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35 replies

Neglect

blackbirdblackbirdMember
may be triggery for some...

I've been thinking a lot lately about something weird that I am having a really hard time putting into words, or understanding at all. I thought maybe I would try to do it here, this will be the first time I really try to put this problem into words, and it feels almost impossible. Here goes. So I deal all the time with the feeling that *there is nothing wrong with me.* which, very oddly, gives me a strange vague sense of disappointment/fear. I really do not think, most of the time, that I am *really* depressed or that I have had a difficult childhood, or have a difficult marriage, or any of the rest of it. I have a deeply-rooted belief that it is all good, and everything in my experience seems to point to and validate this belief, that I am basically, a really lucky person who has it great. But T says no. So I try all the time to see, why? Can I see it his way...I MUST see it his way. I try and try. And I deep down do not believe that I need to be in therapy at all. But I can't get my life together, and there are concrete problems I deal with that scream loudly: *BB- get therapy!* So I struggle with this all the time. I can't even believe that what I am dealing with here is what they seem to typically call "denial." But weirdly, I want to believe I am in denial, and that I really *was* neglected, maybe abused, whatever-because then and only then I would be justified in seeing my T, and my SD, and getting their *care.* And because I *hope* I am in denial, and that I am really depressed, really in denial, really struggling because of the past like T says, that means I really am not. That it's all just an evil ploy on my part. Crazy making stuff. Because I want attention and care because of it, that makes none of the crap T is trying to get me to see even true, or something like that, idk. It just all feels so overblown to me, like I expect waaaaay to much out of life and that in fact I have always had it quite good.

So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care. I don't mean that I would literally run out and do something horrible, but that is the sense of it I hold inside, that I want things to have3 been horrible so that I deserve this care. And all of this makes me feel terribly, terribly guilty, and unjustified to be in therapy, like I am a liar, nothing bad ever really happened to me, I just had a normal past with mormal amounts of screwups in it, and everything is really actually quite fine and I am *just looking for attention.*

So, all of this hugely distracts me from the reality of what my T is trying to get me to look at, which is that, the past was far from what it should have been, and that I need to accept that reality. But the thing is, how can I be in denial-?- In fact, I cling to my hurt, and my pain, and I don't want to let it go, because it is the ONLY thing I have that makes me feel like someone could/should love me, or have tender feelings or care or sympathy for me. And I have felt this way for as long as I can remember. BB, the drama queen. So, I would much rather suffer, than be healed and not feel justified in looking for/feeling this type of care. This is really shameful for me. Why do I embrace the darkness? Because of this problem. How can I let myself be an ordinary person who functions without this terrible burden of pain? Why would I do or think *anything* in order to feel cared about? Why would I allow my life to be destroyed, just to feel a tiny spark of tenderness from my T, or some other authority figure? (I'm not saying that therapy is destroying my life, yet, I feel I *would* allow my life to be destroyed, even if that was in the balance) This is a very dark place for me. I don't care about ANYTHING when I am in this place except getting a spark of care. What is it about my *pain* that I don't want to let go of? It's like it defines me. I am (in my own mind) the person whose parents never loved her. And I want to believe this...and hang onto this...why? What is wrong with me? Or not wrong with me? Oh, it just makes me feel like I am ...creepy.Yet, I would never think that about anybody else who is experiencing this...I would be able to see that they are wounded and hurting. But not me. I am not that one, no, I am just *not strong enough.*

So I wonder, does this have more to do with the fact that my parents were kind of I don't know, just weird, or is it just me, being...a drama queen? Boy do I need the truth, here. It is hard for me to figure out...I need some honest answers about what abuse/neglect entails. I don't really know. I can always see both sides of it, and why they did things the way they did. For the record they were not abusive, nor were they particularly protective...and they were also weirdly over-protective. It is a strange, confusing situation for me...I don't have anything to put my finger on, and say aha, now there was abuse. Yet, I can say that I have felt brain-washed, or psychologically manipulated by my mom yeah, weirdly, too. And why do I want to know that, if it's true, anyways? Because then I will have a card to play, then I will have something to present to the world at large (as represented by my T) and say "there, see...I suffered all of this, so I deserve some recognition for that, and some sympathy and love." It's just irritating, and I hate myself for it. Why can't I let it go? I don't want to dismay or trigger, but my experience of my past is just "grow up, get over it, so what?" How can I beging to see that what seems like "great expectations" and huge idealism on my part, is possibly, potentially, perhaps...just a normal amount of love, as normally given in normal families?

BB
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strummergirlstrummergirlMember
Hi BB,

Wow, this is amazingly raw honesty, BB. Thank you for sharing this, you might not think it comes across clearly but it really did. I know you have been working to speak about this in other posts, but I don't think I really got what you were saying until just now (sorry I'm a little slow! Big Grin ).
quote:
So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care.

I've had thoughts like this all my life. Actually I would call them "rescue fantasies" for lack of a better term. They are many and varied. And when I got older I thought wow, I'm really weird for having "fantasies" like that.

But now I think I'm starting to see the underlying reason for them. The title you chose for this thread is perfect, I think that's exactly where the hunger for attention starts, is in neglect. And neglect is its own brand of crazy-making abuse for exactly this reason:
quote:
It is a strange, confusing situation for me...I don't have anything to put my finger on, and say aha, now there was abuse.

Exactly. How do you point to something that wasn't there? Abuse is horrible, no doubt about it. But so is a vacuum, for a child who is trying to learn who they are. In a vacuum we learn that our needs are not all that important, but of course they are still there, so it kind of makes sense that we'd long for the needs to be so much more obvious, so they would finally get met.
quote:
Because then I will have a card to play, then I will have something to present to the world at large (as represented by my T) and say "there, see...I suffered all of this, so I deserve some recognition for that, and some sympathy and love."

I think why we are in therapy, dear BB, is to heal to the point where we no longer believe that we must have a "card to play" in order to "earn" love. But the therapy itself is not a card we are playing. This is the faulty message that we learned in childhood, trying to lead us astray one more time. I think the real healing will come when we learn (in therapy) that we can reach out and ask for what we need, and receive it...and when we learn that enough times, then the pull toward "rescue fantasies" will fade away, because we will no longer believe that we need them. What do you think?

Hugs to you BB,
SG
jonesjonesMember
Dear BB,

This post touches me a lot because I identify with so much of it. I've felt so very similar to what you are describing here. I'm sorry that you are so caught in this seemingly intractable bind.

I think what's unsaid in this post is this message - "I am not worthy of love, care or attention the way that I am." That seems to be the accepted fact in this whole configuration (accepted by the self-judge, not by me or your T or your SD or others). I get this idea because if you DID consider yourself worthy just the way you are, then it would be okay to seek out care and attention *whether you were hurting or whether you were just feeling that you need to grow*. People need and want love, care, attention and (very often) growth. That's the way that it is.

But it seems like the only way you can excuse seeking out care and attention - the only way you can excuse yourself for being yourself and being a human - is if you are badly hurt.
I want to show you something I saw a little while ago while looking around: http://www.vancouvercounsellingservices.com/
This is Shrinklady's in-person counselling page. ALL of the therapists on this page have therapy themselves because it enriches their lives.

Well, you are allowed to do the same. Having said that, I get that resources are scarce, and maybe "personal growth" "shouldn't" be that high on the agenda when a family has other stuff to attend to.

