Liese,

I have a hard time thinking of any positive memories of my mother. I know what you mean by training your mother to behave differently. I spent years trying to figure out how to get my mother to treat considerately. I did what she wanted, I argued and fought with her, I tried explaining how I felt and what I wanted and it didn't make a difference. Now that I've given up and I don't care anymore she changes. She says thank you for coming or calling (before she demanded I call her, if I missed a day she would start the conversation with what happened I thought you died when I didn't hear from you) and things like I enjoyed talking to you. I told my T tonight that I am so angry now because she obviously could behave differently and she chose not to all those years I tried to communicate and improve the relationship.

It is actually painful for me to watch some of my friends with their mother's now because I am grieving what I never had in my life.

(((Liese))) I have stayed away fom 'mother' issues with good reasons but 'felt' I 'should' give her a new year's call and just did!!! Why the f#@k do we keep trying - I cannot stand the woman - I prayed all my life to have been adopted!! Would love to be able to talk more however!!!

I wish I could have had children myself as I would have known exactly how to be a good mum as you all who have suffered at the hands of mothers have become great mums!!

This is a huge issue for me - I believe mothers are either the greatest people on God's earth or the most harmful people!! This is just because, even at my age, I know how my

LY says, "Mommy is pretty like an angel when she plays the piano and sings and I love her. But, when she looks at me her face is empty." I think that pretty much summarizes my experience of my mom from very early on. My mom is amazing, talented, passionate...but not about her kids. Memories are of being forgotten for hours after school, but being "rewarded" with candy, instead of apologized to. Or no shows to teacher conferences, back-to-school nights, five years of playing sports, etc. She was busy. She worked hard. But, when she was home, she was asleep. If she was awake, she was tired (and I'm assuming depressed). She had a breakdown around first grade for me, after a very tumultuous period. I don't remember it at all. I'm not sure whether it got dissociated with all this other BS or if I just never had enough of a relationship that it made a difference that she was out of commission, rocking in the corner (according to oldest sister), wandering the streets unable to recognize her own kids, throwing herself at my dad because she wanted a new baby. Then, when I was older, it was tired and angry and sometimes unhinged. There are some parts who hate her...incidentally, they hate themselves just as much for not managing to love her like they should. Coincidentally, she held it together so well at work that if I ever show up there, I just get to be my mom's kid who went to Stanford, which is also about her somehow, for her groupies to admire. She wasn't a good housekeeper (she's a bit of a hoarder), she was an awful cook, she was rarely home and I liked it better when she stayed away or slept. But, she is my mom. She gave me life. She worked hard. I usually had a place to live. I usually had passable food on the table. I lived in a good city, went to a good school, excelled there. And, after all, she DOES look beautiful like an angel when she plays and sings. I just wish she could have looked that way for her kids. She had something she was meant for and it was to perform. She wasn't meant to be a mom, it seems to me. And I know she has her own pain that led to that. But, all it makes me feel is like I wasn't even meant to exist, because it was a mistake for her to be a parent at all...

Sorry for being such a downer. It's kind of just what poured out and what I get for writing right after coming home from a session with all my parts in flux and stuff. I feel awful having written this, because as an adult, she has tried a bit. But, I don't know if she behaves better now because I have all the power, as I have refused to need her for anything for more than a decade of my life, or because she has actually changed a bit. I hope it is the latter, but if it is, I feel awfully guilty that I am past allowing her to play any meaningful role in my life. I can forgive what got broken, I think. I can let her be a grandma. But, I don't know a way to feel like her daughter. I wish I could make myself feel that way. I feel horrible that I can't and probably never will.

I've come to realize how important mothers are I think.

I've experienced disgust at my Mother since aged 1. She left when I was 1 and she was extremely depressed when she looked after me as a single parent up to 1 years old.

She came and went after I was 1. She would come every 2 weeks for a few hours. She would give me hugs, cuddles, attention and then go. I don't think I got the chance to bond with her really.

On top of this her coming and going confused me. She claimed to love me deeply, but once every 2 weeks for a few hours? This seems hardly enough.

I moved out of my Dad's when I was 18 and stayed with Mum periodically. I hated being in the same room as her. She would shower me with affection and attention and care and even more, she would try and form a sort of union with me to help her subside her empty feelings about her own life.

