Hi Anton,

Welcome to the forum. Erotic transference can so powerful, and such a complex set of feelings. Although there's a kind of delirious joy that comes with feeling the way you do, I don't envy you at this moment, because there's also a lot of pain. Sometimes the erotic feelings function by masking pain, and sometimes they bring the pain of knowing the relationship can't be the way we long for - that it's confined to the room, and to this strange, intimate professional interaction.

There's a worse pain possible, though, and that's the pain that comes with your therapist failing to hold proper boundaries, and allowing the relationship to develop on non-professional lines. Although this probably sounds like your wildest dream, there are a few clients here (male and female) who could tell you about the agony, heartbreak and disappointment that comes once those lines have got blurry. Once things have got to that point, you and the T are really in an impossible situation. They can no longer tend to you properly as a client, because their own ego-driven needs and wounds are in the way (these emerge in any personal relationship). They cannot meet you properly as a friend or lover, because your established relationship roles are unequal, and there is no way to erase that history. And furthermore, their career is now in jeopardy, because as soon as a T steps outside their professional obligations to a client, they are committing a form of therapeutic malpractice. So these relationships do not end well. More often than not the pressure increases, panic sets in, and the client gets abandoned.

So, stop or go on? It really depends whether your T is holding proper boundaries or not. With a strong, secure T who holds them, working through erotic transference *can* turn into a very healing experience. But without that, you'd be much better off somewhere else.

I'm concerned that your T is telling you stuff about herself that other clients don't know, and that you know that. If that's the case, she may not be that good at holding boundaries, and you may be at risk here. I would suggest that you do some reading around erotic transference and therapists who breach boundaries, to get a better hold on the situation. Also consider getting a consult with another therapist (preferably a male) to help sort through some of these overpowering feelings. And above all, be cautious.

I say all this knowing that it may not have any impact on you. Often clients who are in the thrall of powerful transference don't have enough of their brain left over to step outside the situation and protect themselves. And knowing that your T's boundaries could be a bit unsound might even be more tempting, rather than offputting.

I will say this, though: the feeling that "i could be with her every day for rest of my life and would be in heaven, not in a maternal way but as a mate" is an absolute illusion, and it's a classic product of erotic transference. That person is a fantasy person, built out of the one hour a week (or whatever) when she is PAID to give you her undivided, unselfish attention. I guarantee you that outside the therapy hour she's as selfish, distracted and flawed as the rest of us. And *if* she's no good at boundaries, she's probably worse than that - she's probably narcissistic, self-deluded and bad at her job, despite all appearances. Not sure how old you are, but you're probably old enough to know appearances aren't everything.

I hope the harsh talk is not too painful, Anton. I wish you well with protecting yourself, and with getting the healing you sought from therapy in the first place.

Hi Anton, welcome to the forum.

I am sorry you are going through such a difficult time. I know all about transference/counter-transference and attachment with T's. I am only just coming through a dreadful time with exT who became my friend. We met outside of therapy, I knew her husband and she told me all her personal and family stuff and I supported her. Who was giving therapy to who? I was the one paying though. So much happened I couldn't begin to write it all but I was seeing her for therapy twice a week and meeting her socially and she took over my life.

Jones, thank you for your post it is brilliant and explains it all perfectly. My exT did exactly what Jones said, she panicked and abandoned me. After that she denied that we had ever been friends, she made things up about me and my mental health saying that I had BPD. I was devastated because she had taken my therapy, friendship and outside social activities, with her, away from me. I was temporarily suicidal. My confidence and self-worth were zero, worse than when I started therapy. This happened in August 2010. After a year of hell I decided the only way to deal with it was to complain to her professional body. There was a hearing, at that hearing she did not appear to understand that she had done anything wrong, even with the panel questioning her and the lies kept coming. I won my case and she was sanctioned, she failed to comply with the sanctions and was expelled from her professional body. She never showed any remorse, she was like ice compared to how warm she was with me when I thought we were lifelong friends. I felt better because I was believed by the panel but I still couldn't move on.

I then took her through civil litigation and won my case, it was settled out of court. This helped me enormously because I was sent to see an expert witness, a psychiatrist who specialises in personality disorders. Her report was life changing for me because she completely slated the way exT had treated me, her lies and her incompetent and uneducated diagnosis of my mental health. If it wasn't for her I wouldn't be in the good place I am today although I still suffer from PTSD symptoms sometimes. I think it is over and something happens and it all comes back to haunt me, thankfully it doesn't last for long.

