yeah, I think you are right dragonfly.

When you pointed out it's been 4 months, I realized it isn't actually that long of a time.

I like the idea of waiting until later. I am terrible at waiting. I have such a strong drive to take care of things and get things 'fixed' and ok, and soon...

But if I did engage with her, I think you are right. I need more time to keep gaining some solid ground... before I risk opening up myself to more hurt and heartache with her. (I have had enough!)

I just wish my heart could totally let her go.

Learning to live with the unknown is tough.

I know logically in my head that even if I did meet with her, I'd still would likely be confused and mixed up, but then I think, at least I know I tried.

But I already tried! so hard with her... why?

I wonder if the draw in me to contact her and meet with her again is anything like how people who are abused sometimes are drawn to go back to the abusers. I dunno if I would characterize her as an abuser - but I certainly was hurt by some really out of wack things she did that were not professional or ok with me at all. yet, I'm still drawn to go back. to figure it out. at least know what happened better, what went wrong, why did she what she did... so it doesn't happen again, so I can avoid such pain again.

I think it's sinking in that she really broke my heart and my trust, and I am finding it really tough to trust another T again. I'm trying, I'm hanging in... and I'm frustrated. Why did she do this? Why did she have to invade and then abandon me? Just leave me hanging like that?

Now I have new therapies - new types of therapy even - and I am making solid progress that I never found with her. Maybe I can't let her go yet, but I can at least focus on that. I hope.

thanks for the input.

Hi JD,

I am so glad you posted this question so you could get some feedback. Draggers' response is awesome.

I would also like to chime in because I really really REALLY understand the pull to go back "one more time" for "closure". The worst it's ever been is with my ex-BF and with my ex-T, but there have been lots of smaller instances. I wanted a better ending, because I was so sure I had done something wrong to cause the break in the relationship. It just had to be my fault somehow...and believing that gave me the hope that something was still salvageable, that I could still make it right. So I wouldn't have to face the awful and very powerless feeling of there actually being nothing I could do to fix it. Oh how I hate that. Especially when the person in question is someone I'm deeply attached to.

quote:

But I already tried! so hard with her

You are so right on when you say you already tried. Yes, you did...I remember it very well. You tried unbelievably hard, went several extra miles with her to try to fix what was going wrong. But the problem really was not you, it was her. That's why all your efforts didn't work. It takes two, and she wasn't doing her part.

I know it's hard to hear that. I'm getting better at believing the exact same thing about my ex-BF and ex-T. The logical "me" has it...but sometimes when those emotions get going, I lose sight of it (like last week in UV's thread). I went back four times to try to fix things with the ex-T, and countless times with the ex-BF (in ancient history). It never worked. I only got more confused, more frustrated, and most importantly, more HURT. Sometimes I still fantasize about fixing it and making everything right.

quote:

I'm still drawn to go back. to figure it out. at least know what happened better, what went wrong, why did she what she did... so it doesn't happen again, so I can avoid such pain again.

It is very interesting the way you worded this...you want to figure out why she did what she did, so you can avoid that pain again. Do you see the hidden assumption here? I think you are assuming that you caused her to do what she did. And that isn't possible. She chose to do what she did, not because of you, but because of her own stuff.

One thing is for sure, meeting with her will expose you to wherever she's at. The only way I can imagine it would help is if she had figured out what she had done wrong and was sorry, and was willing to admit that to you. But in my mind, if that's where she was at, then you wouldn't have to contact her - she'd be falling all over herself to call you and apologize. So IMO, the only way to "avoid such pain again" (that you didn't cause or deserve, remember) is to avoid her (and her stuff), unless and until she is ready to admit her part. And if she ever does realize that for REAL, she will feel so bad that she will contact you. No contact = still no clue...and lots of hurt waiting for you.