She still does it and I alternate between feelings of disgust and 'I-never-wat-to-become-like-you-ever' to feelings of empathy when I see her sat. It puts me in a real stale mate when I go to see her.

I don't think she has a proper capacity to love at all. No parent comes and goes and uses the excuse 'I could not financially give you what you needed' when there was child support available. She wants me to be a carbon copy of herself but I refuse. I don't see her as my Mother. I see her as a person trying to fill the shoes of a Mother who was long gone away.

I have often wondered lately, whether it is best for me to go off on my own for a few years and try and solve myself without the pressures of all these emotions intertwined with her. The things was, I had a heart to heart with her about all this at Xmas and when I said that I periodically feel disgust because you weren't there, she says the same! Periodical disgust at me! For what? Because I reject her? Is it hardly surprising, when she was so aloof?

When I go to see her, I become the light of her life, her world, her evrything. She hugs and kisses me lots and it annoys me. I hate her touching me. I always did.

Anywho, sorry, here's my two cents on my experiences.

My T said 'you miss your Mum' and I was like 'Heck NOOOO, no way, not her'. I guess I have a lot of resentment toward her. Lol.

I guess I have a slightly different experience from what most of you are describing here. I absolutely adore my mother (seriously) and that's been part of my problem.

She's an interesting person-- imaginative, creative, educated, and insightful. She can be sensitive in many ways and is a good conversationalist. She's spent a ton of time with me, reading to me, introducing me to good literature, talking with me, taking me shopping, teaching me how to cook, and etc.
When I lived at home, I was her constant companion and best friend. I enjoyed her company in a lot of ways and still do.

BUT, she's also anxious, insecure, emotionally dependent on her daughter (me), has manipulative tendencies, and has been chronically invalidating of any aspect of me that she doesn't know how to deal with. I hate to say it, but in some ways our relationship has been destructive. It's taken me years, including seven months of therapy, to begin to be able to admit these things without feeling crippling guilt. We're terribly enmeshed and for the longest time I had practically no sense of self apart from my relationship with her. I thought that my purpose in life was to be her emotional support and conform my life to her expectations as best as I could.

So yeah. I need therapy.

((HIC)) Though my experience with Mum has been different historically, where we are at now is almost similar to what you go through. If I allow myself and try to get close to Mum, she'll be similar to your Mum. My Mum is insecure, depressed, lonely, but also highly intelligent and able. Her sense of self become meshed into me and its hard because I want to learn to be independent but also have a relationship with her.

It's good that you are recognizing all this though. Only recently I've told myself that I cannot form this union Mum wnats of me because she wants me to become her, to fulfill her wishes and dreams. And when she feels down, I feel so guilty for not fulfilling her needs, for becoming a union with her to curb her loneliness. I sometimes get awfully sad and guilty to see her like this.

Hope you manage to get through it in good time

It felt like my mother was never there, she worked 2 jobs most of the time, after my dad died when I was 8 months old, and when she was home, she was yelling at me for something or making me vacuum just perfectly, or laying in bed crying. I don't have memories of doing anything with her, either. Oh, I have a memory of reading her a book next to her bed while she laid in bed!! And, now, it is very much like what you say, if I try to talk to her, she changes the subject. I usually don't talk to her anymore about anything important to me, and she doesn't ask how I am. She also still does not initiate hugs, even though I have done it with her and one time even said, "Can I have a hug, I need one." Disturbing, though, I had a memory a few weeks ago at home after journaling about a session with T. I was a child, not sure age, and watching my mom turn the door handle around on my door and locking me in my room. I also have many memories of sitting in my room listening to my mom and sister argue (my sister is one year older than me). I have serious mom issues....I want to run away from therapy because I'm afraid I will remember something I had conveniently abandoned in my mind.

(((INCOGNITO))) I think it's so brave of you to have even expressed how you felt to your mother. That's something I was never able to do. She'd get angry and I guess I wasn't strong enough to face her anger and just let her get over it. It's so interesting that she demanded you call her. I guess I could never imagine being that way with my children. I might miss them but I want them to be happy. I don't know too many people who have had great relationships with their mothers. I think I know 2, actually, one of them being Mayo. Are there more out there?