So Anton, if you can get out of that situation with your T now, then I would urge you to do so. As Jones said, after a while you can't think straight it just takes over your whole life and it will always end in tears.

Four years of my life have been taken up with trying to move on from this exT. Others on here will tell you the same. It didn't stop me from getting attached to another T but she had strong boundaries and I felt safe and grounded with her. I could tell her how I was feeling and because she didn't fuel the situation I found it lost its power over me.

Good Luck Anton in whatever you decide to do. Please keep posting and ask any questions if that would be helpful for you.

Caroola

Hi Anton,

I totally mirror what Jones and Caroola have stated. I did become intimately involved with my first male therapist. Became involved with his life and his family and later on down the road an affair. It seemed like I was swept away by it at first, but one day 6 months into our affair ExT decided that he could no longer continue because he felt "guilty" for cheating on his dead wife, and I wound up trying to kill myself.

I don't think it is ever ever a good thing to become involved with a T outside of therapy and especially in an intimate sense. It is always damaging to client in some way.

It is ok to experience sexual feelings and fantasies about our Ts, but talking through it... is the only way through it.

I hope that the T you are with maintains appropriate boundaries. Perhaps speaking with a male T would better assist you with the ET feelings and then you can resume back with your female T?

Best of luck to you.

Hi, Anton. Welcome to the forum!

ET is practically the bane of my existence. I'm 31 and working with a male T who is 64. I've been in therapy for about 7 months. From the beginning, we've had a great connection. We have lots of similar interests and share an artistic bent. We're able to communicate on an intuitive level that doesn't happen in many other relationships. He clearly enjoys treating me, and I enjoy being around him.

I don't know if my T is more open with me than other clients. (It wouldn't surprise me either way.) However, he has made it absolutely clear that he does not desire me sexually and that absolutely nothing will happen between us. Even outside socializing is off the table. This is for my safety and healing. And because I respect him and the healing process, I respect his boundaries by refraining from any enticing behaviors.

I've realized that, due to my past trauma, I'd probably experience ET with any therapist I chose to see. It's just amplified in this case by a genuine, warm connection. I am unable at this time to separate admiration from desire. It's a work in process, and very painful at times. I've experienced ET so strong and obsessive that it's nearly caused panic attacks. This isn't about how attractive my T is. This is about how wounded I am.

There have been times I have thought I should walk away because the feelings were too intense. But then I realized that my T is safe and willing to help me work through this. Here's a good rule of thumb: if you're trying to seduce your T and can't approach ET from a healing perspective, it may be time to find someone else. But if you can own that these are your feelings and recognize that they are coming from a wounded place (and you have a safe T), then you should stay and work through it.

Good luck.

Hi all,

Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies. Sorry for the delayed acknowledgement. Want to properly digest the replies before commenting tomorrow, becuz lot of significant stuff has been brought up (and also haven't had a chance till now). Hope this is ok.

thanks
anton

Hi Jones, you are so right about there being "a lot of pain". Aside from losing loved ones suddenly and pets, this is the most painful emotional thing i've ever been thru. Wasn't expecting it, wasn't prepared, and i am also chronically ill and rather weak and badly fatigued with a stressed nervous system. So it has been hell.

I've read a number of accounts of T and client getting together and the ensuing horrors. I imagine in at least some cases this *can* work out, and we just don't hear about those cases. I mean if two ppl are truly in love then that can trump everything else.

My T has been quite good about the whole thing. I think she shared a few details about herself only becuz we had a good rapport and it was in the natural flow of things. MOstly this is a fantasy in my head. Boundaries are in tact but i do plan to see if she will clarify more what exactly she has been thinking. Trying to see how honest she has been. Nothing is going to happen, even tho part of me wants it badly.

Yes i was also considering finding a male therapist to see for a while. Good suggestion.

I do disagree about the "absolute illusion" thing. Clearly a client only gets a partial view of a T, and it can be quite a narrow one. And there can be a dangerous level of idealization that happens. But sitting in an intimate little room, talking about intense feelings, forming a real bond… you can get a pretty good feel for another human being that way after 4-5 months. I may not know her likes and dislikes and her bad habits, but when there is chemistry, one just knows it.

