quote:

Yes he does come highly recommended and in fact is someone who is not taking new clients but is willing to make room for me because this other T (who is well known for her work with Marsha Linehan) has asked him to see me. She tells me that he has a great sense of humor. That is dry and that he is very caring.

turtle... this is VERY good. A great sign. My T only takes referrals and is always fully booked. A sense of humor is important as well as him being a caring person.

I think the tears are you feeling hopeful and seeing that someone cares (already) enough about you to make room for you in his schedule because you are important.

As for the visuals... women judge other women even more harshly on how they look and can be very catty so it's not only one gender that uses visuals. I think rather than judge your outside he would be much more interested in getting to know the real turtle and her insides. What she thinks and feels. If he is kind, funny, caring and nurturing then I do not think you will have any issues with attaching to him because those are reasons we attach.

Aside from this...I think it would be worth exploring at some point why you would think you have to be a Barbie doll to deserve love and attention from a male (I'm not talking romantic love here, just care).

I think this is all very exciting and a great opportunity for a new beginning. This could truly be life changing....

Hugs
TN

((((Turtle)))) I want to agree with TN that a highly recommended T who is not taking new patients but is willing to fit you in, is a really good thing. Fully booked Ts tend to be experienced people who are very good at practicing the art of therapy and for what you are going through, experience is a huge asset.

I wanted to chime in here because I have seen both a female and male T and have had good experiences with both. But I also think it was crucial for me to work with a male therapist. Although (not to be too confusing) a good T is a good T and comes in both genders.

My first T was a woman which I think because my father was my abuser, helped me feel safer. I recovered the memories of the abuse while working with her and received a lot of support and affirmation. I'm not good at intimacy with either gender but I think in the beginning it was easier to learn to move closer to a woman. She also had similar issues in her own life, so I really felt I could trust her to understand. When she retired, I took some time off from individual therapy (my husband and I were going to couples counseling with my current T) but then started seeing my current T through a weird set of circumstances (if you're really interested, there's a post on my blog about it: The Beginning Part I).

I don't think I would ever have worked with a man if I had not first learned to trust him in couples' counseling. But I think that working with a male has brought up a lot of issues that were easy to sidestep working with a woman. My T has very clear, strong boundaries but is emotional available, very warm and compassionate and caring. He can also be tough as nails. Because of being so violated by my dad, I had a lot of issues involved in my relationships with men, especially revolving around boundaries, trust and the use of power. Working with a man has bumped me into them so to speak and allowed me to do a lot of good work. Erotic transference (OK having the hots for my therapist ) has also been an important factor in our work. I eroticize most of my relationships with men cause Dad taught me that was how I "paid" for whatever care I received. It has been so healing to move closer to a man who is clear about not violating me or using me at all (frustrating and confusing at times also). I have learned a lot about my attitudes about myself and beliefs about my worth and my attractiveness that I'm not sure I would have learned if I continued to work with a woman.

As for your fears, please believe I understand and share them but part of what has been important for me is that my T has made it clear that I am accepted for exactly who I am and my worth and my mattering does not depend on how I look or what I do. He has literally commented on my appearance twice in seven years. The first time he made the comment that I must have gotten a lot of sun on vacation because I was very tan. And the second was because I was literally in a sequined dress, high heels and seriously sparkly jewelry because as soon as I left the session I had to drive three hours to a wedding and there would be time to change. He said, and I quote "you look nice." I am the last person in the world to believe someone would be physically attracted to me, but even if my T was, it wouldn't make a bit of difference, he takes his responsibility to me too seriously. But he has been very accepting of my feelings for him and very comfortable discussing them. I joke about it and would never do it but if I showed up for a session and stripped naked, I swear the man would very calmly ask me to get dressed then ask me to talk about why I felt the need to take my clothes off.

It has been incredibly powerful to learn what a real man looks like and how he behaves and to know I am safe with him. My dearest wish is that I could have had him as my father (something I have told him) but since that isn't possible, I am very glad he's my therapist. So I guess I'd have to come down on the side of working with a male might be a very good thing.

