Oh, I think I would have a problem with that. Isn't it their job to validate and tell you that you are not crazy for feeling the way you do and to point out when your feelings are not normal as well???

Not sure what his school of thought is on that. Perhaps you can ask him?

emailed T#2 about how current T told me he doesn't normalize feelings and is this why I feel like a top spinning out of control? T#2 stressed previously that I need to make sure current T processes my trauma so it doesn't interfere so much with my life. And, so I also asked him about this. If I am not reacting to the demands of my life like a normal person and I need to do this first and foremost because of pressing financial need, how and when is a good time to process trauma?

T#2 said all were relevant concerns and he wants to meet with me again to discuss. Even though it hurts a lot to go through this process of questioning my T, it sure feels empowering to do it, whether or not I eventually leave him or stay with him. I am actually learning more about myself this way, in a sense.

wow, are you ever in my boat! sometimes two t's feel like mom versus dad.

normalizing. hmmmm.

y'no, i agree that eventually we have to do this, but i DO think patterning that is helpful.

talked to pa about processing trauma. he is not a big believer in recylcing it all. but he says one needs to be able to stare truth in the eye, and not be afraid of it. to explore what it's effect, the trauma, has had. to process guilt/innocence. to RE-evaluate our 'signature' on the trauma...example, what one might consider 'i was asking for it' may actually be 'date rape'. to look at it as whatever that truth might be. to be able to forgive ourself and others, if desired. to not let the anger/rage be alive anymore.

so, he said there is no 'magic' formula. some trauma processing can just be more trauma.

he is old school.

main thing i got, is you have achieved 'it' when you can stare truth in the eye and not quake.

i'm not there, by the way.

quaking, if i dare peek!! jill

jill,

what do you mean by patterning being helpful? I think it's going to get confusing for me because I am getting the sense from T#2 that he thinks that current T is not up on the latest research, etc., and is practicing old school stuff. And that he thinks current T may just not be the right T for me because I'm too sensitive. He didn't say it that way. I'm phrasing it that way. I think current T is giving me tough love.

Still had a shitty week. I told T2 this. I think he thinks that I should be functioning better. When I tell current T how bad I'm functioning he tells me I'm more functional than I think I am. I felt like I should have been committed this week.

What do you mean, eventually have to do this? Question our T's? If they are right for us? I guess it's like questioning a parent, eh? And then you can grow from there?

liese. patterning. like, pa said something about 'arguing', this was awhile back. but, he said a patient once commented on how big his shoes were. he felt a bit self-conscious (they are big) but instead of what i would do, he said, "yes, you are right". i learned from that. so, altho that is a bit indirect, and he explained his point through a story, it stuck. or, today, i said something about hating everyone and always having an on-going dialouge internally about how dumb they are but being too 'nice' to confront it, so i just 'take' it. he said you can, instead of arguing, which just makes the other person defensive, you can say 'i see it differently' in a nice tone and go on to explain your point.

they also do this in pragmatics, like once i cancelled on him, i was upset, couldn't think, the next time i saw him, i was afraid he would be mad. but, he said, you CAN cancel, or reschedule, and talked through some options on how i could approach that next time. and i did once, and neither of us commmented on it, but i did it the way he mentioned and didn't HAVE to feel guilty and 'bad' for rescheduling.

i have this thing about 'being a burden on others'...so, i feel i can not ever ask, or i'll get deserted. so, he is helping me learn to ask without DEMANDING. to approach things in a way that doesn't make the other defensive. and alot of the time i learn it through his stories.

really, he is a grand old man. the perfect grandpa for a child.

he was a bit too chatty today, but, i was off a bit, too, worrying about her, and wondering if i should talk to him about it. but, i won't. i just can't. and i think i am ok, thanks to y'all.

not to steal your thread, but, possibly i have!!

regarding 'functioning'. i feel like he always thinks i am healthier than i do, but, perhaps he is right. my parents always treated me like a loser, so, maybe that is the problem , and not me. altho he is supportive when i am low.

perhaps t sees what you can't see. i know i am a bit hysterical, and sometimes that soothing way pulls me to the middle. i have to support what they see, and, assuming you think t knows you well enough, believe him and relax into it.

