Hi, Ag...yeh, it's good to see your post. I had a feeling you were holding out on us!
First of all let me say that it's amazing that you can talk so coherently and clearly in the middle of so much pain. That in itself speaks volumes for the healing you have done...yes, you are feeling it, you are aware of it, you can figure out why, it hurts like hell, you don't like it one little bit, and I gotta say, you are not shutting it down, at least your post doesn't seem like you are. Wow, it's an awe-ful thing ( I spell wrong on purpose) to go through years of therapy to learn how to "suffer well", and boy, do I commend you for it...and it is paying off, as you have illustrated by your ability to deal with the pain, and let it grow you, and others around you. Yeah, you are bearing a lot of fruit now that you have pruned away so painstakingly the things that wern't working for you...The thing is, how difficult it is to prune away now, well, the therapy, because it actually IS still working for you, and bearing good fruit in your life, being a relationship that is real, and genuine, and caring and helpful for you. This whole issue you are dealing with can get so philosophical that I could think about it for and talk about it for the next century, but really what it comes down to is that you need some tenderness and support and caring right now, and I hope that whatever I can offer you here will help ease the burden a tiny bit at least. I know you too well by now from reading your posts, to think I could say "Aw, AG, just don't leave therapy- you don't HAVE to go." Yeah you already know that. But you have said this is something you have to do for yourself, yes. It is good, that you can take your time with it.

No it is not petty and selfish, to wish for more from one you love so well, and to share that here. If it is, then I also am petty and selfish, and I know you will say no to THAT! The longing you feel and are connecting with is very painful, isn't it, but it is also a very beautiful and tender thing. From such a thing more love grows, and gives to others...as you are doing through your volunteer work, and on the forum, and I'm sure also in many ways we don't get to see. I don't have too much to say... because I feel the need to tread very lightly here around, and not trample on any of the little shoots and sprouts and blossoms that are newly growing all around you...

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."


Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10



((((((((AG))))))))

AG,

Dragonfly and Blackbird said so well what I was thinking. It is definitely not petty or selfish and I'm so glad that you put yourself out there by posting about this. I can see both sides of the pain that you are experiencing and I wish that you could have one side for free, but it seems in this process that we don't get anything for free. I am so happy for you that you have a T that understands all of this so well and is patient, present and constant for you.

Like DF said, I hope that you are able to find that volume control and arrive at a balance that feels right. ((((AG))))

quote:

Move away, I'm scared and it's painful. Move to close, I'm scared and it's painful.

AG,

Hey, I recognize that bind!!

I know this might be irritating to hear, but the fact that you are able to feel these emotions directly - as opposed to, say, feeling anxious or depressed or get chronic back pain or start drinking or a million other defense responses - is a sign of real, actual mental health. My T goes away and I don't miss him, I just feel wretched and head foggy the whole time because a part of me won't let me feel the actual feelings. So your response to what your struggling with is really a good thing, despite being incredibly painful.

quote:

...His saying that stuck with me as I left. When he says that to me, in a way it feels like permission to feel the feelings of longing.

May I ask how long it took you to get to the point where you allowed yourself to feel longing for your T...longing without being ashamed of it? It's something I just can't seem to let myself feel, not just for him but for anyone, really. Why do our minds view longing as such a threatening, shameful thing? I guess because it requires that we expose ourselves to being hurt.

quote:

And I had to work so hard, and go through so much pain to move closer that it doesn't seem fair that it should be so much work to move away.

Man, that's brutal, and so true. No wonder we resist opening up...what's in it for us if it's gonna be this one-sided thing that can never grow beyond a certain point anyway? I can see how this would be a perfectly appropriate thing for you to grieve, AG.

Hang in there!
Russ

AG, I love that you have this down to such a finely tuned art that you can get the reassurance in 44 seconds!!

