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22 replies

My mother makes me nervous. Opinions, please.

heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
So, my youngest is turning one in a few days and we decided to have a small birthday celebration for her here at the house, mostly inviting just family.

H’s parents tend to be harder to pin down and like a lot of notice, so he called them two, maybe three weeks ago to pick out a date. They said they could come this Saturday, he asked me if that would work, I said “sure” and then called my family.

Me: Hey, Ma. We are thinking of having a birthday party for B here Saturday the 31st. Can y’all come?
Mother: Oh. Okay. What day is that?
Me: Saturday
Mother: Oh. (pause) (coldly) Is there any *reason* you are having it on a Saturday rather than a Sunday?
Me: I don’t know. Don’t people go to church on Sunday sometimes? Does there have to be a reason? Can y’all not come that day?
Mother: Oh, no. I just wondered if there was a reason. It might be easier for your brother to come on Sunday.

I told her that I wasn’t really expecting my brother and SIL to be able to come at all, since they both work a lot, and SIL never knows her work schedule more than a few days ahead of time, and that I would invite them but it was pointless to try to plan the party around them, and that they never like to come up here anyway because they don’t want to spend the money on gasoline.

Then, just to be agreeable, I put her on hold and asked H if we could switch to Sunday, and he gets all nervous and said that he already told his parents Saturday, and that his brother (who might have been able to come with them) had to get to the airport Sunday. I told my mother this and she was like, “Oh, all right, if there’s something with H's brother. . .”

I called her again today to ask about something and she said, “Oh. Does it matter if the party is on a Saturday or Sunday?”

Me: Well, we’ve already told people it would be Saturday.
Mother: (vaguely) Oh, okay.
Me: Would it be better for you on Sunday?
Mother: No, I just wondered. But of course if you told H’s parents Saturday already you can’t go changing everything back and forth. (accusingly) It just might have been easier for your brother on a Sunday.

I didn’t get into the explanation I went over weeks ago. I just got off the phone. But now I feel tense, and anxious, and cruddy about not having planned the stupid party for a Sunday, or at least having asked her first which day she wanted.

And I was thinking. . . this is just how it is with my mom and always has been. I try to attune to her enough to guess what it is that I’m supposed to be doing, I suppose so that I can avoid these guilt feelings when I apparently guess wrongly.

I really just wondered if I could get some other people’s perspectives and opinions on this interaction. Does it make sense that she makes me a nervous wreck, or should I conclude this is about something-or-other else and try to figure out what’s wrong with me along different lines?

Thank you,
heldincompassion
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heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
I dunno, draggers. I feel like if I love my mom (and I do) I should be always doing what I can to make her happy, or keep her happy. If I do something that upsets her, even slightly, it does trigger oceans of guilt and then, ironically, anger at her for "making" me feel guilty. It all takes an enormous amount of energy, but I don't really know what do about it. I can't see at all clearly when I'm in this pattern, even if there is something I'm getting wrong that's obvious, I'm not sure what. When I talk to my T about it she tends to start criticizing my mom and then I change the subject. Roll Eyes

Thanks for your reply and kind words and listening to me spill. ((((Hug)))))
catalystcatalystMember
Ugh! It completely makes sense

It's like she's holding in secret feelings.

My T taught me a way to ask for things that are about me, not about the other person and talk about my real feelings. Such as: "Saturday is okay for me, but I'm sad I don't know if your brother can come. Any way you'd consider Sunday?"

Or heavens forbid being accommodating like "I really want to go and have your brother there if he can make it. If we can find another night if you can't change plans could we have another celebration?"

That owns feelings and asks for something rather than confronting and guilting or (my biggest trigger) implying something rather than just being real.

(((((HIC)))))

It made me nervous just reading that. My mom does that too.
heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
Thanks catalyst and starfish. Smiler It helps to know this makes sense and that what feels like an over the top anxiety reaction to me is not all about something "just in my head".

I've been reading my own post over a few times plumbing for insights, and I had a little mini epiphany. I think I will go ahead and write about it here.

