quote:

I have this notion that I’m in therapy with the goal of getting rid of the needs and wants. That everything I am doing is all to ultimately stop needing and wanting.

I've wondered for months and months what exactly compelled me to seek out therapy. I knew that there was something out of place, that there was something I wasn't pleased with. I still don't know exactly why, but I think that you just helped me figure it out! There was something I wanted, something I needed and craved, and since I didn't know how to get it, or what it even was, I entered therapy to get rid of the thoughts in my head that desired whatever "it" was.

What's scary about all of it, though, is that I'm discovering MORE wants and needs.

I don't quite understand therapy (if I ever did), so perhaps somebody could answer my question. Is it possible to have some needs met in therapy?
I thought that maybe therapy will fix me and I will get rid of my desperate need to be loved and cared for and to love somebody in a childish way.
I understand that I can't have all I need, but can I have something?

quote:

Later this evening I was reading some posts on another forum when I was suddenly hit with the recognition - that he was actually modifying his behaviour to please me, doing it because it’s something I’d wanted and had effectively asked for and that totally freaked me out. I suddenly had this really frightening image that in x amount of time down the track he was suddenly going to withdraw and change his behaviour back again claiming that it was countertransference and that he’d only done it because I’d been manipulating to get my demands met and that the moment he realized this he realized that he’d given in to countertransference and shouldn’t have been giving me what I demanded.

Lamplighter that is a MAJOR insight you came to. Yes, you are supposed to learn in therapy how to ask for what you need (within reason ) and you will find that it is very possible to have your needs met! This is the safest place to learn this lesson and to experience what it feels like when it does happen (feels damn good huh? ) It is also the place to find out what happens if you do ask for something that your T cannot grant you.... BUT...you will have the opportunity to discuss it safely and find out why he can't meet this particular need. Therapy is a place to experiment with needs and wants and in trying to get a semblance of things we did not get as kids. This is the place where it really is all about YOU.

On the other side of this is something I still struggle with and I have lately discussed this with my T. I always have the feeling that what he gives me I can only have for a little while and then... BAMM! he takes it away from me... especially if he figures out somehow that what he gave me is really important to me! My T would do somethiing that would make me feel incredibly cared for or happy and I would be afraid to let him know because I was convinced he was going to take it back from me. That he would somehow come to the conclusion that I really did not DESERVE to have it in the first place. Sometimes what I felt like was him taking something back was just him forgetting to do it or not thinking it was helping me or working for me. So I finally got up the nerve to tell him (very tearfully I might add) about these fears. He was visibly upset with the conclusion I had drawn. He has since started once again doing some of the things I had feared he decided I didn't deserve.

The key to progress in therapy is the ability and courage to verbalize what is on your mind to your T. They really can't read minds!

TN

I was thinking about needs, and why it's so hard to understand whether or not we are supposed to get them met in therapy.

I guess as TN is saying, some of our needs can get met in therapy and some can't, and the only way to find out which is which is to try (ouch) - because what can and can't be met is different even with different therapists.

I think one of the big jobs of childhood is to learn that we can provide some things for ourselves, we can get some things from other people, and some things we just have to let go of (where is that &#^%@ pony, already?).

This is hard to learn because it's complex, and along the way I think kids spend a lot of time drawing the wrong conclusion from individual instances ("I can do EVERYTHING myself!" "My Daddy can fix EVERYTHING for me" "Nobody will EVER help me so I'll NEVER ask", "I need EVERYTHING I want" "I don't deserve ANYTHING" etc).

When neglect, trauma, abuse or just plain difficult circumstances enter the equation the stakes get very high. It's really important to get this right, because our physical and/or emotional survival depend on it (for a little kid, these are pretty much one and the same). So we take whichever answer we have and we latch on to it, and we stop trying out other stuff. And we miss out on heaps because we can't try other ways of dealing with individual situations - we can't evaluate the situation, make a guess and see what happens - instead we just use our 'default' setting. and then we hold on to our default setting till adulthood, or until it's safe enough to learn something different.

I went through grad school without asking ANYBODY for ANYTHING. It was incredibly difficult, painful and isolating, and I missed out on a lot of important professional knowledge and experience because of it. Slowly I'm finding it can be safe to ask.

J

In my case, I could not ask for things as a child because my mother would always be hysterical about something and if I asked for anything it would set her off. I never wanted to draw any attention to myself, better to survive under the radar and unnoticed.

I think part of my confusion as a child as to what my needs were and how to get them met came from being forced into being externally focused all the time. When you are in dangerous situation you need to put all your focus into what is happening around you, you need to be hypervigilant and focus on protecting yourself. I never had the opportunity to focus internally to even indentify what my needs were.. .I was so busy just trying to keep myself safe.