So much stuff comes up for me as I read this. I can scarcely imagine being able to hold that relationship and the sense of it still being there and real without the frequent contact. It triggers a lot of stuff for me - layers of losses of different people, the dreaded 'moving away' after a period of being intensely close to someone. I've experienced a lot of this, and far too much in the last couple of years. And so when I read this post I sort of wade through those layers to try to imagine this experience. One of the things I confront in imagining it right now is that sense of bewilderment that the relationship is not going to just transform into some other kind of friendship in the rest of your life. I just can't believe it! And so I don't know how you can! YES, it must hurt, a hell of a lot.

But what I can see is an incredible art to the way the two of you are handling this. It reminds me a lot of the child gradually moving away from the parent, testing and returning, directing it herself at the pace she chooses. I wonder if you are conscious of feeling and discovering the richness of that relationship in other places in your life now? Is part of being-ok-without-him that you are now gradually getting these kinds of nourishment in other places? Or is it that you have internalised a lot of that nourishment?

I feel like you are exploring new continents as you do this AG - it feels both frightening and breathtaking to watch. I'm sending you a hug for the pain, and my deep hope that you find that place of balance and rest soon.

Thank you all so much, I was so touched, and often moved to tears, by everyone's responses. And thank you all so much for your generous reassurance that my feelings weren't selfish or petty.

BB,
Sorry for holding out and thank you for urging me not too. I have NO words to express how much your reply meant to me. I do not deserve to be described with the Sermon on the Mount, but to even think that someone would do that is an amazing blessing and stunned me. If you are seeing that in me, it is because God is so gracious as to use clay vessels to pour himself through, another thing I don't deserve but am very grateful for. To quote CT's favorite Relient K lyric: "The best thing about Grace is that it makes life unfair." Thank you so very much. (((BB)))

DF,
Thank you for being pleased for me, it's incredibly generous and big-hearted of you. And you hit the nail on the head when you talked about my T making it clear he would always be there. He has worked really hard to make that abundantly clear (and on this subject I have a very thick skull ) and that is the ONLY reason I have started to take even this small step towards moving away. My growing sense of security and understanding that nothing can destroy our relationship is providing the strength I need to move.

STRM,
Thank you and I have to agree we don't get anything for free. I try to remember to be grateful that I can get there at all. It may take a lot of hard work and pain, but at least it's possible, there's hope. Thank you for responding, especially knowing how you're struggling right now. You're quite amazing you know!

Russ,
Thank you so much for pointing out the signs of progress in my being able to feel this (which is even more generous of you knowing how you've been struggling with the fog). It's hard sometimes not to feel like I'm being some kind of pathetic moron to be struggling so hard about this and you gave me a sense of accomplishment instead! And that in turn gives me hope.

How long to feel longing and not be ashamed of it? This was a tough one to get through. I think it took almost a year and a half of working with my T before I could let myself feel it and it led to a major breakthrough. I can still struggle with the shame but it's much better than it used to be. I had started talking to my T about the feelings of longing but pretty much in "what the hell's wrong with me, I know I can't have this, why can't I let it go." and "how pathetic am I to long for someone who never in a million years could ever want me if I wasn't paying for the relationship?" I don't know if I've ever mentioned this but my T is the king of haunting questions. Sometimes he'll ask something in a session that will hound me for days. At one point when we were discussing this he asked me "How would it be to just let yourself feel the longings?" OK, to be completely honest, the response in my head was this "what the f---, do you want me to be in horrible pain? what the hell's wrong with you?" But the question followed me and as I wrestled with it, I finally heard it in a different way. That instead of working so hard to judge myself so harshly for even having the feelings, what if I just let myself feel it and see what it meant? So I worked really hard to shut down that condemning voice (actually using some mindfulness techniques, hi FOT!!) and just let it come. Which led to a moment of ephiphany. Moving close enough to someone evoked these longings in me. But with them came an enormous amount of grief because they had been so thwarted when I was young. So I had to stay far enough away in all my relationships so that the longings wouldn't stir and I wouldn't feel that horrible grief. But I had been searching for that perfect distance which allowed me to get my needs met but didn't evoke the longings and this finally made me realize that there was no such place. So I had to face the grief so that I could move closer and get my needs met. It was another major step in understanding my terror of moving closer to anyone. Being able to feel the longings, allowed me to talk about them, which in turn helped me to understand that those longings, far from being shameful, were healthy longings for things that all human beings need. And that reduced the shame. I would be remiss however, in adding that a my Ts complete acceptance and understanding of my feelings went a long way towards my being able to let go of a lot of the shame. I don't know how he does it but he doesn't shy away from my feelings at all and that more than anything, lets me know they're ok to have on a "gut" right-brain kind of level. Hope that helped.