Janedoe, I hope this doesn't sound too preachy or "advicey" even though I've given some strong opinions...I could be wrong...it's just that I remember how much agony you went through...and in spite of it all, you took steps to take care of yourself...and now you are doing so well, it really is delightful to hear about how you are doing and to see you start healing...if nothing else, maybe just hold off for a while, like Draggers said.

Hugs,
SG

Hi Jane Doe. I have to agree with Dragonfly here. I think if you sit with this longer, and just give yourself permission to feel whatever it is you feel (grief, anger, confusion), eventually it will get easier. If you contact her and meet with her again, it will surely set you back, and you've been doing so well...

I was in a similar spot nine months ago, having quit therapy with my P and then missed him terribly for three months. So I decided to go back and "work it out". Well, it didn't work. What I had planned to be a one-time session (I chickened out on what I wanted to say) turned into six months of almost unbearable awkwardness, and I never did work out what went "wrong" with my therapy and how to get over him. And in the process I made a fool of myself and made him terribly uncomfortable, to the point that I could tell he was relieved when I said I wasn't coming back anymore.

Now here I am in therapy with someone else still trying to work through this.

Don't put yourself through that. You're doing great without her.

Jandoe I remember really well the awful time you went through with your old T - don’t even need to reread the links I remember it so well.

I want to say that I relate so closely to your wishing now that you could see her again to resolve some of the issues with her - not least an explanation of why she acted as she did. What she did was so bizarre and negative that even if you managed to see that it was something in her and not in you, the fact remains that it affected you profoundly and you ended up struggling big time with it all. On that basis I too would have a continuous underground sense of something that needs resolving/explaining.

I suppose if I were in your shoes and feeling strong enough I’d probably seriously think about contacting her with a view to talking over some of the things that happened. It may be that she will show herself to be truly as screwed up as she revealed in her actions towards you, and maybe that’s important for you to see so as not to start painting her in a better light (read, blaming yourself for some of what happened!) On the other hand you may get proper answers to some of your questions that will help you undo some of the bad feelings you still carry around because of what happened. Hm very roundabout way of saying that yes I probably would get in touch - I’d just make sure I had plenty of support in case it opened up bad things that could be overwhelming.

JD whatever you decide, it’s actually really good to hear that you’re in a place now where you can think about what happened from a caring about yourself perspective.

LL

p.s. wrote this reply but didn’t post it straightaway and now see others have posted suggesting that maybe it’s not a good idea and I can see exactly what they mean and that you agree. Not sure whether to post my reply or not as it’s actually saying the opposite. Hm. Don’t know. Sorry for dithering, well I will post but obviously it’s based purely on what I would want to do in your situation and of course what you do is always going to be your decision.

LL

Hey
just wanted to say thanks so much for the input. It's been really good to consider. I'm still processing it all and will reply soon - just wanted to say thank you so much.

You all helped me have the courage to bring this very question up with my current T. I couldn't quite do that before, but all your feedback has been so good and helped me realize I needed to really ask this of others and not sort it all out in my own head on my own.

thanks so much!

gosh, since I posted, I went back and actually re-read my old posts. Shiesh. I forgot some of the stuff she did...

In the end, this is where I land: I miss her, I am still processing through what happened, and probably will be for awhile, I probably will not have the resolution or all the answers I want, I'm so glad I posted this here and got feedback, and talked to my T too...and most of all, whatever I do - I’m not ready yet to engage anything with her, if I do ever do that.


Dragonfly -

quote:

I have no idea why your T abandoned you and left you hanging, it was so wrong of her to do that.it certainly wasn't your fault…

It’s so hard to get it into my head it wasn’t all my fault nor even all about me. Thanks so much for the reminder and compassion.

I love that you had such a great connection with a horse that helped you get through it all, and even learn love and trust. Just makes my heart smile for you. And it gives me hope. I think I’m beginning to slowly learn that in a really new and good way…

Strummergirl - You really put it so well and brought out some good things that really made me think. (and no, you were not too “preachy” or “advicey” at all! It was just the kind of feedback I needed. )

quote:

It is very interesting the way you worded this...you want to figure out why she did what she did, so you can avoid that pain again. Do you see the hidden assumption here? I think you are assuming that you caused her to do what she did. And that isn't possible. She chose to do what she did, not because of you, but because of her own stuff.