i know dbt gal thought i was pretty nutty, and i did not fail to disappoint that notion! so, perhaps that is his angle. that is appropriate psychology with an hysteric. but not someone who IS less functional.

i've kind of quite arguing with him that i am borderline. he doesn't believe it. and, somehow, altho my ups are high and lows are low, i am black and white, etc. maybe i'll bellieve him one day.

i have been a thin line from the hospital at times, too. has t seen those times for you, liese??

i do think some 'push back' is needed with a t. i probably don't push him, certainly not like i pushed dbt gal, but, he doesn't provoke me, either.

i do think questioning is good, and one can't be afraid of their t. respectful is great if you can swing it, but, they should be able to withstand the blow of our tough places at times.

ramble ramble, jill

Monte and Jill,

Was just fantasizing about going away for awhile and coming back stressfree. I told T I wanted him to send me away because I don't emote in therapy. I never break down and cry and scream, this has been an awful week. I sit there prim and proper. So I needed him to understand how awful this internal battle inside me is. I think he's trying to kill my white swan and she's dying a slow and painful death.

My T says I'm not borderline either, just traits. I've always liked that he's so optimistic and tells me I'm normal. But since I feel like shit this week, I want him to acknowledge how hard it is for me!!

Jill, I did ask T this week if there's any kind of progress to go from being depressed to being anxious or vice versa and his opinion was no. That it's progress to be angry instead of depressed. Just his opinion.

I didn't really understand what normalizing feelings was all about. But TN picked up on the fact that he is not normalising my feelings. Smart girl. And that's why I'm so out of control. Maybe I will ask him this week why he doesn't normalize feelings. Maybe I will push him a little. It'll be interesting to hear what T2 has to say.

I wonder Jill if that was your problem with DBT gal. maybe she wasn't normalizing your feelings either. maybe that's why you felt so crazy with her. maybe pa normalizes your feelings? just wondering.

Mentally I feel okay, even good. But there's just this pain or this grief in my chest area. And I can't get rid of it. I don't know how to. That part of me wants to curl up into a ball.

quote:

My T told me a month or more ago that he doesn't normalize. Not part of his therapy. Is that normal? Is that why I feel like a top spinning out of control with him?

Is his goal in not normalizing my feelings to get me to do it myself and validate myself???

Oh Liese, this really makes me concerned for you. Why does he not normalize your feelings? Is it against his own beliefs of therapy? I don't understand why a T would not try to normalize or if he can't normalize then discuss with you in detail why it's pathological instead of normal. My T teases me that I see pathology in everything. He calmly points out that some of my reactions, feelings and emotions are perfectly normal in consideration of my past history.

One example... when I tell him I feel crazy because I want to see him so badly and then when I get there I feel like I need to flee. He says I'm not crazy and ANYONE would feel that way since I've just been badly betrayed and abandoned by a T on top of having emotional abandonment as a child. He says if I didn't feel this way he would be concerned. So I feel more normal and comfortable with my reactions and are able to look at them more closely and talk about these feelings as they play out in our relationship.

Another example... when I tell him I shouldn't cry over oldT, that I shouldn't care because he was so cruel to me. My T validates my pain and the confusion of my still loving feelings towards my oldT by saying that he understands how important the relationship was to me, even though it ended up in such a painful place but it's still okay to miss him and miss the relationship. That I need time to grieve and I can talk about it anytime. He does not make me feel slightly insane for loving someone who traumatized me.

There is no way you can validate yourself. Validation by it's very nature is something that comes from another person. Just as we cannot learn to have self-esteem by ourselves. We come to know ourselves through our relationship with other people... significant other people especially... like a parent or a T. We learn about who we are by what is reflected back to us (Kohut's mirroring) by our caregivers.

So if your T does not believe in or do normalizing then how does he heal his patients?? How does he help them understand their feelings and emotions. Does he tell them to just not feel that way?