quote:

One of the things I confront in imagining it right now is that sense of bewilderment that the relationship is not going to just transform into some other kind of friendship in the rest of your life. I just can't believe it! And so I don't know how you can! Red Face YES, it must hurt, a hell of a lot.

Hi Jones,
Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I have struggled really hard over a very long time to accept that there really will never be anything else. There was a huge wall of denial around that which I've had to slowly chip through and I'm not sure I'm completely there. I have times where I can accept it and be grateful for what I have (and actually my T has told me of course I'm accepting it or I wouldn't be in such pain over it.) But there are other times where that truth can pierce like a sword. I am grateful that my T seems to have endless patience about me discussing that pain which is allowing me to work my way through it. I'm sorry this is triggering stuff for you, I know it's a really difficult subject.

quote:

I wonder if you are conscious of feeling and discovering the richness of that relationship in other places in your life now? Is part of being-ok-without-him that you are now gradually getting these kinds of nourishment in other places? Or is it that you have internalised a lot of that nourishment?

Thanks for asking this question, it was really good for me to think about. The answer is both. I am definitely seeing myself extending the behaviors I learned from my T to other people, especially in the area of making my needs known, and knowing I can do that allows me to get my needs met through other people AND feel safe because I know I now know how to get my needs met. (I hope that sentence made sense. ) Both there's no doubt that a strong component is the internalization. My T and I have discussed many times how our sense of worth and competence never come from within, it's always learned from without, from having someone believe in us and teach us until we can understand and accept our own worth. Our worth doesn't come from them, but our knowledge of it does. (Wow, I've NEVER been able to articulate that before, thank you!) I have a steady place inside me now where I can rest and a large part of the resting place is knowing that my T is THERE, that he believes in me, and I have somewhere to go if I need to. Knowing I can go there, helps me not to need to.

I hope the frightening and breathtaking part of watching me is more like a rollercoaster than a horror movie, Jones. Thanks again for your support and your insightful questions.

FOT,
I did finish reading the book but it was quite activating and I have been meaning to go back through it. I do think I found it helpful on for several reasons. The first being that it made me think of perspectives on leaving and how it was affecting me that I hadn't thought about, so how I was feeling made more sense. And just the fact that they were describing patients whose feelings were so similar to mine helped to normalize my reactions (which are actually typical for a trauma patient). Last but not least, although this could be painful too, the Ts who wrote the essays were very open about how deeply terminations affected them and what it meant to say goodbye to their patients and this gave me a sense that my T might be feeling our separation as well. Which helps me to believe in the reality of our relationship which in turn helps me to believe it will survive our separation in space and time.

Along those lines, I have found volunteering on the phone line to be really helpful also because I'm on the other side of the equation, so to speak. I understand that my care for those people, despite not knowing them and having short contact, is real and that although I don't allow them to see it, I am having very real reactions and am often moved by what they're going through. If I'm feeling that for someone I'm on the phone for 10 minutes with, how much more does my T feel after working with me for over three years. I talked to him about it at my last appt and he was very affirming. (Frankly, I think he's finally relieved I'm getting it, poor man. )

I haven't read that book, but my T and I have extensively discussed mindfulness and what David Wallin calls psychic space. The idea of stepping back from your emotions, letting them come without judgement and using them to understand yourself which increases self-compassion. It has been an interwoven thread throughout our work.