What I am experiencing now is the safety of the therapeutic relationship which enables me to relax my guard (a little not totally... I'm still scanning for danger) enough to find some space and energy to focus inward and learn who I am and what I need.

TN

quote:

It has never occurred to me that any of my needs and wants could actually BE MET. I just assumed that I had to admit to them, feel them, own them in order to experience the impossibility of ever getting them met, deal with the anger and grief of unmet needs and get on with living without those childish needs and wants. It never occurred to me that a therapist actively meeting some of my needs and wants could actually be part of the process.

L

LL,
It's a little redundant for me to add to this thread because the discussion has been great and you've gotten so much great feedback but what you said really resonated with me.

I found this to be one of the most confusing things about therapy, that I could get my needs met so that I could heal and that therapy wouldn't be enough. When I complained to my T about the boundaries and how frustrating they would be (sometimes weekly I might add), that I longed so desperately for things I couldn't have, he would regularly tell me he understood my frustration that of course, therapy wasn't enough. When he said that I would be thinking "then what the $%^% am I doing here then?"

There is an ambivalence at the heart of therapy and you've identified it. (I agree with TN that you've made a MAJOR breakthrough). The truth is that when we're small our attachment figures are supposed to help us identify and understand our needs as well as teach us what we need to do to get them met. At the base of all that should be that they are attuned and responsive enough that we experience the world as a place where you can EXPECT that your needs will be met. None of this happened in the kinds of childhoods we had. I know for me that the pain of not having my needs met got so bad that I decided that if my needs couldn't be met, the problem wasn't the people failing to meet them, it was the needs. So I decided to stop having them. I saw feeling needy as a dangerous, horrible thing because it ONLY led to pain.

That's the part you can fix in therapy. My T has provided a trustworthy, stable, consistent care upon which I could depend while being safe enough, as TN mentioned above, that I could express my needs for care and understanding and acceptance. As well as teach me to regulate all the emotions that I had never been taught to handle. Those are all things my T can give me. It took my T a LONG time to convince me that it was alright that I get in touch with him between sessions. He finally had to practically yell at me that it was actually theraputic and very important. That my instinct was to move away when I was in pain or feeling my needs, but that's wrong. Human beings are meant to move towards others to get their needs met. So it was important that when I needed help or reassurance that I ask for it, and experience having my needs met. There were literally times I would call my T and tell him, I just needed to know he was there. And he would reassure me that he was and it was good I called. This was healing in that I learned I mattered, I was worth listening to and that when I asked I often got what I asked for.

On the other hand (you knew there would be an "on the other hand" right?) not all the unmet needs of childhood can now be met. We can take things in and make them a part of ourselves in childhood in a way that we can't as adults. In some ways and in some areas, that time has passed and the door of opportunity has closed and cannot be re-opened no matter how much we or our therapist would like to be able to do that. So the boundaries are there so that our Ts can be "cruel to be kind." My T is VERY careful to never hold out the hope of giving me something he knows its impossible to give. Some losses are just that, losses. There are needs that can't be met now, and those need to be grieved and let to heal. So the "optimal frustration" of therapy is what points us to those losses so that we can at last feel the pain that we didn't have the resources we needed to face then, so that we can heal and go on. My T talked about it being like someone burying a spade in a tree, the tree grows around the spade and thrives but the spade is always there. So we learn to live with those losses and open ourselves up to live a full life.

So bottom line, my T unhesitatingly and freely provides me with anything I ask that he is capable of giving and believes is for my good. He withholds anything that he thinks would damage me (even when it would make his life easier) and never offers anything he can't give. But he is patient and understanding to hear all my feelings about how I feel not getting what I want. And that allows me to heal.