In trauma and attachment therapy the first step is to educate your client about their symptoms and reactions and explain how it all works in therapy. Then comes the building of the trusting and safe relationship. This is most important. This is where you discuss the relationship with your T while it's playing out live in the therapy room. You talk about how you relate, how you feel when he says this or does that. You tell him what helps and what hurts. You test him and his knowledge, consistency, boundaries etc. Once you deem him safe enough you may start with the discussion of trauma but before really discussing the trauma itself you need to be well versed in how to cope with the fallout of discussing highly emotional issues that may snowball into deeper depression, shame, rage, numbing, self-injury, medicating, increased dissociation etc. Coping skills are important. In my case I can beep him anytime, call his cell, email him, turn to a trusted friend who understands, post here, call my sister, journal, etc. All of these are outlets for the unbearable affects that rise up when revealing trauma.

Once you are at this point you can deeply discuss the trauma and by telling it ... and more than once... you will begin to proces it. Telling it to your T who should be able to help you contain the emotions and "normalize" your reactions to the trauma will help you process it. You then integrate it and eventually it loses it's power over you and your life.

I think that this all takes a lot of time and effort and work by both parties. I think it's important to have a T who understand and values the therapeutic relationship above all else and is NOT afraid of the attachment feelings that the client will begin to form to him/her. The T needs to remain boundaried and consistent and available for reassurance.

Liese I am concerned that your current T has no understanding of what is needed and/or involved in helping someone with attachment injury and trauma/abuse history. I cannot be sure and maybe the only way to find out is to really question him closely about this. I wish I had done this with my oldT but I didn't know I had c-ptsd and attachment injury until I was a year into it and then I was so attached I couldn't leave. But I had no idea how staying with him would damage me and cause me so much pain.

I was very careful when looking for a new T and questioned them thoroughly about attachment. My current T was very comfortable with the idea that I would attach to him, hoped it would happen and encourages it and loves talking about it... has no fear of it. This was the overriding factor in my chosing him as my new T.

I know you feel stressed over all of this and I hope you can get some good answers from your T or even T2 to help you make a decision about which road you take next.

All the best
TN

Hi Liese,
When I read the titled of your post I thought to myself “Normal for him”. I can’t really say that it’s not normal because every therapy and every therapist and every client and every client & therapist’s relationship is different. I think a better question would probably be, “My T says he doesn’t normalize. Is that what I want from therapy?” And it seems like the answer is no, just from what I’ve read. Also, FWIW I think you are doing everything perfectly with questioning your T and consulting with another. Sorry you’ve been having such a hard time.....

Mac

Aw Liese, that's hard for you. It does help enormously to hear someone, especially your T, tell you that what you experience is normal for so many reasons; not least because you've probably never come across someone who feels the same as you and believe you must be the only person in the world to experience or feel a certain way. The relief of my T telling me what I was feeling and going through was normal, was enormous. We have a deal that she will never lie to me or tell me something is ok if it's not - obvious, but really helpful to have clarified - recently I asked her if something was normal and she replied that it wasn't. Yikes, bit scary to hear, but I kind of knew that anyway, BUT she was able to say why it wasn't normal and how in the circumstances it was very understandable and ok and what we could do about it too.

I totally agree with TN, you cannot validate yourself, you need the stability and experience of a T to do that for you. We have no benchmarks other than ourselves, I value T's opinion to guauge my own experiences and change my self beliefs. Herr reassurance and explanations that I was normal was vital in the time when I really couldn't see it for myself.

Sorry that this is so hard for you, are you able to challenge T a bit on this? Hugs Liese,

starfish

liese. i think dbt gal did normalize my feelings, however, she normalized it for 'bpd people'...so, my 'normal' was still axis II. not a great place to be, if one can help it. she 'normalized' the fact that i would have to always be on anti-depressants, that THAT would be my normal. she may be right. he doesn't think so.

too, the anxiety/depression chicken/egg deal. i did ask dr. pa, he still didn't directly answer that, altho he said some people have 'anxious depression' and that at least i DON'T seem to have that. so, i don't think he is avoiding telling me something i don't want to hear, i think, more, there is just no real answer. no hidden agenda, i don't believe. just a non-issue. deal with the presenting symptom.

one thing t's have said, when i have felt great guilt for 'evil' thoughts, is, welcome to the human race. i think i thought that these thoughts proved my bad core. but pa is really teaching me that we ALL have fantasies. thoughts. we don't ACT on all these thoughts, and that the actions are what separate us from bad people. and that denying or surpressing the thoughts just build up fury in our unconsciuos that leads to anxiety and depression. so, let the thoughts flow.