I'm really glad you've found this and I am so impressed how you continue to pursue healing through whatever means you can get your hands on. You're an inspiration!!

Thank you all again, you've all helped so much.

AG

this is all such beautiful stuff written, so i can just weep with the beauty of it all. to me, it seems you are in that grey area that IS life, the area between the black of clinging like a vine to T for dear life, and the white, of thinking, as i often do, that i don't need therapy, this is a luxury that if i would just 'pull it together', i wouldn't need...that gray area of being in a place of balance between the need and the denial. idk, but two things come to mind. one, a book i have already mentioned in the forum on 'necessary losses' (voirst) that talks about how life changes and people grow (your daughter off to college) and the bittersweetness of life not staying the same, in any regard. while you know you are healing and not NEEDING him as much, the sweet memories and the depth of the relationship are so strong. unbelievably strong, i think we all know. but you have the insight and maturity to recognize it for what it is, but validate the bittersweetness of it all. sounds like MATURITY to me, girl!!!!

and two, one thing that helped me wean off of T1, was NOT setting that next appt...just calling and scheduling a time to come back when i wanted. that 'being on the books' always kept me kind of looped in to counting the days in between, where not being on the appt. book but knowing it was still open and i could always come back, for whatever reason, let that time in between be more in my control. a safety valve if i needed it, but not eyeballing a monthlong or two week long stretch from the long end of the ballpark. y'no? just a thought, it may help 'get through' the next couple of months more in your control rather than a set pattern of departure.

sounds like you have a great T, so i can see that ending is hard, but knowing he is there if you need him, even in an irregular pattern, idk, may put it more in your hands than the calendar's.

your quote: "Moving close enough to someone evoked these longings in me. But with them came an enormous amount of grief because they had been so thwarted when I was young. So I had to stay far enough away in all my relationships so that the longings wouldn't stir and I wouldn't feel that horrible grief. But I had been searching for that perfect distance which allowed me to get my needs met but didn't evoke the longings and this finally made me realize that there was no such place. So I had to face the grief so that I could move closer and get my needs met. It was another major step in understanding my terror of moving closer to anyone. Being able to feel the longings, allowed me to talk about them, which in turn helped me to understand that those longings, far from being shameful, were healthy longings for things that all human beings need. And that reduced the shame. I would be remiss however, in adding that a my Ts complete acceptance and understanding of my feelings went a long way towards my being able to let go of a lot of the shame."" ..i dont know how to do the quote thing, but, this is so beautifully written, ag, yes, accepting that, despite what we grew up to believe, that these longings, at least at my house were WEAKNESS, something to be ashamed of, denied, etc. ... but were NORMAL, and HEALTHY and ACCURATE FEELINGS that are our BIRTHRIGHT in being created HUMAN!! scary, to someone with a dysfunctional childhood, but the only way to truly live. i think your quote put something together for me that had been stirring for quite some time...thanks for your insight.

glad to see you express this all. poignant. makes me really see the art and beauty of this work from a t's point of view. surprised more aren't terribly ego-centric.

all the best, jill

quote:

Moving close enough to someone evoked these longings in me. But with them came an enormous amount of grief because they had been so thwarted when I was young. So I had to stay far enough away in all my relationships so that the longings wouldn't stir and I wouldn't feel that horrible grief. But I had been searching for that perfect distance which allowed me to get my needs met but didn't evoke the longings and this finally made me realize that there was no such place. So I had to face the grief so that I could move closer and get my needs met. It was another major step in understanding my terror of moving closer to anyone. Being able to feel the longings, allowed me to talk about them, which in turn helped me to understand that those longings, far from being shameful, were healthy longings for things that all human beings need. And that reduced the shame. I would be remiss however, in adding that a my Ts complete acceptance and understanding of my feelings went a long way towards my being able to let go of a lot of the shame. I don't know how he does it but he doesn't shy away from my feelings at all and that more than anything, lets me know they're ok to have on a "gut" right-brain kind of level. Hope that helped.