I am really really glad that you are looking for someone to heal with you deserve that.

xx AG

You make a lot of very valid points, AG.

turtle let us know what you decide. I really do hope you decide to see him.

Hugs
TN

ok i am thinking about this and will get back to you as i decide what to do. I just have to think. You all bring up very good points. I just don't know if i can trust a man.

One time a long time ago. (over 20 years ago) I lived in a half way house. I had come out of an abusive family and the depression was debilitating. I was physically weak from it. There as a male counselor there who I got to know very well. We would stay up and watch movies together and we talked together a lot. He was a really cool guy. Jet back curly hair and a great beard and mustache. Beautiful brown eyes and an engaging personality. I left the home and months later came back. He asked if i wanted to go out for coffee. I was thrilled. Sure I said. Long story short by the end of the night he was groping me and trying very hard to have sex with me. His hands down my pants etc. I remember thinking "Now I know that all men are untrustworthy" Because I saw him as such a great guy who changed my mind about my sick father etc. But when it came down to brass tacks he was simply using me.

I have to think....

(((Turtle)))

I am sorry that the counselor treated you like that. I hope that you can challenge your view of all men as untrustworthy so you will have a greater number of potential therapists that you can work with to heal.

Turtle...how are you doing? Thinking of you.

TN

I am sorry. I feel I am being negligent here not coming back here more. This is a very hard topic. You see am not attracted to men. I mean I don't hate men or anything. I have been hurt by men and that is why I hesitate. I so appreciate what you said Attachment girl and TN and Draggers and annonymously, incognito and RM. Oh and Blu too! Really all of you. I guess I am waiting to hear back now from the group T to see what she says.

(((Turtle)))
I don't feel like I'm in a good place w/my therapy to make any comments on your decision, I'd never do that. But I think you know what is best for you & what feels reasonable for you to work w/ & be comfortable. So proud of you for taking all these steps & moving on.
You're in my thoughts so much!!
Mudddd

Is it possible you could try him out, so you can stay in group, and let him know in the first session that you're not sure you can deal with working with a man, and if that is the case and it doesn't work out, would he being willing/able to refer you to a female therapist? That way, up front, you don't feel stuck there. If I were a T, I would appreciate that sort of honesty, combined with the willingness to try. Just an idea. I'd understand if you just can't. In the beginning, I said no way to a female therapist H's T (now my T) tried to refer me to. Just...couldn't do it. I've seen her in the office and she seems nice, but when we talked on the phone briefly about rates issues, my negative transference was off the charts.

Okay weirdness prevails!! OMG

Okay so today I got a couple of emails from people I do not recognize. I deleted one and then read the other. Get this. It was an email from one of my T's friends. But it was not to me. It was to my T. And this was an email with a long string of responses since last June or so. They were trying to arrange getting together to talk about a book they had been reading. At first I had no idea what it was but then I saw that my T had been responding. I then went back into the deleted email and sure enough it was a similiar situation. One of her clients had emailed her but I got the email as well. I am like "What the hell?" I only read a little bit. Not much at all. But enough. I figured my T needed to know what was going on because this seems like a virus to me. I sent her a message and she got back to me faster than she ever had. Asked me to forward the messages so she could see which ones they were. I did that. I told her that I thought she had a virus. (Keep in mind I have not heard from her since she dumped me) She thanked me for telling her about this and asked if I would delete the messages I got. I said I would do that. I told her I was having a hard time and thinking of not doing therapy anymore. She said she hopes that I continue to seek treatment. But then went on to ask me more about the messages. She seems to think that she sent me the emails by accident. I tried to get her to understand that I was getting these messages from her friends not her. I have no idea if she ever came to understand that. I am concerned now that the stuff I emailed may be sent out to other people's email boxes.