I’m so glad you said that. I think it’s beginning to sink in that I couldn’t do anything about it. I want to fight that realization! I want it to be something that makes more sense! I don’t think I’m going to get that, not right now...

You are right, while I tried so hard, she didn’t. At least not in the right way. I couldn’t do a thing about it to change her.

I can’t really avoid stuff like this happening with another T either. That scares me. I don’t want to hurt again! Yet, I am having an increasing sense of peace that it is worth the risk to try, only with a new T. Echo - thanks for the encouragement and feedback. I’m so sorry it didn’t work out for you in trying to go back to your old P. It is a very good reality/reminder for me that it might just be all worse. Yeah, I don’t need to go back and get pulled in and have more crud to sort through.

Lamplighter - you have such good insight. Thanks for posting.

quote:

I suppose if I were in your shoes and feeling strong enough I’d probably seriously think about contacting her with a view to talking over some of the things that happened. It may be that she will show herself to be truly as screwed up as she revealed in her actions towards you, and maybe that’s important for you to see so as not to start painting her in a better light (read, blaming yourself for some of what happened!)

You said it really well. While there is a huge part of me that wants to fix it and have it all explained, I am also drawn to see if this would happen too: that if it’s not fixable, I would finally see it for as it is - not my fault - but her stuff - and really get that through my head. I’m tired of just trying to keep convincing myself that she was that way and still is. Part of me wants to just see it and know for sure.

And you are right, I would need to really make sure there is the support to almost pull me out or help me through it if it went ary.

Thanks for the encourgement too.

Just one other thing that really stuck out for me. this is probably gonna be a little of a rant...

Strummergirl, you said:

quote:

One thing is for sure, meeting with her will expose you to wherever she's at. The only way I can imagine it would help is if she had figured out what she had done wrong and was sorry, and was willing to admit that to you. But in my mind, if that's where she was at, then you wouldn't have to contact her - she'd be falling all over herself to call you and apologize. So IMO, the only way to "avoid such pain again" (that you didn't cause or deserve, remember) is to avoid her (and her stuff), unless and until she is ready to admit her part. And if she ever does realize that for REAL, she will feel so bad that she will contact you. No contact = still no clue...and lots of hurt waiting for you.

You are kinda so right on here that it’s creepy.

When I went away for intensive treatment out of state, the staff asked me about my old T. They wanted to know what happened to suspend treatment and if she was willing to treat me again. I asked them to just ask her directly. I was scared what my old T would say, but I actually really wanted their help to deal with my feelings about her. At that time, I had no idea what I was going to do for therapy when I went back home and I was too exhausted to try and explain the confusing mess of where ever things were at with her. I sent a single text to my old T to ask her send her last letter to me (that I had forgotten to bring with me) so I could read it with their support at the treatment place. I was nervous to tell her where I was and thought that was a sign maybe I should return to therapy with her, but I figured the letter would be really good to talk to the staff about. The old T texted me back "sure!" and asked for the fax number of the treatment place. I sent it to her. I signed a release and the treatment staff faxed that to my old T. They called her and left two messages asking to talk with her.

My old T never faxed the letter and she never called back the treatment staff. I never knew why. I was confused, but kinda didn't care too. I just was tired of it.

However, my old T DID call my current T a couple of weeks after getting back from the intensive. She didn't even know if I was in tberapy with my current T or not. She was calling my current T to talk about another patient they happened to have in common. While playing phone tag, she apparently left a message with current T that said, “I know we don't have a release, but I’m just wondering how Emily is doing if you happen to know and are still connected with her.”

I was so mixed up when this happened.

