((((((((((((((((((Beebs)))))))))))))))))))))

Have you talked to Cowboy T about this? Do you think Cowboy T might be open to helping to contact GuruT again to process the ending, at least? Just a thought. I'm sorry this hurts so much sweetie. You deserve so much better.



All my love,
SG

(((((BB)))))),
So sorry you are needing your old T. I know it wasn't easy to ask for the break and I know you miss him.

I can imagine how it must feel reading Ts response to your question about coming back. While I don't think it was cold, if I were in your shoes, I probably would have wanted T to try to talk me out of quitting. But I do think he made it pretty clear that you are always welcome to come back to therapy or at the very least, give him an update on how you are doing.

I echo SG, have you talked to Cowboy T about this?

Dearest Beebs,

((((((((baby bird))))))))

I'm so so sorry you are faced with this pain, caught in the bind of having him fill such a central internal role for you, and yet being so painfully separated from in him in the external world. It hurts so much.

And there is a dreadfulness about the way the words will morph into one thing, and then into another, as your internal state shifts between those conflicting understandings of his care. I wish I knew the answers for you.

I would like to make a suggestion that could perhaps be an alternative to that painful swing as you try to interpret his words. That is to look to his actions, not to his words, to understand what he could and couldn't give you. This is painful too, I know, and I'm sorry. But I believe that this is where the reality lies of who he is. And I believe he was very consistent in his inconsistency. What this means about whether he cares about you I don't know, but I do think it tells you what you need to know about the limits of the kind of care he is capable of.

I am going to go way out on a limb here and speculate that the inconsistency of his behavior represents inconsistency in his internal world, and that perhaps your T was someone who struggled with 'object constancy' - so that some of the time you were internally present for him and he felt his caring, and some of the time you were 'gone' - in those times perhaps he acted uncaring because he did not hold the sense of your presence internally. I have no idea if this is correct or not, just think that perhaps it would make sense of how you felt such powerfully conflicting things from him. Maybe.

I think you should give yourself as much time as you need to think about him every day, to feel the pain and the sadness and the longing. As much time as you need, Beebs. Because he represented and represents something so central and important to you internally, this is actually incredibly important therapeutic work. You are actually doing the work of therapy in having and acknowledging these feelings. And with the others I would really recommend you let Cowboy T in on the work you are doing, the feelings you are feeling, as much as you can.

Love,
Jones

Dear Beebers,

How hard for you, trying to give it a go with Cowboy T, but your heart still with Guru T Ok, going to sound like a broken record and echo my wise friends, but the first thing I thought was that you should try and broach this with Cowboy T. He has shown himself to be steady and understanding of your feelings and to me has sounded like he genuinely wants your best interests at heart. At the very least it might help you to feel more true to yourself in sessions, I can't imagine how hard it must be to be sitting with him, however good he is, yet wishing it was rather with someone else



Missing is part of grieving Bebers, you still have a lot of grieving to do for that relationship with Guru T, whatever its difficulties were at the time.

Many thoughts and another hug



starfishy

((((BB)))))

It sounds as if you are judging yourself negatively because you continue to think of your T every day. That you continue to think about him often just says that you have unresolved issues that really need your full attention and your mind is dealing with it in the only way it knows how to deal with it. Perhaps you never learned how to resolve loss. Don't be so hard on yourself. Embrace the feelings and thoughts as painful as they are. Don't fight them. Try to get the answers to your questions. You need to BB. This is important on many levels. Past, present and future love and loss. These issues will continue to haunt you.

On the one hand, you could contact guruT and ask him your questions. But I would be afraid that you would get hurt, that he would respond in a way, maybe not intentionally, but that would devastate you further. It's like when TN (I hope you don't mind TN) wanted to contact OldT and New T kept telling her to wait until she was stronger and to do so from the place of an adult as opposed to the place of a child.

Perhaps resolving this loss is what you should be focusing on with CowboyT instead of "moving on" with therapy. And, maybe you and CowboyT could consider together whether or not and/or when and if you should contact GuruT to get the answers to some of your questions and/or to possibly reconsider returning to GuruT for therapy. But, if you remember, there was something missing in your therapy that kept you longing for him, kept you hurting. And, that is a sideshow to therapy. Those issues should get resolved. But GuruT was unable to help you resolve them for whatever reason.