((((MORGS)))) If you want to keep talking about your relationship with your mother, I'm all ears. It's very hard being a mother. I'm naturally drawn to #1 and #4. I have to push myself to connect with #2 and #3. I don't know if it's just that they were both close in age and I wasn't able to develop the relationships with them that I developed with #1, who was an only child for five years, and #4, who has 6 years between her and #3. Number 2 and number 3 are 19 months apart and I was depressed and overwhelmed when they were little.

That being said, I don't like my mother very much either. There is not much to like. My SIL told me that if she wanted to learn how to do certain things, like throw a nice party or whatever, she might seek out my mother's assistance. The odd thing to me is that she would be happy if we all stayed close to her and had family holidays, etc., even if we were dysfunctional and couldn't function in the real world. To her that would mean that she was a good mother. She used to feel superior as a mother to people whose children moved away. I don't know if she still does. My goal in life is to help my kids become functional. Whether or not they live close to me doesn't bother me as long as they are happy.

((((YAKU)))) You are not a downer. I'm so glad you shared your feelings with us. I am struggling with what you are struggling with and that is: "There are some parts who hate her...incidentally, they hate themselves just as much for not managing to love her like they should."

I have so much guilt because as you wrote, my Mom worked hard. But maybe it was just at all the wrong things. And maybe it was all just to make her look good. I'm pretty sure now that she pushed me away when I was little. I can't even picture her face. To me, she is like the adults in "The Little Rascals" I think? Or was it "Snoopy"? The one when you never actually saw the adults but when they spoke, it was in some blurred voice and you never really knew what they were saying.

I think it's great that you can see at least some good things about your Mom. It's all a part of who she is, right? The good, the bad and the ugly. I know what you mean about the mileage she gets out of your success and how hurtful that is.

I can't be a daughter either, Yaku. It's very hard. But a large part of it is who my Mom is and her limits as a human being. She probably couldn't have a nice relationships with anyone, really. It's not just me.

((((FMN)))) "I don't think she has a proper capacity to love at all." You are probably right. She doesn't. It sounds like it was all about your Mom's needs and not yours. Were there some control/engulfment issues going on? I still see my Mom but have been emotionally cut off from her for probably my whole life. So, I know what to say and how to treat her that will make her happy. But it is far from a genuine relationship. She only wants someone to talk to. She has never been iterested in my world and I'm not interested in sharing it with her anymore.

((((HIC))))) Now I have to add you to my list of people who had/have good relationships with their Moms. Although yours sounds like it might be more mixed. But there's definitely a lot of good stuff in there. It sounds like you and your Mom really connected and have a lot in common. Maybe she never let you go and develop your own sense of self?



Liese

I remember my mom being in the kitchen and cleaning all the time. I don't remember any interactions that were warm and loving. I know she was depressed, suffering from an eating disorder, and struggling with her own issues. BUT, the thing that makes it the most difficult was watching her be so completely different towards my sister. She was that warm, loving mother to her. She told her she was beautiful. I was left to fend for myself--all on my own.

I have feelings of hate, disgust towards her. She did things to me that were so incredibly emotionally damaging. BUT, then I was always told that your mother and father loved you more than anyone. So, I struggle with guilt. I struggle with feeling the anger and pain.

I am working on that, and hoping that I will be able to accept the realities of my parental relationships.

Can you now see why abandonment from Old T would trigger stuff for me? She's cold, emotional distant just like my own mother. It was a damaging relationship.

Brokes

Unbroken, big to you. I'm so sorry that your Mum left you to fend for yourself. This is terribly scary for a child. I can totally understand why you would have been affected by your OldT as well. It must have triggered a lot for you. I hope you are doing okay with it all?

quote:

I have feelings of hate, disgust towards her. She did things to me that were so incredibly emotionally damaging. BUT, then I was always told that your mother and father loved you more than anyone. So, I struggle with guilt. I struggle with feeling the anger and pain.

I am in the midst of this as well. Seeing Mum as Xmas sparked the disgust and the guilt equally.

Big to everyone else as well for struggling with Mum relationships.