We once went through a five week gap because our vacations ran into each other. Let me tell you that was a LONG five weeks, especially as there were several stressful situations going on in my family and I was seeing my mother for the first time in several years. I emailed my T twice near the end of the gap and didn't get a reply for either email. When I saw him for my first session back, he told me that he didn't respond because they didn't need a response. I kind of shrugged it off but near the end of the session, my T actually asked me where the anger was? I didn't really know what to say. And then on the drive home I realized I was FURIOUS. So much so that I ended up taking our couples session the next night and going alone (my husband offered). When we started talking about how I felt I realized that the break had been so long and I had missed my T so much that what I wanted was to be able to have a warm fuzzy "gosh I missed you" and be able to talk about our vacations etc. and what I got was detached T. It took me a while to get it out but I was some kind of PISSED. And my T stepped up the detachment as a deliberate provocation and asked if that was what I meant (I told him later I almost threw a pillow at him. He thanked me for my restraint. ) He really pushed me for how I felt and what I wanted and I ended up telling him quite vehemently (ok, I was bordering on screaming) that I was sick and tired of him sitting behind his boundaries while I had throw my heart into the middle of the room and expose everything. That I hated that yawning chasm between his recliner and my seat and that I didn't want him to help me to analyze it or understand it, I wanted him to f---ing get up (my language gets bad when I'm angry) and come over and hold me and tell me everything was going to be alright. And he said to me, that he could do that but in the long run it wouldn't help because then I wouldn't deal with the pain of what I had missed and I wouldn't heal. To which, I replied, I kid you not, that sometimes I wished he would just f---ing lie to me. (This from the woman who once told him that I really appreciated that he wouldn't lie to me that I would rather be honestly hurt by him and know I could trust what he said.) It didn't change anything but it was such a relief to finally just blurt that out since I had been wanting that for a long time. His response was to completely understand why I wanted that so much and actually that I had every right to want that. So even though I couldn't get what I wanted, I got what I needed, which was to be heard. He has explained to me on so many occasions that while the withholding when I was young was someone else putting their needs first, the withholding now was about caring about me and what was good for me. And he knew that would trigger the feelings of not being worthy or deserving but that wasn't true. It eventually sunk in.

I'm sorry, I meant this to be MUCH shorter. I think I'm doing a lot of processing because of working through the ending. I hope some of this helps, I found all of this incredibly difficult to understand and grasp and it's really hard to express it even now that I get it.

AG

I just want to correct/refine the wording of some of what I said above, after rethinking it in the light of what TN said, and my own experience.

I wrote that "along the way I think kids spend a lot of time drawing the wrong conclusion from individual instances." But a lot of the time in unhealthy homes the conclusions are actually the right conclusions. It's really NOT safe to try out different stuff, to ask or want or need, and that is proved by repeated experience, or by individual very dangerous experiences.

What I was trying to get at is that in good circumstances, kids have the freedom and safety to explore different options, and rather than having to stick to one conclusion, they can try out different ideas and behaviours and modify their conclusions. In bad circumstances what happens is not 'latching on' out of error, but just doing the only thing that works or makes sense.

What I wrote in the earlier post undermined the intelligence and necessity of those childhood decisions, and I don't want to do that.

TN, I developed that external focus too. For me it's automatic to try to think via my perception of other people's perceptions, feelings, experiences, rather than my own. Convoluted, exhausting, and often kind of inaccurate. And I think it's deeply connected to those feelings of emptiness that come up. Sometimes when I'm going all co-dependent, emptiness feels like "selflessness". It is a sort of selflessness but in the worst sense - having no core - and it's connected to a whole lot of really problematic behaviours. Rescuing, lack of boundaries, not taking care of my own responsibilities, etc. Blah.

J

Thanks everyone for the great replies. Lots of things I’d like to say but right now I’m freaking out and True North has raised some things that key straight into that so I’m referring to TN’s post specifically here.

quote:

feels damn good huh?

NO! (Thank you Dragonfly for the instructions on emoticons!)

It’s totally freaked me out. I’ve been plummeting big time since I posted this thread - I’m so suspicious that T isn’t being authentic about this - his behaviour was so out of character that I’m freaking out about his being inconsistent, that I can’t trust him at all now because the only reason he was acting the way he did was because I’d been explicitly explaining what it was about his way of relating to me that was making me feel unheard and unlistened to - so I feel as if he’s doing it just to go along with me, and not because it’s his natural spontaneous way of relating as a therapist. So I’m feeling really spun out because I don’t know who he is anymore, he’s being inconsistent and while the way he’s been so far hasn’t exactly been what I’ve been needing, nevertheless for him to suddenly flip over into behaving in a totally different way really scares me.

On one level feeling that he’s doing it only to please me has made me experience him as weak and untrustworthy and on a deeper really freaky level I’m feeling that to suddenly start being solicitous towards me means he wants something from me. I am really standing on shifting ground here and all sorts of black fears are taking over my head.

On a rational level I’m trying to tell myself that yes he is giving me something I’ve been asking for (well, demanding is a more accurate description at least that’s how I now experience what I’ve been doing) and that I ought to feel good about that but my emotional responses are screaming red alert! red alert!

quote:

I always have the feeling that what he gives me I can only have for a little while and then... BAMM! he takes it away from me... especially if he figures out somehow that what he gave me is really important to me!

This is exactly what I was feeling which I tried to describe in my first post - that I’ll be sitting there feeling wow I’ve been given something I really want how wonderful and just when I’m getting complacent about it and truly believing it’s possible to get whammo he’ll suddenly change his mind and withdraw it and say oh well actually no I shouldn’t have given it to you in the first place, mistake (meaning - you don’t deserve it after all). I also go one step further and experience it as a kind of trick to make me admit how much I really do want it, and that I can’t retreat behind my usual defences because I’ll have been caught ‘red handed’ so to speak by taking whatever is being given as if it’s ok and normal and deserved.

