To me it seems like you've answered your own question, Liese. You've got friends and others in your life to hug and hold you, and your T to be your T.

Considering you've already got a painful case of erotic transference going on with him, I think it's quite merciful of him not to hug you. Wouldn't that just cause more suffering by teasing you with the possibility of something you can't have?

I actually regret hugging my oldT. I think it made the transference worse.

Is there some other contact he'd be willing to do if you cry again? Like maybe a hand on your arm or something?

All the same I'm sorry it hurts so much

(((BLT))))

I know you are right. I know the hug would probably make the transference worse.

But I just can't get past feeling too vulnerable and too alone without it and I feel like I will stop wanting to share those feelings with my T. And then what will happen to my therapy? It's like my therapy is just stuck right here, right at this stupid point and everything else is stopping because of it.

That actually has been a goal in my therapy - to help me to seek comfort and emotional support when I'm distressed as it's been a problem of mine.

I can't seem to separate it out from needing some kind of touch.

The other thing is, the friend who hugged me isn't a really good friend. She's really just an acquaintance. It makes me a little sad that I had to get that kind of comfort from an acquaintance.

Somehow I have to get past this without feeling like I'm giving up something I really need.

Hi Liese,

I'm sorry you are going through so much with your family. I think it's only natural that you would long for your T to hug you and comfort you.

I've had those feelings as well, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my P is not going to hug me, and probably will never touch me at all.

I've had some trouble in not seeing myself as "untouchable" because I can share my innermost thoughts and feelings with him, and yet he doesn't touch me.

Now that I know him better, I realize it's all about boundaries and what he believes is best in terms of my healing.

While he may never hug me, he has given me something just as meaningful, which I now see as a gift. He has given me his complete, unwavering support as I face pain from my past and the most recent pain of a very bad therapy experience. He said he will remain there for me as I process the painful feelings of disappointment and abandonment. Basically he said he will be there for me until he ends his practice.

I can't expect, and I wouldn't expect, a friend or relative to do this for me. Some know what happened with my exp but after a while, they couldn't cope with my feelings associated with the experience. Sure, they would hug me repeatedly but they didn't have the strength and training to walk through the feelings with me.

My exp offered physical contact which, in hindsight, was very easy for him to do as he used it to meet his needs as well. (not to imply that all Ts and Ps use hugs for their needs, not at all). But what my P is now doing for me, by putting his own needs aside and focusing entirely on my feelings, so he's actually experiencing them with me in such an empathetic way is much more difficult than just hugging me when I'm distressed, in my opinion.

I still long at times for the relationship to be more normal, so if I wanted to hug him to express my gratitude, and not necessarily to receive comfort from him, it wouldn't become a boundary issue, but I now redirect my thoughts and feelings to what he has given me and what he continues to offer me that I cannot obtain from anyone else in my life.

take care,
Summer

I think, yeah, with the e transference, it would probably just complicate things if he was willing to hug you. I can understand wanting that. On the other hand, I feel like, despite hoping it might help me cry, the touch stuff we've incorporated has rarely done that. Other parts have cried, for like...five seconds. What you describe with your friend, being hugged and just sobbing...we're usually too numb to do that. It's really great that you do have other relationships that allow you that sort of release. I think your T, despite not feeling comfortable offering that to you, is definitely there to work through all the pain, anger, grief of not being able to get that from him (which is probably partly about not being able to get it a long time ago). He's not going anywhere and that in itself, even though it's not what you so desperately want, is a different sort of gift. I do get, though, that sort of, "But YOU'RE the one I want it from, not my sisters or my friends," feeling. I've found, despite what I have received, it really doesn't stop the need to grieve. If anything, there is more grief, because connecting with him has made certain parts start to realize that maybe it wasn't about some way they were unconnectable, but there was really just a choice, on some level, for those caretakers to just not give them the love and affection they needed. There is no equivalence. Getting the need met now really doesn't make that pain any different. Rather, it seems to intensify it. Yet, still, we're paralyzed at the point of grieving...can't do it. Just my experience. Sorry if that's not helpful or if it hurts to hear about somebody who gets that. I can delete if that's the case. I just don't want it being assumed it is a magic fix, 'cause it's not. It just makes things slightly more bearable at times.