But it is high on the agenda, because frankly, you ARE hurting. It hurts a great deal to believe that the only worthy thing about you is your pain, and to even then question whether the pain is legitimate. It hurts like hell. And it puts you in a position where you can't function to the best of your abilities. So while you are hurting, you are also hurting because you know you want to give your family and your life more but you just can't seem to. (See how you seeking out care is actually an act for the greater good, not selfish?)

So okay, here you are in this situation where you believe you and all your good stuff are not worthy of care. Is this the fault of a terrible, abusive, neglectful background?

It might be. It might also be the function of a few things coming together in the wrong way at the wrong time. I was really interested to read some research a while ago which found that ambidextrous and left-handed soldiers, especially those with ambidextrous or left-hand parents, were much more likely to suffer PTSD. That was a real revelation for me, as a lefty with lefty parents. I don't have PTSD, but I realised that the basic organic components of my brain make me a bit more sensitive to traumatic situations. And in my life I happen to have encountered some more or less traumatic situations. So this means that I might have been more affected by some of these events than some other people - but it doesn't change the fact that I still need to deal with the significance and impact of the events on me.

There are probably all kinds of brain things researchers DON'T know about yet which play into how things affect us, and all kinds of not-necessarily-abusive life circumstances which play into it too. For example: two kids see an accident on the way home from school. One goes home to her grandma, who is able to talk it through with her and she processes the trauma. The other kid goes home but her mum happens to be away on a trip that week, and her dad's not so good at talking about this stuff. She ends up carrying this around as a trauma where the other kid didn't - and it makes her extra sensitive to all the other stuff, big and little, that happens that school year. Some of these add to the new trauma pile, now that the pile has started. Shall we make the poor little kid a lefty too? Roll Eyes

My point with all of this is actually not to tell you that you've been badly hurt by insignificant stuff. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to say that you can have permission to be *as hurt as you are*, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you are saying you were brought up by monsters, or whatever. I'm kinda hoping that that permission, if you can take it, might give you the freedom to look again at the stuff your T is saying - that things were far from what they should have been.

As for that tiny spark of care - you are desperate for it because you need it. And I reckon you need it from particular places because you need it from someone who can actually hear your pain. It's okay, BB. It's not wrong.

I hope you don't mind me being a bit bossy with all my opinions here, Beebee - any of them or all of them could be wrong. In any case, I'm sending a hug for you in this state, and I hope the road leads you to a lighter place soon.
smileysmileyMember
Hi BB - I think I understand what you have said here. That need for love and understanding, caring and worth was for the most part taken away from us as children. We all need and want that in our lives. I know, I am saying it here and it makes my stomach churn just because I never feel worthy enough. I think it's because that was what I was taught by the adults in my life. How else could all of those bad things happen? I think I remember everything but there are moments when I'm not sure. I too sit back and say it wasn't that bad, it was my fault, I deserved it. It is what we came up with, I think, because why else would our needs not be met? I don't know. Just a thought.
The other thing about just grow up and get over it? I say that all the time. It's done, it's over, why can't I just forget about it and move on? Hmmm, I think maybe because everytime something triggers us it brings back those feelings we had as a child. Our brains just automatically pick up on it and we are transported back there. We try to cover it, deny it, and walk away from it. Then we think that now we deserve someone to love and take care of us because of it. The truth is we have to do that ourselves now, (with our T), to make ourselves feel worthy and deserving. It is a tough thing, and believe me I'm still working on that big time.
Thanks for being so honest and just know that we all love you here!
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
BB
I have a LOT to say but I was up last night with a tooth ache from a root canal (on the mend, got antibiotics from the doctor) and its difficult to think. But I wanted to let you know that I read this and my heart goes out to you. I think that you're being way too harsh with yourself and that they're are actually good developmental reasons for how you're feeling. I'll be back tomorrow but in the meantime please know that you're infinitely precious and deserving of anything you need to learn to live a full life. If this wasn't about you but about someone else you would see this so much more clearly.

AG
songbirdsongbirdMember
Hi BB,

I don't think you are a drama queen at all!!! The way you are describing your pain and confusion is very honest and straight! I have nothing to add to what the others have already said and with AG promising a return she's bound to know the right thing to say.

I just thought you might like this book by Alice Miller "The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self", in which she talks about the neglect in 'normal' families. It was an eye opener to me. http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gi...id=1279101163&sr=1-1

An thanks BB, your post and the responses are such an encouragement to persevere with being honest!

SB
blackbirdblackbirdMember
Hmmm...two-Bee or not two-Bee, that is the question... (sorry I couldn't resist.)

I'm going to respond to each one of you in order...there is sooooo much I neeeeed to say and get clarified about this. I'm still scared that my T won't understand it if I bring it to him. This whole problem seems to be kind of the crux of the matter for me, since the only time I ever cry, is when I fully accept how wounded I really am inside, and most of the time this problem of believing that I am just an attention-seeking drama-queen, keeps me from being able to face the reality of what I am dealing with...perhaps. Maybe. thank you for allowing me to be honest.

So I will be back later tonight, with responses and questions after everyone is asleep in my house...!

Love to all,

BeeBee Smiler
Attachment GirlAttachment GirlAdmin
quote:
Because I want attention and care because of it, that makes none of the crap T is trying to get me to see even true, or something like that, idk. It just all feels so overblown to me, like I expect waaaaay to much out of life and that in fact I have always had it quite good.


BB,
Do you know what this sounds like to me? Someone who was constantly told and/or treated like her very reasonable requests to get her needs met were somehow wildly inappropriate demands for special treatment that NO decent person would ask for. In situations of neglect and/or abuse, often what were basic needs that should have been met without a child even having to ask, were treated with condemnation, rejection or punishment because the caretaker was ONLY concerned about their needs or was incapable of seeing the child as a separate person. Many neglectful or abusive parents actually spend a lot of time telling their kids how good they have it. When we’re children our sense of reality and normality are strongly shaped by our parents, so if we’re told we’re lucky then we MUST be lucky no matter how miserable we feel. I wonder if that’s not true for you. There’s a struggle between your experience of life as being difficult to navigate versus but you have it so good how could you be struggling?

quote:
So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care. I don't mean that I would literally run out and do something horrible, but that is the sense of it I hold inside, that I want things to have3 been horrible so that I deserve this care. And all of this makes me feel terribly, terribly guilty, and unjustified to be in therapy, like I am a liar, nothing bad ever really happened to me, I just had a normal past with mormal amounts of screwups in it, and everything is really actually quite fine and I am *just looking for attention.*


This again sounds like your very human, legitimate needs for care, love, understanding and acceptance fighting with an ingrained sense of shame for wanting to get them met or even having them in the first place. When we are little, these needs are literally a matter of life and death and we will DO ANYTHING to get them met. Including contorting ourself in any kind of person we need to be to not lose our caregivers. But if you were shamed or punished or treated badly for having these needs, it’s not like you can realize, wait these are normal healthy needs there’s nothing wrong with me for having them. No, you will tell yourself that there must be something wrong with you. That to actually want something for yourself is shameful and wrong and nothing will justify it. When I hear you calling yourself a liar and saying nothing bad ever happened to you, I hear the voice of a parent that has been skillfully integrated in an attempt to get yourself to behave in a way that would keep you on their (non-existant) good side.

quote:
So, all of this hugely distracts me from the reality of what my T is trying to get me to look at, which is that, the past was far from what it should have been, and that I need to accept that reality.


