I wanted to share my experience with "attachment and love", and what i have learnt through this experience. I started therapy because of the loss of a very special being in my life, he had been through everything with me, the loss of our home, the move to a new country and the loss of my mother. During all of those daunting experiences, he was a constant in my life, always with me. His death has been utterly devastating and the grief catapulted me into other areas of my life that i could no longer avoid. I bacame very dependant, attached and fell completely in love wth my therapist. Feelings i was not expecting to experience with such ferocity. Feelings i ws uncomfortable with and fought against for along time. The first time i told her that i loved her had been a particularly bad day, very emotional, i had no feelings of embarrassment, shame or worrying about rejection, i simply needed on that particular day, to tell my therapist that i loved her. I texted "I love you". I was seeing her a few days later, by which time the threads of embarrassment and worry about rejection had started to weave their way through me. Whilst driving to her office, i was wondering what would be less painful...poking my eyes with pins or having to face the consequences of my text. My therapist was absolutely fine with what i had said. She was caring, mindful and completely at ease with my feelings. Even though i was able to say those words and she was okay with it, i still struggled with them. My feelings were a mixture of seeing her as a mother figure/friend. I found those feelings so inhibiting in the things i wanted and needed to talk about re my past etc. I did everything to test her, to push her away, anything where i could convice myself that "trust" did not exist and hoping that she would do something so awful to me, that i would be easy to walk away from her, to walk away from the feelings i had for her and by achieving that, hopefull put all the horrible things in my life, back into that safe place where i did not have to deal with them. I pushed all boundaries. I weered from anger at her, frustration, self pity to feeling like a 6 year old child desperate for acceptance, guilt at my (above) behavior, a rainbow spectrum of feelings and emotions towards her. The relationship has been a roller coaster to say the least. Her response to me at all times has been acceptance to telling me that i would always be welcome in her office. The next time i had an emotional bout with her, a few weeks after the text, i told her that i found it so hard to have all these feelings for her and knowing very little about her. It really is difficult to be fond of someone and knowing nothing about them. I hated it. I hated the boundaries and behaved like a very NORMAL client battling through attachment and love. During this session, she asked me how a friendship with her would benefit me? A really good question and one that deserved exploring. Exactly! What would i gain in having a friendship with her? What i NEEDED was therapy not friendship. She had said to me, that in her office, i had safety, security and a really good chance of sorting through all the emotions. it was a place i could trust, non judgmental and feel free to say anything i needed and be completely myself... something i would not completely get from a friendship. A break through, but still not completely at ease with my feelings for her. I still fought. The real break through for me, in another session, in tears telling her how much i loved her, how it hurt, how i hated it, how i wanted to be able to walk away from it. A very open, honest account of how i was feeling and trying to deal with it all. We spoke a great deal about it all in that session, but the most meaningful for me and the one that switched a light on for me was her asking me, "is it not possible for you to just accept the feelings you have, to stop fighting it". I thought about it all the next week, realised i could just ACCEPT the way i felt about her. I realised it was all apart of ME and it was also how my therapy was just evolving around me. I told her once that i just wanted her to fold me up, put me in her pocket and let me stay with her until all this pain disappeared. By ACCEPTING my feelings, all the daunting, confusing and painful feelings of wanting her to just be with me always has been completely diluted. It is no longer that painful, that daunting or confusing. Yes, i'm sure that through this hazy journey of therapy there will still be times i feel that vulnerability again, but i am also sure that i hopefully have passed the worst of it and can carry on through to a place where i will feel my own strength and my own sense of well being, independent and accepting that most of us are vulnerable, in need and SPECAIL in own unique ways. YES, for me is was okay to tell my therapist. To take a leap of faith and to realize that it is so very NORMAL to feel attached, to feel love, because at the end of the journey what really matter is that you are able to get what you need and walk away stronger, independent and okay with ourselves.
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Hi there, Have courage,
I like your name and it is very appropriate because you have a lot of courage to have those conversations with your T. She sounds really nice. And your story, though painful for you, was really heartwarming and beautiful. My experience has been the same as yours, that once I accepted my feelings for my T, they weren't nearly as painful. They just were. And what is so wrong about loving someone anyway? It sounds like a good thing to me!
Liese
I like your name and it is very appropriate because you have a lot of courage to have those conversations with your T. She sounds really nice. And your story, though painful for you, was really heartwarming and beautiful. My experience has been the same as yours, that once I accepted my feelings for my T, they weren't nearly as painful. They just were. And what is so wrong about loving someone anyway? It sounds like a good thing to me!
Liese
Wow, Have Courage, I really appreciate you sharing this story. It has made quite an impression on me today and I feel that it will stick with me and be helpful to me in the future.
I so agree about your name being appropriate. I am admiring your courage.
Thank you.
Quell
I so agree about your name being appropriate. I am admiring your courage.
Thank you.
Quell
Thank you SO much for writing your story, it is really helpful for me. The questions that your T asked you at various times were really pivotal. I will try and keep them in my mind when I get challenged as I think they are crucial for when we get stuck with our attachments.
Have Courage!
Brilliant - accepting the feelings/emotions instead of fighting them is the key to healing - I'm so pleased you've had such a wonderful 'light bulb' type insight with the help of a very clearly good and caring T!!! So often it's the 'struggle' we go/put ourselves through that depletes us and if we can find that place and say "stuff it, I'm not fighting any more" a huge weight lifts! Yes it comes back but we keep practising
Lovely to meet you and thank you so much for sharing!