I am not Buddhist but they ha ve some. Interesting ideas about love and attachment

And how it relates to suffering. Not advocating...just saying.

((Liese))

I'm sorry you're suffering with this. Sometimes I feel like touch is a catalyst (no pun intended) for getting in touch with my emotions. I know when my T holds my hand I'm able to let go more, but not both of my Ts work like that. I do get touch from both of them though and I do think for some people no touch is what they need and some people do need touch - and I really advocate you finding an SE or adjunct therapist who might be able to provide touch if you really feel that is what you need for your healing but you will have to deal with not getting touch from your particular T which... is the hardest part.

I'm not sure why my Ts are okay with touch, I know my SE T obviously is trained in a specific kind of touch - she touched me (my hands) the first time I saw her which freaked me out but now I'm okay with her, I know my T1 I guess she gives hugs to people nearly starting at the first session but didn't touch me because I was basically a quivering mass of fear So in those times, it wasn't the right time. I think both of my Ts just believe in it but wouldn't do it unless they thought it was a good idea for that person. But then there are some Ts that no touch is just their policy too which... that's them personally. It's really hard to run in to that barrier.

I don't think I could heal without touch, I really don't. I think if my Ts weren't touchy by now I'd have left. It's been very difficult for me to get used to touch it's taken about 7 years (when I had my first massage) to really understand how my body works. It's how I get to know people and feel safe with people (either being in close proximity like 1ft away, or actual touch). It's like how I can measure them and I think it was too overwhelming with my Ts at first because I was too afraid to find out about them or have them find out too much about me. I've said this before on the boards but my family is touchy both good and bad. So I don't really think I could understand a relationship with no touch but actually my best friend of 25 years... her and I don't touch maybe a hug here and there and we still have a great relationship and I don't' really need that to get along with her. Anyway, I'm sorry to ramble my dear.

I think if you really think that is something you need... you can find it, just not where you are at now and both can be healing. And both can be hard.

Hmmm it's a difficult one. My T does touch in that she holds my hand and I find that connection helps me to feel braver, as if we are in it together..... It also helps me to know that she has empathy and understands, and more importantly has taught me that touch can be safe, after a mum who rarely touched me (only to hurt me)and never hugged me - and still doesn't.

I used to think that if my T hugged me I would be able to cry. Well the upshot of it is that she does hug me, but I still can't cry BUT I know that if and when I do, I will have a safe, suppotive reaction from her. But each therapist and each client is different and has different needs, so I guess as long as you feel safe and understood Liese by your T, one day I hope you (and me) will be able to cry

starfish

As far as hugs go, I doubt I'll even get one at termination. My erotic transference is so strong, I'd probably pass out instantly if my T initiated a hug. We have discussed this at length, I demanded a hug,threatened to quit, still no hugs. She says " one is too manyanadromous a thousand is not enough".

I love her so much.

Pam

quote:

I still long at times for the relationship to be more normal, so if I wanted to hug him to express my gratitude, and not necessarily to receive comfort from him, it wouldn't become a boundary issue, but I now redirect my thoughts and feelings to what he has given me and what he continues to offer me that I cannot obtain from anyone else in my life.

This was beautifully said, Summer. As you know my T and I had the "hug conversation" and it ended rather badly and during the next session I did not speak to him for a full 20 minutes I was so angry, sad and frustrated. In my case I just asked what his hug policy was and he was evidently taken off guard and told me that no one touches him. He told me that only 2 people in 20+ years of being a T were allowed to hug him and one person was a male! My T went on to explain that for him it's a cultural thing... hugging was not done in his family and he was personally uncomfortable with the whole idea. I was so angry I told him maybe he needs to go back to therapy himself to deal with his hug phobia!

