my old T & the anniversary of a suicide. (caution: potential triggers)

janedoeMember

***** potentially triggering post about the subject of suicide *****
no details of any suicide, but details of feelings about it and about my old T talking about the subject.

not sure if i should post this but it's been on my mind and i dunno if this is something that would feel weird to others or just to me... i have skewed perspective on what's ok in therapy and not.

my old T told me about their former spouse who committed suicide, and how, and about how they were the one to find them...

she said that she wouldn't just tell just anyone, and she wouldn't tell it to most her clients. she told me. at the time, when she told me, it seemed helpful and relevent to the therapy... and it also felt like really personal info for her to share... like it was hard for her to share... i didn't feel like she was trying to do therapy for herself - it really seemed like she was sharing it to be helpful to me.

i didn't know how to respond. i told her i was so sorry... i don't think i would wish she hadn't told me, i still find myself glad she told me - it helped me understand her better, and yet i wonder if it was too much, if it was a sign we were too close or the relationship was going off track...

later on, it hit me that she had been helping me with suicidal thoughts a few months prior to saying this. i wasn't anywhere near acting on those thoughts, but i had them last April/May and it scared me. she never said anything about her husband then, but there was something she said that made me feel like there was something we was holding back very intentionally.

she told me about her former husband months later when things in my life and in my relationship with her were going well. it seemed ok in the moment - and it seemed intense. days later, it left me feeling awfully guilty, and yet even closer to her. there was nothing about what she shared about it that was like "you shouldn't do this because my husband did it and it hurt me." not at all.

she didn't tell me in order to talk about suicide specifically, but she shared it as we were talking about grief and non-sensical loss that i was struggling with in my own life... she was sharing it to say yeah, she gets that. she knows what it is like. she shared how the grief comes and goes in waves...

i feel awful for what she went through. i feel awful i wanted to die. i already felt bad about it before she told me what her husband did... she did help me get through those awful thoughts without acting on them. i was so scared to tell her i had been thinking of it - and yet she was so compassionate and helpful.

and her telling me this personal stuff - it makes her leaving me really confusing and even more intense. i miss her sometimes.

her husband died a few years prior to counseling with me - so it wasn't like totally fresh, but at the same time, she told me two days after the aniversary of the death.

long before his death, she was known as an expert in suicide prevention, even spoke at international convention about it. then her own husband of many many years died. how could such a thing not affect her work as a therapist? of course it would... oh my heart aches for her.

maybe it's why she got so controlling with me. i dunno. she said she would not let me die on her watch. for some reason i wanted to tell her that it wasn't her fault her husband died. and it wouldn't be if i would have...

i miss her. i can't have her in my life right now. maybe never. maybe later. i dunno.

the thing that brings this up for me right now is that the anniversary of her husbands death is a few days after the anniversary of suicide of 13 year old kiddo i used to tutor, and he died just after his family moved away, and the very same day I was struggling so bad i should have been dead and should have succeeded in my own attempt - and that anniversary is coming up soon. i have plans with friends to redeem that day...

but i wish i could talk to her about it.

my heart hurts. in so many ways.

suicide is horribly awful for those who survive it. i've been there.

i've also been someone who has been in the place of trying to die and wishing to die. it is a horrible and awful experience to be in that place where it seems like the best option at the time. i hope i am never there again and my heart goes out to anyone in that place now or has ever been. (let me say that if you are there now, please please hang in there and don't give up. i know the pain is deep and it's dark and hellish nightmare. don't give up. fight like hell to live. find any way to hang on. your life is worth it. you are worth it. more than i can ever express.)

it just all sucks and is painful beyond all reason in every direction.

was it ok for my old t to share this? i have a hard time thinking it was or wasn't. i can't change the fact that she did. i just don't know what to do with it now. would it make any sense that her sharing it would make me feel bad and yet also much closer to her? and so much harder to let go of her?

should i tell my current t that what my old t said and the anniversary dates are something on my mind? i don't want to freak out my current t by sharing this with her. ugh.

maybe i should not post any of this. maybe i should take it down?

what do you think?

honest feedback welcome.