Morgs
Brilliant - accepting the feelings/emotions instead of fighting them is the key to healing - I'm so pleased you've had such a wonderful 'light bulb' type insight with the help of a very clearly good and caring T!!! So often it's the 'struggle' we go/put ourselves through that depletes us and if we can find that place and say "stuff it, I'm not fighting any more" a huge weight lifts! Yes it comes back but we keep practising
Lovely to meet you and thank you so much for sharing!
Morgs
Hello Have Courage
Thank you for sharing your experience with us; it is written beautifully, and has really touched me. My experience is so similar to yours, including the loss of someone I deeply loved prior to therapy, and have been going through a lot of attachment pain in therapy recently.
Thanks again for sharing your story, and for your valued insight.
Blu
Thank you for sharing your experience with us; it is written beautifully, and has really touched me. My experience is so similar to yours, including the loss of someone I deeply loved prior to therapy, and have been going through a lot of attachment pain in therapy recently.
Thanks again for sharing your story, and for your valued insight.
Blu
Hi Liese.
Thanks so much for your lovely message. I am glad you have had the same experience with your therapist. Quite a journey hey? I love your quote about the 2 dog's! Over the last few weeks i have definately been throwing a few more scraps to the good dog! Have Courage.
Thanks so much for your lovely message. I am glad you have had the same experience with your therapist. Quite a journey hey? I love your quote about the 2 dog's! Over the last few weeks i have definately been throwing a few more scraps to the good dog! Have Courage.
quote:Originally posted by Quell:
Quell
Hi Quell.
Thanks for your lovely message. I am glad that my story made an impression on you and that it will stick with you. That is such an encouraging thing to hear and makes me glad that i wrote my story. thanks. Have Courage.
Hi SomeDays. Thanks for your message and glad that it was of help to you. Yes, my therapist is very good at saying and asking certain things at the exact time you need to hear them. Very wise at dealing with really difficult situations. Have Courage
HC,
I'm blown away by what you wrote. It's making me cry. It's just so beautiful to see others' experiences and here I am fighting my T--acting out against her because I love her so much and that scares me.
Your name lives up to the message you got across in your post.... and has allowed me to look at things a little differently and have courage.
Love, Brokes
I'm blown away by what you wrote. It's making me cry. It's just so beautiful to see others' experiences and here I am fighting my T--acting out against her because I love her so much and that scares me.
Your name lives up to the message you got across in your post.... and has allowed me to look at things a little differently and have courage.
Love, Brokes
quote:Originally posted by Hollywood:
HC,
I'm blown away by what you wrote. It's making me cry. It's just so beautiful to see others' experiences and here I am fighting my T--acting out against her because I love her so much and that scares me.
Your name lives up to the message you got across in your post.... and has allowed me to look at things a little differently and have courage.
Love, Brokes
Hi Brokes. I am so glad you read my story. Although did not want to make you cry. When i was first nosing through this site, one of the first stories i read was yours in "Attachment- Love and Heartache" and i was so touched by your story. YOU prompted me to write my experience and i was hoping you would get around to reading it and that it would help you a bit. I SOOOO know the anquish and the fighting and acting out!! YOU were an inspiration to me. You have more courage than you believe you have. Love HC
quote:Originally posted by Blu:
Hello Have Courage
Thank you for sharing your experience with us; it is written beautifully, and has really touched me. My experience is so similar to yours, including the loss of someone I deeply loved prior to therapy, and have been going through a lot of attachment pain in therapy recently.
Thanks again for sharing your story, and for your valued insight.
Blu
Hi Blu. Thanks for your lovely message to me. I am so sorry that you have lost someone you loved deeply. I know the agony of grief and my heart goes out to you. Hope you get through the attachment pain in therapy, it really is WORTH working through, as painful as it is. HC
HaveCourage,
Love your name. I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. So much of what you went through and felt was very familiar to me, especially the struggles around coming to terms with wanting the person, but NEEDING the therapist. There was so much truth about healing in what you wrote, thank you for taking the time to speak of it here. It was very affirming for me. I hope you will continue to post about your story and what you have learned, I think it could be a great help to others here.
AG
Love your name. I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. So much of what you went through and felt was very familiar to me, especially the struggles around coming to terms with wanting the person, but NEEDING the therapist. There was so much truth about healing in what you wrote, thank you for taking the time to speak of it here. It was very affirming for me. I hope you will continue to post about your story and what you have learned, I think it could be a great help to others here.
AG
HaveCourage
Thank you so much for sharing this, I am still at the struggling with accepting the attachment bit of the working relationship with t in a big way.
Reading your post has given me a little insight into some of my feelings around this. I just hope that some day I might be ready to take your name and have courage to talk to t about this.
Big thanks
JMB
Thank you so much for sharing this, I am still at the struggling with accepting the attachment bit of the working relationship with t in a big way.
Reading your post has given me a little insight into some of my feelings around this. I just hope that some day I might be ready to take your name and have courage to talk to t about this.
Big thanks
JMB
(((HC)))
WOW! What you wrote to me was incredibly kind. I am so glad that my story could help you. I am struggling today and really needed to hear that. I appreciate it, and I really look forward to talking with you more.
Love, (Brokes) Holly
WOW! What you wrote to me was incredibly kind. I am so glad that my story could help you. I am struggling today and really needed to hear that. I appreciate it, and I really look forward to talking with you more.