I have NO erotic transference for him and I made that clear to him. For me it's a nurturing, comforting and soothing type of thing. And not getting the hug or even touch beyond his usual handshakes and his touch of me on my arm/shoulder, felt like it would be a dealbreaker. How could I do therapy with someone so cold and so touch aversive. I was struggling with being left alone in my grief and fear and pain and he would just be sitting there and I am his "exhibit" to observe in some detached sort of way. And although there is still a lot of deep grief I have not hit yet, it's been okay. He is there with me in my pain in a way that is comforting. We still have not truly resolved the conversation and he had said to me that he'd like to leave it on the table for further discussion but we never went back to it... so many other things have come up and gotten in the way since then. But even w/o the hugs and the touch, we have been doing a lot of work together.

I also want to mention that I did get hugs from oldT. I introduced the topic and made it clear to him that I would not refuse a hug from him, that it would be okay w/me and again I would find it comforting, healing and it would help me to feel I was touchable and not so much alone. After seeing him for a year and a half he hugged me on my birthday. It was a wonderful, long, comforting hug. I remember it very clearly. After that we hugged almost every session. But it really didn't help me therapeutically. It didn't help me cry more or less, or make therapy more healing. It didn't take away the grief or replace what I lost as a child. And it left me wondering if the hug was more for him or me. It turns out it's the expertise and health of the T that is more important than the hugs themself. And so, I feel very much the way Summer described it in the above quote. Yes, I miss the hugs but I get something priceless from my T that no one else can give me. So I have come to accept not getting that hug... (although I AM going to hug him dammit if I ever leave therapy and he is gonna have to deal with it

I'm sorry it's so hard for you Liese.


TN

quote:

My T won't hug me so I can cry. I have this fantasy, this wish of being held - possibly just once - while I cry and share all this pain I've been carrying around. I don't cry easily or much at all with other people. Mostly I cry alone.

I know I'm supposed to grieve that I didn't have anyone to hug or hold me as a child and can't get it

I know EXACTLY how you feel I could have written that. I wish I had the answer for you because I know how deep the need is. I got some of those hugs from my T and I think I literally melted into her being. I needed it so much, and I could have stayed there forever.

Unfortunately I can't offer any advise though.

I've received exactly 3 hugs from my T... One of which I asked for, and 2 that she initiated.

She initiated the first two, they were for Christmas, and my birthday respectively.

The 3rd one came at the end of a long, hard session when I was in a weird, off and crummy place mentally... I got up to leave, and we both paused at the door as we always do, and I asked her if it would be okay if I asked her for a hug. The hug she gave me was geniune, grounding and hugely helpful...

Afterward, I felt guilty for having asked - And emailed accordingly. She reminded me that I was someone whose 'primary love language' was physical touch, and as such - She knew the grounding power of what she was offering when she gave me a hug...

I know she isn't all that traditional of a T, and I think of all the training and life experience she has, she is guided more by compassion and her gut than any one 'principle'. I think, this is hugely helpful for me...

Have you read 'The Five Love Languages'? It's hugely helpful...but I would find it equally frustrating to be in a 'relationship' with a T that wasn't open to talking to me in my own 'language'...

It's probably worth noting, that I've been terrified to ask my T for another hug...

No hugs from my T and I am not even sure if we have touched. I have made it pretty clear to her that I don't want her to hug me - so I think she would be trying to avoid it. Sometimes when we are walking together - we are very close and perhaps we touch then - can't remember.

I am not sure whether I have told her - but i am scared that if she ever hugged me that I would cry and never stop. So i want to avoid public displays of tears and sobbing - so let's avoid the whole hugging thing in the first place.

Somedays

Liese

I am so sorry for what you are going through.

My T simply doesn't do "touch therapy" .I've worried myself to bits about why I've never criied in front of her yet openly weep in the street as soon as I leave.

I'm certain a hug from her would open the floodgates as I eas never ever hugged as a child .Not once. Never.

I guess I've accepted her boundaries now. At least she allowd me to squeeze her hand.

Liese, I wish I could offer you more support here.