At first I was mad, but only about how she called my current T, instead of calling me or the treatment staff out of state. If she wanted to know how I was doing, then why not give me a call?! Talk to the treatment team? I told my current T this and she said she thought maybe my old T really wanted to not trigger me by calling me and had no idea about the rest. well, ok. kinda makes sense. But somehow that made me more mad. I wanted to tell my old T that if she wanted to know how I was then SOL, she should not have left me. Instead I told her I'd get back to her later about it.

I had a lot of mixed thoughts then. I wanted to almost like punish my old T. Then I felt that was kinda silly because there was no way I could really even do that and that it wouldn't really help me. I also wanted to call her. I wanted my T to call her. I wanted to tell her lots of good things, I wanted to connect with her and say, you care? really? I wanted to see her.

My old T wanted to know if I was ok. She asked in a way that wasn’t ok with me, but she did wonder about me. Maybe she cared or was feeling guilty or who knows.

In the end, I focused on one thing: I didn’t want to respond back in a way that was out of hurt or spite. That would be giving her more power. I told my current T that she could call her and say something about me or not call her if my current T didn't think it was a good idea. I told her that if she did say something about me, then saying something VERY SIMPLE would be ok. "(JD's) ok, in therapy, and it’s going well." No more. That felt ok. And it let me let it go... I pretty much forgot about it and moved on.

But then I was reminded of it recently that my old T said “I don’t have a release, but…“

BOUNDARIES! Does she have no respect for boundaries?! wait...she didn’t really have respect for them towards the end of when I was seeing her either... it's not like this is new...

My current T didn’t even respond at all in any way to the message UNTIL she talked to me first. whoa. Pretty different than my old T. My current T said she could do whatever I felt ok with - not even say anything, say something - whatever felt ok to me. She cared most about me and what felt respectful of my boundaries.

My old T wasn’t calling for my sake. I don’t think she had any expectation my T would talk to me about it and was actually intentionally trying to avoid me. Not even bothering to ask to have a release in place. they both know I am fiercely protective of privacy. Towards the end of seeing my old T, we were in serious disagreement about me signing off on releasing my entire educational/medical/ectera records to her before I was ready, and without talking to me about those records and info. I was not ok with her just having that info without talking with me about them and what she thought about them. She said getting the info was ESSENTIAL to her treating me and she would not agree to for sure talk with me about what she thought about them. (Perhaps that had some theraputic value...) It was clear she needed the stupid signed releases to get info about me and she gave me hell about getting those releases to her or no appointment... I gave them to her and then she leaves me hanging - not ended, not continued - so I cancel all releases, I go off for treatment, and I sign release for her to give them info. She gives total mixed messages and in the end refuses to share HER info with them.

yeah, so much for her adamnt stance that having info from others being so essential to proper treatment of me.

Then I get back and she’s almost like going behind my back to call someone she doesn't even know is my current T or not, and tries to get info without a release.

huh?!

It’s clear she cares about me doing ok. But it feels like a really co-dependent caring...

This is a lot to interpret out of one phone call.

But SG, you mentioning that she would call me and apoligize, it reminded me of that call to my current T (and I am so glad - it‘s a good thing.) Now I can see it differently than I did even two months ago. My old T isn’t showing any signs of change, let alone apology. Realizing that is helping me let her go.

my thoughts? don't go back, i know how hard it is to move on, your situation is particularly complex, but i think keeping a steady focus forward with out too much looking in the rear view mirror is good advice i once got and try to refer to often.

and two, it is almost impossible to resolve this in one easy session, and the damage and refocus on the past, idk, i think it is sticky junk that is best to keep moving through.