Love, (Brokes) Holly
Your post has meant a lot to me. I keep coming back to read it over and over. Thank you for sharing it!
quote:Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
HaveCourage,
Love your name. I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. So much of what you went through and felt was very familiar to me, especially the struggles around coming to terms with wanting the person, but NEEDING the therapist. There was so much truth about healing in what you wrote, thank you for taking the time to speak of it here. It was very affirming for me. I hope you will continue to post about your story and what you have learned, I think it could be a great help to others here.
AG
Hi AG. Thanks for your message. I'm glad it was affirming for you. I will definately keep writing as positive things arise out of my therapy.
quote:Originally posted by Ninn:
Your post has meant a lot to me. I keep coming back to read it over and over. Thank you for sharing it!
Hi Ninn. Thanks for the message and so pleased it meant alot to you. I love your Ben Button quote!
quote:Originally posted by Morgs:
Have Courage!
Brilliant - accepting the feelings/emotions instead of fighting them is the key to healing - I'm so pleased you've had such a wonderful 'light bulb' type insight with the help of a very clearly good and caring T!!! So often it's the 'struggle' we go/put ourselves through that depletes us and if we can find that place and say "stuff it, I'm not fighting any more" a huge weight lifts! Yes it comes back but we keep practising
Lovely to meet you and thank you so much for sharing!
Morgs
Hi Morgs. Thanks for your message. Everything you say is so right. Looking forward to getting to know everyone on this site. It Has given me alot of inspiration. HC
quote:Originally posted by JustMayBe:
HaveCourage
Thank you so much for sharing this, I am still at the struggling with accepting the attachment bit of the working relationship with t in a big way.
Reading your post has given me a little insight into some of my feelings around this. I just hope that some day I might be ready to take your name and have courage to talk to t about this.
Big thanks
JMB
Hi JMB. Thanks for your message. I'm sorry that you are struggling with the acceptance of attachment with your t. i REALLY hope you do get to talk to your t about it, but i do know and understand how difficult it is. I don't know if this might help you a little bit more, but the majority of t's completely understand attachment, they understand how difficult it is for clients (it is all apart of their training), and they also know that by talking about it is all part of your healing process. But it is such an individual thing and when you're ready it will happen. Take care HC
Monte,
Not everyone does think the once a therapist always a therapist outlook is correct, so you’re not alone. Unfortunately for me, my therapist is one of those people. But on the upside, he doesn’t subscribe to the “once you leave, you can’t come back.” He stays your therapist. I have really appreciated his open door policy, especially because he still allows me to call or email whenever I need to. Because of the way our relationship has continued I have seen the wisdom, in my case, of his keeping those boundaries in place.
But I think what was REALLY important for me (and I do want to emphasize for me, this might not be true for everyone, or even anyone, else) about his holding those boundaries, is that I needed therapy to “end” and see them stay in place, because I was still cherishing the hope that I could get the impossible from him. That we could have a relationship without those boundaries. In which he could care for me in a way which would make the pain and loss of my childhood disappear. I honestly thought that I had dealt with that before I left, but it wasn’t until I left and saw that therapy was really it, that I was able to finally let go of that hope. And I am glad that I did, because to continue to hope and look for the impossible was a subtle trap, that kept me from living a full life.
But with all that said, I do recognize and agree with the importance of having a sense of them as a person. My T is my T, but it IS the person that he is that I know. We have a very real relationship, unique between the two people we are. This is one of the most meaningful, deep, real relationships I’ve ever had and one in which I have been able to be more myself, in fact to discover who I am. So the fact that it is bounded, does not change the fact that it is a real relationship between two people, and is unique because of that. A relationship with another therapist would be different because different people would be involved.
What you said about training yourself to walk away really resonated with me because I spent so much of therapy thinking that’s what I had to do. It took a long time, but my T was finally able to explain that the point of the bond wasn’t that as soon as you were secure in it, you would leave it. The point of the bond was that you had a secure background, a base from which to do what you needed to do. The whole point was to form a bond I would always keep, would always have with me. I will never leave the relationship, just how much I see or talk to him may change. He is a very real and very important part of my life and always will be. I will always be a real and important part of his life, albeit, not as important or central to he is, but a part of who he is nonetheless. So I just wanted to clarify that even though I had to learn to live with those boundaries staying in place, it didn’t mean that I ever had to lose the relationship.
The relationship is also changing. I’d tell you how but I’m in the middle of figuring that out. I saw him on Monday and its feeling different. Less intense, less obsessional and more equal. Instead of getting from him what I need, I am having him help me understand myself, so I can figure out how to meet my needs. And sometimes he’s the solution but sometimes it’s other people. It’s a weird shift and one I don’t completely understand yet, probably because I’m in the middle of it.
I say all this, btw, just to clarify what I meant. I think it’s wonderful for you that your T has another attitude and sees the relationship growing beyond what it is now and becoming something else in the future. Honestly, I feel a little envious.
AG
Not everyone does think the once a therapist always a therapist outlook is correct, so you’re not alone. Unfortunately for me, my therapist is one of those people. But on the upside, he doesn’t subscribe to the “once you leave, you can’t come back.” He stays your therapist. I have really appreciated his open door policy, especially because he still allows me to call or email whenever I need to. Because of the way our relationship has continued I have seen the wisdom, in my case, of his keeping those boundaries in place.