Would a hug from help?

(((Liese)))

AV

Hi Liese, yay I've sussed out this damn phone now.

Proper hugs to you





whoah, enough

AV

(((SUMMER))) (((YAKU))) (((MAYO))) (((CAT))) (((STARFISH))) (((MONTE))) (((BG))) (((PJ))) (((CTL))) (((TRUE))) (((NORTH))) (((B2W))) (((NAVYME))) (((SOMEDAYS))) ((((AVOIDANT)))

I just want to say thank you all so much for your sharing your stories and your perspectives and for the support and yes, the hugs. It was all so helpful.

I actually tried to reply last night but somehow my whole message disappeared and I got frustrated.

I've been mulling everything over all weekend and feel like I might have gone from some "foot stomping" child to more of a place of acceptance.

The big thing for me is that it just feels so cold to me to have my need ignored. It's hard to tolerate but maybe that's because of my background and how cold it felt to me in my family to have my needs ignored. Not that T is cold but that's how it feels. It hits this nerve that just hurts soooooo much.

On Thursday, I told him that it's hard for me to leave him every session, that it's sad. Each time I leave feels like a loss. And that I know he doesn't feel the same way when I leave but that I need to feel our connection as I leave, I need to be able to express how sad it is for me, how hard it is for me in between sessions.

He apologized for making me feel "ignored" at the end of the session and of course I minimized it and said, it's really not important. And he said it was important.

So at the end of the session as we got to the door, he turned and faced me and talked to me very closely. It felt nice that he was sensitive to me.

I'm not sure how this relates to the hug thing but I think it's connected in there somehow. It was as if the acknowledgment and acceptance of my feelings by him gave me permission to have them. I needed the validation.

quote:

I'm sorry you are going through so much with your family.

I have told my T that no one in my family ever said, Liese, I'm so sorry this is so hard for you. I'm so sorry for what you went through. Such a small gesture and yet so powerful and meaningful, at least for me.



Love you guys,

Liese

I'm sorry Liese. I totally understand how strong that desire is to have a hug in your Ts arms while you cry.

I don't have the answers to your questions about how not getting this from T and instead grieving it is supposed to be healing. However, I do think there is something safe and comforting in your T keeping firm boundaries. In a sense, it is like he is metaphorically hugging you and keeping you contained, even though you aren't getting the physical hug. I guess this boundary is his way of looking out for you on a consistent basis.

I wonder if maybe the fantasy of being held is his arms while you cry is perhaps more healing than if you were to actually get a hug? What I mean is that, as Starfishy pointed out, sometimes when you finally do get that hug from your T, it is not really the big moment you had hoped for. In some ways, that can be more disappointing than to never have had the hug to begin with, in my opinion. last year when I went to visit T1 I hugged her twice and it was nothing special and I felt a little sad about that.

I'm glad that you are able to get the hug from a friend though. And I am sorry to hear about your brother's cancer. I know how stressful and sad that is. Sending you lots of hugs...

BG, Thanks for the link. It was very interesting to read. In her book, Deborah Lott said that many therapists said the same thing.

I can see how that plays out. I just had an incident with my T at the end of my session. My T would sometimes touch my arm as we approached the door at the end of my sessions. I really wanted to lean into him because I was sad I was leaving him and wanted to lean into him so he could comfort me but knew I couldn't so I would just make a sad face instead.

He seemed to stop touching my arm for a while and I felt like he was ignoring me as we ended the session.

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that I'm sad to leave him but afraid to tell him because I know he doesn't feel the same way. How do you get comfort from someone who doesn't feel the same way as you?

Anyway, I finally did tell him this past Monday and at the end of that session, he made a special effort to stop at the door before we walked out and turn towards me and talked to me for another 20 seconds. It really touched me that he was sensitive to me IN THE WAY THAT HE COULD BE even though he doesn't feel the same way.

I wouldn't have realized what it was that was bothering me nor would I have had that experience if he'd just let me hug him.

However, I still wouldn't turn down that hug if offered!!