TN I’m glad you were able to talk to your T about it and I find it REALLY interesting that he is now doing those things again (which I’m reading to mean that he stopped but since you asked for them he has been happy to give them again?) How do you feel about that? That’s what would have me spinning out because I’d see it as not genuine, as its having to be my asking for it in the first place to get it and therefore I’d feel he’s just doing it like a sop to the needy child or whatever. Sorry I’m not being very coherent here I’m really spinning out quite badly over this whole thing.

I’m so scared about this that I’m not even going to talk to him about it until after our next session. I’ve got the sense that if I say any of this to him I’d be pre-empting what HE should be doing and that I’d never then know whether he is being genuine or not. I really really need him to reassure me that it’s genuine and not how I'm interpreting it, but I need him to tell me that before I can ask for reassurance because OF COURSE he would just reassure me and I’d never believe it. Does that make any sense or am I talking crap here as usual?

Lamplighter

I am sorry things are so hard for you. No you are not 'talking crap'. I cannot add much as the responses here have been so good as usual,but just a thought from me about consistency and maybe why it might feel so hard when things change for us in therapy.

My T once pointed out that my childood traumas were constant in their content and that however awful they were, I knew what to expect. When they changed, which they did from time to time, then it became even tougher as I suddenly didn't know what to expect or what they might lead to. A sort of better the devil you know scenario.

She is pretty constant, probably one of the few constant people I have experienced and trusted, apart from a few close friends, my husband and children. I wouldn't want to think she has ever behaved in a way to please me BUT if we have talked about something that I have found difficult, we might discuss how she could help and do or say something differently. But I am sure she wouldn't do it unless she felt it would be helpful for me. So for your T to keep changing his mind and giving and then withdrawing, it must feel really hard. For me it would definitely be triggering and I would also feel wary and mistrusting. Maybe like you are being punished when it is withdrawn and of course you have done nothing wrong.

Don't know if that is relevant or helps. Sorry it's been tough for you Lamplighter. Can see why you might leave it til the end of your session, but do try and tell him if you can. He needs to know how you are feeling.

starfish

quote:

TN I’m glad you were able to talk to your T about it and I find it REALLY interesting that he is now doing those things again (which I’m reading to mean that he stopped but since you asked for them he has been happy to give them again?) How do you feel about that? That’s what would have me spinning out because I’d see it as not genuine, as its having to be my asking for it in the first place to get it and therefore I’d feel he’s just doing it like a sop to the needy child or whatever. Sorry I’m not being very coherent here I’m really spinning out quite badly over this whole thing.

Hi LL, I'm sorry you are in such a bad state over all of this. I don't have time for a long answer right now, I'm bogged down with a paper to write for school and I have guests arriving for Easter week....but

You asked me how I felt about my T granting me once again those things I felt he took away. It makes me very happy and my T even expressed to me that he feels glad that he could do something for me that helps me. I think the reason why I can accept it in the way in which it was meant (helpful, caring) is that my T will never do anything that he does not WANT to do and he won't do something for me just because I ask for it. And he has assured me over and over that he will never lie to me, not even to make me feel better. That has been monumental to me because my Dad would lie to me ALL the time and I never knew when to believe him and I would be so disappointed by him many times over. So when my T does do something for me I know that it's because he feels he can and that it is in my best interest. I have asked for things that I did not get... but we have discussed it and even though I may not like it, he has been very reasonable in helping me to understand his reasons. No one gets everything they ask for but that should not stop you from asking.

I think it all comes back to trust and feeling safe with your T. One has to have at least a modicum of this as the relational foundation upon which to build.

TN

Hi Lamplighter,

Yours is one of those posts where I’m just chomping at the bit to respond, because I know so very well how you are feeling, and like the others I want to encourage you to talk to your T about it. On the other hand, my example has to do with my former T, and I don’t want you to think I’m saying your situation will turn out the same, because I really don’t think that at all. I actually want to share my experience so I can contrast it with yours. So I will add the disclaimer that if any part or all of this isn’t helpful, please just disregard it.

I think there might be two different types of situations where a T changes what they are doing in response to something a patient says. One type is where the patient specifically asks for something from the T within the therapeutic boundaries, and the T gives it. The other type is where a patient talks about how they are feeling, and the T changes what they are doing in order to make the patient feel better. I think the first type is okay, but the second type is “gratification” and is cause for concern.