But I think what was REALLY important for me (and I do want to emphasize for me, this might not be true for everyone, or even anyone, else) about his holding those boundaries, is that I needed therapy to “end” and see them stay in place, because I was still cherishing the hope that I could get the impossible from him. That we could have a relationship without those boundaries. In which he could care for me in a way which would make the pain and loss of my childhood disappear. I honestly thought that I had dealt with that before I left, but it wasn’t until I left and saw that therapy was really it, that I was able to finally let go of that hope. And I am glad that I did, because to continue to hope and look for the impossible was a subtle trap, that kept me from living a full life.
But with all that said, I do recognize and agree with the importance of having a sense of them as a person. My T is my T, but it IS the person that he is that I know. We have a very real relationship, unique between the two people we are. This is one of the most meaningful, deep, real relationships I’ve ever had and one in which I have been able to be more myself, in fact to discover who I am. So the fact that it is bounded, does not change the fact that it is a real relationship between two people, and is unique because of that. A relationship with another therapist would be different because different people would be involved.
What you said about training yourself to walk away really resonated with me because I spent so much of therapy thinking that’s what I had to do. It took a long time, but my T was finally able to explain that the point of the bond wasn’t that as soon as you were secure in it, you would leave it. The point of the bond was that you had a secure background, a base from which to do what you needed to do. The whole point was to form a bond I would always keep, would always have with me. I will never leave the relationship, just how much I see or talk to him may change. He is a very real and very important part of my life and always will be. I will always be a real and important part of his life, albeit, not as important or central to he is, but a part of who he is nonetheless. So I just wanted to clarify that even though I had to learn to live with those boundaries staying in place, it didn’t mean that I ever had to lose the relationship.
The relationship is also changing. I’d tell you how but I’m in the middle of figuring that out. I saw him on Monday and its feeling different. Less intense, less obsessional and more equal. Instead of getting from him what I need, I am having him help me understand myself, so I can figure out how to meet my needs. And sometimes he’s the solution but sometimes it’s other people. It’s a weird shift and one I don’t completely understand yet, probably because I’m in the middle of it.
I say all this, btw, just to clarify what I meant. I think it’s wonderful for you that your T has another attitude and sees the relationship growing beyond what it is now and becoming something else in the future. Honestly, I feel a little envious.
AG
quote:What I think I was essentially responding to was where she wrote, "I needed therapy, not friendship".
I guess I'm responding with: "I need love more than I need wisdom...skills...objectivity...therapeutic brilliance." Love is the great healer, in a way that clever therapy cannot be. I feel loved by my T in a real and personal way and that impacts me more than his skills as a therapist. The two working together are a powerful combination.
Monte, I agree tht this kind of love is a great healer and you make some excellent points. But also, this is a type of love that you will usually only find in the therapeutic relationship because it's all about you and your needs. Your T does not expect you to satisfy his needs and wants as would a "normal" partner in a love relationship. In that case, the love and attention gets divided between you and both of your needs enter into the picture.
AG you make some good points as well, especially in the need to maintain the therapeutic relationship as such so that you could/can go back to your T for further therapy down the line when life circumstances warrant it. It would be near impossible to do that if you had a normal friendship with T.
As for me, what I need most and what I am attempting to get from my T is the nurturing love that I did not get as a child. Aside from our T's this kind of focus, love and nurture would have come from a parent. We missed that opportunity to be the focus and center of someone's (our parents) world and so now we can experience it in therapy. For that time when we are with our T's we are the center of their world and it feels really good. My T does offer the protection, understanding and attention that I never had and I experience his nurturing as the love I have always yearned for. While it's not a perfect do-over of childhood it's close and my hope it that his love can help fill that empty place I have wrestled with for so many years.
Have Courage... thank you for your beautiful post. I hope one day to find the strength and courage to tell my T that I love him. Because I do.
Hugs to all
TN
Monte,
First I want to say that I didn't feel any criticism in what you said or a disparaging of my T. I actually thought you brought up an interesting perspective and were identifying what it is that is helping you heal. I think you are doing incredible work with your T so there is a great deal of value in you analyzing WHY its working for you. I thought it was an interesting conversation so I was offering my experience. I don't think there's really a right and wrong here, if that makes sense. I think there's what's effective or not effective for any given dyad. And honestly, it's just nice being able to talk about my T.
Monte, I totally agree, both with the red-flag response and with the possibility that it could turn out to be a very good thing. My feel for the red-flag response is based on my own weaknesses. If my T had held out the hope of something after therapy, I would have worked too hard to behave in therapy, if that makes sense. Knowing that his acceptance and care as a therapist was there no matter what, allowed me the safety and security to open up and show the more "negative" aspects of myself, the not so pretty parts. The boundaries also allowed me a clear space in which his needs didn't enter, so I was really free to be whomever and whatever I wanted to be, based on my feelings or needs. I've never had that before. And at first it was scary and confusing, but later as I did learn to identify my own feelings and needs, it was something I was really grateful for. But if I thought that maybe I could have something afterwards, I think I would have modified my behavior and tried (even harder than I already was ) to please my T and make sure he liked me. It would have been harder to just worry about my needs because what if expressing my true feelings hurt him and made him withdraw a relationship later? I think it would have paralyzed me.
But for you (and correct me if I'm wrong), knowing that there can be something later, something different, is actually what has freed you up to trust the relationship enough to be able to do what you need to in order to heal. It makes me grateful that we both found the right T for us.