A friend on Facebook who has two children once commented on a picture of them; 'I am the luckiest Mom in the world'. To me, this is how a Mother should be. She's very emotionally in touch with them and I look at they're family and choke up a bit because a) this is what parents should be like and b) I wish I had this sort of treatment.

I know it's no good to wish..sometimes I really do start to think what it could have been like. I guess you can't help it sometimes.

My older half sister who was left by Mum also is very affected by my Mum's abandonment. She has extreme relationship issues, jumps from one guy to another, hostile, resentful, an angry woman. And sometimes I think of her (we don't speak as we've never bonded due to the family keeping her secret from me until I was 15) and feel real bad for her because I know what she went through..

quote:

Were there some control/engulfment issues going on? I still see my Mom but have been emotionally cut off from her for probably my whole life

Thanks Liese. Engulfment might be a good description of things. I'm not sure. My Mum has pushed what she thinks I should become onto me a lot. I've needed to remove myself from her influence and I've needed a lot of time to myself to start breathing and finding myself. It's a shame that I need both parents well away from me to solve myself and my own inner emotion. When I used to stay with Mum for a day sometimes or sometimes overnight, I used to feel that her place was so alien to me. It just all felt weird and unusual. It felt lonely and I just could not accept her love. It was also my stepmother and Dad who would, during arguments, say things like 'Your mother doesn't give a s**t about you. Where is she now? If you don't like living here, go to your Mother's' which would put me in a stalemate situation. I used to have major arguments with Mum. Now I avoid a lot of stuff that might spark off an argument.

Come to think of it, I feel I've been surrounded by angry people. And people who doesn't seem to understand why I feel in so much pain and why I struggle with things. My family have a tendency to brush all controversy under the carpet. That doesn't make me feel much better.

I'm glad I have T who gets me. It's such a relief.

T said to me once 'You miss your Mum' and I probably do but it's buried deep, deep down and I'm not sure I will be able to attain this mother/daughter connection that should exist.

((FMN)) Thanks, Love!

I am suffering something terrible today. I am on the verge of tears feeling so abandoned and rejected by Old T. I knew that sending her a message was a bad idea. I knew it, but yet I go ahead and bring on the pain a little bit more.

I finally texted New T. I told her what I did. I had to tell someone how bad I hurt AND I guess she is my therapist now.

Old T and my mom were VERY similar emotionally. It was a tug of war relationship. She'd pull me close to what felt good for her and then she's let go of the rope just to watch me fall. It was never evenly balance. It always felt like I was going to be the one to fall... and I did.

Engulfment makes sense to me. I get that. I know emotional incest played a large role in my foo, too. I can get along with my mother today one on one, but when the family dynamics kick in and my sister is involved, it's chaotic and emotionally draining.

Maybe someday I will attach to my New T and she will be able to help me heal from the past. The most prominent pain is what Old T left behind.

I never expected that when I started therapy.

--Brokes

((((BROKES))))

I am so glad you texted New T. Did she text you back yet?

I have set myself up in similar ways. Try not to beat yourself up too much for doing it. New T will keep you safe.

Love,

Liese

OMG! So, my newT texted back within an hour. I was shocked, surprised, and that COLD COLD heart that was broken and frozen by OLD T actually melted a little--on the mend a little. Not getting too excited, yet. AND not completely over the pain of the realization that Old T isn't going to respond and we are never going to see each other again.

SO, back to more important things... My NEW T!

She said that she's so sorry that I have gone through what I have, and that will never with us...she can guarantee it. (HEART SOARED for sure.)

I told her that knowing she is there helps me make it through this pain. For the first time in months I am getting the support I have always wanted....and needed and it's coming at me from someone who is so willing to give it. Wow! I am kind of in shock at the moment.

I think I needed Old T to do this. To piss me off and that way I could really get angry and move on. Looking back over what we went through....I realize that this is all for the best. I should have left her LONG ago. I was too scared.

((LIESE)) Have I told you lately how wonderful you are, and how supported I felt today and all the days before from you? Thank you!

((((UNBROKEN))))

She is amazing! I love her already too!