From what you have said, your situation sounds like the first type. You’ve told him you want him to listen and not interrupt. I think that’s a reasonable request well within the therapeutic boundaries. And he’s finally trying to do that. However, it sounds like he changed without explaining it to you - maybe because he didn’t think he needed to. Still, it might have helped if he had prefaced his change in behavior with an explanation, as in “You’ve asked me several times to listen better and not interrupt, and from now on I’m going to try to do a better job of that.” It makes sense to me that at times, T's realize they could be doing a better job, based on feedback from their patients, and so they change for the better along the way. It really sounds like that is what is going on here. But any change in our T's behavior is bound to make us nervous. So I really hope you can talk with him about how you are feeling so you can clear it up.

My situation was the second type. After I told my T about the feelings I was developing for him, I also told him about my fears of what he might be thinking about me, and how afraid of him I was becoming, especially between sessions. I described a few symptoms of anxiety I had been experiencing and told him how I’d considered bolting several times, because I was sure that he regretted setting up the individual therapy with me, and that he secretly wished he could get rid of me.

What I was hoping for is that we would look at why I was so afraid of him...what in ME was making me afraid. I thought this was “negative transference”, a term I had found in my reading. I wasn’t asking him to act any differently, I was assuming that the fear was coming from somewhere in me and that I was projecting it on to him. I just wanted to be honest about how it felt so he could help me understand where my fears really were coming from.

Instead, for the next several sessions, he was much friendlier and almost eager to please. On the one hand, I enjoyed the “new” him, of course...but it also freaked me out because I had not asked for him to change. Changing his behavior in response to my feelings seemed like a form of taking my feelings personally. It had the effect of confirming to me that my feelings really DID have something to do with him. In changing his behavior, he seemed to be confirming to me that there really WAS something to be afraid of. That he really WAS judging me and was now trying to do a better job of covering it up. So I was afraid it was just an act, and eventually it would be withdrawn, at exactly the moment I decided to trust it. At the time, I wrote in my journal “So is this the real “you”, and you’ve let your guard down...or is the other “you” the real you, and right now you’re just play-acting?” But I was way too afraid to ask. And from what I know now, I don’t think asking would have helped much, because there were other things going wrong in that situation as well.

Now I want to make it very clear one more time that I think your situation is different than mine was. But I also wanted to let you know that I totally understand your fears, they all make perfect sense to me and I certainly don’t think you are talking “crap”. Any change in our T’s behavior is bound to set the alarms off inside of us. And I really think if you talk to your T about how you are feeling, that it will clear things up between the two of you. TN gave a beautiful example of how that kind of communication can help strengthen the therapeutic relationship. Good luck, and please let us know how it turns out.

SG

Thanks so much BB, True North and Strummergirl for your supportive replies. Very much appreciated! Strummergirl your explanation of the dynamic between you and your former T and the way you divided the stuff I’m struggling with into two types made things really clear. (I really relate to the fact that you had told your former T about how you felt in order to have it all understood as part of the therapeutic process - to then see such a change in the T, I know for me, would totally flip me out and challenge everything I believe therapy to actually be about.) I’m glad you trusted your judgement on that one and got out!

Well update so far - had another session today but didn’t specifically talk about the stuff in this thread. It was a bit of a test for him really, in that I wanted to see whether he genuinely understood what I was saying before I was prepared to be so open about how I was interpreting his responses last session.

In fact he inadvertently made something so clear to me today that made my interpretation of his responses from last session totally redundant. :hangs head in stupidity and shame:

His change in behaviour had nothing to do with me, or rather was not a direct response to my asking for anything, but was the result of what he had already explained to me a couple of sessions ago as being countertransference. Only at the time I didn’t know what the hell he was talking about, it’s only today the penny dropped. So the suddenly asking me questions, going out of his way to clarify my position - was the result of something he had recognized in himself and not at all to do with giving to me.

While that actually makes me feel a WHOLE LOT BETTER in that he’s not suddenly adapting his responses solely to ‘please’ me (Strummergirl you are dead right, if that were the case I too would have expected him to explain that that was what he was doing, so that I could know 100% that it’s something he was actually freely ‘giving’ me) - at the same time I now feel that I am a big fool and being really arrogant to think even for a moment that he would have modified his responses for my sake. Make that, I now feel totally undeserving and pathetic all over again and the whole idea that I could actually get some of my needs and wants met in therapy has turned back and bit me right on the nose. Actually it’s not funny at all, I feel as if I’ve shown myself to be the arrogant undeserving bad selfish self obsessed overweening self that I believe everyone else knows me to be and now I’ve just proven it beyond doubt. It’s very hard to live with that experience of myself at the best of times, to have it exposed like this is not doing my mind any good at all.