It occurred to me that the problem might be that I have this need to see myself as the "good daughter" and when she doesn't reflect that back to me, I get mad at her, or just feel threatened, or usually both. So there's an element of control there on my end too-- I try to adapt to what she wants, or think I should, because part of my self image is tied to the role I play in the relationship with her, and I want her to reflect back something positive to me so I can feel okay about myself. I do care about her, but I also care about seeing myself a certain way and maybe *that's* where I give her so much power and place myself on an emotional roller coaster.

Of course, it's not all my fault that I learned this pattern or that we're in it, but if I'm a little more conscious, can I do something about it? I wonder if I could let go of the desire to see myself a particular way. Actually, I'm not even sure if that's possible or healthy. Maybe I just need to let go of the expectation that she can be a mirror that reflects back to me what I need? Then, I don't know, interactions like that might still be irritating but not enough to ruin my afternoon.

Just thinking out loud. Thanks for hearing me. Smiler
affinityaffinityMember
(((hic)))

I have played this game before, and it is not fun. I grew up in a dysfunctional household where my mother was constantly angry, and it was my job to keep the peace and fix everything. I was not allowed to have needs or preferences, because everyone else's needs and opinions mattered more than mine. And if I ever failed to "keep everyone happy" (which was nigh to impossible), I got an all-expense paid guilt trip.

When I was growing up, my mother expected everyone in the household to read her mind and then perform according to her secret wishes. We could spend two hours cleaning the house, yet we'd get raked over the coals when she came home because the dishes weren't done, and "That was the one thing that needed to be done the most!" she'd say.

Christmas and birthdays were THE WORST. Anything we did had to be on the day of her actual birth, or it didn't count. It had to be a surprise, or it didn't count. And the gift couldn't be too cheap, too expensive, too practical or insulting in any way. As an example, my mom once went on FOR MONTHS about how she really wanted to whiten her teeth and wished she could afford whitening strips. So we saved up and bought her some for her birthday. She was incensed. "Yes, I wanted them, but not for my birthday!" she yelled. "Are you trying to say I'm ugly?" Ugh, it was a constant nightmare and a massive drain on my energy. To this day, I still struggle to celebrate holidays.

I finally realized there was no winning with her. No matter how much I tried to perceive her wishes and meet them, I wasn't going to make her happy - because she had decided to be unhappy no matter what. So I gave up. I drew a boundary. I said, "This is what you're getting from me. Like it or lump it." And after a while, she decided to like it. I don't ride the roller coaster much at all these days. And it's nice.

Hope this helps. Hug two
heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
Hey Affinity,
Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective. It did help.

Wow, your mom sounds worse than mine, but it still seems like there are profound similarities in dynamic. Mine is/was rarely explosively angry--I am sorry you grew up with that Hug two-- but she tends to rely on tactics more like moral criticism, withholding of approval, or declaring herself overwhelmed (which, I suppose she may well be. . .). It's the approval thing that can really make me jump. It's like this subtle dance of approval that's withheld and then almost, but not quite, fully extended. I don't even know if she does this on purpose or if it just comes automatically to her. Either way, it has kept me watching for cues and stressing when I don't get them right. I told T one time that our relationship was a blood sport played like a chess game.

T has also talked about setting boundaries, but I'm not even sure if or how that applies for me because my mom is not really aggressive or overbearing in her demands. Perhaps it's more a game that *I* need to stop playing. I think I know this and have actually scaled back, but it's kind of addictive. Not sure why.

Thanks again for your comments and thoughts.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
Christmas and birthdays were THE WORST. Anything we did had to be on the day of her actual birth, or it didn't count. It had to be a surprise, or it didn't count. And the gift couldn't be too cheap, too expensive, too practical or insulting in any way. As an example, my mom once went on FOR MONTHS about how she really wanted to whiten her teeth and wished she could afford whitening strips. So we saved up and bought her some for her birthday. She was incensed. "Yes, I wanted them, but not for my birthday!" she yelled.