he told me an old prof told him, in supervising an analyst, that the analyst was having erotic transference toward the analysand. and, i forget the quote, but the supervisor basically said to enjoy it...or course not to act on it, but to enjoy that energy.

i think that is some of why i enjoy men. i like the energy between us. positive ions? i don't act on it, and really, i don't feel sexual towards dr. pa, but, just a smile in my soul that generates positive feelings when i am with him.

i am curious about your comment that men have screwed you as much as women. i will have to ponder that. you may be on to something that i have denied for myself. dang the wisdom out here on the forum!!

jill

You know, I think he does normalize. If I go in and I am stressed out about something, he's very caring and talks me through it. when I tell him how attached I am to him, he reassures me it's okay. when i tell him that i'd rather come see him than talk to my H, he tells me that's okay. So, he must do it. I may be taking his statement out of context. I think he was talking about reliving the trauma, now that I think about it. I just feel like questioning him is like questioning my Dad, which of course equaled loss of love. I "know" this but it doesn't make it any easier for me to ask for what I want or question him about the trauma because there is that deep wound there. Maybe that's why it hurts so much.

TN, have you already started to do the process work with your T?

Thanks for your support. As a very wise person said, what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. I actually think going through this process of questioning him and is he meeting my needs is all very healthy. It's actually kind of hard to do for me since I never "think" about my needs and don't have a clue as to what they might be. What would make me comfortable in the therapy room? Sunglasses.

Jill, Up until 4 years ago, I would have thought that my mother was the cause of all my problems but my last therapist made a comment, something about the parent you think hurt you didn't as much as you think and the parent you love hurt you in a way that you don't realize. something like that. and, she also said my father was my attachment figure. i do know that i would have done cartwheels and backhandsprings for that man, even if it killed me. I would have done anything to get his attention. dad, do you think i can XXXX? silence. He just thought I was a big loser. I know that he thought that because he didn't have confidence in himself. I was also closer to my brother than my sister but my brother is the one who used to beat me. He makes unreasonable demands, has a bad temper and says mean things. But I "loved" him more than my sister. He was charming.

I still haven't developed that reflective capacity or the ability to mentalize, which are all supposed to be really essential in recovery. Ohhhhh, I wish those new neurons would grow.

My sister was really mean too but she didn't have that charming side. But at least my relatiionship with her was honest and full of mistrust, which is exactly as it should have been. My brother on the other hand was like a "frenemy". Charming but deceptive. And very very hurtful.

quote:

TN, have you already started to do the process work with your T?

Oh.. gosh.. NO Liese. I don't know him well enough yet. The only processing we are doing is with regard to the abandonment by my oldT. And the reason we are doing that is because I cannot move on from it to do anything else at this point. How can I trust my new T when I'm still traumatized by the abandonment of oldT? How can I focus on my old traumas when my mind won't even go there because the new trauma and the horrible grief are blocking everything else.

The most important step in all of this is establishing trust and safety with the T. To define the frame of the therapy work you will be doing down the line. The processing is almost the last thing you do in the therapy time line. What comes after that would probably be the growth part and how your life is expanding because the old traumas have been integrated. I think you may be trying to process trauma without having all the first steps in place. It's obvious to me you are truly tryng to feel safe and to trust your T but you don't. You can't jump over the steps of complex trauma therapy or it causes all sorts of problems you don't need.

I think you need to challenge your T on a lot of things and get the answers you need to hear in order to feel safe. My T says that after 2 years we will just be getting to know each other. He does not push or rush it. It would not work anyway and he understands that.

I'm so sorry your siblings were so horrible to you and that you were missing your Dad's attention. My Dad was very uninvolved in our lives... he didn't even know who I was. I never got feedback or direction or applause. This was what was so important that my oldT gave to me so well. He didn't understand attachment theory but he was doing it with me instinctively. But he lost belief in himself and in US to continue the very good work we were doing and that is the ultimate tragedy of our relationship.

Question... when your T normalizes does he just say that's normal or does he explain it or use examples etc? Just curious. In discussing all of this on the Board I am becoming more aware of certain behaviors of both my Ts and the differences between them so it's very helpful.