((((((BB))))) If it is weighing on your mind so much, it needs to be dealt with.

xoxoxo

Liese

BB, I don't know a lot about telephone therapy and internet therapy but if this kind of therapy is the only kind of therapy GuruT does, it could be possible that he himself is not comfortable getting close to people, getting attached to people or welcoming the attachment and that is exactly why he chooses to delve into this type of therapy. Just something to consider. You might need someone (ask TN) who welcomes your attachment.

Thank you SG- I am not sure. I haven't really talked to Cowboy about my T much. He just doesn't seem open to it, somehow. He asks me questions about a lot of things- but never that. (((((((((SG))))))))))

Monte- Thank you- I'm sure you are right. But I just can't seem to accept it. I've been drafting emails to him that I never send lately. ugh. (((((((((Monte))))))))

DF, thank you..what you say makes a lot of sense- I wish I could believe that he really wanted me to stay in therapy and wanted to continue trying to help, but wouldn't say so since it would have changed my mind. Thing is, I wanted him to change my mind. he is the one who brought up the idea of a break first though.((((((((((DF))))))))

Thanks LG. Maybe I will give him an update on how I am doing. I'm not sure what to do. I can't find closure about it, and I think about him more and more lately, not less and less. It's bad cause I know he probably barely remembers that I was a client or what my issues were by now. ((((((((LG)))))))))

Thank you Jones...thank you for the reality check, and making things clear for me. you are right- he was inconsistent, and I keep forgetting that, and I keep forgetting how much that contributed to my confusion and pain. I just remember the good stuff, and want that again. When I was a kid, I was abused for years at a certain school- then finally my parents put me in a different school, but I didn't get along there either. So guess what? I longed for the old school and thought of it as ideal and perfect, and wanted to go back there. What you said about my T kind of forgetting about me at times makes sense. Hm. Lots to think about there. object constancy, huh? I think that one may apply to me. I tend to forget all about people unless they are fairly constantly present, I suppose...I mean, my family, mostly, I've pretty much forgotten about them in the sense of relationship being maintained. hm. interesting. I can't remember the ways that T was inconsistent though, except about making appointments regularly for me. I wish I could talk to Cowboy about this stuff, but I just can't, really. It just seems too deep and profound for the kind of work we do so far. He's not super serious or something. I can't explain it. Thank you for the help and insight Jones. Especially since you are going through such a crummy time right now. (((((((((Jones)))))))))))

Thank you starfishy...I did try to broach the subject the session before last- he asked what I have been thinking about, and I said that I can't stop thinking about my old T that I miss him all the time and I feel really stupid admitting that to him. So he asked "what do you miss?" and I started to feel spacy and couldn't really answer properly. I said I miss his face, but that was about it. Then he moved into talking about me feeling stupid about it, and we ended up elsewhere. It's always a productive and good session- but I'm not motivated to do this work we are doing. I find I'm just looking for comfort right now, and it's interfering with what Cowboy wants to do- which is actually therapy. I know it's normal- but I also do not know how to get that need for comfort met.
(((((((Starfish)))))) I hope you are doing well, my friend.

Lise thank you for your thoughts- I could contact guru T and you know what- in some weird way, I'm not afraid of the pain his rejection would cause in me. It would be better to feel that than this place of limbo, no feeling- suspended in time and place...I feel frozen. I'm a snowman. It's frustrating being back to this place of apathy again. LL once said something about the pain being the work...that at least I was feeling something even if it was pain, rage, and unmet need- it really struck me. So, said guru T, you know- that I had to experience the pain of longing in order to heal, I suppose because I probably shut down long ago in just such a place and need to go back there. hanks for the idea, but, no, T's main focus in therapy was actually one-on-one or couples therapy, and *extended* sessions were his thing. He really believed in the connection in the present moment, and all of that. He himself would tell me that internet therapy wasn't good for me, but that it was what we had to work with now, and we had to make the best of it, now that we were in it. Initially he was very, very accepting and affirming of my attachment, which made if grow. But that changed. Something changed and I don't know what. That is why I got so confused. He had all the right ideas. He just didn't get *me.* It's like there *really was* something wrong with me. ARg, I know I'm not supposed to think that, but I just keep going back to that, since it's really the only thing that makes sense to me! sorry..(((((((((Liese))))))))

Thank you for the support dear friends...

Aw, Beebs.

I'm sorry I'm coming late to this and really haven't posted much lately. I don't have much I could add to what has already been said. I just want to give you lots of hugs and let you know I'm thinking of you. I'm sorry you're in so much pain.