(((((HUGS)))))

Liese

Liese and anyone else who saw my post!!! so sorry about ending that way - new laptop - stuffed up and the post went 'somewhere', then found it and most embarrassed!!! Liese, thank you for the implied offer but my response is I don't want to talk about HER it's too difficult to explain and anything I might say just could be too harsh for open consumption!!

xxx, Morgs

Hey Morgs,

Well you could at least finish that last sentence. LOl! You left me hanging. I've been dying all week. What .... was .... she ..... going ...... to ...... say .........

xoxox

Liese....

Sorry about that Liese - stuffed if I recall what the next words were - I was on a roll then, however it would probably have been along the lines of "even at my age I know how my mother or lack of a mother set me up for a lifetime in inner pain"! Nothing earth shattering and very common to so many of us!!
Morgs

((((MORGS))))

It's so hard. I'm really seeing now for the first time ever just how "sick" my mother is. It's like looking at those cards with one image on one side and another image on the other. Before, I only saw the good image of her but felt only hate towards her while at the same time, directed the hate towards myself. Maybe it was unacceptable to me to direct the hate at her? I don't know.

Now I have a more realistic picture of who she is. I had no idea how I've been used as an emotional pawn all these years.

My Mom right now is sheltering my brother but refuses to shelter my sister, who also needs housing right now. My brother has been nothing but a horror but has always been my mother's favorite. He takes care of her emotional needs in a way that my sister can't or won't. My sister is really trying to do the right thing and get on her feet again after several traumatic years. She's made some stupid decisions but they were the decisions of a desperate woman.

The reason she doesn't like my sister: she's not clued into what my mother needs and wants. My mother hides it from her but I hear it all and so does my brother. I'm tired of it all. I'm tired of my mother not being direct about her wants and needs and her hurts.

To have seen, as an adult and a mother myself, my own mother make the choice to shelter one of my siblings (the dysfunctional, destructive one) but not the other has been really eye opening. I know she made decisions like this over and over again when we were growing up. But to see it through the eyes of an adult has really given new meaning and validation to my pain growing up.

I've never had a close relationship with her and have given up on ever having one. It's just something I won't ever have. The cards I drew. But it was because of her limitations and not mine and so it doesn't mean that I can't have close and loving relationships with other people.

Oh, I didn't mean to drone on about it.



Liese

It's a real bitch Liese and I'm sorry you'll never have a healthy relationship with her like you do with your own children!! It must be so hard watching her favour one sibling over the other and be powerless to help - this my mother does also with my two younger sisters, but she'd deny anything that reflected poorly on her!!!

Maybe it was unacceptable to me to direct the hate at her?

One thing I say to people who have 'mother' issues is just because there's a blood connection doesn't mean there's love or like as a result!! We don’t even think about whether they love us or not but only feel the guilt of not loving them and taking responsibility for the problems! Even though I still react appallingly in my guts to her, I have accepted in my head that I'll never like her and have mostly got over the resultant guilt!! If I had to choose a mother in a line-up and interview situation this woman wouldn’t make step 2! I hope that you can let go of her Liese!!

But it was because of her limitations and not mine and so it doesn't mean that I can't have close and loving relationships with other people.

It’s totally excellent that you’re able to make the distinction and have those sustaining relationships you deserve!!

I have to go now - do keep taking care of fyourself Liese! Morgs

I try not to think much about my memories of my mother as I was growing up. The person she is today is almost a completely different person....when I think of the person she used to be and the memories I have of her, I get so angry and it impacts my relationship with her in the present day in a negative way.

Despite all the pain and bad things that happened between my mother and I in my childhood, I have some good memories of times together with her as an adult. I am trying to focus on those. We went to Europe last year and had a really funny experience on a train from Amsterdam to Prague that makes me giggle every time I think of it. I also remember her taking me for a pedicure in August when I was visiting her. I felt so pampered and special. She's really stepped up to the plate and is trying to make up for all the bad memories I have from my childhood. I feel like I need to do my part too and bury some of that.

Hey ya'll,

I need a straight up answer here. Am I overreacting about my mother giving my brother shelter and not my sister? I've never been close to my sister. In fact, we'd been mortal enemies. I was closer to my brother. So, I don't think I'm being biased here in favor of my sister because of how I feel about her. Actually, the opposite. My brother is an alcoholic who has been in treatment programs but always leaves. He showed up on my parents doorstep 5 years ago. He drank and made life absolutely miserable for everyone. After my Dad died 4 years ago, he found one of his credit cards and wracked up $13,000.00 in debt in two months. Then he was sneaking my Mom's car out at night (he'd lost his licence) and going out until he crashed her car. She woke up to find it all banged up in her driveway.

