kind of relationship. But I don't mind a small amount of chit-chat, a tidbit here and there - like one would have with another customer waiting in a long line at the store. Just enough to make it real and connected but not too much...
I think you'll find your way, Quell, to the right T for you. It may take some searching, but you'll get there.

Quell, I just want to say there are lots of Ts out there who are more interactive. Plenty of Ts will adapt, too, when they know what you need. I think if your current T doesn't show signs of adapting, it might not be so hard to find a T who is a better fit. Personally I regret spending a long time trying to 'make it work' with therapists who were not good fits. There are others out there. Good luck.

(((QUELL)))

quote:

am saying this to myself, for working so hard on that thing to only get the tiny bit of candy, like I always do.

This really resonated with me. The fact that you see it, that you don't want to work so hard to get a tiny bit of candy, is a sign of strength and growth.

quote:

This week I told new T that I don't want a three-headed pinata (old T, my mom, and then her). I told new T that I was afraid I was setting US (me and her) up for the same kind of thing.

quote:

I stayed with a man who wouldn't call me by my name even though he knew that it mattered to me and that I wanted him to do that for me. I stayed with him after he admitted that other therapists would find such a thing a bit over the top, to have a boundary like that. In my mind it is a boundary that tells people that calling them by their name is "too intimate."

It stands out as being a very difficult situation to deal with. I'm glad you are being more picky.

Quell, you paint your story so powerfully. You and About--would you be up for posting a comic or two, or are they two personal? We could start a forum art gallery. :-)

I am impressed with how you described your needs and am glad that you really understand them. It sounds like you need from a therapist what you should have gotten from your mom? That is, empathy, focus on you, boundaries that kept your importance in mind and weren't just kept because they were there ("None of your business," "I won't call you by your name"--both of these sound unfeeling and unkind.)

The name issue blows me away, to tell you the truth.

About Good Will Hunting--he ended up with a quirky therapist who not only got through to him but was also changed by the process. That is important, I think--for the therapist to regard the encounter as important enough to change a few neural pathways of his or her own. In other words, to really be engaged.

I did not start feeling somewhat secure with my T until I understood a bit about her, but she has always been careful to limit any anecdotes or personal sharing to what she feels is good for me. I realized this when I learned through overhearing something that she had moved, but she had not mentioned even the possibility of moving to me. The information she shares is always in the interest of meeting my therapeutic needs. She can be maddeningly quiet sometimes when I wish she would ask a question, but overall the "candy" falls.

Your thoughts on ways your T could have mined the whole pinata metaphor really made me think. She could have even said, "I wonder if you'd like to tell me more about this," or any of those sometimes tired ways Ts have of continuing a dialogue. They are tired because they work, much of the time. What surprises me is that you were telling her that you needed more from a T, and she responded as though each sentence was costing her cash.

Also, she offered her interpretation of what your candy MIGHT mean. Okay. Sometimes an interpretation from a T can hit the mark, but even beginning Ts learn that it is not what the T thinks but what the client thinks that matters. No wonder you felt discouraged! It's like you said, "I'm hungry," and she handed you a Gameboy. Obviously, in therapy it is not the therapist's job to feed you, but it would be her job to explore your options for feeding yourself with you.

Maybe I am off the mark with my thoughts, but really, your feelings on this make sense to me.It doesn't seem to me like you are asking for too much.

One question, if you don't mind my asking--have you felt like this T "got" you in previous sessions, or is the relationship too new to really tell?

I am really happy to hear all of your responses, every one.

I guess it has only been 24 hours, but I feel much better for now. I have appointments with a couple of aedp therapists this week, but there is a big concern about insurance, so I don't know what will happen. So far from the short conversations I have had on the phone, they seem to know what I am talking about in terms of what I think I need, which I told them was something a bit opposite of someone who does primarily psychoanalytic psychodynamic therapy. They all understood and assured me that they are not at all blank-slatey.

I have an appointment tomorrow.

Today, I am not having any second thoughts about leaving newT, so that is good for now.

Lucy and Jones, thank you for the confirmation about finding someone who fits me better! And Jones, what you said about regretting spending time trying to "make it work" sort of rang in my ears today, too.

Smilingpenguin, it helped to hear that you left a couple of Ts after 4-6 months. Also you reminded me of the trust issue, which I think I will do well to remember. Even if a new aedp T is a candy-pusher, I will probably not accept the attention well if I don't trust her, so I need to keep that in mind.

quote:

I'm not saying your T is right/wrong for you, or that its all down to transference but if you're seeing a pattern of relating, my experience has been its worth asking yourself what aspects of that could be what you're bringing to the relationship?

Also what you said here, I need to think about too. Although is it enough that I understand some of the ways I react because of my mother?

Liese! Thank you for bringing signs of strength and growth to my attention. LOL. This is true if I think about now compared to when I started with OldT.

Ha ha to you too, exploring. Being hungry and being handed a gameboy! Nice analogy. My cartoons are strong in content and weak in artistic merit, but I have absolutely no problem sharing them--if I can figure out the technology.

I think that new T has helped me more in the past, when I was still seeing old T, and not as much since I left oldT. Most of the time that I saw her was around her helping me process my relationship with old T. So at those times she was a welcome relief and I also felt that she was smarter than old T and also a little warmer and a little more understanding. Since I have been seeing her every week, I have shared a lot about my mother and I have gotten very emotional in session, which I thought was good. But then I noticed that I shared a lot with old T at the beginning, too, and got emotional, and then when I looked up from that initial phase, I started to expect stuff from him and it wasn't there. This is why I was paying attention to new T this way lately. I felt like I was doing the same thing.

I guess I feel more like she understood "therapy" for people "like me" much better than old T did, but not necessarily does she "get me" in particular, I think.

Hollow, I think you can both appreciate your T AND give him a hard time for feeling scared and hurt by a misattunement. Ask him this, because I think it is true. It is OK for both of those things to exist at the same time. One thing I have sort of learned in the past few years is that it is not an either/or situation in relationships. It took a long time to learn this and I still struggle with it because it doesn't make sense to the part of me that wants things to be one way or another and to the parts of me that easily feel guilty if there are contradictions or if I change my mind. Those things are OK, though, you know what I mean?

I, of course, would say Hell ya, play a song. I love that idea! But, I have no idea how he would feel about that. I brought a CD in to T about after about a year. I thought it would be cool to start a few sessions with a song. Um, you won't be surprised to hear that he was not comfortable with that. So we played one song at very low volume because he was concerned about other people in the suite hearing it.

I like your reasons for wanting to try playing a song. It makes great sense to me. I hope it helps and I hope your T sees it as more information from you to help him adapt to your needs! And to remind him why he is lucky to have you.

I'm glad I wrote everything that I did this weekend. I like the idea of being able to update the story after I find a better T. Thank you everyone.