Please remember what was at stake. If it wasn’t you, then it was your parents, and that was way too threatening to allow yourself to know. So it HAD to be your fault, that was the only way for you to be safe. You’re fighting that in order to really be able to look at what happened and see it for what it was.

quote:
Why can't I let it go? I don't want to dismay or trigger, but my experience of my past is just "grow up, get over it, so what?" How can I beging to see that what seems like "great expectations" and huge idealism on my part, is possibly, potentially, perhaps...just a normal amount of love, as normally given in normal families?


BB, I so hear “grow up, get over it, so what?” in the voice of my mother. Do you know how I hear that now “stop having needs and emotions that I might have to stop and deal with even if that is supposed to be what I’m doing?” Your feelings and needs and emotions, even your pain, are yours, and you are worthwhile and deserve to be listened to, to be heard, and to have your needs met.

If it isn’t too scary I want you to try an experiment. Pick three stories from your childhood, one you think was good, one bad and one that you think is no big deal and post them and ask for people’s reactions to what happened to you. Their judgement won’t be clouded with your feelings of shame (that only clouds their own stories Smiler). I think you’ll be shocked at what you hear, but I think it would be good for you.

AG
starfishstarfishMember
BB

Everybody has spoken so eloquently that I feel I have little to add that would help, except to say you are deserving of as much love and care as anybody and everybody dear BB. Their is no heirarchy of deserving people, if there were I have a feeling that you would put yourself near the bottom... but your needs deserve to be out there with everybody else's needs. You are a wonderful person with experiences that have made you uncertain about how to ask for and get what is deservedly yours, so of course you can't just 'grow up and get over it' until you learn what it is to be heard and understood.

((((((((BB))))))))))

starfish
lamplighterlamplighterMember
Hi there BB sorry it’s taken me so long to reply, I’ve been thinking about your post since you first put it up and now I think I have my ideas in some sort of order, hope so anyway.

BB that whole issue of having to have something ‘wrong’ with you in order to warrant getting care and attention and understanding - is central to my set up too. According to my judge, it’s not ok to just want smiles and warmth and liking and understanding simply because I want them - the only grounds on which that is permissible is if there’s something *seriously* wrong ie that would be considered by other people as deserving of sympathy (ha and even then, only to other people) such as an accident, a death or something 100% morally in the wrong, like rape. Moreover, I don’t actually deserve the sympathy, it’s only the goodness and caring of others that permits it (meaning, I don’t actually have any kind of emotional right to expect sympathy and understanding, but must be abjectly grateful for the smallest kind word that is offered).

I find myself, maybe a bit like you, sometimes wishing there really had been something bad happen to me in the past, just so I could feel justified in the pain and anger and bewilderment and needs that swamp me all the time - usually though I discount and dismiss those feelings and needs as selfish, childish, and usually, indicative of something wrong with me, some kind of emotional abnormality that makes me unacceptable to the world.

And also maybe a bit like you, I have this incredible need for permission - for someone to openly say - but what did happen (or more to the point, what DIDN’T happen) was really bad, you have every right to feel bad you’re not making it up it’s not your fault.

quote:
So, I would much rather suffer, than be healed and not feel justified in looking for/feeling this type of care.


The way you describe needing to hold onto the pain - it strikes me that you are trapped in believing that healing involves getting rid of the pain. That somehow wanting to heal means turning your back on your pain, pushing and striving to feel better. That’s how it’s been for me - for decades I bought into the belief that there was something wrong with me for wanting to feel how bad I knew I felt, wanting to cry, trying to find all sorts of opportunities just to feel the luxury of tears (from as far back as a little girl, making up fantasies wherein bad things happened to me, just so I could get to cry for myself) and all these years hearing the judge (and other people too!) label it self pity, not serious, trivial selfish childish etc etc.

It’s taken me years to get to the point where I could even acknowledge that what I am feeling is pain, and not just superficial attention seeking self pity.
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And it’s finally dawned on me that healing would come not from trying to get rid of that pain, but that going into the pain IS the healing. And the only way I can go into that pain, those feelings, is by having someone there for me, someone I can trust to care about and understand my feelings, to whom my feelings matter. Funny how in retrospect I realize that’s what I’ve been looking for from people all my life, and never getting it. But that’s what I believe a therapist can give. And it sounds like your T is giving you that too, but maybe you’re trapped in believing that he could only care about you so long as you are suffering? That it’s not ok to get his care for any other reason?

quote:
What is it about my *pain* that I don't want to let go of? It's like it defines me.


Well BB I’d go so far as to say that it does define you, in the sense that that’s the core you, those bad feelings all hidden away controlled dismissed, that’s where your true sense of self as good and ok is stuffed away too - getting rid of that pain without owning it first is tantamount to getting rid of yourself. Does that make sense?

As for needing to know that something or someone in your past was abusive, it’s more than just needing to have a card to play (which image I very much relate to!), it’s important to make connections as well. But I don’t think it’s possible to do that rationally - I think the feelings themselves tell the truth of the past. I guess the issue is, being able to take your own feelings seriously enough to realize that you don’t need to prove to anyone, least of all yourself, that you actually deserve sympathy and care and understanding regardless of how ‘much’ or how ‘little’ your suffering is in comparison to others. (Though it sure helps to have some yardsticks by which to measure our parents’ behaviour!)

SG puts it really well when she talks of no longer having to ‘earn’ love - that’s exactly how it feels, to me anyway, that love isn’t something that’s free, that’s a given, that can be taken for granted, we’ve learned along the way that we have to ‘deserve’ it, have to ‘earn’ it - a kind of trade off that for some obscure reason always seems to work in the other’s favour.

BB I hope you do get the courage to talk to your T about this, it seems so central to everything you’re struggling with. Maybe you could even read your post to him?

Big hugs to you anyway, and thank you for being so honest in your post.

LL
D doneMember
I didn't want to read and not respond, but I only have a second...

I'm so glad you posted this, Blackbird. I have felt this way many times, and had a similar conversation with my P about it. I think I said, "I don't really need to be here. There's nothing wrong with me." I just need to get over it, stop whining, stop thinking so much... ("Stop it!!") He very nicely replied that I do need therapy, but without it sounding like, "You ARE really messed up!" It was more of a "You deserve to be here. I'm glad you're here." Still makes me smile to think of it... Smiler

You deserve therapy, too, Blackbird.
kashleykashleyMember
I'm also so glad you posted this, BB. I relate to this so much that it's scary - as in, I'm scared to acknowledge those "darker" parts of my thoughts and feelings (or lack thereof in most cases). I push them away and write myself off as being certifiably nuts for thinking those kinds of things, and yet I hardly find myself worthy of therapy to put the screws back into place. Maybe I'd feel differently if I knew the screws were out of place for a good reason.

Oh, BB, it seems like I can feel everything behind every word you say. It's so amazing...your honesty here. Massive hugs. Here's to having faith that it won't always be like this.
seablueseablueMember
BB,
I think it was very brave of you to post this. And I am betting these are very common feelings.

I wrestle a lot with thoughts of being dramatic about my childhood - maybe it wasn't so bad, it is really self-indulgent to spend this much time and money on myself, I was loved on some level as a child, I was taken care of physically, so what exactly is your problem, seablue? Get over it and move on. And it doesn't help that my H has actually told me that I need to put it all in the past and move on. Frowner

I know that I could do that and carry on with life, living on the surface and faking my way through, but that isn't living. My 'stuff' would disrupt my life and come out sideways everyday. And it is because there was a problem in my childhood (lots of them actually). I think it's hard to see past our defenses because it's the only childhood we have had, so on some level we accepted that it was normal or worse, what we deserved.