I don't accept psych theory as a blanket explanation for anything, and esp not human emotions. No possible way ET explains the entirety of my feelings. People are WAY more complex than that.

thanks
anton

Hi Anton,

You've been going through a huge amount - I'm sorry for all that pain, and that this situation is stressing your system even more, just when you really need a peaceful refuge. I'm glad at least that you feel confidet of your T's boundaries.

It's probably true that not every client/T relationship ends badly. I noticed this in one of the articles AG posted:
"Pope and Vetter published a national study of 958 patients who had been sexually involved with a therapist. The findings suggest that about 90% of patients are harmed by sex with a therapist; 80% are harmed when the sexual involvement begins only after termination of therapy."

So it's probably true that there are a small percentage of clients who get through this without getting harmed (the study doesn't say whether the relationships worked out or not). I just know that if I were interested in a medication or an activity or something and it turned out to harm 90% of the people who took it, I wouldn't want to try my chances.

I wish you the best with it - let us know how things develop.

Hi Caroola,

Wow, incredible story. Sorry you went thru such a nitemare but sounds like justice and decency won out. A real cautionary tale. Glad you had a good outcome.

If nothing else it makes me think twice about having too much implicit trust for my T.

Have to be careful, tho not paranoid, since I am extremely vulnerable -- chronic illness, social isolation because of the illness, a dysfunctional relationship with my partner/girlfriend, sexually frustrated. And then this T comes along so charming, beautiful, supportive. Started to worship her. Fortunately I am starting already to come back to earth and last night's session was more grounded in reality.

I think the infatuation, terribly painful longing and sadness, and feelings of crushing rejection are at heart of what is wrong with me. And that going thru it is important, even if at times i feel too much despair to go on. But not sure about this since my own self worth is not far above zero lately.


thanks
anton

Hi ghost girl,

Thanks for sharing that, another incredible story. So sorry you went thru that. I hope you came thru it ok.

Yes i am considering just what you said -- trying to find a male T to work with for a little while. But finding a therapist who is a good fit is not easy. My current T referred me to a male T while she was on holiday/vacation and he was nice guy with some good insights, but wanted to talk instead of listen and I wasted an hour of my time listening to his goddam stories.

Whatver the case i do not want to bail out on my current T just yet, as i think she is a potentially powerful ally if i can get thru this infatuation without coming apart.

I have been to 4-5 other Ts and i felt virtually nothing with them. With the current T i feel more alive. I think she is quite special but the idealization thing is dangerous and i have to remind myself to stay grounded.

thanks.

Hi AG,

Thanks for the links. I think i came across your blog a while back and read some of that article. Will take another look. The checklist was interesting. Makes me think of some things to bring up with the T, to validate trust.

Thanks.

Hi Affinity,

I can relate to what you're feeling. BUt in my case i have not had any sort of transference feelings with past therapists. I think its because i wasn't ready to expose my deepest feelings, i didn't feel enuf trust or connection to let my guard down, but also i simply did not have the undeniable chemistry that i feel with my current T. When someone just gets you, and vice versa, its powerful. And thats the problem for me, its so powerful that it feels like i'm madly in love.

And who's to say i am not. Framing everything in psych labels and concepts is kinda dangerous. I told my T hey i don't want my feelings (of love for god's sake) to be herded into a little box labeled "ET" or whatever, and then we just carry on, having quickly defined and labeled it.

But i do feel, like you, that this is ultimately about my wounds as much as anything. But thats only part of it.

Thanks.

Hi Jones,

Thanks for posting the stats. Scary numbers indeed.

For me this is not about pursuing a sexual relationship with with my T. That is basically a dead end, tho i do admit that if that door were opened i would have a very hard time not going thru it.

It's about how to cope with the feeling of being hopelessly in love with my T, while at the same time having a very strong connection that could lead to healing.

I saw her yesterday and she was finishing my sentences and paraphrasing what i was trying to express as if she were in my head. She makes me laugh, i make her laugh. It feels like a once in a lifetime connection, so much more than physical attraction or projection due to transference.

Will probably have to terminate. So freaking sad.

Has anyone else got to that point and how did u bear it?

Thanks...

Hi Ninn,

Gosh that must be confusing. Sure does seem like a maternal attachment from what you say. Yea i think acceptance is the key. Really seems like you might be able to work thru something important but what do i know.

My situation seems so different by contrast. I can see precisely what it is about my T that attracts me to her and it all makes perfect sense. No confusion at all, only longing and sadness, plus a little bliss in btwn.