Thank you Kashley- you are sweet.

hugs,

BB

Hi Beebs... I somehow missed this thread and I'm sorry.

What you are feeling is totally expected and normal. I STILL miss my oldT despite his very harmful and traumatic actions towards me. Even after my last ditch attempt to get some answers from him that he could not give me. He had so little to say about our years together it made me think I was doing therapy with someone else and not him.

What I want to advise you here is that you absolutely need to process this grief with cowboy T before you can move forward with anything else. You need to talk about what happened and how it made you feel. And you need to do it a lot. After one year (and mostly 2x per week sessions) I am STILL talking about what oldT did to me with my T. I still get stuck and still have fear and still want to run from him. I have expressed my fear to my T that he will get sick of this and he said he wouldn't and asked me if I had seen any real evidence that he was sick of hearing it and I had to say no.

What Jones says is right. It's not what they say but how they behave is what tells us the truth. Words are hard to measure, especially via skype or email. A friend's T used to tell her... don't watch my mouth watch my feet. I always remembered that and I understand it more now since I was abandoned by oldT. He was always inconsistent but since it was what I knew from childhood it seemed normal to me and familiar.

Hang in there Beebs and talk to cowboy T about this.

Hugs
TN

Dearest Beebs,

Don't underestimate the thing about the appointments. Appointments were your way of having time with him. In other words, appointments were the structure and core of the relationship. And you really put yourself on the line to let him know that consistent and regular appointments were important to keeping you feeling ok. But he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't provide it. I am not trying to rub it in here, believe me, just to give you the really concrete thing that was visible while you were seeing him, so that you can hang on to *why* you made the choice you made. Which I think was a really strong and healthy one.

I wonder if Cowboy T is staying away from the heavy and triggering stuff right now to help you get stabilized in a more functional state. I know the deeper work is where we feel more real, but I suspect it can be counterproductive in some situations, if the surface is not functioning. But I wouldn't know. Manatee also is like this a lot - not too serious or deep - and I don't know why, maybe because he's just not that kind of person.

Give it time, honey. It's obviously working on some level, and that is important right now. And share what you can.

Love,
Jones

Thanks TN and Jones... I'm just blanking out about what to talk about with Cowboy, if that makes any sense. I'm sure Cowboy would be open to discussing my T if I really opened it up, but I'm kinda drawing a blank. I can't figure out what was wrong and that is the thing that bugs me the most- no clear answers. No finality...just an open door to something that I wasn't able to make work for me, and that I still want to make work for me.

Maybe I'm resisting having any kind of emotional response to what Cowboy is doing/saying about my life- *because* it is exactly what I always wished my T would do. I wished I:
1. could see him in person (not possible and not his fault)
2. he would touch me if I were to see him in person (not sexually, just in a friendly or connecting way)
3.would chat with me about his life and ask me questions about mine
4.would make regular weekly appointments without always asking me weird questions about it or making a big thing out me asking for them.
5. Would have boundaries that I *just knew* I couldn't cross such as..not allowing too much emailing and stuff like that, instead of having *no boundary* at all on it, or a moving boundary. I have no idea about Cowboy, but I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't allow me to email him every day, and if I was he would be broaching the subject and asking me why.
6. wouldn't give conflicting statements such as "It's not important to talk about the past" and "You need to talk about it over and over again."
7. accept whatever feelings came up for him even ones that might be deemed "inappropriate" like anger, apathy, despair, attraction, or whatever else- and help me to deal with them by clear and honest communication about what he is thinking of my responses- instead of keeping his cards hidden and letting me thrash around in confusion, trying to get some kind of perspective.
8. be willing to lead the session by opening up a discussion- when I am drawing a blank, instead of treating me like I am screwing up, messing up the process by blanking, or by needing that- this one really backed me into a corner.

When I think about this- Cowboy does every one of these things. So- guess what? No transference! Usually by now in these types of caring relationships, I would be fighting off "those" feelings. That anxious, agonizing longing. It's curious. Like with my SD, this time it is just not really "angsty." Maybe I worked through that with T, and didn't know it! That's what he would think, I know. Maybe I'm free of it, now. It's possible.