I could NOT agree more, Monte. Ultimately, it is love that heals us. My T, while never saying the words "I love you" did not shy away from my, or his for that matter, speaking of our relationship as a loving one. He often talked about the fact that he was not the source of the love, that it flowed through him from an infinite source, which is why he had enough for all his clients. But again, I would posit HOW we experience that love is vitally important to our healing. For me, especially because of my father's egregious violations of my boundaries, love has been expressed through my T holding clear boundaries and creating safety for me. For you, it sounds like the love has been expressed by your T making clear that his care and love for you transcend the necessities of your present relationship and will continue no matter how the nature of the relationship changes. This allows you to trust him, just as my Ts boundaries allowed me to trust him.
And of course, this is hard to communiciate precisely because it's felt in the heart. When we start to confront these truths, they are more felt than known, so to express them is why we turn to art. You have experienced what you are trying to express, you just don't quite know how to articulate it. That makes it no less true (perhaps more true. )
I did not for a moment think you were gloating or saying "look what I have." When I said I envy you, it was because it's true that I do a little bit. But it was also my way of saying that I recognize that there is more than one way to do this and I wouldn't claim mine is the best way or the right way for everyone.
Monte, if this was an option for me, I'd have blueprints and a contractor.
AG
First I want to say that I didn't feel any criticism in what you said or a disparaging of my T. I actually thought you brought up an interesting perspective and were identifying what it is that is helping you heal. I think you are doing incredible work with your T so there is a great deal of value in you analyzing WHY its working for you. I thought it was an interesting conversation so I was offering my experience. I don't think there's really a right and wrong here, if that makes sense. I think there's what's effective or not effective for any given dyad. And honestly, it's just nice being able to talk about my T.
quote:I guess I've always got the impression that the mention of a future 'normal', more reciprocal relationship with one's T seemed to elicit a red-flag response on the forum. Though I can understand why it would and can see such things could go terribly awry, I think they could also work beautifully and fall into place as a natural God-given progression.
Monte, I totally agree, both with the red-flag response and with the possibility that it could turn out to be a very good thing. My feel for the red-flag response is based on my own weaknesses. If my T had held out the hope of something after therapy, I would have worked too hard to behave in therapy, if that makes sense. Knowing that his acceptance and care as a therapist was there no matter what, allowed me the safety and security to open up and show the more "negative" aspects of myself, the not so pretty parts. The boundaries also allowed me a clear space in which his needs didn't enter, so I was really free to be whomever and whatever I wanted to be, based on my feelings or needs. I've never had that before. And at first it was scary and confusing, but later as I did learn to identify my own feelings and needs, it was something I was really grateful for. But if I thought that maybe I could have something afterwards, I think I would have modified my behavior and tried (even harder than I already was ) to please my T and make sure he liked me. It would have been harder to just worry about my needs because what if expressing my true feelings hurt him and made him withdraw a relationship later? I think it would have paralyzed me.
But for you (and correct me if I'm wrong), knowing that there can be something later, something different, is actually what has freed you up to trust the relationship enough to be able to do what you need to in order to heal. It makes me grateful that we both found the right T for us.
quote:I guess I'm responding with: "I need love more than I need wisdom...skills...objectivity...therapeutic brilliance." Love is the great healer, in a way that clever therapy cannot be. I feel loved by my T in a real and personal way and that impacts me more than his skills as a therapist. The two working together are a powerful combination.
I could NOT agree more, Monte. Ultimately, it is love that heals us. My T, while never saying the words "I love you" did not shy away from my, or his for that matter, speaking of our relationship as a loving one. He often talked about the fact that he was not the source of the love, that it flowed through him from an infinite source, which is why he had enough for all his clients. But again, I would posit HOW we experience that love is vitally important to our healing. For me, especially because of my father's egregious violations of my boundaries, love has been expressed through my T holding clear boundaries and creating safety for me. For you, it sounds like the love has been expressed by your T making clear that his care and love for you transcend the necessities of your present relationship and will continue no matter how the nature of the relationship changes. This allows you to trust him, just as my Ts boundaries allowed me to trust him.
And of course, this is hard to communiciate precisely because it's felt in the heart. When we start to confront these truths, they are more felt than known, so to express them is why we turn to art. You have experienced what you are trying to express, you just don't quite know how to articulate it. That makes it no less true (perhaps more true. )
quote:And I am also not gloating and saying nya-nya I have this fabulous friendship with my T lined up for future...just waiting in the wings until we sort me out. All he's said is that he has no objection to future relationship beyond his room, provided there is a valid context.
I did not for a moment think you were gloating or saying "look what I have." When I said I envy you, it was because it's true that I do a little bit. But it was also my way of saying that I recognize that there is more than one way to do this and I wouldn't claim mine is the best way or the right way for everyone.
quote:Of course at this point in time I plan on creating one.
Monte, if this was an option for me, I'd have blueprints and a contractor.
AG
quote:As for me, what I need most and what I am attempting to get from my T is the nurturing love that I did not get as a child. Aside from our T's this kind of focus, love and nurture would have come from a parent. We missed that opportunity to be the focus and center of someone's (our parents) world and so now we can experience it in therapy. For that time when we are with our T's we are the center of their world and it feels really good. My T does offer the protection, understanding and attention that I never had and I experience his nurturing as the love I have always yearned for. While it's not a perfect do-over of childhood it's close and my hope it that his love can help fill that empty place I have wrestled with for so many years.