Hi AG,
Thanks for the feedback, compelling post. I can relate to much of what u are saying. But i'm definitely not saying i have enuf info to know i would be compatible with my T in a real relationship. What i'm saying is that everything that i HAVE seen indicates a strong likelihood. But i can see the difference, have talked to the T about it, and have read many accounts of such situations.

Because i have been fairly isolated due to illness, i am particularly vulnerable to getting carried away in a situation like this. Indeed, like a sponge as you say. Or a junkie finally getting his fix. I have said to the T that this feels risky because i am too vulernable. She has handled it well but its thin ice. Not becuz i expect anything to happen, its a dead end, but because its too easy for me to get caught in the fantasy, and then come crashing down again and again.

I will say tho that 4 previous therapists had basically no effect on me. So for me anyway they are not interchangeable placeholders for my projected feelings. The current one is special, i can feel it in every cell in my body. And she is attractive to me whereas the others were not. And she has revealed more of herself than she normally does, and so i have seen some of her real personality, got bit annoyed with each other, a bit fed up. But i keep telling her how much i treasure her as well.

To be honest, at times it is just plain beautiful in the moment and who cares about all the bloody psych nonsense and what does it all mean, etc. Thats part of what I try to focus on -- just having a deep connection with this wonderful human being without trying so hard to make it part of some complicated process. And how bad can that be, even if i will never have her in my real life. But i hear what u are saying, appreciate your advice.

-anton

quote:

hats part of what I try to focus on -- just having a deep connection with this wonderful human being without trying so hard to make it part of some complicated process.

Therapy IS about the connection. That's what makes it work. Though I totally understand how hard that is to negotiate. When I first started therapy and felt like I was falling for my therapist, I about went nuts trying to figure out just what kind of relationship I had entered into. It offers some of the deepest intimacy I'm likely to experience with another human being, but only for 45 minutes a week and I'm...paying him??? WTF?

So what is he? Not a friend; friends go out for coffee. Not a lover; lovers have sex. Not my father; he didn't spawn or adopt me. I finally settled on "ally." That's what my T is: an ally. The feelings are real, the connection is real, the boundaries are concrete.

Anton, I promise I relate to what you are saying. While I might experience ET with another therapist, what I have in terms of a personal connection is unique with this one. I don't think I could easily find another T who is as much into the arts as I am, or religion or women's rights or nature. While I haven't done serious therapy with another T, I have seen 2 or 3 psychiatrists and a college psychologist, and I didn't experience these feelings with any of them.

It's ok to enjoy and cherish the connection. It can be very life-giving. But the purpose of therapy is to develop the skills and desire to recreate that experience with loved ones outside of therapy. As in AG's case, my marriage has improved significantly since I started working with my T. Therapy is a very intense experience, so it feels like once in a lifetime. But really, it's just the beginning.

quote:

Originally posted by Affinity:
It's ok to enjoy and cherish the connection. It can be very life-giving. But the purpose of therapy is to develop the skills and desire to recreate that experience with loved ones outside of therapy. As in AG's case, my marriage has improved significantly since I started working with my T. Therapy is a very intense experience, so it feels like once in a lifetime. But really, it's just the beginning.

I think we are saying mostly the same thing. Yea, obviously the point of therapy is to work on connecting in a controlled setting so that u can do it better on the outside. My point is that a lot of what i read and hear seems excessively focused around labeling and defining feelings, and around a process where everything is a stepping stone to some future salvation, so just trying to remember that if i feel a deep connection in the moment (even if it is contrived in a way) it doesn't have to always mean anything more than that and just appreciate it. Kinda rambling, sorry…

I hear u about once in a lifetime, but i am talking about the person not the experience. I don't think therapy attachment and actual chemistry are mutually exclusive. And despite what the websites and blogs say, patients/clients can sometimes have insights into their own feelings and can separate the two. Let's not forget that individual people are just that. Hope i don't sound too defensive...

best,
anton

Hi anton,

Welcome to the forums. I've only been here a few months and have found this to be a wonderful place for support and encouragement.

I think most of us on this board can relate to your feelings for your T. The idea that being close is painful and being far is painful is something I'll all too familiar with. I think the others have given good words of wisdom, caution, and insight.

quote:

Originally posted by anton:
My point is that a lot of what i read and hear seems excessively focused around labeling and defining feelings, and around a process where everything is a stepping stone to some future salvation, so just trying to remember that if i feel a deep connection in the moment (even if it is contrived in a way) it doesn't have to always mean anything more than that and just appreciate it.