7/9/109:02 AM

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starfishMember

janedoe

Don't take it down, you posted a warning; suicide is so taboo, it makes it harder for those of us (like me

) who have experienced such a loss, when all the world seems to want is to hide the topic away.

I can't say any more as it is too upsetting for me (upsetting but not triggering janedoe, I chose to read and could have chosen not to, so don't worry) but thank you for being brave. I haven't got the wherewithall to post a reply to what you raised at the moment, but I am sure someone else will.

starfish

7/9/109:33 AM

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janedoeMember

starfish ~

quote:
Don't take it down, you posted a warning; suicide is so taboo, it makes it harder for those of us (like me ) who have experienced such a loss, when all the world seems to want is to hide the topic away.

the taboo-ness of suicide is one thing i want to fight back against - i don't want to hold back just because it is something society tends to be too silent on. still, writing my own post was really hard for me.

i'm sorry for what is upsetting to you about it. thank you for having the courage to say that. it's a really tough subject. i'm sorry for your loss. ((((starfish))))

7/9/109:43 AM

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jonesMember

Dear JD and Starfish - I'm so sorry that you have been hurt by this in this way. I lost a close friend a few years ago, and yeah, it's horrible. He asked me to help him before he died. I can't post longer right now but I wanted to send my quiet thoughts of healing to all of us who are affected by it in any way. Also, JD, I wanted to say I'm not surprised that you feel so conflicted about your former T sharing that. It is a hugely loaded and complex thing. I don't have any answer but I'm glad you posted about this.

7/9/109:56 AM

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Attachment GirlAdmin

JD,
I'm very glad that you posted about this and its highly appropriate both for this forum and for your therapy.

I first want to tell you that there have been several periods during my healing journey where I struggled with suicidal thoughts. Actually one of the memories I recovered was just how badly I wanted to die as a child because there seemed to be no other way out. Obviously not all of me did because I survived, for which I'm very grateful. But I do understand, and have a great deal of compassion, for being in places so dark and painful, that death can seem like the only way to relieve it. I am grateful that I had people to turn to during those times, including my sister and my first T. I was always careful to let both of them know when I was struggling as a hedge of protection. So I want to first tell you that I understand why you would have struggled with this and join you in urging anyone struggling with it to not give up and reach out for help. There's nothing to be ashamed of.

I have not had the experience of the rest of you of knowing someone who committed suicide. I'm sorry, it has to be very difficult to deal with.

The other reason I think this post is good JD is based on the training I just went through on the crisis line. Our line is certified as a suicide hotline and they spend two sessions on these types of calls although they comprise a very small percentage of the calls we receive. One thing they made CRYSTAL clear is that talking about suicide does NOT cause people to go ahead and do it. On the contrary, being open in discussing it, helps take away the shame so that someone who is thinking about killing themselves is able to talk about it and reach out for help. So this isn't a hurtful thing you're doing, it's going to be helpful for a lot of people many of whom you'll never know about.

And lastly, it's something you're struggling with and that makes it important to talk about.

I can understand why you both felt bad and felt closer for your T telling you this. My T has occasionally shared personal stories, some of them pretty intimate, about his own experiences, but just the way you described it. He was offering me something from his experience to help me understand mine. And it sounds like your T was doing the same thing. That comes from a place of care, and trust and intimacy, and of course that is welcome when it's someone important to you. On the other hand, it did allow you to see deeply into her emotions and needs surrounding the subject. We have to fight that desire to take care of our Ts at the best of times and knowledge like that can be a burden to a patient, even more so, because then you knew that something you were struggling with was difficult for her. So even though you might feel the need to talk about it, you would hesitate out of concern for her. But therapy is supposed to be the place where you're free to talk about anything and everything you need without having to worry about anyone else's needs, including your T's, so it's damaging. Ts walk a very fine line when they share from their own experience, but it can be incredibly powerful and healing when they do so for the patient's good. I believe that's probably where you're T was coming from. But knowing where things ended up with you with her, I also suspect that she was blind to some of her own emotional needs in this case, which led to her unconsciously using you to soothe herself. I know you really miss her, and it's painful and that's so understandable. It was a significant relationship and it's obvious that you took a lot of good along with the bad, but she can take care of herself and you need to take care of yourself. and right now I think that means giving yourself more time to heal from what happened with her before being in touch with her again.