There is an upside though to counter that and it’s that today’s session has given me quite a lot of faith in him and I think I can probably talk to him next session about my misinterpretation and how it’s making me feel. Also all the different things that I had insights into after last session, are still valid fodder for the therapeutic process and now I feel I can bring them all up and talk to him about them. So despite the fact that I feel like a real f***wit at the moment on the whole things are pretty positive. I might just have found a proper therapist at last, just like you guys have.

Thanks SO MUCH everyone for the support you’ve given me with this. It has really helped me to be able to post my stuff and have people respond to it so supportively.

p.s. I can’t BELIEVE this has all happened in the space of only four days. To veer from one feeling state to another in such short spaces of time... gah!

Hi Lamplighter,

quote:

While that actually makes me feel a WHOLE LOT BETTER in that he’s not suddenly adapting his responses solely to ‘please’ me (Strummergirl you are dead right, if that were the case I too would have expected him to explain that that was what he was doing, so that I could know 100% that it’s something he was actually freely ‘giving’ me) - at the same time I now feel that I am a big fool and being really arrogant to think even for a moment that he would have modified his responses for my sake. Make that, I now feel totally undeserving and pathetic all over again and the whole idea that I could actually get some of my needs and wants met in therapy has turned back and bit me right on the nose. Actually it’s not funny at all, I feel as if I’ve shown myself to be the arrogant undeserving bad selfish self obsessed overweening self that I believe everyone else knows me to be and now I’ve just proven it beyond doubt. It’s very hard to live with that experience of myself at the best of times, to have it exposed like this is not doing my mind any good at all.

I was struck by this, how you were hit with the undeserving feeling and the self-punishing no matter what the outcome was. I relate to it. I think it's the lie of the way you were treated when you were little - maybe you were blamed and hurt no matter what happened and told it was because of your actions/thoughts. That's how scapegoating works.

But you had no way of actually knowing what he was thinking until he explained it. I believe it's completely human and fine to have speculated on an interpretation and had some feelings in response to something new happening in this important relationship. You are in this relationship to feel things and learn about your feelings. You deserve some gentleness and kindness about it.

J

Thank you Jones for your caring reply.

It’s interesting what you say about scapegoating - for sure my scuttling back into the familiarity of being undeserving etc had got to be more to do with the past than just what’s going on between T and me. I just don’t remember any past connections so it always feels as if I’m experiencing being undeserving (and the rest!) based on what’s happening now. Anyhow I think I feel positive enough (for now at least) to be able to open up about my misinterpretation next session. That will be ‘interesting’.

Strummergirl by the way I got it wrong I’m sorry - I remembered after I’d written that comment about you following your own judgement and getting out that in fact it was your T who pulled the plug on your relationship. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to negate your awful experience.

{{{{{Lamplighter}}}}}

I just cringed at the names you call yourself for daring to think someone might care enough about you to change what they are doing and meet some of your needs. But like Jones, I do this to myself too. And I know I deserve it (sarcasm), but it looks so much different when someone else is doing it to themselves. I really want to wrench that stick out of your hand (the one you're beating yourself with) and throw it as far as I can. Will you allow me to do that? Pretty please?

If I understood you correctly, you thought your T was trying to do a better job of listening to you. That's basic courtesy, isn't it? Why does that make you bad? Please, please stop beating yourself up with words like stupidity, shame, fool, arrogant, undeserving, bad, selfish, self-obsessed and overweening. Wanting someone to listen to you does not make you any of those things. Especially when that person is your T, someone whose job it is to listen to you and help you see yourself more clearly. It really is okay to expect him to listen to you and to not interrupt you, even if he sometimes has to put forth extra effort to do so. I really do not think you've done anything wrong in thinking he was doing this.

Forgive me but I do not quite understand what he is getting at with the talk about his countertransference. Maybe he was trying to explain why he changed in terms of his own issues, instead of within the context of your therapy and your needs. Which is maybe part of the reason why you turned all of this back on yourself. But I'm wondering if he didn't really mean it that way...maybe he only put it that way because he doesn't know how hard you are being on yourself. I really hope you can talk to him about this, and that it becomes clear that he really is doing this with your best interests in mind. And that you really do deserve to have your needs met. Because you do!!

We all do.

SG

In case you haven't figured it out yet, a big part of my problem is that I analyze everything to death. And now I have all your thoughts to chew on as well as my own. Don't you feel lucky? Okay, just one more thought, and then I'll drop it (really I promise):

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
So the suddenly asking me questions, going out of his way to clarify my position - was the result of something he had recognized in himself and not at all to do with giving to me.