I agree with what you said above. We try to label every interaction something clinical as if we could diagram what is happening on a blackboard, which we could do with a lot of my sessions. But I agree that a deep connection between two human beings can be just that and healing in itself, minus all the psychobabble.

I recently studied the Greek word for healing, which is therapia. I'm guessing it's the root word for therapy. If we think about the therapeutic relationship as a healing relationship, then it is the actual relationship that heals, not just the tools to learn how to do "real" relationships outside of therapy.

My T believes the actual real relationship between counselor and client is the healing agent. Having said that, I am aware that a relationship close enough to heal unfortunately can also create chaos, hence the strict boundaries. The boundaries actually protect the relationship from turning a healthy relationship to a chaotic and unhealthy one. I love and hate boundaries as much as the next client, but I'm thankful the boundaries allow me to continue in a close, deep relationship without fear.

I'm not sure if this helps you decide if you should continue with your T or not, but I think the more you talk it through with her, the more you'll know if your relationship with her can still help you. I think at some point if your frustration hits its limit and your feelings get in the way of healing, you'll know.

All I can say is you're not alone in your struggle and I hope longing and sadness ease up for you.


PassionFruit

I think the key is she is your T - nothing more, nothing less.

The huge red flag in this for me from all you're saying isn't how you feel, but her behaviour and boundaries - or lack of them.

It's her role - her job - to ensure you are not harmed by her and the boundaries she needs to keep firmly in place. That she is disclosing things to you she 'doesn't tell other clients" is unprofessional at best, and potentially very harmful at worst.

That you have such strong feelings isn't the concern - but it concerns me greatly at what she is disclosing to you and to be honest I only see this turning out very very badly, unless she seeks supervision for herself and deals with her issues.

Because it seems she is pretty chuffed with your infatuation (who wouldn't be - it's very flattering having someone 'adore' you).

I don't know if you looked at AGs links to her blog. When I read them a couple of key things stood out, and I think would be very important for you to hold onto here:

1) of course we love our Ts - we have their undivided attention, for a whole hour once or twice a week. They hang onto every word we say, pretty much only talk about us and how WE feel. In other words - it's all about US.

2) we only see the BEST side of them. We don't see them being slobby, not bothering to do the dishes, having an argument, being in a bad mood, burping, farting, or a hoard of other annoying habits. For that one hour they are exclusively focused on US. For one hour they attend to our needs (or should); they give their best caring and concern. But no one is like that 24/7. Not in the real world anyway.

In a lot of ways we get a better deal than outer T's spouse or children BECAUSE we only get to see their very best, most attentive and caring sides. But no one is like that 24/7! You don't think she yells at her partner or child?

Thing is - you are only seeing a glimpse of her and who she is. When we meet someone (outside of the therapy situation) it's pretty common and normal in an intimate relationship to 'fall in love' and only see the good in the person - they can seem PERFECT. It's over many weeks , months or even years , we come to know the person for all that they are.

99% of the people we meet and fall 'in love' with turn out to NOT be 'the one'. Although the feelings we have all start out telling us they are.

I agree in part with the idea of 'enjoy the conncetion for what it is' HOWEVER I think you're struggling to do this due to the intensity of yr feelings, evident in some of what you say - in part, it IS more 'fantasy' than reality. (Example being when you say you really do know she would be someone you would connect with - in reality you can't possibly know that in the limited context of therapy, for the reasons I've highlighted above)

Again - it's not 'wrong' you're feeling this way - my huge concern is your T's major lack of boundaries and she is embarking on a very slippery slope here, where at best, it will only hurt you.

I definitely think seeing another T to talk thigh this is vital.

And I can only hope your T has supervision and is AWARE of, and honest about (with her supervisor) what is happening in session with you (disclosing with you in a way that suggests favouritism or you being 'more special' than other clients she sees. THAT is the major major red flag in this.

It leaves me feeling incredibly sad (and mad) at her inappropriateness with that

quote:

Originally posted by PassionFruit:
I agree with what you said above. We try to label every interaction something clinical as if we could diagram what is happening on a blackboard, which we could do with a lot of my sessions. But I agree that a deep connection between two human beings can be just that and healing in itself, minus all the psychobabble.
PassionFruit

Hi PassionFruit,

Thanks, great post. I agree very supportive and active community.