It set off a lot of pain for me. I wanted so badly to reach to her through this technical email talk and say "Wow you're addressing me. Can I talk to you? etc" well that didn't really happen. It was clear her focus was on damage control. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH

Oh shit. Now I am crying again. Ouch ouch ouch

This wont help your feelings Turtle, but its very clear to me you have a hell of a lot more integrity than your T will ever have.

Awe (((MUff))) you're so sweet.

What Muff said.

((((Turtle))))

(((turtle)))
that sounds really tough on top of everything!!...
and muff is totally right. she doesnt deserve you and she never did. you deserve so much better. keep fighting, you are doing great.

puppet

quote:

Originally posted by Monte:
That is just awful Turtle. It is not fair, not ethical. I would be feeling utterly abandoned and rejected and full of despair.

Not sure where each of us can find hope in our deepest despair, it seems to be in different places for different people, but it is there to be found. I think sometimes we seek it and hold onto without even realizing we are doing it, almost unconsciously, like human instinct kicking in because it is attracted to hope, needs hope for survival and will always somehow find that tiniest sliver , y'know? Reaching out here I guess is an act of hope. I will pray for you today, for hope and some moments of peace.

Monte

It is absolutely unethical. No therapist is to abandon their clients instead they are to go to full lengths to no do this and refer out if necessary. That is the ethical thing to do...Hope this helps...how sad!

Thank you everyone. TN thank you for your continued concern. Thank you AG for your very thoughtful reply and your struggle with working with a male T. Thank you Monte for your prayers and Kmay for the hug and in transition for the support. Muff for the validation. All of you have been great.

I heard from the male T today. He seemed nice. He said he wanted to meet me and see how it went. He said if he pisses me off in our first session he'd understand if I moved on.

I had another apt with a female T at another place and I have been waiting for that apt for two weeks. her staff suddenly contacts me and cancels the apt and says she can't see me as a T. I emailed her and asked her why that was and she said there as a conflict of interest. That surprised me given that she doesn't know me. I have no idea why she would think there was a conflict of interest. She does look incredibly familiar but I don't recognize her name.

So now I hear from this male T and it makes me cry. I just can't imagine connecting with or caring about or even trusting a male T. All my life any male that I get close to has harmed me in a serious way. The only men I haven't been harmed by were ones that were merely aquaintances because they never had a chance to mean enough or spend enough time with me to cause harm.

I mean I seriously almost threw up at the idea of seeing this guy.

I am so worried about myself. I am not doing well. This is my mom's birthday. She died two years ago on Sept 14.My dog of 13 years died a year ago on Aug 8th. I can't find a therapist and I am scared for my future. I know I have been a big pain here on this forum. I am so grateful you have all been here. I worry that I screwed it up with you guys

Turtle - you ssssssooooo haven't screwed things up here! You're exactly where you need to be right now and that is getting the support you need!!!! Bravo to you for forging ahead. Seriously! While I haven't contributed much to this thread, I have been reading and my heart goes out to you and think of you often.

Only you can decide what's best in terms of seeing the male therapist. Trust your gut.

Thinking of you,

The Kid and li'l one

Losing your T in this way is absolutely massive and posting here about how you feel doesn't strike me as blowing it - it's reaching out to a source of support and that is a really positive thing to be doing for yourself.

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with the strong feelings around seeing a male T. I agree with others that it could potentially be a very healing experience - but I also recognise that it represents a really big risk given what has happened to you in the past.

Do take gentle care of yourself. If you're seriously worried - are there crisis numbers, sources of support locally you can use if you suddenly find yourself hitting bottom?

I'm sorry you're also dealing with painful anniversaries. I swear August is some kind of bogey month or something

Thinking of you.