And I definitely think you should discuss this with your present T. She won't freak out, she's trained to deal with this. I can honestly say that since the training I went through, suicide has become a much less scary subject for me.

((((JD, Starfish, and Jones)))) I'm sorry for your losses. JD, I love the thought of redeeming the day with friends, I hope that goes well for you.

AG

7/9/1011:01 AM

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doneMember

I agree that it's not necessary to take this post down. Please do leave it up.

I think this is something you do need to bring up with your current T. That's what she's there for. She may freak out or not, but that's not something she should let you see anyway.

I have mixed feelings about what your ex T told you. It seems too personal. She could have shared her experience, but described it as if it happened to another anonymous client or friend. I think telling you it was her husband was putting too much of herself and her issues in the room, and putting too heavy a burden on you.

I've known several people who committed suicide, the closest being my cousin who lived with us and was like my brother. It IS awful for the survivors, and I know it's important for all of us to remember that when we feel ourselves pulled in that direction. On the other hand, sometimes people can lay a lot of guilt on a person if they mention it at all, and this discourages people from talking about their suicidal thoughts. And I think not talking about it is more dangerous than talking about it.

I once hinted at feeling suicidal to my ex P; I said something about my kids would be better off without a mother than with a crazy depressed mother. And my P jumped all over me about it. He seemed really angry at me and said, "Do you really think that's true?! That your kids would be better off if you were dead?!" And I mumbled, no probably not. And I felt like he wanted to yell at me, "Then snap out of it! and shut up!" and that pretty much slammed the door on the whole conversation.

OK I hope I haven't veered too far off topic with that...

I can understand why you feel confused about what your old T shared. And I'm so sorry about the upcoming anniversaries. Talk to your current T about it and hopefully it will help.

7/9/1011:48 AM

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jillMember

i don't have anything to add but hugs to offer you in this situation. i think the advice given is so good, and particularly what ag said about talking about it being good, rather than 'giving ideas' away...i didnt know that.

i have learned so much from what you have said in so many posts, echo. thanks for stepping out there on this subject. it is enlightening. jill

7/9/102:03 PM

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macMember

First of all I definitely think you should tell your current T about it. If she is a good/well trained T then it shouldn’t freak her out at all.

Just like you said, you can’t take back the fact that she told you, but personally I don’t think it was appropriate. I would be so shocked if my T told me something like this, probably because he won’t answer the simplest questions like how old he is or if he has kids, (I did find out that he’s married but not because he told me) and I’ll bring up his wife occasionally but it’s not like he’s ever told me anything about her. So personally, I don’t believe that self-disclosure on the T’s part is ever helpful. But I do like what AG said about her T sharing personal stories, so it is different for different people.

I also hate the taboo-ness of suicide. Personal story- My aunt committed suicide and no one in my family will talk about it, or acknowledge that she was even alive. They are all very ashamed of her, and they lie to people and say that she died in the hospital of an “unknown disease”. Sorry, I don’t want to go into much more detail than that on the internet. Yes, talking about suicide is painful, but covering it up, lying, and pretending everything is okay is 10x more painful. So thank you for posting this, because yes, suicide is sad, but it needs to be discussed regardless.

Maclove

7/9/102:40 PM

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sunnyshineMember

That's great that you posted this. You shouldn't take it down. We are here for support and this is what you need support with. Like others have said it takes the "taboo-ness" out of suicide. So often it is considered shameful and many families cover it up. In order to work through something you need to discuss it.