And what you say above is right on. If it gets too clinical, i turn off.

Yes clearly the boundaries are crucial. For me the struggle is that the boundaries are wholly unnatural and artificial. Therapy is not part of the natural order of things. The boundaries are in direct opposition, in some situations, to the normal flow and evolution of human emotion. Not saying you abandon the boundaries and do something foolish, rather that if it feels this unnatural and frustrating, then yes perhaps it is time to move on. And if so, i'll be more inclined to think of therapy as fundamentally flawed. Trying to remember also that there are other ways to heal besides conventional talk therapy.

-anton

Hi ElizaJ, thanks for the feedback. Not sure if you saw previous posts in this thread, but most of this has already been pointed out by others or acknowledged by me.

There have been a few things she shared with me, fairly minor things i believe, of a personal nature. But this was in the flow of things and not overt or excessive. I think we both have realized we have a good general connection. She has been clear for her it is no more than that. I am the one expressing much more.

However i am concerned a bit. Sometimes she laughs at my jokes and it feels like *that* kind of laugh, that every guy wants from a woman. But I am desperate and vulnerable, so i read into everything. And yes she is chuffed, i can see it, especially given how over the top my declarations. Another concern. But i will only suffer so much before i bail out.

Anyway, my original reason for posting was not so much to get advice as to share experiences and have dialog. No offense, but some of what you've said is quite heavy handed advice and a bit alarmist, even tho it's also totally relevant. Just an observation. I know it's logical to give advice to the new guy, but a good dialog helps everyone.

For example: "when you say you really do know she would be someone you would connect with - in reality you can't possibly know that in the limited context of therapy, for the reasons I've highlighted above". Don't know how you can possibly say this, without being in the room. Again, chemistry and compatibility are clearly very different things, yet chemistry is undeniable when you feel it, wherever it comes about. That's ALL i am saying.

thanks
anton

The concern with sharing her personal info was more that you said she 'told you things she hadn't told other clients' -THAT is what is of major concerns or me.

When I said you cannot possibly know for sure you would connect outside the rooms let me clarify that - yes, 'chemistry' might be there; you MIGHT have 'a lot' in common but s I said above - 99% of those you "'fall in love with' or 'get to know' in a dating sense, you do have all those feelings for and yet almost always it DOESN'T work out.

It takes weeks months, years to truly know someone. And that's when you are actively dating - a lot more contact and in a huge range of situations other than the one hour once a week in therapy.

She's said she does not feel that way - you want to believe she does - you perceive there's 'chemistry' - IF a T did happen to have feelings for a client and was sexually attracted to them the right thing to do would be to terminate therapy with that person.

So either one if two things are happening here - either she does have a spark for you and is making the very unprofessional and potentially highly damaging (to you) decision to keep seeing you; OR - she really does not have any feelings for you; you just feel there is when there isn't.

One more thing (sorry) ...

If she is giving you enough information about herself that you are able to conclude you would 'connect' outside the rooms, then it's no longer effective therapy for you - therapy is about YOU - her needs, wishes, desires, thoughts, feelings aren't the focus.

So again - either she is talking a lot about herself and what SHE thinks and feels (enough for you to 'know' she would be compatible for you in a relationship) OR she isn't, and you just think you know enough about her to feel you would 'connect'.

quote:

Originally posted by PassionFruit:
One point I made is any one-sided relationship does not seem genuine; it feels manufactured. Any relationship has some mutuality to it - mutual trust and vulnerability.
Passion Fruit

Yes, indeed. My T used the word "contrived" which i think fits. It's definitely an issue. Even when the therapy has felt good and potentially healing, i have this underlying sense that i'm being propped up by someting thats not real. But anyway guess one can analyze this to death, but in the end you just try things and see what helps.

quote:

Originally posted by ElizaJ:
The concern with sharing her personal info was more that you said she 'told you things she hadn't told other clients' -THAT is what is of major concerns or me.

When I said you cannot possibly know for sure you would connect outside the rooms let me clarify that - yes, 'chemistry' might be there; you MIGHT have 'a lot' in common but s I said above - 99% of those you "'fall in love with' or 'get to know' in a dating sense, you do have all those feelings for and yet almost always it DOESN'T work out.