But- as LL said- those feelings might have been the work, since I have very small emotional responses, or none at all to most stuff, and my T evoked like *MEGA* emotional response in my otherwise apathetic emotional life. There certainly was something about that longing he evoked... it seems to have died. But my emotional life died too. I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all- that's the reality, I guess. Is that yucky? And I cry with Cowboy, for some reason, I don't even know and can't really explain. It's like- if I have to talk about me and any of the deeper stuff- I just start to cry, unaccountably. I think that letting go of denial that "everything is ok" is just really, really painful, and like- a life's work.

Love,

BB

I managed to talk to Cowboy about Guru T today...it was good. He related my feelings for guru T to the past, and I can actually talk to him because he doesn't scare the shit out of me! I talked. Really, I did, and I was able to, for just a minute think...this might be real, I might not be lying. I always think I'm lying. Not in the sense of relation painful trauma or anything like that...but I just think everything that comes out of my mouth is blatantly untrue, so I didn't talk to guru T much. But I talk to Cowboy, and it feels ...almost normal. I still might be lying though, but I'm not quite so sure anymore.

I'm scared though cause...what if it turns into a relationship?

quote:

and I can actually talk to him because he doesn't scare the shit out of me! I talked.

YAY (((((Beebs))))) how wonderful

quote:

what if it turns into a relationship?

CowboyT could just be the best thing that has happened along for you in a very loooooooong time

Just go with it my friend, oh and you don't lie lady! Not in your nature!

Thinking of you (((Beebs))).
Love, Morgs

((((BB))))

Your session sounds so amazing. Just the fact in and of itself that you were able to let yourself talk about GuruT with CowboyT is terrific. I know you said that he seemed to not follow up with you when you brought up GuruT in the past but sometimes I wonder if T's step back a little when they know the material is very painful. I'm glad that he was receptive though and it was helpful.



Liese

Thanks so much everyone. I'm surprised at being able to talk to him without too much problem. I think it is because I have no emotional involvement or attachment for him, so if feels a lot safer without that. We went places yesterday that I have never been able to contemplate with Guru T, and it just feels ok because Cowboy will not jump to conclusions about the past, but is clearly just trying to help me sort out what my situation growing up really was. We've moved towards the heart of things- the Dad issues- really quickly, and it's possible that it is because guru T actually prepared me for this. What I mean to say, is that- it might be that I would have reacted to Cowboy in the same way that I reacted to Guru if I had started with him first. Who knows...but I do know that when it was time to wrap up, Cowboy said so, firmly, but nicely- and asked me if I minded beginning next week with what I had just divulged. And it felt ok, really it did. Because *he* doesn't feel bad about having boundaries. I think guru felt bad and guilty about things like having to wrap up sessions without some big breakthrough happening. Also, I feel like I am able to explore this thing with Cowboy, without him drawing absolute conclusions from it, but more just to figure out why I felt the way I did when I was kid. I asked him to remind me, and I know that he actually will, if I forget. That is a very huge deal to me- to know that he is willing to keep me on track with stuff- actually wants me to stay on track, perhaps..!!- it's huge, because I really do not know how to keep myself on track. I was trying to do therapy alone before, it felt like. But I am not spacing out sessions as much as I used to.

But we are exploring the transference I have with Guru, something I was never able to do adequately or in a healing way with Guru himself, because my feelings and the transference itself made talking or acknowledging the truth of my feelings nearly impossible, since they were about *him* -and he seemed to really think they were about him. So forget about exploring any negative transference feelings in any constructive way. I just couldn't overcome it. I find myself actually in therapy, for the first time.

But Guru T is still the main catalyst of pain, not the past- for some reason. I am quite confused about this situation, but I feel I'm in good hands, anyway, since Cowboy just stays so professional, I totally sense that he is ok with whatever I say, that it doesn't bother *him.* If that makes sense. I think that's the key. who knows how he would react if I actually developed that kind of transference for him though. Maybe it's just fine as long as he's not involved, idk.
I still long to contact Guru T and do the work with him. But I am starting to suspect that my instincts about him reacting to me in a less-than-strictly professional way, (as in needing and desiring my gratitude and adulation, and being unaware that that was even true for him) may have actually been correct, despite his constant protestations to the contrary. And I can see, now that I am talking to Cowboy T who clearly needs nothing from me and seems very content in himself- how that dynamic could have screwed things up big time in my head and in my heart. But I find I still *want* that. Maybe that itself is what I miss. That sense of closeness, of being special or maybe even notorious to him somehow- even though he *said* otherwise over and again. But just by experiencing something different, I'm starting to have an inkling of what was going on, and how bad it was for me. addictive.