I do think that, while I'm glad you felt the disclosure relevant, it was a bit too personal and inappropriate. I too have had periods of suicidal thoughts, it really is a horrible place to be and the feeling are extremely intense and scary.

I would have no problem mentioning this to your current T. They are there to help you and this is certainly something you need guidance on.

7/9/103:09 PM

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janedoeMember

Oh wow - thanks for the support everyone. I could respond to so many aspects of this... I just want to respond to one thing right now - talking about this subject.

I hesitate to talk about it because some people can respond awfully, and it can also be a hard issue for others, and the awful shame of it is hard for me. Thank you for reminding me how much this is something that shouldn’t be hidden and silenced.

Months before my old T shared with me, when I was struggling with the suicidal thoughts, my old T and I really talked about it. I knew that the last time I had wanted to die so badly that I had acted on it and I was scared of what I was thinking, yet so really believing it and so desperate. Talking about it with her really helped those thoughts never become actions. I even asked her, “have you ever been afraid to live?” (I know, maybe not the best thing to ask a T, but I did ask - and it would have been her job to not answer if it was a bad idea.) She said no, she had been afraid to die, but never afraid to live. I told her I was afraid to live. She said she was so sorry, the pain must be horrible, she didn’t know what that is like to not want to live, but she could understand deep pain and she knew what it was like to hurt really bad and think that there was no way this could be happening and no way to deal with all the pain…

She told me I was worth fighting for. She said that in time, it would be ok, the pain would get better. I don’t know how much I believed her, but the effort she made to connect and how she helped me see that I wasn’t alone and the fact it was safe to share those thoughts with her really helped me a lot.

It was then that a song Broken by Lifehouse started really echoing something in my soul about my relationship with my T (and in another way, about spiritual matters.) the music vid on you tube echo’s the theme of the value of life.

“I’m falling apart, barely breathing, with a broken heart, that’s still beating. In the pain, is there healing? ….and I’m hanging on, to the words you say, you said that I will be ok.”

It’s hard to let go of my old T. I’m learning to hang on to the fact that her words remain true even though she’s not in my life. The pain is still is miserable sometimes, but I am ok…

I could say so much about the shame of suicide… maybe later. (argh. my ‘shame monster’ needs to go away! I just keep finding more that it is feasting on. No more! Time for the shame to end! …if only it was that easy… sigh…)

AG-

quote:
One thing they made CRYSTAL clear is that talking about suicide does NOT cause people to go ahead and do it. On the contrary, being open in discussing it, helps take away the shame so that someone who is thinking about killing themselves is able to talk about it and reach out for help. So this isn't a hurtful thing you're doing, it's going to be helpful for a lot of people many of whom you'll never know about.

Thank you for saying this! Ya know, that is true for me. It did NOT make it at all more likely for me to do it or think about it when I talked about it with my T nor when my T talked about suicide of her husband. I hope this does help others…

Jones, dragonfly, echo, jill, Maclove, sunnyshine - thank you for what you have shared. It’s really helped my own heart a lot…

echo, jones, maclove - i am so sorry for your loss of those you cared about.

echo - the response of your ex-p was pretty mindless. that had to hurt. grr.

Maclove - oh I can't even start getting into it, but yeah, your family is not the only one who has responded with lies, silence, and shame. it makes me mad. your aunt deserved compassion and love. suicide is not a good option but that response doesn't help. i'm sorry they feel they need to hide it. that sucks.

7/9/103:24 PM

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janedoeMember

p.s. I did have an appointment with my T today -I did talk about my old T, and that by itself was a huge thing for me, but I couldn’t get the courage to quite say this. almost. words can be very hard for me to litterally speak if the subject is really close to my heart and emotional for me. I told her that at my appointment this next tuesday, there’s something really specific I have to talk to her about. I feel a lot more encouraged to talk with her about it after reading your responses. It reminded me that it is worth it to talk with her about this. Thank you so much.

7/9/103:28 PM

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