Is it possible that it was both? He recognized something in himself that was getting in the way of his giving you what you need? He cared enough about you to examine himself and correct himself so that you would benefit? What other reason would he have to examine and correct himself, other than to meet your needs? So he took the responsibility on himself, but his motivation had everything to do with you. So I really do think you were right the first time.

I know, the only way to be sure is to talk to him about it. I just want to throw that stick as far as possible so you can't find it.

SG

Hi Strummergirl

A kindred spirit eh? I too analyze everything to death. I hate it sometimes when I’ve got an insight or an understanding and by the time I’ve finished thinking about it and puzzling over it and turning it upside down and inside out there’s nothing left of it but a few meaningless words. I console myself with the thought that it’s my survival mechanism and very very necessary for me to KNOW things to really understand them, and thinking, rationalizing, analyzing is the only means I currently have to understand. The upside is that that is a very effective way of disconnecting from emotions. The downside is that that is a very effective way of disconnecting from emotions.

Oh and thank you for chucking that stick away for me. I have a whole bundle more of them here, plenty more where that one came from

quote:

Forgive me but I do not quite understand what he is getting at with the talk about his countertransference. Maybe he was trying to explain why he changed in terms of his own issues, instead of within the context of your therapy and your needs. Which is maybe part of the reason why you turned all of this back on yourself. But I'm wondering if he didn't really mean it that way...maybe he only put it that way because he doesn't know how hard you are being on yourself. I really hope you can talk to him about this, and that it becomes clear that he really is doing this with your best interests in mind.

Nothing to forgive! I really appreciate people giving feedback on stuff I write here, and asking questions is in my opinion one of the best forms of communication. Funny because asking questions is what the whole issue is all about between me and T. You are absolutely right in what you say above - after my last session with him it was pretty clear that he was actually being consistent and in fact acting in my best interests. I will talk to him next session about it all, I didn’t last session but left him with another volume of stuff I’d written about it, and am glad I did so because otherwise I wouldn’t have thought it worth bringing up (don’t feel as spun out about it all anymore.)

quote:

Is it possible that it was both? He recognized something in himself that was getting in the way of his giving you what you need? He cared enough about you to examine himself and correct himself so that you would benefit? What other reason would he have to examine and correct himself, other than to meet your needs? So he took the responsibility on himself, but his motivation had everything to do with you. So I really do think you were right the first time.

You are again dead right. Hm did I just say that? That means that he was doing it for me, not necessarily doing something solely because I’d asked for it (which is what gave me the creepy experience I had after last session) but actually as a result of my telling him endlessly that I didn’t feel understood.

The trouble is I’m very good at understanding all of this stuff rationally, but the internal emotional experience carries on in its set in concrete way regardless. Groan. Anyway, may I give you my sticks to look after for me? I think you would know exactly what to do with them! Thanks SG :hug:

quote:

That means that he was doing it for me, not necessarily doing something solely because I’d asked for it (which is what gave me the creepy experience I had after last session) but actually as a result of my telling him endlessly that I didn’t feel understood.

Oooooh, okay...I think I'm finally getting it now! You were already saying this. *can you see the light bulb slowly lighting up over my head?* (I know you didn't mean it that way...I'm just poking fun at myself because you really did say this before but I didn't get it)

quote:

Anyway, may I give you my sticks to look after for me? I think you would know exactly what to do with them!

I'd love to take those sticks off your hands! I'm going to sit down and enjoy a lovely bonfire, while I laugh some more at something else you said about over-analyzing:

quote:

The upside is that that is a very effective way of disconnecting from emotions. The downside is that that is a very effective way of disconnecting from emotions.

Exactly!!!

Why don't you sit with me a while and enjoy the fire? Anyone else want to join in? Feel free to bring more sticks for the fire. Who's bringing the marshmallows?

SG

Ooo I will join the bonfire party, have plenty of sticks from self-beating, plus some I can't yet part with. I've been away for a few days so just catching up and empathising with the emotions you're going through LL.

I can see how his change in behaviour must have thrown you - it would me too - but

[QUOTE] [His change in behaviour had nothing to do with me, or rather was not a direct response to my asking for anything, but was the result of what he had already explained to me a couple of sessions ago as being countertransference. Only at the time I didn’t know what the hell he was talking about, it’s only today the penny dropped. So the suddenly asking me questions, going out of his way to clarify my position - was the result of something he had recognized in himself and not at all to do with giving to me.

/QUOTE]
Maybe we don't expect for our Ts to show their thought processes to such an extent that they admit to countertransferance. I don't know, but it shows he's really reflecting on your relationship and how he can best change to help you more, rather than changing simply to please you, which might be harder and leave you with an expectation of what might happen next.