It takes weeks months, years to truly know someone. And that's when you are actively dating - a lot more contact and in a huge range of situations other than the one hour once a week in therapy.

She's said she does not feel that way - you want to believe she does - you perceive there's 'chemistry' - IF a T did happen to have feelings for a client and was sexually attracted to them the right thing to do would be to terminate therapy with that person.

So either one if two things are happening here - either she does have a spark for you and is making the very unprofessional and potentially highly damaging (to you) decision to keep seeing you; OR - she really does not have any feelings for you; you just feel there is when there isn't.

I do not disagree. However, i also don't think anything is as black and white as you are painting it. Even the finest therapist on the planet has to make judgements about what to share with a client, and to share absolutely nothing would mean acting like a robot and possibly draining the process of any sort of natural give and take. How can one build a healthy therapeutic connection without the T being human? Its a fine line of course.

I think what i am resisting here and on some of the blogs and websites talking about this topic, and with some of what my T has said to me is -- a tendency for general theories and truths to be applied in an absolute way to specific cases. And, a tendency for the client to be told what their feelings mean, with the assumption that their own insights are automatically secondary.

Hi Anton,

I have been following your thread. I just wanted to add that I know absolutely NOTHING about my T except her age and that she is a mother of 4 sons, and I feel a total connection with her. Probably more connected and grounded and safe than have with any other T previously and I have known my Ts and information about out of therapy.

Therapy is not supposed to be give and take, it is not supposed to a mutual thing, it is supposed to be 100% about the client. I am glad my T holds to that.

Please take care and be careful. It is devastating how things can unfold.

Mine doesn't share anything with me and, like GG, I find that leaves me feeling very safe.

I honestly only know her name, her qualification, where she works. I have ZERO idea if she is married, has kids, a partner, is a devout Christian, an atheist, ANYTHING. Oh - I know what care she drives also.

Other than that - nothing.

It's not every Ts style - but by being the 'blank state' has major advantages in therapy. It means if / when I project, I come up with what is in ME; it isn't 'contaminated' by the fact she is a parent or married or single or into fine needle craft.

And the perils of too much disclosure is almost endless.

I hope you talk to her honestly and I do encourage you to find a second T to go though this with - someone impartial and someone who can GUIDE YOU, because I think it's all too easy for us to give you advice and encouragement and even easier for you to ignore it.

Hi Anton,

I can understand your reaction. It's like being given a diagnosis - as though the assumption is that you are no longer an individual having an individual experience, but a set of typed and predictable characteristics and reactions. That doesn't match up with anyone's real experience of themselves.

I guess you just have to take what is helpful and leave the rest. You posted looking for insight into what sounds like a very painful experience to you. You wrote about being unsure whether to stay or go, and about feeling tortured by being near your therapist. I think a lot of us who have been in this bind or something similar *can* relate, which is what you asked about. And while each of us have experiences that are entirely unique in many ways, there are some commonalities in those experiences we discover as we learn about the stories of others. My impression is that a sense of this commonality is what you were originally reaching out for.

You may have been put off by the categorical way that I and perhaps others have written about this. For that I'm sorry, and maybe it would have been better to just share my own experiences rather than taking that approach. I guess the pattern is *so* pervasive in what I've seen, and the hurt is often *so* great, that one wants to erect a huge danger sign, even though one never knows for sure what is ahead for others.

Well, in case the personal is any use, I'll tell you what happened to me. I worked for a couple of years with a male therapist (I'm a woman) about my own age who shared many of my interests. I was never in love with him, but he was attractive, we had many things in common, I believe he admired me, and I had a lot of free-floating longing that I was trying to deal with, partly because my marriage was in bad shape. So often there was a sense of a 'spark' in our sessions.

And then he began to stretch the boundaries here and there, which was kind of flattering at times, and then just intrusive and upsetting and confusing. He told me stuff about himself that he needn't have shared, he asked for my professional advice during session time, he involved me in a very complicated professional crisis he was having that required him to switch practices, he asked me to lie about that to my husband and to mislead his practice manager....

All while I was trying to deal with my own personal crises and traumas, and I felt too much in the thick of my own stuff and too dependent on him to just break free. It was painful, frightening and expensive. It cost me money and time in my life that I was trying to dedicate to healing. The stress and chaos disrupted my relationship and my work.