We all deserve to heal. And we wouldn't be struggling now if things were really OK then.
blackbirdblackbirdMember
I want to thank all of you for responding so generously to me. Your friendship means so much.

There is so much that I need to figure out about this...so I really, really appreciate more tha words can say all your help. Meybe, it will give me courage to try, talk to T about it, yet, I am very afraid of being misunderstood by him on this issue, since it taps directly into my sense of myself as "bad" and I am scared to have him verify that, even if he were to do it accidentally. Yet I am finding it very difficult to find the time to post. So I hope as I reply to all of you over the next few days, it can be in the context of an ongoing conversation and you will feel free to chime in with any thoughts that you may want to put in here...and to eachother as well, should it come up naturally, that would be wonderful.

SG- all your thoughts, so insightful and helpful, gentle and non-judging- thank you. Please only answer this if you feel comfortable doing so, but I was wondering by "rescue fantasy" do you mean the idea of a daydream (BB has weird passing fancy of T, riding up on a white horse, shaggy beard flowing, to save me from worse than... Big Grin Eeker) Or by fantasy, do you mean some kind of interior unthought out hope that just resides in you without much awareness of it, that something *like* that would happen on some level?
quote:
Abuse is horrible, no doubt about it. But so is a vacuum, for a child who is trying to learn who they are. In a vacuum we learn that our needs are not all that important, but of course they are still there, so it kind of makes sense that we'd long for the needs to be so much more obvious, so they would finally get met.
This makes perfect sense...yes! And it also makes sense that we would long for someone to see us and take the initiative in meeting the needs, because that is the only way that it would fully resonate inside that they "really* care. I deal with this all the time with my spouse. The old "I want you to read my mind" syndrome, that so many marriages suffer from. Yet, sometimes, it would mean so much, to just be seen without having to explain everything out so rationally, as if I was asking a small child to meet my needs. ick. Frowner I often wish that my T would initiate contact, however slight, for this same reason. Just to realize that I'm on his radar- for him to initiate contact on something other than to send a bill, would mean SO much to me. It's just not reality, I suppose. Frowner
I think your last paragraph makes perfect sense, SG, that is very insightful and helpful! ...but, it is sooooo hard for me to accept...to let go of my desire to be seen and cared about in an *initiative* way by this parent figure...if that is what you meant by rescue fantasy...I just am not there yet. Here I feel like I am being asked to deny myself, and take up my cross...and accept my basic invisibility. And not be depressed by it, but let life still have some meaning. (Not asked by you, but just by the reality of the setup, to clarify) It's really hard, isn't it? I mean, really. Frowner I just hope that after doing that, there is some light and peace on the other side. I suspect for myself, this is why I cling to some kind of real bad lack of self-worth. I'm just waiting for someone to step in and "do it for me" first, maybe. It's really not reality, is it? How to get to the point, where I can really care about myself enough to ask for what I need...I guess that is a tough one for me. I can see all of this very rationally, understand it, at times. But the rest of times I have no comprehension of this stuff at all, it's just a lot of words. Thank you so much for great help towards finding the elusive understanding, SG. It means so much.
blackbirdblackbirdMember
Jones, Jones...your posts always leave me with such a sense of friendship, and care. I'm in mourning for your lost avatar, it was so Jonesy-yet I'm really liking your new one, too...it's nifty! I'm sure I'll get used to the change.
You said:
quote:
I get this idea because if you DID consider yourself worthy just the way you are, then it would be okay to seek out care and attention *whether you were hurting or whether you were just feeling that you need to grow*. People need and want love, care, attention and (very often) growth. That's the way that it is.

Yeah, I can see that. There is something here that I'm shutting down understnading on, too, which is probably a sign that I should look at it and actually try to understand it. It's hard to see that I could ever deserve to to this therapy thing, just for myself, my own growth, whatever. I'm able to do it because I can see the ways in which my dysfuntion is really dragging my family down, and I desperately do not want to do to my "chicks" the same as was done to me...yet I feel powerless to stop it on my own steam. That is where help *has* to come in. But it IS helping me, too, and what's more, I am getting a sense of being cared about from it, from time to time, and that feels very deeply wrong, I guess. Wow. That's the first time I ever saw that so clearly. Oh well, the realizaton will be sure to have disappeared by tomorrow. Roll Eyes
quote:
It hurts a great deal to believe that the only worthy thing about you is your pain, and to even then question whether the pain is legitimate. It hurts like hell. And it puts you in a position where you can't function to the best of your abilities. So while you are hurting, you are also hurting because you know you want to give your family and your life more but you just can't seem to.

I just want to say thanks for hearing me so well, here. This is exactly how it is. It's kind of like existing in that vacuum SG was talking about I guess. The funny thing is, I don't really know what it feels like, except really occassionally, to exist without the vacuum, so it doesn't even hurt most of the time. It's the realization of the reality of it that brings pain. when I have the odd day where I wake up feeling like a normal person who wants to be alive, that really hurts, because I get to see what I'm living without most of the time. And I wish there was a magic button to push that would make me just normal, happy and alive, as my T would say. Guess it's gonna take me a bit longer than pushing a magic button though. Frowner

I also get what you are saying about traumatic things having their effect in different ways on different people. (and I'm sorry if the little kid in what you described may have been you Frowner)The worst part of a trauma like that is having no one to talk to about it. The thing is, that for me, it gets confusing. Because I tend to think of my situation in terms of what you are describng here. Yet, my sister's P has told her that our childhood, as described by my sister of course, was living hell and significantly traumatic. These are strong words. And I can't really wrap my mind around how they can be true, since we weren't beaten, (at least not regularly) and stuff like that. To me, that kind of description belongs to severe abuse. So it just gets really confusing, because my T is trying to get me to accept that it wasn't all hunky-dorey for us kids, and yet, all I can think is that is me being a drama queen or going into histrionics about my fairly undramatic in terms of abuse, past. If that makes sense. And it certainly doesn't help matters that I get a strng sense of his boredom with the details every time I've tried to talk about it. Yet, he says, per last session, that he DOES believe I have to talk about it, over and over again. ugh. But that just brings me back into the "having a card to play" mentality again. Oh, it's confusing...I can feel my mind just shutting down, now, I'd better stop writing since I think I'm getting really confusing.
Your post hasn't confused me, by the way, it is just I'm thinking too much, and I had a short. (fzzzt-fzzzt-fzzzt...BB's feathers are singed)

You're not bossy, Lefty. I mean Jones! Big Grin You are wise and friendly. I being to understand a tiny bit better from your post, why my T is always saying I need care and it is ok to need it. Now how to accept that it really is ok, inside of myself?

Love,
Beebee
blackbirdblackbirdMember
Sorry this is turning into the mother of all posts, everybody.

Monte, thank you for liking my honesty. I like yours, too, very much! and thank you for your thoughtful, and very helpful reply to me.
But, if I am...well, honest, I guess I have always had the capacity to be honest about anything I see in myself as negative. That feels safe. The more neagative, dark and creepy, the better! It's like some kind of sick, preemtive strike. Roll Eyes
I really like that you are able to honour your "little thing" or inner child by being honest about the past. It just gets really confusing for me, as you know if you have read this far! Like you, I have some indisputable things that point to a rather severe form of neglect...like even very basic needs quite often not getting met. But it gets harder to see when you know the background of my specific family. There was some love there, I guess that's why it confuses. It would make more sense to be treated the way we were in a family that had no love at all. And I guess the care was very sporadic. Every once in awhile mom would rally, and give me a bath, you know? and because she did, that means I was deeply loved. It's weird. My mom sent me a birthday card this year. It's like the biggest deal on the planet. Of course I feel immensely guilty for not calling her to thank her, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it since the card had already thanked me so gratefully for having no needs at all from her, and calling her up would have taken some of her time away... But I can't feel "that's not love." I really can't. Even though I can see so clearly at times that it isn't. Maybe I'm afraid of the hurt. Maybe I'm afraid that it really does hurt. I don't know.