Wow, Affinity, I had the same experiences growing up. We could never figure out the right gift for my mother. And forget about my Dad. He was useless in chosing gifts for her and we would hear about it forever. One Christmas my Dad bought her an armchair for her bedroom that she said she wanted. OMG... there was such a huge fight that year because it was not an appropriate gift. She wanted it but not for Christmas. Ruined our Christmas because she was so mad and there was so much tension in the house. My Dad could never hold onto a dollar so we would ask him to give us some money when we knew he had some and save it up so he could buy mom (shopping with us)a good gift for birthday, Christmas, anniversary, so she wouldn't get so mad and then make our lives hell.

hic... I'm sorry I have no idea how to handle this dynamic with your mom. I never learned how with my mom and by the time I got to therapy my parents were deceased.

Wishing you the best in working this out.

TN
affinityaffinityMember
quote:
T has also talked about setting boundaries, but I'm not even sure if or how that applies for me because my mom is not really aggressive or overbearing in her demands.


Forgive me if I'm coming on too strong here, but yes, setting boundaries most definitely applies to your situation. Subtle emotional manipulation (which is what this is) can be just as grievous and damaging as yelling and physical aggression. If you feel like you have to walk on eggshells every time a family function comes up, you are in a very unhealthy situation that will only get worse over time.

I can understand feeling addicted. A parent's approval is powerful to helping us form our sense of worth. If we didn't get it in childhood, the tendency is to keep seeking it in adulthood. But, too often, here is what happens:

We get better at playing the game. We do more to anticipate the parent's wishes and accommodate them. Each time, it seems that approval gets a little closer. We almost had it that last time. "If only I had used a different word during that conversation" or "If only I had moved the party back an hour like she wanted, she would be happy," you think. "I'll get it exactly right next time."

But the sad fact is you won't get it right next time. Or ever. No matter what you do. Because the moment your mother grants you her approval, you'll stop trying so hard. You'll stop obsessing about her. You'll stop making a big deal over her feelings and opinions. And that's what she wants: to be the center of your attention and to dictate your behavior. That's her addiction. Her potential approval is a carrot that she dangles in front of you to keep you attached, dependent, and catering to her every whim. If she actually gave you the carrot, all that would go away. It would change the relationship. And then who would show their "care" by giving her everything she wants?

It's such a toxic situation because bowing to her wants doesn't allow you to be your own person. It robs you of your peace and independence. Not to mention, it keeps your relationship with your mother at a superficial level. As long as you're locked in this game, the relationship will never progress to a level where you can connect in a loving, mutually respectful way. You'll both be trapped by resentment.


True North,

Wow, that stuff about your dad. That was mine all over. Sorry you had to live with that, too.
heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
Eek. Ouch. No, not coming on too strong but this all does come rather close to home! However, that was the point of writing about it here, to hopefully get some useful feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I think you are very insightful.

I have some trouble with the notion of boundary setting that I'm going to go ahead and write about here, but only reply if you want to and feel like it. Smiler

quote:
But the sad fact is you won't get it right next time. Or ever. No matter what you do. Because the moment your mother grants you her approval, you'll stop trying so hard. You'll stop obsessing about her. You'll stop making a big deal over her feelings and opinions. And that's what she wants: to be the center of your attention and to dictate your behavior. That's her addiction. Her potential approval is a carrot that she dangles in front of you to keep you attached, dependent, and catering to her every whim. If she actually gave you the carrot, all that would go away. And then who would show their "care" by giving her everything she wants?


Ugh, but then I ask myself, what do I *do* with her? Aside from the regrettable fact that my self image is somewhat tied to fulfilling my role in our relationship, I intuit that she must be profoundly insecure and suffering to act in the ways she does, and I honestly don't *want* to make that worse. I'd like to make it better if I can. We are quite "close" in the sense that when she's feeling bad about something or upset she'll often come to me and I usually try my best to figure out what she needs and provide that.

So I have a negative reaction to the idea of boundaries, because anything that would make her feel rejected or shut out just seems cruel given the facts of the case. But it's also true that I need to do something to keep from feeling angry and resentful when she acts controlling, as you pointed out. I really wonder if just being super firm with myself on the fact that I'm not going to be shopping for self worth at this store might lead to the dynamic restructuring itself naturally along healthier lines?