I hope you are in a good place today and can get some things done at home to help you feel better.

Take care,
TN

Hey everyone, Thanks for inputing. I just wish I had as much insight into myself as you do UV. Though, maybe we are getting there. It's taken me three years to let myself get close to my T and in those first three years, he was almost perfect the entire time. But I agree with you that in order to grow we have to be able to tolerate some anxiety and also said this to my T recently, and he agreed. I have also been thinking that he's been giving me tough love. I guess I just wish I could hold onto that caring side of him more when he gives me the tough love.

AG, try not to take UV's comment to heart. I for one know I need to change if I'm going to attract nice people and friends into my life. I will share with you something I did last year that I am not proud of but also that I know isn't going to win me any friends. And, yes, I could say it's from my injuries but at the end of the day, if I don't control myself or learn to control myself, I will not be able to meet my own goal of making nice friends or in helping my kids make nice friends. So last year, my 11 year old wasn't invited to a bday party of a girl in her class, a girl she liked. A lot of the other girls were invited. A girl in my daughter's class told her about all the parties she hadn't been invited to. ouch. it hurt. the day of the party came and went. A mother of one of the girls who was invited called me the day after the party, knowing that my daughter wasn't invited, knowing that I was upset that she wasn't invited and proceeded to tell me all about the party and who was there. She herself was upset because her daughter is shy and wouldn't interact with the others at the party. So she was kind of calling to commiserate but ... still .... anyway, so I just lost it. I called the mother of the girl who had the party and very nicely asked her if there had been a problem, that my daughter considered her daughter a friend. Anyway, I realize that this is not very positive behavior and not the message I want to send out to the world. I quickly wrote her a note, apologized for calling her and decided I had to let it go. If I'm not mistaken, maybe UV is talking about things like that really work against what I really want: nice intimate relationships.

UV, he has confidence in his ability to treat me. Says he has helped people like me before in the past with success, which is why I am trying to hold on. I read with interest the article about phase oriented treatment for people with cptsd and it made so much sense to me. The first phase if working on the phobia of getting attached to the therapist and then the phobia of losing the therapist. I see that's what's been going on for three years. Anyway, I just wish he and I would have an intellectual discussion about it all. It would make it easier to stay if he said, okay, right now it's your EP who wants to run. Although he did say recently, that if I leave him, I'll repeat the same pattern with the next therapist so I guess it's kind of close but we just haven't gotten to my actual patterns yet.

Actually, I think my T has been really gentle with me for three years and Is just getting prickly now. I know that he and I haven't even touched the surface. I think he was being gentle because he knew I couldn't handle it. In addition to whatever childhood trauma I had and the date rape, my adult life in the past 6 years has also had some traumatic events, including serious FOO issues and problems. The shit hit the proverbial fan after my Dad died. He was the one we were all in denial for so once he died, everyone's true feelings came out and we weren't quite the happy family my mother thought we were. My Dad was the only one I felt safe with in my house and loved my Dad but I've been able to begin to regain my life since he died.

My whole life looks like one big traumatic event after another. When I went into therapy, I was in crisis. So I think T had to be supportive. Now, I do kind of trust him but it is still difficult for me to hold that caring vision of him when I hurt inside and it "feels" like something he did or said. We are chipping away at it. And, it can't be a bad idea to consult because it's actually making me feel less dependent upon him and more secure in the world to know that there is someone else out there who can help me if I need it.

The only negative comment T2 made about current T is that when you do surgery you want to use a sharp knife, not a blunt knife. I just wish I could see what they see. T2 knew immediately what current T was up to.

The other interesting thing T2 said was that current T is using the relationship to perpetuate my growth but that they don't teach therapy that way anymore. that makes sense to me because from my point of view using the relationship makes me doubt his trustworthiness.

UV, where do you get all your good information from? I really struggle to understand all this stuff. I find it fascinating but hard to understand. How do you know that your T regularly checks himself for countertransference?

I read somewhere that the success of the therapy is more dependent upon the relationship between thetherapist and theclient than thetype of therapy they actually do. having space bar troubles!!!