Monte said:
"That aside, like you also I cling to my 'damage' because it is a commodity, it is something to trade for love and care. The more $$$ I have the more bargaining power I have."

You have a way of putting things that really takes the edge off, Monte. I love you for it. this is so funny, so true, and so sad. Thanks for putting it so succinctly into words. And thanks for being you- you are really neat.

BB
blackbirdblackbirdMember
Smiley, thanks for your post. It's really good to hear what you have to say. I like that you pointed out, we have to learn to take care of oursleves with our T, and that it is just really hard to do.
quote:
why can't I just forget about it and move on? Hmmm, I think maybe because everytime something triggers us it brings back those feelings we had as a child. Our brains just automatically pick up on it and we are transported back there. We try to cover it, deny it, and walk away from it. Then we think that now we deserve someone to love and take care of us because of it. The truth is we have to do that ourselves now, (with our T), to make ourselves feel worthy and deserving. It is a tough thing, and believe me I'm still working on that big time.

I guess the key is to be working on it, though, and I really honor you for doing this work. Keep at it Smiley, and I will too...and we all love you, here, too.

((((Smiley))))

BB
blackbirdblackbirdMember
AG, your post is so hugely helpful to me, that I have to keep re-reading it cause I want to internalize it.
quote:
Do you know what this sounds like to me? Someone who was constantly told and/or treated like her very reasonable requests to get her needs met were somehow wildly inappropriate demands for special treatment that NO decent person would ask for.

Wow- I really have to think about this, AG, but I think you might be right. which would explain why it would be so hard to see that they were possibly, in the wrong. Because if my very basic perceptions wer completely invalidated (and I say if, still) then I can see how it would lead to the setup I now have, where having needs, being sad, needing my T, etc. is just being a drama queen. I think a lot of the problem with seeing it for me, comes from a problem with language. do you find that launguage has a tendency to convey things in automatically exaggerated terms at times, for lack of good "language" to put the explanation into. It like I hear "child neglect" and think that means locked in a basement for months with nothing to eat or drink. Anything less than that does not mean neglect. Maybe it's a language problem. But maybe that's just intellectualizing it. Maybe it is just a basic problem of denial on my part.

quote:
When we’re children our sense of reality and normality are strongly shaped by our parents, so if we’re told we’re lucky then we MUST be lucky no matter how miserable we feel. I wonder if that’s not true for you. There’s a struggle between your experience of life as being difficult to navigate versus but you have it so good how could you be struggling?

Yeah, I think it maybe does come from having reality shaped by my parents...wow. I never really thought of it like that, but I can see the truth in that. If they thought I was not really worth noticing or nurturing than it follows that I would have that perception of myself into adulthood.

quote:
When I hear you calling yourself a liar and saying nothing bad ever happened to you, I hear the voice of a parent that has been skillfully integrated in an attempt to get yourself to behave in a way that would keep you on their (non-existant) good side.



I may as well quote your entire post, in fact, because all of it really instructive and hits home, too. what you wrote above is really scary to me. I need to look at it. I'm starting to see some things here, that I think my T is trying to get me to see too. Thank you so much.
I do want to grow and live, even if it has to hurt.

quote:
If it isn’t too scary I want you to try an experiment. Pick three stories from your childhood, one you think was good, one bad and one that you think is no big deal and post them and ask for people’s reactions to what happened to you. Their judgement won’t be clouded with your feelings of shame (that only clouds their own stories ). I think you’ll be shocked at what you hear, but I think it would be good for you.



Yikes, AG! I was thinking when I first read your challenge, oh, yeah, good idea, I can do that. Now it doesn't seem so simple, faced with the reality. But I would like to try. Just give me a day or two...
You are the best, thank you so much for the wise help and input. I'm sure my T would thank you, too, if he could, for saving him some time!

BB
blackbirdblackbirdMember
STRM, Songbird (welcome!) little starfish, Echo, LL, Seablue and Kashley- and I hope I didn't miss anybody...your posts are all really valuable to me, and you made really good points. I want to respond, but I can't think straight anymore...there was a lot I wanted to say to you all, but I'm also afraid I risk putting the forum on a power outage if I keep posting at this point...so I'll be back.

Hugs,

Beebee
J jillMember
gosh, all of this is so much my story, too. yes, the SUBTLETY of abuse and neglect, all mixed up and diffused with being a 'doctor's daughter'! (as my mom was so enamored with, yuk!) with nice clothes and piano lessons...SURELY i had a good childhood.

man, have i struggled with this one, bb, and others.

one thing i just learned, is that it is often not until a person's FOURTH DECADE that they sit back and look at their childhood and connect it more solidly to how they have ALWAYS lived their lives. y'no, when you are a kid, it is your normal, yes, a few things seem different, but abuse?? neglect?? or just weird family...and me being too needy and sensitive was MY conclusion. then the college years have a rush of their own, then career, then marriage, then babies....everything is like riding a wave of 'doing', and it is not until you finally catch your breathe in life that you (i) examine these things that have always made you (i) feel 'different'. for me, the first i ever had the term profound, no less, emotional and psychological abuse and neglect...later to find traces of sexual abuse and physical abuse....was on my first day of therapty....my reaction was shock. WOW! me?? who would have thought that?? i was in disbelief, but also in massive RELIEF, as it was the FIRST GLIMPSE OF HOPE THAT MAYBE I WASN'T THE PROBLEM!!!

i still wrestle massively with this, as, so many 'incidents' are hardly anything to hang your hat on, but collectively??? and with no spoken or felt real love, no physical contact, hugs, putdowns and sarcasm being the only form of spoken 'affection'...i dunno, the ELUSIVE and SUBTLE nature, my T says, make this type of abuse INSIDIOUS!!

bb, i know, i always think i need to shake this off, and get over it and appreciate what i do have now, and i feel like a constant FAILURE and looking at my wonderful present just makes me feel worse for being so stupid and weak that i can't fully appreciate it. i feel massive guilt about that.

i am sure i offer little help, but i am right there with you and feel i ought to rise above this stuff, as many people had it MUCH WORSE.

i dunno, i guess i cling to 'i can't help others if i can't function myself'...

great thread, bb, glad you brought it up, and great posts EVERYONE!! jill
J jillMember
two, i guess i am always trying to quantify and validate and justify my abuse/neglect to have a reason why i FEEL SOOOOOOOOOOO BAD. funny, with T3, we are just touching the surface on the details, as she said something to the effect that the symptoms i have somewhat speak for themselves...and were certainly NOT just something i ate!! kinda helped. so what i am saying is, bb, recognize your symptoms had an origin outside as you were a normal baby and child with normal needs, and had they been met, you wouldn't be having these symptoms...((bb)) jill
russrussMember
quote:
Originally posted by jill:
and with no spoken or felt real love, no physical contact, hugs, putdowns and sarcasm being the only form of spoken 'affection'...