BB I can see where you are coming from with the running out of words thing. I too find the floaty stuff sometimes hard to articulate - says nothing about you, maybe you need to disconnect from some topics as a self protective mechanism (the blanking out bit) or maybe nobody has ever pressed you into trying to put certain thougts into words. I guess the obvious question is - have you told your T? Sometimes I am also in awe of some of the long well thought out responses here and feel I have little to contribute (where did I put my stick now? ) but please know that you have given me really supportive help on this forum - we just all have different strengths I guess.

starfish

Hey Blackbird I’m glad you posted - I wondered whether maybe you had thought better of posting in this thread after your previous comment (I was actually looking forward to hearing what thoughts you’d had when you wrote you didn’t have time right at that moment to say anything.) So I’m pleased you did post, and also as far as I’m concerned please don’t apologize for relating things from your own experience - I find that’s what so helpful and interesting about this forum, that it’s people’s own experience that makes things make sense to me. So more of yours please (that is, only if you feel you want to talk about it of course.)

Yes yes yes I find my tendency to rationalize everything really gets in the way of effective therapy, especially as my T has quite an intellectual approach (he’s essentially CBT based) and we can get into long verbal discussions about things that end up making me feel so disconnected that I come away from sessions like that thinking that was a bloody expensive waste of time!

About finding it hard to pin down the floaty stuff - I am exactly the same. Half the time in the moment I don’t even realize that something is going on in me and it’s only later I get a vague sense of unease or fear or feel bad without knowing why. If I left it to myself I’d never have any idea of what’s happening and wouldn’t be able to explain anything. That’s why writing has been so important to me.

After a session now I sit down and start writing the nuts and bolts of it (he said I said he did I did, I didn’t understand what he was on about, I wanted to say but didn’t… that sort of stuff and I find as I’m remembering and writing it suddenly I become aware of all sorts of things and start making all these connections, to things that bothered me to things I was feeling and didn’t know at the time, even to things that loom up from way back inside my head and memory. Mostly it’s just flashes and glimpses but because I’m writing spontaneously I can often put those flashes of feeling or understanding into words so at least I’ve got it in concrete form. Then I have something more tangible to think about (or more to the point, stuff I’d rather not know and not feel has suddenly become clear - ha ha that’s where intellectualizing it, as with words, actually cuts off the feeling or emotional understanding). So on the one hand writing it all out does help me clarify what’s going on in me, on the other hand it ultimately disconnects me from my own experience - but at least I’ve got an intellectual sense of it which I can then take to therapy and start talking about. Sometimes if I just know I won’t be able to explain what I’m on about verbally, I give my T pages of stuff I’ve written so he can then ask me questions about it and that gives me a springboard from which to express what would otherwise remain all hidden away inside me.

(Just read your post on the writing stuff to give to T thread and it sounds as if your T has interpreted your writing things out to him as an avoidance rather than as a means of trying to get things across to him. Hm.)

I can’t remember if you said you journal or not, but if you’re struggling with floaty stuff that you can’t pin down it might be worth trying out just writing whatever comes to your mind as you think about it without necessarily intending to give it to anyone else to read.

p.s. Ok I give up, what are smores?

p.p.s. Strummergirl, reserve me a ringside seat at that bonfire! Maybe we could all bring along our sticks and gleefully watch them burn to nothing.

Starfish

You’re right about not expecting our T’s to show their thought processes to such an extent that they will admit to countertransference. I think I just assumed that if ct was going on he would sort it out himself. So yeah that threw me too. I think on the whole though it was a good thing of him to do - because it keyed right into the one thing I’d been complaining about non-stop in nearly every session (not being understood), so it would have been worse if he’d changed without telling me why.

quote:

Sometimes I feel I have little to contribute (where did I put my stick now?)

Definitely that’s a stick to add to the bonfire! I love reading your posts and what gets me is that people all have different ways of saying what they mean and that’s just so much a reflection of who they are - I get to learn so much more precisely because of how different people express themselves. I also confess I’m fed up to the eye teeth with all my rationalizing and intellectualizing and using 50 words where 3 words would get the point across so much more honestly. So, hm yeah there’s another stick. Anyway, what I’m saying is that I reckon I’d get a lot further if I could just say whatever was on my mind in whichever way it was going to come out, instead of surrounding it with all this verbiage.

So please don’t feel intimidated or anything, please just keep posting

LL thankyou (((hug))). I write such short replies compared to others, I never feel they are useful.

I write heaps in journals though, but guess nobody sees those so can be braver and never tell my T about anthing I have written unless am prepared to show her cos she will always ask to see it and for me to do the reading of it too

Thank you all, it helps me to post here to feel a bit braver to share. Am sorry if I can't quite open up completely sometimes though.

starfish