I don't know how Cowboy does it- he is just really, really regular, and totally sure of himself. He feels very separate- in a good way, a way that helps me be able to talk to him. I don't feel "linked" to him in that strong emotionally connected, totally dependent way. He doesn't feel at all "God-like" to me. He seems to maintain a friendly and open equal footing. No "warm fuzzies." This is therapy, not hero worship. Poor Guru T- I really feel awful about causing that dynamic between us. I hope like crazy that doesn't happen to me with Cowboy, or I won't be able to do this anymore.

So there is my update, and my official acknowledgement that I'm in therapy with Cowboy, now. The next thing I have to figure out, is if I am supposed to tell Guru, or not, since things were left open....I welcome any advice!

Love, great big hugs,

BB

bb, just catching up a little and am intrigued in your situation, as it is THE situation we all seem to struggle in. or some form of.

what is it, do they take an oath that says they must not care? or show they do??

i don't know much of this history, as i have stayed away for so long, but, i am sure the man cares, or he wouldn't be in this business. no one could. as to the depth? who knows.

we all wrestle with this. i know i do.

i am tempted to ask mine next time, just point blank. "do you care?" and NOT allow any fancy talk around the subject, he would say "i care about all my patients"..."why do you ask, it seems important to you to know how i feel about you, don't you know what i think isn't important it is what YOU think" kind of garbage...they all have their lines.


BUT, corner him. POINT BLANK. YES, OR NO.

or, no response. and if i get no response. i will consider it 'pissy'.

so, i don't know what i am saying, other than, this is just the thing they never say.

and they won't. the good ones won't, i believe.

but, they do care. they just have to do, for what reason they THINK (and i am here to argue otherwise) is therapeutically in OUR best interest, to FRUSTRATE that yearning until it is TOLERABLE for US TO NOT YEARN for their caring anymore.

i DON'T like it. i don't AGREE with it.

and yes, sometimes, as someone said, they may care more some days than others...some days we are more tuned into our kids than others, altho we always care.

so, bb, i guess, i just want to help you get over this hump, because this is frustration tolerance that they are trying to teach us with this. THAT is the ball, we have our eyes on the wrong ball i realize in thinking it is the issue of caring. but, five year old me still holds the keys, and i'm with you. the mature one is trying to get me to not play this game with 'them' anymore.

xxoo, (i care, how's that??) THUD! jill

and as to his email reply?? 'politically correct' is all i would take from that. that is all they can do. and not all of them even do that. so, i wouldn't look between the words. the words are printed forever, so there is nothing but squeeky clean political correctness there. j

BB

I am pleased that you are more settled with CowboyT. To me, there are so many things that make feel that you are in a safe pair of hands, and safety in that relationship is what you need.

quote:

And I can see, now that I am talking to Cowboy T who clearly needs nothing from me and seems very content in himself- how that dynamic could have screwed things up big time in my head and in my heart

That is really reassuring BBers, you do not need to be worrying about your T so having him content in his own skin is so important, specially after Guru T wasn't so content in that he demanded so much from you emotionally and no hero worship needed there either, thank goodness. (((BB)))

Dont worry about a relationship BB. A relationship doesn't have to be bad, you will need to have a relationship to move onwards - but this can be a positive relationship. CowboyT has his head screwed on and I really hope he will take you gently in a relationship that is supporting, caring and empowering with safe boundaries. That will be a good relationship feathery one. I pray that for you.

starfish

Oh, Beebs, it did my heart so MUCH good to read this!!

quote:

I find myself actually in therapy, for the first time.

THIS is the T you have deserved all along, sweetie. I'm SO glad you are starting to experience the difference in how therapy can be with someone who has enough humility to be the T in the room. Cowboy sounds like the T I just ended with in so many ways - in how he just lets you talk about stuff and it feels safe - how you don't feel like you're trying to do therapy alone anymore - how he seems so regular (I thought of it as steady, unflappable - no more walking on eggshells - I didn't have to worry about offending her, ever!!) - you can let him be the T and actually be the patient, right? I really, really understand the relief in that!!

I also understand being a little doubtful about the connection, because there wasn't the strong emotional reaction to her that I had to my former T (who very much resembled your Guru in a lot of ways), but there really was a connection - just a healthy one.