Absolutely. This is abuse as far as I'm concerned, despite how conscious or unconscious it was to our care givers. In the end, whatever factors went in to our parents ability, inability and/or willingness to provide what we needed to become healthy, integrated people is almost beside the point. The point is the result.

If you're a child and you're reaching out for a hug or some other kind of contact from your mom or dad and you don't get it ever...in my opinion, you might as well have been left on the side of the road.

Russ
strummergirlstrummergirlMember
"Two-bee or not two-bee"! ROTFLMAO!!! You are so smart and funny. Big Grin

Thank YOU dear BB for posting about this. Smiler I don't believe I've ever told anyone about this stuff, and to do so would have been very scary, and so I am more grateful than I can say that you brought this up. It is something that has been such a part of "me" as far back as I can remember that I'm not even sure I would have thought to bring it up! But the more I read this thread, and the more I go back through my own experience, the more I see how integral it really is to my own healing. I really love that we both (and so many others here) don't feel alone in this anymore! And that we can make sense of why we probably feel this way, so instead of being something that isolates us and keeps us from healing, it can be something that pushes us toward healing instead. Big Grin

Just a side note before I continue...we are on "vacation" right now (and vacations are very difficult for me...perhaps the subject of a future thread...why can't I relax and have fun?) so I haven't had the time to read through everyone elses responses...so if it seems like I'm oblivious to something someone else might have already said, that is why. Later I'll sneak back and get caught up. Razzer
quote:
So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care. I don't mean that I would literally run out and do something horrible, but that is the sense of it I hold inside, that I want things to have3 been horrible so that I deserve this care. And all of this makes me feel terribly, terribly guilty, and unjustified to be in therapy, like I am a liar, nothing bad ever really happened to me, I just had a normal past with mormal amounts of screwups in it, and everything is really actually quite fine and I am *just looking for attention.*

It is perfectly okay that you asked what I mean by rescue fantasy. FWIW, I've never actually called them "rescue fantasies" to myself, I just made that label up in my post as a shorthand way to refer to them. And I chose that label because the focus of them is on being cared about, or rescued. The quote above (from your initial post) is what made me think about them. After re-reading it, and your response to my first post, now I'm not totally sure we are talking about the same thing, exactly...or maybe we are, but I have just taken it a bit farther in a literal sense, with these fantasies. Ultimately I think they are at least related. So I will explain a bit further. And if it turns out I am talking about something else, well, then let me know and maybe I will start a different thread.

You gave the example of your T on a white horse Big Grin . And that IS the general idea of my fantasies. The fantasies themselves are quite detailed, when I have them. The first part is usually rather dark, where I am in some kind of peril. I considered sharing one when I first posted, but was way too afraid that I could trigger others here who have actually experienced things like this. And please understand that I feel terrible saying that. And obviously from all the pain shared on this forum, actually being in situations like this does NOT ensure being rescued in any way, shape, or form. So I want to very strongly emphasize that the "thrill" of the fantasies themselves is NOT in being hurt in some way - in fact I always "skim" or "fast-forward" through that part of the "fantasy" - but the real "payoff", where I get the good feelings, is from the second part, when someone (come to think of it, always a man...I can't think of any time my rescuer has been a woman) sees what is happening, and rescues me. That is the part that is more detailed, where I hang out, where I linger and bask.

Now when I have thought about it, I have thought I must be really sick to have fantasies like this. But after reading what you and others wrote here, I connected them to the consequences of having my needs neglected, and realized that the purpose of them is actually to create FOR MYSELF the feeling of being cared for (forgive me if this is too graphic of a comparison, but I would think of it as "emotional masturbation"). Being told in so many ways, direct and indirect, that our very basic needs are not important, they are a bother, they make us somehow "bad", does not make those needs go away, it just drives them underground. It makes total sense that they will pop out in some other way...and there are many ways in which that can happen...and I think these rescue fantasies I have is one of the ways I found to "meet" my own needs for comfort and care and love. My regular needs were not "enough", so I created situations in my mind where something really bad would happen to me, so I WOULD deserve, and then receive, that comfort and care and being "seen" that I was SO hungry and starving for. It is warped, to be sure, and it doesn't really "work" in the long run...but in the context of having emotional needs neglected, it is understandable. And now that I'm aware of it I can work on changing it. So now instead of thinking "I must be really sick", I am thinking "I must have been really neglected" to have fantasies like this.

Now I am "neglecting" my little girls, who are chomping at the bit to go swimming Wink so I will sign off for now. I hope this helps BeeBee...thanks again for being so brave as to put this out there. It really did take bravery to do that because you were (are) so convinced that it makes you "bad". I hope you see now, that isn't the case at ALL. You are good, you have needs, and you (and the rest of us) ALREADY deserve to have them met. Really, really. Smiler And I hope all the feedback you are getting will help you see where you need and very much DESERVE healing of your own, and that you will be able to "go there" in your therapy.

Many hugs,
SG
strummergirlstrummergirlMember
BeeBee there is one more thing I want to add, a feeling or idea that I've been struggling to express, because I have a feeling it is very important. Whether it actually is or not I don't know. But I will try. It is the idea that the consequences of neglect and abuse are twofold. The first consequences are the injuries themselves, which are terrible in their own right. But the second and more insidious consequence is that these injuries are perfectly self-reinforcing. The overall message of the injuries, whether told to us directly or indirectly, is that we do not deserve anything better, and this is what I think causes us to feel that we are "bad" in looking for healing. It keeps us trapped, going in circles, when something in us just KNOWS we are in a trap, but we can't seem to find a way out. And I would like to say for myself as well as everyone else here, this is a LIE. Do not believe it for one minute! Keep ignoring it and keep stepping out, in faith if you have to. Do the emotional equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la I can't hear you la-la-la-la-la". This forum helps immensely in getting us to believe something different, but in those alone times when we are tempted to believe the lie anyway, which is SO strong, maybe ignoring this message is another way to keep from getting pulled back into that circular trap.

SG
J jillMember
russ, my thoughts exactly. the side of the road. one thing i heard today in therapy is that often the older child is the one to 'get it worse' ( my schizophrenic sister ) and the younger one develops massive (i added massive, not the t talking) coping strategies to get through life .. for me, the disassociation, the denial, the escapes, the numbing out/not feeling, the 'good girl' backbreaking effort, etc.

so, she thought i was CLASSIC. y'no, i sometimes feared being permanently shipped away, boarding school or something, and i know those kids have their issues, but surely there is a 'house mom' that provides a little hug-time and nurturance...anyway, don't like to drift too far into what might have been, IF I HAD BEEN PUT ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD....but i do wonder. and russ, too, i don't think we have really met, but i so enjoy having a man on the board, and empathize with your situation and your t.

strummergirl, your quote "Being told in so many ways, direct and indirect, that our very basic needs are not important, they are a bother, they make us somehow "bad", does not make those needs go away, it just drives them underground." yes, so much, and while that may seem so basic to so many of y'all, i have to pause on this moment..the word 'a bother' was the key for me, i was 'a bother' and 'a burden'...and no, they went underground for awhile, i kept 'it' at bay, but wow, they dont go away, do they...good simple point i need to EAT UP AND ACCEPT.


GREAT THREAD, bb, i have printed it out as so many points are so good, and i am, with my t, slowly crafting a letter to my parents, as i sense i can't carry the weight of this wall of silence much longer...it is too heavy, and too depleting, and with her help (and i think she is sooooo capable!! yippee!) i am going to use MANY POINTS from this thread to tell them what it was like to be a child in that house, and how deeply it has affected me all my life. this thread puts so much of this subtle, twisted stuff into real words...thanks for being brave and starting it!! jill
blackbirdblackbirdMember
woo- first off I can't quite figure out all the bravery accolades I seem to be getting. Forme, this is just basic to my setup, I didn't really create it, and while I feel bad about being this way, yet I have a hard time taking personal responsibility for it. which makes me feel like I must be *(really* bad. yeah, it's an endless trap.