TN,
I think this makes so much sense. We cannot go back and replace everything we lost BUT our T's focus on our needs and attunement towards us, their nurturing IS what allows us to complete the developmental steps that were short circuited by lack of care in our childhoods. It's how we learn both the skills to heal and the skills to lead a full life. Transmitted limbically, right brain to right brain, learned intrinsically.
AG
Hi Monte, AG and TN.
Monte...I took absolutely no offense to what you have said. It was good to read a different point of view. Each of our experiences with our therapists are unique and completely our own. What you said is valid. I want to reply and expand on all that you AG & TN have said, but i have to catch up on some work and then sleep glorious sleep! I so wanted to write tonight, but cannot really concentrate when i know i have work to catch up on too!! Speak tmrw. HC
Monte...I took absolutely no offense to what you have said. It was good to read a different point of view. Each of our experiences with our therapists are unique and completely our own. What you said is valid. I want to reply and expand on all that you AG & TN have said, but i have to catch up on some work and then sleep glorious sleep! I so wanted to write tonight, but cannot really concentrate when i know i have work to catch up on too!! Speak tmrw. HC
quote:But...I lifted the above quotes from you and AG, because something about the notion that a therapist is a therapist and there is this line you can ever cross bugs me.
Just really related to this quote. For me, that whole notion seems to imply that we're not human beings. Or that the therapist isn't a human being. There's something cold about it and/or a sense that there is something damaged about me, and/or that I am just this huge transferential mess while the T is this perfect being. Intellectually I know the boundaries are there to protect us precisely because clients have gotten hurt from therapists who crossed those boundaries. But emotionally, it rubs me the wrong way.
I say all this all the while knowing that if I ever saw T socially, I would run in the other direction.
quote:The last thing in the world I would want with my T is he as a partner in a normal, equal 'love' relationship. Not because I think he's unappealing - because he's very nice - but because I don't have those sorts of feelings and don't wish for romantic attention from him. TN, it is as you said with your T. His is a parent-like focus, with love and nurture directed at me, though with limitations of course. Just as a parent doesn't expect a child to 'deliver' in terms of reciprocating the meeting of needs, I don't need to worry about making my T feel good. I do respond to him with respect and show gratitude (mostly) for what he offers...but mostly I just grow from it. Slowly. I'm guessing he takes a certain amount of pleasure from that, just as parents like to see their kids grow in a healthy direction. But I don't for a minute think he is a literal parent substitute or that he holds me with same affection that he would his own kids. Ouch...that hurts to say. But he is parent-like to the child-like part of me that needs re-parenting, in order to release it and allow it grow up. It is quite beautiful really and yes, likely to happen best in the context of therapy.
Very well put Monte and you are correct. I sort of got a little off track with what I was saying. I wrote love but I also think even in a close friendship both parties needs are in the equation. That does not mean it's impossible to be friends with your T, just that it may be trickier to manage it because both parties I think would have to adjust to the new definition of the relationship.
I am guessing that you are thinking of seeing your T in a church/religious social way. Where you would be together in sharing a common interest. Or maybe even meeting up for a cup of tea now and then. I truly can see that happening if both parties can accept it for what it is and not expect the "old" roles to hold true of patient/T.
And, to clarify, I did not really think you had romantic feelings for your T. I know your feelings for T are very similar to mine which is that nuturing parental kind of love for them. It is no less powerful and healing but it's not romantic and I understand that. I used to think that my oldT would be in my life in some capacity even after I left therapy because of his connection to my son, and camp and even perhaps in helping me switch careers. I saw him as a future mentor for me. Alas, that was not to be and it was hard to let that go as well as him being my T. But I understand that this is a reflection of him and not me. And truly, it's his loss.
Thanks Monte for engaging in this conversation. I have enjoyed it. You too AG
Hugs to you
TN
Hi All,
Not much to add at this point, but wanted to say that I really enjoyed talking about this with you. Thanks.
AG
Not much to add at this point, but wanted to say that I really enjoyed talking about this with you. Thanks.
AG
Hi Monte,AG,TN,Liese. One of my good friends is a psychotherapist. We have known each other for about 5 years and it is quite a close friendship. When i felt the need to see a therapist i had told her about how i was feeling. She knows about my recent history and my very difficult childhood and i know about her very difficult childhood too. We had spoken about this like friends would do, but never in too much detail. I knew instinctively from the beginning that i would never ask her to become my therapist (she would not do this anyway). Every relationship be it a friendship, close, not so close. periphery friends, family(close), not so close. associates, neighbours, everyone we come in contact with, there are these natural unspoken boundaries that we all instictively know not to cross. Of course there are times when we may cross them and other's may cross our's, but generally we all respect one another's boundaries, be it from the bank teller to your best friend. (I know i am probably pointing out the absolute obvious here, but it is just my of building up to why i believe friendship and the wishing for a frienship is (My own belief), not helpful through therapy.
For me, when my attachment and desire for mother figure/friend started, i had put my therapist on a very LARGE pedestal, she was my answer to all my prayers and i had lost the ability to see her as a human being. (all part of the attachment process) If my T friend had offered to mentor me and i had accepted, believing that it would be good to have a friend as a therapist, i would have ended up in a terrible mess. Can you imagine the extra complicated, multitude of feelings that i would have had to cope with?, and then have to be able to see her socially without feeling awkward, embarrassed etc, it would have completely changed the dynamics of our friendship, which is precisely why she would never have offered to be my T. She knew exactly what i was about to go through. I would never have been able to tell a friend no matter how close i was to them, that i now felt as though they had become a mother figure to me! I would never have been able to act out the way i did and NEEDED and i certainly could never have told her those dark things about my childhood.