(((Turtle)))
I haven't been on this forum for a very long time, less than a yr, & I've never seen so many care & write to a person who is hurting so much. It must be like a big happy family. This is what you need & were all here listening & supporting you. You haven't screwed anything up! I think it shows how much we all care about you.
I was thinking about your last post & the T saying there's a conflict of interest. Could it be that this T knows your old T? Has your name been brought up perhaps & she doesn't want a jaded opinion. Maybe she's trying to save you some grief. IMHO. I dunno.
If your that extremely upset to see a male T are there other T's on your list? I hope you live in an area that has many to choose from!
Been thinking of you often!
Mudddd

Turtle:

I just wanted to chime in and say you have been so encouraging and so supportive of many on this forum, myself included.

You are valued here.

T.

Dear Turtle, just want you to know that I also share your fear of not being able to trust a male T. Since my T dumped me, though, I am not sure I can trust a female T either. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee of emotional safety with anyone. I am sure there are some amazing male T's out there somewhere because of the testimonies of people on this board, but I understand your reluctance. Wish I could help.

(((Turtle))) you most certainly have not screwed up. Please do not worry about responding. This is a painful, deep loss and you are facing it well but it's more than understandable that its not leaving you a lot of energy to do anything else, including replying here. We really just want to help any way we can, knowing what you are going through.

AG

Hey turtle... thinking of you today. how are things going for you? are you doing okay?

Hugs
TN

Thanks for asking TN. I want to say that you guys have been so supportive and so caring. It has truly touched me.

I am not doing so good. I saw the male T today and was not impressed one way or the other. But what disturbed me is I found out that he is my old T's consultation group. This really really upsets me. He seemed to know things about me without me saying a word. This was unnerving. I left feeling sort numb and then angry. I probably will not go back to him. I was told that he's funny and kind etc. I did not see any of this. I have met funnier kinder guys. He's so CBT too. I need some other sort of help because of my past. I am not one of Pavlov's dogs. I guess I am discouraged. There is another T who is trying to get a hold of me to see if we can work together. She is quite a ways out and that's hard because I bike most everywhere. The male T is in a good location concerning travel. Right near my work too. Literally 3 blocks away. But I am not so sure that's enough to make me want to work with him. I was honestly expecting someone a little more interesting than what I actually experienced. Maybe he was being malba toast because he knows I have a difficult time with men. I was told he looks like Santa Claus. That was encouraging to me. But actually he looked nothing like Santa Claus. He had graying short hair and no beard or mustache. He's probably in his mid to late 50s and slightly overweight. he didn't smile much or say anything funny. He did talk of his dogs some. That was the most interesting part of the session. I am in dbt and quite frankly I hate it. He is very into it. I abhor it. I am not sure what to do to be honest with you.

(((Dragger))))

Yeah you start to feel like a lab rat or something. It's maddening to wonder what they are saying about you.

So I thought I would share with you what happened today. Long story short I got very emotional in general and then something happened that sent me over the top. So I was crying and very worked up and at this moment I decided to call the male T and tell him that I would not be coming back. He answers the phone. I am crying and say "I won't be coming back. Had I known you were in N's consultation group I would not have come out to see you in the first place" To which he said "You sound really upset. If you change your mind and want to come back that's okay" I didn't really let him finish what he was saying when I blurted out "I'm an old b*tch why would you want to see me? Men only care about how others look" and I hung up.

Then I talked to the woman who referred him to me and she cleared everything up. Helped me understand that they had a lot of compassion for me in the consultation group. That John (male T) was a really really nice guy who she's known for 20 years and that he definitely is not motivated by looks (sort of referencing his wife) So I call him back a few hours later and explained that I would like to come back. Left a message. I told him that if I didn't hear from him I would assume that it's okay to make another apt.

Weirdness prevails

As soon as you said the word "supervision" I already got rid of this T for you!!!! Major trigger for me as it was oldT's supervisor who demanded I be terminated so with my new T every times she says the word - i am off into terror mode. T still triggers me when she says the word as she is part of a peer supervision group. So for me it would be an absolute No for me for my new and old T to be in the same group.

nothing about this guy sounds great Turtle. You would get a feel if he was going to work out - and I think he doesn't tick enough boxes.

Somedays