I hope so, because when it comes to pragmatic strategies for drawing lines in the sand, almost everything seems like a bad idea-- but perhaps I overestimate her fragility.
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
We are quite "close" in the sense that when she's feeling bad about something or upset she'll often come to me and I usually try my best to figure out what she needs and provide that.


hic.. this is all backwards and I'm sure was happening throughout your childhood as well as now too. You are taking on the role of her parent. She is supposed to be doing these things for you. Yes, you are an adult now but you are still not responsible for her happiness or lack thereof. The boundary would be: The party is set for this time and I hope you all can make it. If not, then maybe next time.

Good luck. This is a tough problem to have.

Hugs
TN
affinityaffinityMember


quote:
Aside from the regrettable fact that my self image is somewhat tied to fulfilling my role in our relationship, I intuit that she must be profoundly insecure and suffering to act in the ways she does, and I honestly don't *want* to make that worse.


Your role in any relationship is whatever you decide it should be. Relationships are mutually beneficial arrangements: both parties involved should be getting something good and necessary out of it. If you're constantly giving and not getting, you're headed for a breaking point. Your well will eventually run dry.

It is your job to be loving and supportive in relationships. It is NOT your responsibility to make anyone happy. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. If your mother is unhappy, you can't fix that. If she is insecure, you can't fix that. That's work she has to do.

When you indulge her whims, it reinforces her (conscious or unconscious) belief that you really are responsible for her happiness. So when she feels unhappy, she's going to blame you. But you still can't fix it because the problem isn't with you. It's a no-win situation.

True, she probably is insecure and suffering. I'd put money on it. But taking responsibility for her feelings and constantly indulging them isn't making things better for her. Your relationship is co-dependent. She's dependent upon you for attention and affirmation, and you're dependent upon her for approval. The fact is, neither of you are getting what you want. Because you feel nervous and resentful when you acquiesce, she doesn't get the true affirmation she craves. And because she feels disappointed, you don't get the full approval you crave. In reality, this arrangement is only FEEDING her insecurity - and yours. She may complain less, but that doesn't mean it's better.

The problem is, breaking a cycle like this will be tough for both of you. People become so addicted to crumbs that they can't fathom going without long enough to seek out the whole cake. When you start putting up boundaries, there will be some pushback. It's very likely that your mom will get upset. She'll probably pull out every guilt trip in the book to make you change your mind. She'll claim that you don't love or care about her, that you're abandoning her, that you're making Jesus cry, etc. She may decide not to speak to you for a while. She will make you feel HORRIBLE.

But if you're lucky, you'll get tired of that. You'll see how bad your relationship has been for both of you and how deep her immaturity has become. You'll get the first taste of peace and strength welling up on the inside. And then you'll tell her that you aren't bending to her tantrums this time. She'll just have to get over it. You'll still be there for her, but as her daughter and not her fixer.

And, if she chooses to grow, she will get over it. She'll make some friends - invest more in other relationships for the security she wants. She'll come to respect your decisions. And if all goes well, she may even extend that approval you've been craving for so long.

Hang in there. Hug two
heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
(((TN))) (((Affinity)))

I'm all tired out from getting ready for the infamous party tomorrow and a little brain dead, but wanted to at least come back and thank you for the comments and helpful thoughts.

TN,
Yes, it started in childhood. In fact, my father told both my brother and I when we were young not to upset my mother because she had "a weak heart". So I did literally think if I upset her it might kill her. We were in our late teens before we realized it wasn't true, but perhaps by then the habit, helped along by other things, was set. Who knows?

Affinity,
I think your analysis is good and it makes me feel more determined than ever to do some changing. I've wasted enough of my life on this sh*t ('scuse my French). I want to extricate myself, not from the relationship, but from the toxicity of these games we play. (And I don't just mean about the birthday party, which was minor in the scheme of things.) I think the more I can quit caring about her approval the better. If I didn't care, I wouldn't get angry (or worried) when she failed to extend it, and that would cut half of the negativity in the relationship out right there.