others have replied better, but, in that i think about this often with my T1, i just know that it would never work out how i want it to, like fixing my childhood, i can't turn the clock back...this is a big transference deal for me, anyway. and i think, again for me, is rooted in fantasy thinking, and the truth is, the real world doesn't resolve in neat little packages, even though i WISH it would. THAT reality is what i HAVE to one day realize and accept and let go of the messy little things that keep SPINNING around in my head that i wish would have ended differently. again, i may be projecting myself onto you, but, this is my reality, and hope it helps you. it is SO hard to let go of those relationships even though i know in my sound mind, when i can find it, will be best to just let time try to heal. i feel for you so much, i feel your pain and confusion, and relate so much to it, but i hope that each day forward will make MY unrealistic expectations from an imperfect person, just a fantasy that would prove more frustration than healing. and i for one, have enough real problems than to drag any forward that perhaps could just be left where they are. hugs to you, i know it is hard, and that letting time pass is one of the hardest moves. but look at the months you have moved away, let that momentum, perhaps, encourage you that it is going to get easier.

ohhhh how much i would like to revisit him, but i know, like someone said, i could NEVER really get it all out, and he would NEVER admit his lapse in responsibility to me. NEVER. it would just frustrate the living HELL out of me!!! and i would spend more time in my current therapy resolving that issue.....it is just sickening to me how complicated this all gets...hope i have encouraged you to keep moving forward, i feel my rage triggered, i hope i am appropriate in what i say. hugs!!!!

jill - oh i love what you shared. It's really good... still processing through a lot, your post included, and I only have a moment to post - but I just wanted to say thanks. you have great input and iot reminded me of some good things that i needed to be reminded of and linked together some stuff for me. will probably post more later. Thanks!!!

Janedoe- Just wanted to let you know that I know how you feel and what a tough position you are in right now. I am in the same place with three people who were very important to me that seriously hurt me and then basically told me to never contact them again. One was my sister and its been three months since she said it and two others were friends that did it over stuff they dont even know everything about. I think of them every day and have thoughts of wanting to contact them just to either get closure or make things better because I cant deal with the pain of "what if". I was given the advice by my therapist that if I am not in a place where I can go through this type of pain again then to not contact any of them. Losing the friends without getting to explain anything or hear their side is killing me....but my sister is even worse, she is the last contact to my biological family (we were adopted together though) and I struggle with the question daily of to call or not to call or even whether it would be okay to text or write. But I know the truth is that I could not handle the pain I went through again so even though I am still hurting right now with not knowing that I am better off.

I am hoping that one day I will be at a place that I can contact these people and it wont matter how they respond because it wont hurt me and Ill be better off knowing the "what if" but if Im being honest with myself that time is not now.

So when I first read your post my first thought was I would contact her but thats because I am a lot like you with the "I need to fix things" and "Im bad at waiting." So I would have been answering from a place of not doing what was best for me or for you but answering because of what I "feel" like I needed to do to get answers.

So all that to say I would wait to contact her. I know it is hard, especially when it is someone you care about and love so much, just like my sister is to me. But no matter how much we love them it was not our faults they hurt us and it is not fair to us to put ourselves through more pain for them that could tear us apart and destroy our lives even further. Its not worth it and its not safe until it can be done knowing that whatever they do or say that we will still be okay.

Hang in there cause I know its hard and that its a daily battle. And I often feel this way one minute and then think "what if I just texted her, or contacted her on facebook" the next minute. So Im just trying to be strong and resist the urges to do it.

thanks pippi!

that's really helpful

I'm still processing and I dunno what I will do in the long term...

for now, I will wait.

I think this is so apt:

quote:

Love that we can not have
is the one that last the longest,
hurts the deepest and feels the strongest.

just because people don't love you the way you want them to, doesn't mean they don't love you with all they are and have

...so painfully true.

Yeah, those two quotes make my think of my P which is why I use them. The first about the love we cant have hurting the most and lasting the longest is so true and the way I feel about my P is going on 12 years now and has been the most painful thing ever.

And the second one is something I try to remember when it comes to my P because I know he cant love me the way I want him to but he does love and care about me in every way that he can. It doesnt make it any more easier to deal with knowing this but some times it makes me feel at least a little better about it.