Hello??? I've been hijacked ... but that's okay ... really. So, ya, it's been an interesting experience, this therapy thing. Was that a really bad example I used of negative behavior whne I called that mom? Afterall, I was just expressing myself. And it does piss me off when people exclude kids from parties. Ouch ...my feelings are so tender. My T tells me I have to get over it, that people do mean things all the time. I have to choose what I am going to do next, which is exactly what AG said about bumping up against a boundary. And, so why is it all so painful? Who really cares about not being invited to a birthday party or not? Well, because it's about acceptance by your peers. That's why it bothers me.

lots of insight here.

liese, the birthday party thing??

those things really rock my boat, especially when my KIDS are hurt.

i like ag's metaphor. it is a good one to recall. and the 'ego strenth' term IS useful.

liese, i believe we will get there. and, in the process, learn alot of valuable lessons to teach our children what and how they need to know in handling these bumps.

i learn so much about parenting through all this...seeing what i never learned, and helping my children, i pray, learn these things sooner than i did.

too, the calling the mom. i know i have done that, but my usual way is to retreat. i don't know the answer, but, sadly, i think i am learning that honesty is not always the best policy. someone please correct this opinion, it is just my lousy, scorned, hurt, two cents. and i know it just supports retreating.

i think, coz TOO much emotion is involved in my communication. if i could tamper that, i think honesty could be effective.

hugs to ya, girl. the birthday party thing really stings. jill

Thanks Jill, that birthday party was LAST year...but there was an even worse situation this year. We actually WALKED in on a birthday party in progress in a restaurant in the mall. It was a girl on my daughter's soccer team and most of the soccer team was there. It was really embarrassing.

After we left the mall and went to dinner somewhere else, I can honestly say that I don't know how upset I was about her not being invited to the party per se just wondering "why" she's not being invited. It was the fourth bday party that someone had on her soccer team in a one month period. I always intellectualize and worry about my kids not being accepted by their peers. At what point do I worry about that if not being invited to a bday party is something all kids go through?????

I did feel really bad about calling that Mom. I haven't done it that often or ever. That other Mom set me off and actually she was the one I was pissed off at because she knew I felt bad that my daughter wasn't invited and she called to tell me all about the party and who was there, etc. I thought she was being really insensitive. I actually thought she was calling me to use me as a salve: she was upset because her daughter is shy and she wouldn't skate with the rest of the girls at the party. I should have told her that I didn't want to hear it. When will I learn?

AG, I like your hemophiliac example also.

I have nothing to add but just want to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the replies and I hope that it doesn't get moved to a private message. This is a very eye-opening dialogue that has really got me thinking, and that is a good thing.

HeyLG,Just a short reply here. Anything that gets me thinking is ALWAYS a good thing!! LOL!!!

And,I'm just teasing y'all (from my days as a Texas) about hijacking my thread. I've hijacked myshare of threads. I was just getting nervous that things were getting a little too personal. I don't think anyone meant any harm.

Actually UV, I'd like to takeissue withyour use ofthe word objective. Because what you found on psych central about therapists red flags was objective. But, as you found, it was too objective and too rigid. It didn't take into consideration the strengths of the therapist or the needs of the client. I can see though how different I am now,though, as opposed to when I first started therapy. I was really a mess and very vulnerable and could have been taken advantage of in a big way. I'm still a mess but at least I know I'm a mess now. S, starting out, that list might be a good guideline, depending on the particular situation. T2 seems really on top of his field, knowledgewise but his office is disorganized, he's not punctual. I don't know if I would have had the guts to say something about his punctuality to him when Iwas first startingtherapy. But if I do decide to work with him, Imight have to address it simply because ofmy schedule. With four kids, I can't get so off-schedule because he's so off-schedule. He writes beautiful emails though now that I've told him how nice his emails were, he has stopped saying nice things in his emails and only responds in a businesslike manner. I think I'll take it up with him this week. It's kind of fun having two therapists. Current T has been with me throughout the mess of my life the last 3 years.

So sorry about your high school experience. My health teacher in high school said that he actually admired girls who didn't have abortions and who had their babies. And that was 30 years ago. He also made sure to tell us that he hoped he wasn't influencing anyones decisions. I, too, think you were very strong and brave to do what you did. But I also understand how difficult it must have been to feel like a different standard was applied to you. Us humans, we can be so mean and unloving toward one another,huh?