Hmm, I suppose if I had that Holy Grail "inherent sense of self worth" we all keep talking about, this and other things would be a whole lot easier! Lately I've been thinking most of my problems come from the fact that I'm too easy to manipulate.

Thanks again for your help and talking this through with me. Hug two
L lieseMember
((((HELD))))

Honestly, when I first read this, I got so mad at your mother for the way she was trying to manipulate you here. (Happy Bday to your little one, btw.) Do we have the same mothers? Wink I totally identified with your post.

quote:
Hmm, I suppose if I had that Holy Grail "inherent sense of self worth" we all keep talking about, this and other things would be a whole lot easier! Lately I've been thinking most of my problems come from the fact that I'm too easy to manipulate.


Don't be so hard on yourself here. Our patterns of relating, while not quite set in stone, are pretty hard to change. You are taking the first step here by recognizing that you are upset about the conversation. It's terrific that you could recognize it.

The sad truth is that our needs aren't going to be more important than other people's most of the time. In this situation, your H and your needs rule because the party is at your house. My guess is your Mom is having trouble dealing with the loss of her role in your life. She WAS more powerful than you when you were living at home with her but it's not that way anymore. She has her own grieving to do. You could thwart the grieving by giving into her but that wouldn't be healthy for either of you.

When people structure the world that way - that some people are more powerful than they are and others are less powerful, and that they have to stuff their own needs in the first instance and try to force the other to stuff their needs in the second instance, that is how they are going to relate to others ALL THE TIME. There will be no genuine dialogue or relationship. It will always be domination vs. submission/approval vs. rejection.


But if you think of it in terms of needs and trying to honor yours while being sensitive when it will hurt someone else, you don't have to see it in terms of stopping to seek approval. Approval is important. It sounds like your relationship with your Mom is important to you. It doesn't have to be a case of, "I don't need your approval anymore so F you because I'm going to do it my way." If you step back and think about someone, not just your Mom, who has difficulty facing the sad truth that their needs are NOT always placed first, I bet you would be able to find empathy for them because you know how it feels not to feel important.

The best way for you to help her cope is to express that empathy, verbalize the fact that you know she's upset and angry and wanted the party moved to Sunday and you are genuinely sorry, that she is upset but (here's the boundary setting part) the date has been set and you aren't changing it. It is NOT rejection although she might experience it that way. You could emphasize that you love her (if you do) and value your relationship and the fact that you aren't changing the date of the party does not mean you don't love her or she's not important to you. Eventually, hopefully, she will accept it and it will all come more naturally to you and your relationship will grow and become richer.



(((((HELD)))))

I hope everyone enjoys the party.
heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
Hey Liese,

Thanks so much for your thoughts as always. Smiler It's good to "see" you here. I meant to come back and reply before now, but thinking about all this was starting to stress me out so I took a break.

I see what you are saying about a family emphasis on power vs genuine dialogue leading to the stifling of needs, hurt, and loss of true relationship. It's true my family of origin was quite self consciously hierarchy based. Hmm.

And I also see the link between wanting power and just needing to feel important. I'm glad you brought that up. The thing is, I really didn't care which day the party was. I would have changed it round if she had asked, or been at all clear about it. What I minded was the insinuation that I was somehow to blame for not having magically known what *she* thought would have been best for my brother and acted on that. Even when I explained my (I thought) reasonable rationale where he was concerned, she continued to hold me at fault for it and seemed even more accusing when we talked that second time. I just don't understand that. It just seems mean. It's like she *wants* to think I'm being selfish and inconsiderate and there's nothing she can do about it, and *that'* what she reflects to me.

I might sound like I'm really overanalyzing a simple harmless interaction here, but this happens to be quite neatly illustrative of a pattern I often feel we enact.

So, that's why I say I think the problem is caring about her approval. It's not that I want to stop caring in the sense of becoming inconsiderate to her needs and feelings, but I want to stop caring in the sense of needing it to feel okay about myself, because otherwise just ordinary stuff like this drains me dry-- because I get so angry because of what I'm not getting.