Whoa. Yeah, that helps...it helps because I think I see myself in there, especially this:

quote:

But I had been searching for that perfect distance which allowed me to get my needs met but didn't evoke the longings and this finally made me realize that there was no such place . So I had to face the grief so that I could move closer and get my needs met. It was another major step in understanding my terror of moving closer to anyone .

This is where I'm at right now, AG. Right now, I'm attacking my T in a million different ways. I hate him for not "fixing" me, I hate him for expecting me to open up, I hate him for asking me to think about things I don't want to think about, etc, etc. In his words, "the fight is on" and it's a "campaign" against him to ensure that I keep myself closed and keep him out. When I come in and say, "I'm in too much pain to think about what you asked me to think about. It doesn't feel like it has anything to do with my experience, I wish you would say things that make sense, etc, etc," it's all a way to basically destroy him and ensure that I don't feel anything that will lead to feelings of longing, affection, gratitude, grief, shame and...I can barely say it...love.

And yet, I know that if I'm ever gonna get anywhere, this situation needs to change. Somehow. I apologise for the grotesque metaphor, but it's starting to feel like I have an emotional abscess that needs to be lanced, cleansed and healed.

Thanks for this look into your process. It's stunning how much so many of us here have in common with defences.

Russ

Jill
I found it really interesting that you would talk about not making another appt but planning on calling it because that's exactly how my T handles it. You don't leave or stop being his client, you just don't know when you're next appt is. I kept wanting to set an end date because I knew leaving would hurt and I just wanted to get it over with. He finally clearly called me on that, and said if I insisted he would set an end date but he really thought it would be better to let it happen naturally. I realized that I have always allowed my relationships to find their natural levels. And therapy, while being unique, is still a relationship between two people so why should I treat it differently. So while my T has made it clear that he sees me as ready to move away, he's also made it abundantly clear that I can take all the time I need. So stretching out my appts to two weeks is as far away as I feel like I can go right now. But I'm amazed at the experience. Because although there is pain and fear being kicked up, it is also giving me a chance to experience what I've gained. So thank you for the advice, I'm definitely planning on taking it up at a later date.

What I'm experiencing now segues very nicely into something UV said. UV I totally agree with the point you made about these feelings never going away. My T and I spent a whole session discussing that. In some ways, it was a relief to stop trying to get over it because it was a point I could never reach. But he talked about learning how to recognize and deal with the feelings much more quickly. He once said now its weeks, then it will be days, then hours, and minutes and someday even seconds. I kind of remember thinking he was nuts at the time. But its true now, I do recognize the triggered feelings faster and deal with them faster (although I'm still working with days and hours for most things). This slow moving away is giving me a chance to implement this. None of the issues I'm running into are things we haven't explored before and learned to understand. But this is giving me a chance, while secure, to practice identifying the feelings from my past and overcoming their influence. That's why when my T told me he saw me handling it differently, it made me so happy.

Russ,
Don't apologize for the metaphor, I've used it to describe therapy so many times. The truth is that these unprocessed feelings and memories are like festering sores, which is why we have to open them up despite all the mess and pain that involves in order for them to heal properly.

Monte,
Thank you for the very kind words. And I hear what you're saying about the inevitable separation being unthinkable. In some ways, that's always been the issue from day one and I've struggled with it the whole time. I just want to encourage you that as impossible as it looks, I think I'm seeing another side, that there is a way through. But I spent an awful lot of time scared and sad about it. I'm sorry this can be so difficult to read.

Can I say thanks again to you all for helping me through that? I am feeling much better and actually at church this morning realized that I am feeling such an expansion of being for lack of better words. I am so very grateful for the healing I have been able to do and the difference that its made in my life. And you are all a big part of that.

AG