I am working backwards here, "friend to therapist" instead of "therapist to friend", but i believe that during therapy, when we need THERAPY and not a FRIEND, if that relationship changed to "therapist-friend", the changing of the dynamics in that relationship would have the same negative impact on our therapy, as "friend to therapist", would change the friendship completely.
We go into therapy "blindfolded" in many ways, we know why we want therapy...but we really have no idea how the relationship is going to evolve or how we are going to evolve with it. But ALL of us, so far that i have seen on this site have established a very "attached - love/mother figure/father figure etc" to our therapist. All part of our need to establish a trusting relationship that we did not experience in childhood. From that point our healing, as painful and hard as it is begins. It is so NATURAL to want that figure to become a bigger part of our lives - it is intoxicating to say the least. But in a moment of agonising over my feelings for my therapist, I was facing and questioning what were my CORE feelings for her? I realised that the core feeling is COMFORT - A MOTHER'S COMFORT. Everytime i miss her, i think what is the dominant feeling i'm experiencing to "missing her", and it always comes to the same thing "i need her comfort right now, i need that loving motherly advice, i need to feel completely comfortable with what i need to say to her. - COMFORT. I would never be able to tell a friend that. If you think of all the friends or close family that you have, is there any one of them that you could have that same strong COMFORT desire for? We all get pleasure from our friends ,from this site and other sources, we can all talk to each other about how therapy is going, we can all have heart to heart talks with our friends.... but would we ever get that same CORE feeling of COMFORT that we get with wanting/needing our therapists? So for me it is ABSOLUTELY normal to want the friend, to battle through the boundaries etc...but eventually we have to face what it is we REALLY want/need from therapy. A relationship with a therapist is very strong - strong bonds are formed and necessary. But whilst going through therapy, for me, (although i still fight it!) it needs to stay as therapy. As we grieve for our childhoods and the grieving is done and we feel stronger, more capable, more understanding and accepting or ourselves and our own histories, as AG said we will always love our therapists, we will always want to stay in touch, just the intesity of those feeling will become easier and easier and change. My belief is whilst in therapy, stay focused on the therapy. If after the work is done and the relationship should develop into a friendship it will be on an equal footing - a 2 way street, which is what frienship is all about. It would be very difficult for me to have a 2 way street relationship with my therapist whilst going through therapy.
Anyway, I am very much a "work in progress", and after reading back over this, i hope i have not come over to lecturish!! I have enjoyed the debate of this subject. HC
For me, when my attachment and desire for mother figure/friend started, i had put my therapist on a very LARGE pedestal, she was my answer to all my prayers and i had lost the ability to see her as a human being. (all part of the attachment process) If my T friend had offered to mentor me and i had accepted, believing that it would be good to have a friend as a therapist, i would have ended up in a terrible mess. Can you imagine the extra complicated, multitude of feelings that i would have had to cope with?, and then have to be able to see her socially without feeling awkward, embarrassed etc, it would have completely changed the dynamics of our friendship, which is precisely why she would never have offered to be my T. She knew exactly what i was about to go through. I would never have been able to tell a friend no matter how close i was to them, that i now felt as though they had become a mother figure to me! I would never have been able to act out the way i did and NEEDED and i certainly could never have told her those dark things about my childhood.
I am working backwards here, "friend to therapist" instead of "therapist to friend", but i believe that during therapy, when we need THERAPY and not a FRIEND, if that relationship changed to "therapist-friend", the changing of the dynamics in that relationship would have the same negative impact on our therapy, as "friend to therapist", would change the friendship completely.
We go into therapy "blindfolded" in many ways, we know why we want therapy...but we really have no idea how the relationship is going to evolve or how we are going to evolve with it. But ALL of us, so far that i have seen on this site have established a very "attached - love/mother figure/father figure etc" to our therapist. All part of our need to establish a trusting relationship that we did not experience in childhood. From that point our healing, as painful and hard as it is begins. It is so NATURAL to want that figure to become a bigger part of our lives - it is intoxicating to say the least. But in a moment of agonising over my feelings for my therapist, I was facing and questioning what were my CORE feelings for her? I realised that the core feeling is COMFORT - A MOTHER'S COMFORT. Everytime i miss her, i think what is the dominant feeling i'm experiencing to "missing her", and it always comes to the same thing "i need her comfort right now, i need that loving motherly advice, i need to feel completely comfortable with what i need to say to her. - COMFORT. I would never be able to tell a friend that. If you think of all the friends or close family that you have, is there any one of them that you could have that same strong COMFORT desire for? We all get pleasure from our friends ,from this site and other sources, we can all talk to each other about how therapy is going, we can all have heart to heart talks with our friends.... but would we ever get that same CORE feeling of COMFORT that we get with wanting/needing our therapists? So for me it is ABSOLUTELY normal to want the friend, to battle through the boundaries etc...but eventually we have to face what it is we REALLY want/need from therapy. A relationship with a therapist is very strong - strong bonds are formed and necessary. But whilst going through therapy, for me, (although i still fight it!) it needs to stay as therapy. As we grieve for our childhoods and the grieving is done and we feel stronger, more capable, more understanding and accepting or ourselves and our own histories, as AG said we will always love our therapists, we will always want to stay in touch, just the intesity of those feeling will become easier and easier and change. My belief is whilst in therapy, stay focused on the therapy. If after the work is done and the relationship should develop into a friendship it will be on an equal footing - a 2 way street, which is what frienship is all about. It would be very difficult for me to have a 2 way street relationship with my therapist whilst going through therapy.