And, hmm, maybe that's her fear (and perhaps mine?) that if I stopped being dependent on her approval I would stop being kind (to the extent that I am, lol). Why do we assume such dreadful things about me? I guess I'm just going to have to prove everyone wrong. Watch out, universe!

Wink
L lieseMember
(((HELD)))

It came across that you didn't care when the party was and it wasn't a personal thing. I never got the sense that you were NOT changing the day of the party just to make her mad. The power I referred to was that the party was at your house, etc. Your mother wasn't throwing the party. If she was, she would have had more control over when it was. So, in that way, your mother was at your mercy or your family's mercy, so to speak.

Maybe your Mom is afraid that you will become closer to your H's Mom or that their needs will become more important than hers. Maybe she was aware, on some level, that Saturday was picked in order to accommodate your H's family.

Do you have any idea what the dynamic was between her and her mother? Or her and her sisters, if she had any? She could be playing out one of those relationships with you and it might not have anything to do with you at all. Just some cray object relations thing that she is completely unaware of.

I don't see anything wrong with being frank about how you felt accused and like she wanted to think she was bad. Tell her you really didn't care what day the party was on. Put it back on her. Make her take responsibility for her part in the interaction by refusing to be the bad guy and questioning the fact that you felt she was making you the bad guy. The more we verbalize, the more it helps them verbalize and the healthier things will become? IDK, that's the theory anyway.
heldincompassionheldincompassionMember
(((Liese)))

My grandmother is one of those sweet old ladies that gets away with being picky and controlling because she is so loveable. I've actually often seen her on my mom's case about minor things. Perhaps actually being raised by her may have been more painful than I often blithely assume, and there is an intergenerational aspect to this. Thanks for the reminder.

Yes, just speaking up next time I feel accused may make a difference. I just hate to seem so touchy, but clearly I am, lol, so perhaps may as well out with it and see what happens. I also want to focus on learning to let things go, so as not to become caught in an endless "you-were-accusing-me/no-I-wasn't-you're-so-sensitive" cycle.
L lieseMember
((((HELD)))))

Those grandmothers can be so cute. I had a great relationship with my grandmother but I'm not so sure my mother did. Frowner It's sad.

quote:
I might sound like I'm really overanalyzing a simple harmless interaction here, but this happens to be quite neatly illustrative of a pattern I often feel we enact.


I'm right there with you. Wink It's all important stuff.
evaevaMember
Wow. Every now and again I find myself wishing my mother hadn't died when I was a child - in my fantasy she lived and was kind and caring and well, completely changed personalities. Then I read about the kind of upheavals others have with their mums and I know in my heart of hearts she would not have changed and all her being alive for longer would have meant was more pain and suffering for me...

Dunno if you've read up about narcissist parents? (Not tryng to diagnose your mum, just reading about the situation, it feels so familiar to me, and although I can't ever know for sure if my mother was narcissistic personality, there were definite traits there, and reading about it really really helped me understand some of her behaviour - as well as help me start to see ITS NOT MY FAULT)

Your mum is being so incredibly manipulative and selfish - like the others have said (very wise ladies!!) no matter what you do it will never be good enough - you ask her if she prefers white, she'll say black, you change it to black, she will guilt you for not making it the right shade of white - which she had wanted all along.

she wants to keep you in a highly anxious state forever - because as the others have said - it keeps you working very very hard to make it all ok for her and she has your full attention, as well as your own guilt and shame for 'failing'. And it puts the blame on YOU for not getting it right.

Isn't it strange, how you (or any of us) might work so hard to make her happy and bend over backwards to get her approval, yet it's still YOU that ends up 'wrong' and 'bad' as well as guilty and ashamed? It's like you are never allowed to have needs - she can have as many needs as possible and as impossible as it will always be to successful meet her 'needs' (aka demands); you on the other hand aren't allowed any needs.

Just know you aren't doing anything wrong. If she can't come or doesn't want to, stuff her - you go on and have the party any day you want, and if she packs a sad and doesn't come, it sounds like it would be a much nicer day overall Wink

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