Oh, and I strongly encourage you not to spend another minute feeling sorry for "poor Guru T". You did nothing to cause that dynamic!! It was his inability to care for you properly, that set off a renactment that probably resembled your childhood in lots of ways. Not that anyone did anything "on purpose"...but there is absolutely no reason to feel sorry for him, OR to beat yourself up. So put down that hammer and step away, feather-face.

So happy for you, my friend. Thank you for sharing this. You made my day!!

Love,
SG
(and please do not take my happiness for you as "pressure" that you somehow need to be perfectly happy with Cowboy from this point forward )

((((BB)))))

So glad you finally feel as though you are in therapy with cowboy T. Don't know whether or not you should contact Guru T but my best "advice" would be to try to sort it out with cowboy T, to see if he could help you make sense of it all. And if and when you do decide to contact Guru T, you can do so from a position of strength - like TN's T had said to her.

xoxoxo

Liese

Hi Beebs,
Sorry I am so late to the thread! I am also glad to see that you are settling into working with CowboyT. And it's ok that you are having a lot of different emotions about both Ts and don't feel the same way about them. But I think the sense of ease you are feeling with Cowboy T and your being able to actually speak is so very important. I am glad that you are exploring the transference, if for no other reason, I think it may help you understand that you didn't do anything wrong.

Your descriptions of Cowboy T make him sound very grounded and comfortable with who he is and what he can do. I think your sense of ease is due to being regulated by being near someone who is more settled. From your descriptions I strongly suspect that Cowboy T is very good at self-care and so comes to the therapy relationship the way he should, needing nothing from it beyond getting paid. Which means the focus is where it should be, on YOUR feelings. I suspect that with the Guru, he really was taking some emotional affirmation away from therapy in the form of his patients adulation and admiration. This is dangerous because then his own emotional needs can get tied up with your emotions and progress and then things get very messy and very muddy. Much the way it did with our parents. Which is why I VERY MUCH agree with what Monte said. I think the intensity you are feeling about Guru is very much wrapped up with unprocessed buried stuff about your parents.

quote:

And I can see, now that I am talking to Cowboy T who clearly needs nothing from me and seems very content in himself- how that dynamic could have screwed things up big time in my head and in my heart. But I find I still *want* that.

I just wanted to comment on this Beebs (because behind it, and correct me if I'm wrong, I can hear "wow, what's wrong with me that I would still long for something that I know is screwed up and unhealthy?). I believe there are two reasons you are longing for this. The first is to try to equalize the power in the relationship and the other is because it evokes the very healthy longing from your primal relationships to get your needs met.

When someone needs us, especially a therapist who isn't supposed to, it gives us power in the relationship. In a healthy theraputic relationship, where the T doesn't need anything, we can often feel powerless, that there is nothing KEEPING them there. We can be painfully aware that they can walk away and not be very affected. And if we have never felt loved that can feel REALLY scary. Because we have no belief that in and of ourselves we are worth someone's attention and time and care. We believe the only way anyone sticks around is because they can get something from us. It's disconcerting and unfamiliar to have it not be that way. We understand people who are feeding off of us in some way, so on a deep limbic level it feels "safer" to us because we've been there before and know how to cope with it. SO it makes sense that you would long for the "known" quantity rather then sitting with the discomfort of something new (even if it's better). Seriously they've done trauma studies to prove this point. Given two choices, a traumatized rat or person, will choose the more painful of two choices if it's more familiar. It's the way we work.

The second reason, I think, is that you felt connected with Guru and he did care for you and pay attention to you in such a way that your old unmet needs came to life. You fixed on him as finally being the person you've looked for your whole life, who would love you the way you longed to be loved as a child (which is totally normal, healthy and expected.) He held out a promise of meeting those needs. The problem is that while we can find what we need to heal within therapy, we can't go back and meet all those needs. One of the reasons that boundaries are SO important in therapy is so that a T doesn't hold out that promise. As unbelievably painful as it can be facing the loss of not being able to go back and get everything we should have, it's not nearly as devastating as being told we can have only to failed once again. I think that Guru Ts faulty boundaries held out that promise and what you are longing for are to get those needs met. And there's nothing wrong with that longing. It's human and healthy and legitimate.