Anyway, I am very much a "work in progress", and after reading back over this, i hope i have not come over to lecturish!! I have enjoyed the debate of this subject. HC
(((HAVE COURAGE))))
You didn't sound preachy at all. I really got a lot out of the way you described it, your back to front analogy with the friend becoming the therapist. I have a friend I can talk to about anything. I asked T why wasn't that enough for me? Why did I need him so much? And I think it's precisely that with my friend, when it's about her needs, it's about her needs. That doesn't happen with my T. I was curious to know if your friend the therapist gave you any advice re: the attachment stuff or if the two of you just basically stayed away from it.
((((MONTE))))
I wonder if you are just trying to say that the therapeutic relationship needs to be more flexible, depending on individual needs? There are articles out there to that effect, especially in re: to the CTPSD stuff and I think there is a therapist out there named Robin Shapiro who talks about that stuff too. You are not the only one beating that drum. It seems to me that as the evidence-based treatment stuff becomes the centerpiece of therapy, it would be all too easy for a T to operate on automatic. I think my T was doing this with me and I wasn't responding the way "everyone else" does. He didn't say that but I did. I agree with you that it's the needs of the client that should come first.
I'm wondering if you could broach that church thing with your T again, armed with articles that talk about allowing flexibility and sometimes even boundary crossings. Boundary crossings can be very beneficial and as long as the two of you talk it out and you both know what is going on, who is to say that it would be wrong or somehow hurtful to you? That would be between you and T.
I'm adding what I found on Robin Shapiro's website with a reference to an article by Paul Matiuzzi.
Empirically-based Treatment?
Paul Matiuzzi's blog post nails the controversary about "empirically-based treatment" for therapists: Read it here: http://everydaypsychology.com/...alls-for-end-of.html
Empirically-based research is a helpful guide to what works for some people some of the time. I absolutely follow the research in my field. But if something doesn't work for the client in front of you, you must try something else.
In about an hour, I'll be explaining to my editor why I can't, in good conscience, write the protocol-driven trauma treatment plan book she's asking for. Trauma clients are individuals with ideosynchratic biologies, temperaments, histories, and cultures. One treatment plan can't fit all. My last book was all about knowing as many therapies as possible, so that you can find what works for a client in front of you.
For a scholarly (hilarious) article about the issue, check out this study on "Parachute use to prevent injury", that fails the empirical test for lack of a "no parachute use" control: http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459.full
xoxo
Liese
I edited this to fix a sentence that was lacking a vital word, something I do often, unfortunately.
You didn't sound preachy at all. I really got a lot out of the way you described it, your back to front analogy with the friend becoming the therapist. I have a friend I can talk to about anything. I asked T why wasn't that enough for me? Why did I need him so much? And I think it's precisely that with my friend, when it's about her needs, it's about her needs. That doesn't happen with my T. I was curious to know if your friend the therapist gave you any advice re: the attachment stuff or if the two of you just basically stayed away from it.
((((MONTE))))
I wonder if you are just trying to say that the therapeutic relationship needs to be more flexible, depending on individual needs? There are articles out there to that effect, especially in re: to the CTPSD stuff and I think there is a therapist out there named Robin Shapiro who talks about that stuff too. You are not the only one beating that drum. It seems to me that as the evidence-based treatment stuff becomes the centerpiece of therapy, it would be all too easy for a T to operate on automatic. I think my T was doing this with me and I wasn't responding the way "everyone else" does. He didn't say that but I did. I agree with you that it's the needs of the client that should come first.
I'm wondering if you could broach that church thing with your T again, armed with articles that talk about allowing flexibility and sometimes even boundary crossings. Boundary crossings can be very beneficial and as long as the two of you talk it out and you both know what is going on, who is to say that it would be wrong or somehow hurtful to you? That would be between you and T.
I'm adding what I found on Robin Shapiro's website with a reference to an article by Paul Matiuzzi.
Empirically-based Treatment?
Paul Matiuzzi's blog post nails the controversary about "empirically-based treatment" for therapists: Read it here: http://everydaypsychology.com/...alls-for-end-of.html
Empirically-based research is a helpful guide to what works for some people some of the time. I absolutely follow the research in my field. But if something doesn't work for the client in front of you, you must try something else.
In about an hour, I'll be explaining to my editor why I can't, in good conscience, write the protocol-driven trauma treatment plan book she's asking for. Trauma clients are individuals with ideosynchratic biologies, temperaments, histories, and cultures. One treatment plan can't fit all. My last book was all about knowing as many therapies as possible, so that you can find what works for a client in front of you.
For a scholarly (hilarious) article about the issue, check out this study on "Parachute use to prevent injury", that fails the empirical test for lack of a "no parachute use" control: http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459.full
xoxo
Liese
I edited this to fix a sentence that was lacking a vital word, something I do often, unfortunately.
Hi Liese. I am so sorry it has taken so long to reply. No, I have never discussed with my F about the attachment and love process. It was such a personal thing for me. I have spoken to her a litle about the hurtful things i perceived my therapist to have said, and she was able to change my thought pattern and have me look at the "perceived hurtful comment" in a more positive and non destructive way. I really wanted to keep our friendship separate from my therapy. HC
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