Having kids has really highlighted all my insecurities and hurts. It's been very difficult although if I didn't havekids Idon't think Iwould have this opportunity to heal. (My darn spacebar.)

My T's training is CBt but I have been with himnow over 3 years and he rarely gives homework assignments. AT the endof the summer or early fall he told me that I can stay with him for as long as I want. It was music to my ears because I hadn't made the progress in my life I wanted to make. He said that's what therapy should be. So who knows what kind of therapist he is??? It was music to my ears for a little while but then I started to feel trapped and wanted to run again. Oh, the joy of being me. It's so much fun. Not.

Sometimes I wonder if he tells me he doens't know what things are because he wants to me 1) get angry with him and say, what the heck kind of therapist are you?; 2) doesn't want me to intellectualize; 3) wants to see how much I know. On the other hand, it's entirely possible he doesn't know what it means and I would find that rather scary because it's all right there with the borderline stuff. It's one of their core defense mechanisms.

Take good care of yourself while you checkout. Do some stargazing. I'm also sensitive to being ostracized, which is why I have trouble with my kids and not being invited to bday party stuff. Been ostracized and keep repeating that goddamn pattern. hurts too much to let good people in. if i could let go of the hurt and learn to laugh.

(((HUGS)))

Liese

P.S. ZELIG WAS A BORDERLINE!!!!

AG,
I‘m sorry you feel accused of ostracizing someone – and I don’t know if it is good for me to step in here but for some reason I just want to say I don’t read that anyone has accused you of that at all.

I have been reading along and I have really liked this thread. I did see that along the way, you felt concern, expressed it, and then UV addressed it... I took from what she wrote about being ostracized is general struggle to sensitivity to it, not specific to you or the forum. (But UV, maybe I understand wrong what you are feeling?)

I also took from her that she is not running away but will be back. I see maybe there could be some tension in the thread, but respectful dialogue about it, and not really about you.

I think I see UV and Liese and you all expressing different viewpoints and it all seems ok to me.

I’m super glad you are sharing how it feels to you instead of not saying anything. Tone and tension and feelings sometimes can be lost or misinterpreted when the communication is only by writing – I miss things all the time, and I might be doing it here. I am not speaking for UV or Liese, and don't mean to imply anything about their perspectives, just my own. Maybe they feel more than they are communicating or not, or I am missing the boat on it. It's for them to express and clarify.

I just want to reassure you, if I can, that I don’t see you being ostracizing of anyone or rejecting, let alone in an evil way. I say that because of what I know of you in general, and also by what you specifically wrote here too.

You are a kind soul, and that is known, regardless if people agree or not with your ideas. Even if someone does need a break and will check back in later... it's them, managing their stuff... and I know it's super easy to say to be kind to yourself, and much harder to do. You didn't do anything disrespectful or attacking. You were honest, and even if it hit someone the wrong way, it happens. And I don't think anyone feels reject by you, not by what they have said here. I'm sure I post things at times that people can't handle entirely or rub people the wrong way. It feels bad when it happens, I never mean to hurt anyone, and you don't either. It's the balance of being free to post and being free to feel like our own stuff gets triggered by another's post or like it's too much.

I'm glad for you sharing something that is clearly rubbing you the wrong way. I hope people do feel free to do that and work out stuff like this when it comes up here.

I hope this is of some reassurance until UV and Liese can clarify what they meant to you.

many hugs dear AG,
jane

UV, oh we cross posted. Thanks for clarifying. AG might just be triggered too by something that she is just misunderstanding. It happens to all of us.

Thanks for the really interesting threads and about sorting out Ts and normalization. It's really made me think and I can relate to a lot of what's been posted.

Glad you are taking a break to back off from feeling overwhelmed about the subject and being worn out from it all.

Take care of you and see you around when you get back!

AG,

I didn't post last night because I kind of figured that things needed to die down a bit. UV's and Jane's posts should have cleared up the confusion. IMO we all get triggered and misread things. God knows I've done it. Thanks for apologizing. Hope things look a little brighter today. I heard it's going to be 50 degrees here today. Don't know if it's true.

((((HUGS))))

Liese

Hey AG,

Hope you're getting some warmer weather up there in Syracuse!