But when I read this:

quote:
You are a wonderful person with experiences that have made you uncertain about how to ask for and get what is deservedly yours, so of course you can't just 'grow up and get over it' until you learn what it is to be heard and understood.



I thought, gee, Starfish...are you my T? Thansk you so much for kind words. It's hard for me to accept them, but then, I figure if you can say them out there, then I ought to be able to take them in, hey? Thanks sweetie.

And LL...wow..I really relate...I think I am getting slowly to the point where I can allow myself to feel emotional pain. It's a bit scary when it happens, and I am immediately tempted to squash it with self-reproaches of being a drama queen, but there are times when the pain feels real.

I'm still dealing very much with the terrible shame involved in experinecing pain that is genuine as a *relief* though.

quote:
It’s taken me years to get to the point where I could even acknowledge that what I am feeling is pain, and not just superficial attention seeking self pity.

I am sorry for this, LL. The bad thing about it is that the thing we probably need the most is a little bit of mercy, a bit of pity, even- yet, we do not allow it for ourselves very easily now, do we? (((((LL))))))) It's truly a hellish bind. There may be an easier way out of it than you or I will suspect, though. That is just my sense...that it is much easier to exit this bind than we may think, and when the time comes for us to exit it, we will wonder why it took us so long to do something so simple? Just a little suspicion there.

quote:
SG puts it really well when she talks of no longer having to ‘earn’ love - that’s exactly how it feels, to me anyway, that love isn’t something that’s free, that’s a given, that can be taken for granted, we’ve learned along the way that we have to ‘deserve’ it, have to ‘earn’ it - a kind of trade off that for some obscure reason always seems to work in the other’s favour.


Again, this is it...why is love something that has to be earned? and then I wonder, do I do the same to those around me...and the circle of guilt begins again. I just don't want to do that to others. I really don't. But I probably do, in ways I don't even realize most of the time. Like, well, if you love me than I'll love you. My problem is that the only thing that makes any sense to me is the kind of sainthood as practived by someone like Therese of Lisiex (sp?) yet, I very simply do not have the gace to be liek that, so it gets into a huge internal philosopical and thoelogical debate about why God gives more grace to some and so on, and in the end I am basicall, not quite sure why I am even alive... Frowner Sorry about that, I know it's dark stuff, I just don't know quite, how to get rid of it.

Jill, I appreciate your thoughts, and Russ too...it is clear that you have been through similar stuff, that could lead to this kind of internal setup.

Echo, I love what your therapist said to you- that rocks, and I'm so glad you are still smiling from it! Smiler

Kashley, I'm a bit nervous that this was too much for you, so I would encourage you not to read it if it is upsetting to you right now...you are not so far along in therapy, and perhaps it's just a bit too much to take on right now...that is no wrong, Kashley...take your time, don't look too deeply too wuickly, or you could become dismayed...and let your T guide you.

Seablue, I am sorry to hear, that your husband is encouraging you to just "move on." That is very painful to deal with, for sure. The hard work you are doing deserves to be seen and appreciated for what it is, not negated. I hope you can find words to tell him, perhaps, of what it's all about for you. I know that would be hard.
STRM- thank you for kind words...because I know what you are enduring, it means that much more. Thank you so mcuh for your response here. I continue to be amazed at the level of generosity and maturity you show in the face of what you are dealing with. ((((STRM))))

And SG...thank you, for your kind words, but that joke just fell right into my lap! I couldn't not say it. Big Grin I'm really glad that the thread here is proving to be a helpful one, yet I'm sorry you are dealing with so much of the same junk I am it seems. I hope you will be able to relax and enjoy some of your vactaion...I know how that is, too, it can feel like stuff is just eating away at you the whole time, somewhere, underneath the surface...and you can be left feeling even more guilt for not enjoying yourself. I hope you can find ways to find a bit of peace and enjoyment.
SG, I have to be honest and say, I don't really have fantasies like this...I may have at one time, I don't really remember what my fantasies used to entail, I know I had a lot of them. These years I am just trying to get throught the days, not much energy or thought for fantasy. Yet, I would say I have an interior, non-thought out fantasy that replays constantly that is very much like the one you describe. I don't think about it , but it is definitely there...like I used to wonder why, I would hope I would get really sick, end up in hospital, and have someone who really loved me come and visit...stuff liek that. Hm, now that I think about it, maybe I really do have the same type of fantasy, I just never really acknowledged....wow. I tend to push thoughts like that away, refuse to acknowledge them, I guess. Yet I have a constant, unanshamed fantasy of sitting on the couch with my T, kind of both slouched down side-by-side just chatting about our days, and general stuff. Or that he would take me for a walk on the beach with him, ask me to come along. goofy stuff like that. (One of my treasured pieces of knowledge about my T is that he likes to walk on the beach) Thanks for all the insight, SG, you're giving me so much to ponder, I have to re-read...I am sorry that this is disjointed and not very coherent or thoughtful a reply, I find I am in a state tonight, of just missing my T terribly, terribly, more even than usual...letting myself feel it after reading and writing on this thread... yet wondering if any of the awful emotional pain I 'm feeling is even "real." Frowner why does therapy have to be so confusing?

Beebee...
songbirdsongbirdMember
Hello BB and everyone,

thanks for so much realness and honesty here, it's hard for me to take it all in at the moment. There is such a world in each sentence and I am having trouble processing everything in the same spirit. I am very slow.

Jill,
quote:
i always think i need to shake this off, and get over it and appreciate what i do have now, and i feel like a constant FAILURE and looking at my wonderful present just makes me feel worse for being so stupid and weak that i can't fully appreciate it. i feel massive guilt about that... as many people had it MUCH WORSE.


I so relate to this! And it really is this terrible double bind that SG is describing that only serves to silence me again and again and even do my mum's job for her by attacking myself. It even catches me here. Yikes. But I swear, however slow and cowardly and twisted and stupid I feel I am, I WILL NOT STOP until I've gotten to the bottom of this or I'm 6 feet under!!!

So thanks for all you lovely, caring, sharing, shining people out there helping so much!

Talking about journey, I'm off for a week to the countryside. Will I enjoy myself???.... Big Grin Big Grin

love
SB
lamplighterlamplighterMember
SG just wanted to chip in here about the idea of rescue fantasies. (Sorry BB hope you don’t mind a bit of a digression.)

The way you describe them you could have been talking about the stuff that’s been going on in my head. For years, even right from when I was little, I’ve have a head full of this kind of fantasy - where I’d imagine bad things happening to me (safe bad things of course, bad things that the world would stand and weep over) in order to feel myself a poor little hard done by but totally innocent and totally good victim (kind of Cinderella/Snow White characters) - that would let me feel sympathy (I used to call it self pity) for myself BUT of course the payoff was that Prince Charming, Mr Right, or just plain Barry from form 2 at school, and as I got older men such as Bodie and Doyle of the Professionals *sigh swoon* would rescue me, emotionally - would come along and see my suffering and be so moved by it and by my ‘goodness’ that they’d love me and care for me, take me away to live in the land of happy ever after where all my needs and wants would be taken care of - blissful one way total love and total belonging... (and yeah, always men...)