My sister did live there for a short time but my mother couldn't handle it because she left the ice cream out overnight and it melted. And she borrowed some bras from my mother without asking.

I could never really get a handle on why my sister's "crimes" were so much worse than my brother's. On top of it, my sister is a functioning human being trying to put her life back together. She works three jobs, etc. She actually bought a house. Unfortunately, it's twelve hours driving distance from her job and she can't find a job where the house is. And that's why she needs housing now until she sorts that part of her situation out.

But, my brother on the other hand, is NOT looking to become independent. Actually, he's dying of melanoma right now so everything is moot. Were he to survive his melanoma, it would be doubtful that he'd pull himself together and look for a job.

Sorry to go so heavy on the details but just really wondering here if you too would be disgusted that she's choosing to shelter one sibling over another during a difficult time. I found out several months ago that my sister was actually sleeping in her car and so she's been staying in my basement until she gets her life sorted out. I haven't had any problems with her. No melted ice cream. She offers to clean and is generally pleasant.


((((MORGS))))

Yes, that blood connection thing is a hard one for me. My mother has also harped on the importance of family above everything else. You know, in a way, I can see her point. Because it is a cold world out there. But when it's someone within your family doing the damage, it's a different story and she doesn't get that. I see now though that that's HER thing.

I do think family is important but I'm going to show my kids why instead of telling them why. I'm going to treat them with respect. I'm going to have expectations for them and their behavior and hold them to a slighter higher standard than where they are at and help them reach higher. I'm going to show them they I care about them and their wellbeing. I'm going to ask them about their lives and show them that I'm interested. I'm going to let them know they are important to me. I'm going to let them know that each and every one of them is important to me and one isn't more important than the other.

And if I can accomplish half of that, I'd call it a good day! LOL!

(((LG)))

So great that you've come to appreciate your mother now. I can attest to the fact that having children is stressful and life throws things at us sometimes that make it even harder. I can see why now it might be easier for her to be the mother she always wanted to be. I can't even imagine having fun with my mother. There is nothing fun about her. She whines and complains and criticizes. And feels very much entitled to do all that with me. I don't remember ever telling her I'd be happy to listen to her "s**t". But she seems to feel very entitled to dump it on me.

(((Liese))) Straight up answer; no you're not!

quote:

The reason she doesn't like my sister: she's not clued into what my mother needs and wants. My mother hides it from her but I hear it all and so does my brother. I'm tired of it all. I'm tired of my mother not being direct about her wants and needs and her hurts

It sounds like your Mother is desperate to be understood in a way that only she wants to be It kind of sounds like that as long as she vents and has her side of the story agreed with or understood, she may favourite.

I'm not sure how to put it in a clear way. Is your Mum a 'victim' of life i.e. has she simply sunk into her depressions/problems and will only go so far as to complain about them without actively seeking help or wanting to improve on herself?

If so, perhaps, misery likes company in this case? If your Mum and Brother equally have this capacity to complain about life and not do anything about it, they might get on very well. I have realized that we become close to people who have very similar perceiving of how life should be approached. If your sister is trying her best and moving forward the best she can, your Mum might see it as a threat of some sort? A 'She-doesn't-care-about-me' sort of thing. Similarly maybe because your sister is more honest with herself about her own pains and problems and your Mum might be indenial of her own, that there's problems Maybe your Mum sees her own issues through your sister and is disgusted of it, and therefore keeps a distance. When as a matter of fact, she is disgusted by herself, not your sister.

Maybe your Mum 'likes' to writhe in her own contempt or depressions or ways of looking at life and your brother might equally have the same view. Maybe your brother meets your mother's 'needs' in that sense only. (I'm afraid I'm jumping the gun here though, cause I don't know what your Mum's characteristics are so apologies if I am wrong!)

But in any case, your definitely not overreacting or reacting wrongly. I think that a decent parent should be pretty much like a therapist; willing to work with the patient (with they're children) and willing to learn about themselves at the same time.

c

Yes, yes Muff! I wish more parents were like this!