((((Beebs)))) I admire SO much your fortitude and courage in continuing to move forward despite your feelings and your drive to understand what is going on and to heal. I really believe with Cowboy T that you will find healing. Thank you for sharing this with us.

love Aglet

Wow- thank you so much, Jill, Starfish, SG, Liese, Monte and Ag-

Jill it is lovely to see you! I'm not sure if this frustration you are talking about is really beneficial or not. I suspect my Guru T operated that way, and while I understand the idea behind it that a client needs to learn to tolerate painful emotions and not having emotional needs met, because that is the reality in everyday life- I also think that many of us enter therapy not quite so much to just explore and know ourselves, change unhealthy patterns and so on- but to reach a point where we are able to experience ourselves without so much psychic pain. So having the need for affirmation met before entering the self-exploration/change phase (or during) makes most sense to me, because when a person already had zero self-esteem, then it makes sense that some self-esteem would need to be built via the affirmation of a stronger caring other- before a person could take on the huge challenge of actually changing the negative stuff within, kwim? Otherwise- having the negatives pointed out or made known will just be more fodder for self-hatred. That's been my experience anyway. But, I do no know of any T's who operate that way. I think it can probably work to do the self-exploration when it is with a really affirming psychologist, who willingly points out your positive qualities, and who likes you- and doesn't mind saying so in various ways. I'm not sure. I don't really know anything, it's just thoughts based on what I've read a bit here and elsewhere, and my own interior reality...I could be far wrong. I'm not sure where Cowboy T stands on the whole question of encouraging attachment in order to affirm clients. I haven't dared ask.

At any rate- It is so nice to see you! I hope you are still having great sessions with Dr. Pa... and that you are experiencing some relief. You are a very special person. Thanks for the support, jill!

My boy needs to go to bed, so I will be back to reply to the other wonderful posts later on...

Love BB

ps, jill...I forgot to mention above, thanks for caring! (((((Jill))))

Thank you starfishy, for your lovely support, as always...your words are so camling and reassuring, and yes, I do feel he is a safe pair of hands. (((((Starfish))))))

I was just remembering that my guru T once wrote to me in an email that "it is a constant temptation for people in my field to go a little bit crazy themselves, and start to think they are God almighty Himself." He also said: "but if that were ever to happen, a mind as sharp as yours would pick up on it immediately- and let me know." I do not know what to make of this statement, now that I am remembering it... ?????? WTF?

SG, I could never take anything from you as pressure...you are always so supportive and kind, no matter what, and I really appreciate your happiness for me. It's really generous of you, considering everything you have been through. Thank you my friend. And yes, you hit the nail on the head, it is exactly like no longer having to "walk on eggshells." Trying not to break the eggshells... it's nice to be relaxed about that. (((((SG)))))

Liese, thank you too for the consistent support and help- yeah, it's true that if I contact him it should be from a position of strength... not need. I'm just waiting to see what I decide. I still wonder about working with him, I really do. It feels very much like the right thing to do, most days. Like I will never be able to access my heart again, until or unless I see him. I know you understand this. (((((Liese))))

Monte you are not talking shit...everything you say makes sense. GuruT was available, though...just not in a way that I trusted because he offered too much email contact, and then withdrew it when it was too hard for him to follow through. I understood all of this, and was agreeable, but...that didn't matter to my emotions. Little BB, as you say- couldn't be comforted by the rational explanation that T told me he wouldn't be able to reply all the time, because most of the time, he did, anbd then when he didn't he never did...and...I just thought it was me doing stuff right, or doing stuff wrong, and getting rewarded/punished. I still think he should have understood that dynamic and had consistent rules about emailing, that he could consistently live up to. Yes, and all the other stuff...for example my H reminded me recently that Guru once told me to "shut up.." when I was angry at him...it just wasn't the kind of thing *he* could get away with, since he touted total acceptance and lack of punishment, never scolding, etc... promised he would never get angry at me no matter *what* I did, and so on.. idk. No big deal...but- mixed messages. arg. there I go again. obsessing. Thank you Monte for understanding.

AG, your response was so helpful...I have read it a couple of times and got more out of it, but it's deep. You said:

quote:

When someone needs us, especially a therapist who isn't supposed to, it gives us power in the relationship. In a healthy therapeutic relationship, where the T doesn't need anything, we can often feel powerless, that there is nothing KEEPING them there. We can be painfully aware that they can walk away and not be very affected. And if we have never felt loved that can feel REALLY scary.