(Wow just had a flash that it’s not so long ago I would never have DARED admit anything like that to anyone. This forum makes it so easy to talk about things that I’d experience as totally shameful in real world.)

Anyway when I got to my thirties I got a terrible shock - I realized that I’d spent most of my life living in these fantasies, driving to work, going shopping, at night in bed, or daydreaming at every opportunity, my head was always in one or other of these fantasies and it nearly destroyed me to realize that I was living in these fantasies and they just weren’t REAL, nor did I stand a chance of ever acting them out - that I’d spent my life fantasizing because reality was so shit.

The worst bit about that realization was that I totally lost the ability to fantasize in that way, or in any way come to think of it. Sometimes I’d catch myself going off into a daydream (no longer about being rescued by a man, that had long gone) but about maybe doing something really well (at work for instance) and being hugely praised for it, having my intrinsic worth and value openly recognized and accoladed. But I’d know I was fantasizing, and that always made me really miserable.

Sometimes I wish I could get the ability back - but I also know that the reason I can’t fantasize myself into a good-me place anymore is because I’m not and never was good in those ways. Reality made sure of that!

It’s not all a downer though, these days I’m working on making good-me a reality IN reality, identifying and trying to accept all those unmet needs and wants so I can try and do something about getting them met IN REALITY, instead of having to live in a fantasy world in my head just to survive the pain of past reality.

I also believe that fantasies are really important as a way of learning what is going on inside - a direct route to identifying needs and wants and feelings that are too painful to experience directly. A bit like dreams, but much clearer and more direct. Not that I’m about to reveal the intimate details of my (now long past) fantasies to anyone else in a hurry lol. It’s funny, the fantasies themselves have gone, but the needs and wants are all still there. *sigh*

p.s. Songbird, I hope you do enjoy that week in the country Smiler

LL
strummergirlstrummergirlMember
quote:
Russ said: In the end, whatever factors went in to our parents ability, inability and/or willingness to provide what we needed to become healthy, integrated people is almost beside the point. The point is the result.

If you're a child and you're reaching out for a hug or some other kind of contact from your mom or dad and you don't get it ever...in my opinion, you might as well have been left on the side of the road.

Thank you for this, Russ, that the point of therapy is dealing with the results. For so many years I refused to look at the results, in the name of "forgiveness", because I knew my parents' background. I understood that my dad had done better than was done to him and his sisters, and I understood that my mom had hurt me out of her own experience of being hurt, lost, and confused. In fact when my family went through some therapy when I was twelve, they both "apologized" to me...but it was presented in the form of an explanation, as if the explanation automatically fixed the hurt. But I don't remember there being any actual regret of the effect it had on me or my siblings...in fact, the results of their behaviors on us were not even looked at. For example, when I started to cry at my mother's explanation, which included revealing to me that I had a different biological father than the rest of my siblings, she became irritated and said "Oh come on, it's no big deal." And that was it. And my needs continued to not be met after that, in fact it was shortly after that that she abandoned us altogether. And for years I rejected any thoughts of doing "inner child work" as some kind of wallowing in self-pity. But I certainly don't see it that way anymore. Now I see it as insurance against doing the same thing to my "chicks" as BeeBee put it. Not the same exact things, but the main thing of not seeing and responding to their needs, whatever they are. Whatever they are. It is truly horrid to think that one of the effects of having had my needs neglected is that I would neglect my children's needs. But how can I see them if I don't acknowledge my own unmet needs from the past? And every day I look at this stuff, the blinders come down a little bit more, and I see and respond to their needs a little bit better. And there are so many little needs I miss, and I deeply deeply regret that, it is overwhelming sometimes. But when I miss them, at least I can truly apologize and try to do it different next time, instead of making excuses. Like in therapy, when I don't do it perfectly, because I will never do it perfectly, there can be healing in the repair.

SG
blackbirdblackbirdMember
SG- (((((((SG))))))))

I am soooo sorry for what you've endured...see, I find it so funny that we seem to think we don't have anything to really mourn in the past and here you have been abandoned and negated in veeerrrry serious ways by someone you should have been able to trust! So it just goes to show that the pain really IS real, whether we tend to think we are just being overly-dramatic about it or not. No one could go throught what you went through with your mom "apologizing" which was really no apology at all, and telling you to get over it, it's no big deal (not true, but cleverly designed statement to make her feel better at the expense of stomping all over the integrity of your very real emotions. I think I got a lot of the same kind of thing...when I would cry, or was just depressed in general, I would be told by my dad or by one of my (much) older siblings that I was being a drama queen, shut up, everybody loves you, (said in a most sarcastic tone) and so on. So maybe all of this inability to accept emotions and pain as real comes from this kind of negation.

LL, I think I lost the ability to fantasize, too...and I think maybe that's why I tend to shove those thoughts away when they pop up now. But I'm realizing the more I think about it, that yes, I HAVE always had that type of fantasy, whether fully thought out or more just a sense of wanting something bad to happen so that I can feel loved.

Good for you, Songbird, for not stopping the hard work of uncovering all this stuff! We just keep chipping away at it, sometimes in utter confusion, but hoping that it will get somewhere if our T's will help guide when we go astray.

BB
mtfmtfMember
BB,

I haven't had time to read everyone's posts to you but wanted to say that I could have written almost your entire original post myself. Please know you are understood and not alone. We have some similar 'stuff' you and I. Neglect can do some awful things to children, things that are hidden to us and just aren't so easy to detect. Emotional deprivation is one of them and that is the hardest one to 'see'. Neglect causes a lot of damage, but it really is hard to dig up the effects and make them concrete facts to examine and chip away at. Hang in there, BB. And trust in your T. He can see these things so much more easily that can you. You're such a wonderful person, not a drama queen, and you have real pain and heartache and things to heal from. You have such a tender heart and offer so much here on the boards. That compassion is something you've been blessed with and you use it well. Take good care of yourself BB! You are precious! Smiler

MTF
starfishstarfishMember
BB

quote:
when I would cry, or was just depressed in general, I would be told by my dad or by one of my (much) older siblings that I was being a drama queen, shut up, everybody loves you, (said in a most sarcastic tone) and so on


...and that teaches you a very sad lesson doesn't it?..that your feelings and emotions are unimportant and if that is said often enough, without any corrective feedback, from good parenting etc, then you eventually learn to believe it too. Also I think you eventually stop looking for any comfort because you know you won't find it Frowner Well I think that's certainly what happened to me and is my default now...don't tell anyone that I have needs, just in case they are not met, even though the people near me now Would meet those needs, it still feels too much of a risk.

Kepp tweeting BB, you are safe to do it here and will be heard most definitely,

starfish
J jillMember
quote:
Also I think you eventually stop looking for any comfort because you know you won't find it

starfish, bingo. you get your hand slapped enough, through ridicule, sarcasm or humiliation, my parents favorite tools, and you just DON'T extend it anymore and live a very protected life!!

bb, your quote: So maybe all of this inability to accept emotions and pain as real comes from this kind of negation.

wow, that is what i asked for the first three months in therapy.."is this real"...all my spinning and fog? if i would have had a broken arm it would have made sense that it hurt, but emotions were always INvalidated as weakness and 'you shouldn't feel that way, look at xy and z' so to REALLY FEEL EMOTIONS just seem bewildering...and then to have them validated?? better than sliced bread!! that freedom to FEEL, wow, gotta remember that for my kids.

great thread, BB, thanks for starting it

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