I got scared when I read this because I suddenly realized that since Cowboy clearly doesn't need anything from me- is the very reason that I actually *don't* have feelings of attachment or transference or whatever for him. I just feel a nice friendly unemotional kind of thing. But it doesn't bother me at all that isn't affected by me. It's a relief. But-It was agonizing (right off the bat) when I felt that way with GuruT. don't get me wrong...I would be sad if Cowboy terminated me...but since I don't affect him, it wouldn't be because of feelings for him, but because it would make me feel really hopeless. He's a nice guy, I like him, he's helping, sure...but I don't feel in any way attached, and I can't imagine doing. And it's because of that- you pinpointed it- he doesn't need me. Guru said the same thing, though- that the relationship was painful to me because he didn't need anything from me- so why did it feel like he did? It used to make me with confusion and pain. In fact Guru could have written your post, truly, that's what freaks me out about this whole thing. It's *so* confusing.

quote:

He held out a promise of meeting those needs. The problem is that while we can find what we need to heal within therapy, we can't go back and meet all those needs. One of the reasons that boundaries are SO important in therapy is so that a T doesn't hold out that promise. As unbelievably painful as it can be facing the loss of not being able to go back and get everything we should have, it's not nearly as devastating as being told we can have only to failed once again. I think that Guru Ts faulty boundaries held out that promise and what you are longing for are to get those needs met.

This really resonates, for me AG. So much. But when I have tried to discuss just this dynamic with Guru (since he told me to tell him what I need and everything that was on my mind) he denied, denied, denied and said I was projecting. Oh, it messed my head. It really messed my head. I still feel totally crazy, just thinking about it. AG, thank you so much for clarifying a million things in your post. Now my task seems to be, accepting the truth in what you say. ((((((Aglet))))))xx

I fear that I am unable to form healthy attachments. I fear that I am totally damaged goods, that I'm dead, that I have absolutely nothing to offer anyone, that I am like an infant. that I am just a huge, gaping bucket of needs that can never be filled, and that I make relationships impossible with those unreasonable needs, so I *may not* be authentically who I am- and survive a relationship. I feel really sorry for my husband because of the little that I bring to the relationship, and the large amount that I take. He is depleted because of me. How can I heal this now, without Guru T to experience and explore it with? It's like...needing to be nurtured in order to be able to *feel.* I guess I really was trying to fix the dynamic I grew up with, with Guru. I *needed to!* Why would a person have a drive like that within them, I wonder. if it cannot ever be fulfilled? It's frustrating. Frustration neurosis, I read somewhere. I feel like- in spite of how great Cowboy is- I've really run aground. I hope I am wrong.

I'm sorry this turned out so long- again!

bb, yes, i agree. until we get that self esteem filled to a certain level, the frustration can't be helpful. and what is frustrating, is that, at least in my case, and possibly yours as well, they see the house of cards and the track record of success and assume the self esteem is intact, and just go to step two. i dunno, this positive acceptance stuff is hard to come by. compliments just don't come forth too often.

i like what ag said. that powerless motive IS so true, and something i have never put into words like she did. it seemed to hit a note with you, too.

bb, i hear your emptiness and frustration, and that gaping hole that feels like it can never be filled. i do relate so much to that. i have said and felt those very words. that all i do is take, take take. and i have nothing to give. but, (sorry, i hate 'buts') i have to say, reading what you said, while i have been there, the depletion, i think it can be filled. the, again, frustrating thing, is, it takes time. and a good t. which i pray cowboy t is, sounds like you have confidence he is!!

oh, the damaged goods statement. bb, yep, i know that. me? the bad seed. but all we can do is improve from that point. it can't get worse. and i know you know you have plenty to offer. look, you got off the computer as your baby needed to go to bed.

for me, i discount all i do do , and focus on what is lacking. we gotta turn that around.

and lastly, i know i am not much help, but, reading your last paragraph, and one year into t with a good t...i have grown from that place. slowly. not through, by any means. but, i am not there anymore. thank God. if it is possible for me, it is for you. and while i am cyclothymic, i am not reaching down as low as i used to. and i was SURE it was not possible for me.

and look at YOU, you contribute a heck of alot more to others on this forum than i do. you DO have lots to offer others. y'no??

time, bb. the hardest thing to have. patience. yuk. i would rather anyone tell me anything other than that. i agree. but, looking back?? as frustrating as it is. it is true.

xxoo, hang in there.

by the way, my son is playing blackbird on the guitar, and i NEVER realized what a beautiful song this is. i think of you, and now understand more fully your name. mmmmmmm. fly free!! jill