**edited**

So, these are the personal experiences that inform my view of these situations. I will delete the stuff about my friend after you've read it. The point is not that you are the same as anyone else, or that your situation will end up the same, or that this fits some abstract psych theory, but that the pressures of certain circumstances tend to generate common outcomes. For what it's worth. Regardless, you will negotiate your own path through this, and I wish you very, very well with that.

** A couple of postscripts: Neither my friend nor I ever took the relationship to physical/sexual place. The harm was done by boundary breaking that was verbal and emotional. Also, my current therapist shares a lot of stuff about her life with me. But I know she'd share this stuff with any client where it was appropriate - and it's always in the service of the therapy and the health our relationship, never about her personal needs.

Hi GG/ElizaJ, I hear you, and i have also had previous therapists who shared very little personal info. But i also did not connect with them much or at all, and the process mostly left me feeling cold and unaffected. The current T has stirred something in me that had gone to sleep. Would this have happened without some personal sharing? Don't know.

Also, the current T and I had an emotional "moment" where i shed a few tears and then she did. It was very powerful and deepened the bond, and had much greater impact than any sharing of info. But perhaps it became too personal at that point. But perhaps it also created the human connection that leads to healing.

I actually asked her point blank 2 wks ago if she had become too involved. She said maybe. But it was involuntary emotional connection and while one could argue that it crossed a line, it also told me she really cares. This allowed me to expose more than i have with other therapists, who were detached and distant.

So yes i did feel safer with these other therapists, but there was little or no growth. Falling in love/infatuation with the current T has forced me to look at my dysfunctional and unsatisfying relationship with my partner. Has woken me up to what its like to really connect and has shined a light on my deeply troubled relationship with women in general.

Nothing will "happen" with this T, quite sure of that. The downside is the heartbreak and rejection and humiliation I've already suffered. I can use this for growth or let it defeat me. It continues to be a very difficult thing to navigate...

Hi Anton,

It's not unusual for some Ts to cry with their clients; it's a sign of very deep empathy and care.

My T also shares info about himself--when it is appropriate and relevant to an issue I'm working through. Like you, I see some self-disclosure as good for strengthening the emotional connection.

What has me and the others on the board concerned is your T treating you as special (disclosing more to you than others) and then admitting it. The fact that she may have some sort of romantic attraction to you is (mostly) irrelevant; what's of concern is how she is handling it. Allowing someone to rummage through the deepest parts of your psyche can be very healing, but without boundaries it's outright dangerous. That may be why you feel so unsettled in her presence; she's not holding the kind of boundaries you need to feel totally safe.

This isn't an issue of trying to force your experience into a box of psychobabble. There are things Ts are clearly not supposed to do--as outlined by a board of professional ethics.

- A T should never discuss personal problems/issues with a client.

- A T should never ask a client for personal or professional advice.

- A T should never invite, encourage or initiate a romantic relationship with a client.

- A T should never say things like, "If things were different, we could...hang out/date/go to dinner/etc."

Make no mistake: the relationship you have with your T is unique, special and meaningful. I don't believe strong therapeutic connections can be contrived.

However, your T is a paid professional and, like a medical doctor, has a legal and ethical obligation to do no harm. Feeding your infatuation, allowing you believe that you could have a life with her beyond therapy, is extremely harmful. Unless she stops her behavior and sets clear boundaries, this will only end in pain.

Affinity...

This is an awesome post. You articulated every thing succinctly.

Anton,

I feel for you.

Hi Jones,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. You've summarized well what I am getting at with recent posts. Definitely it's hearing the experiences of others that is the main thing for me.

I did seek advice in a secondary way with my orig post, but getting and giving advice online is a perilous thing, given that none of us have ever met and know essentially nothing about one another. And so advice can easily become overbearing and presumptuous if it's too forceful.

True, personal experiences can be universalized some, but its a fine line. In the chronic illness groups online that i have frequented, there are ppl giving very specific medical advice to other ppl, based on their own experiences. Like "you MUST take supplement XYZ or you WILL perish". It can be dangerous as hell. Giver and receiver must exercise caution and moderation.

Thx for sharing the personal stuff. What you went thru sounds intense and difficult. Sorry you had top endure this. My situation is quite different.

Hi Affinity,

Yes no doubt the crying was a sign of real empathy. My point was that this, more than any voluntary disclosure or personal sharing, deepened the connection. As for what she has shared beyond the norm for her, i believe it has mostly been of an incremental nature, tho don't know for sure.

I saw her yesterday and she actually brought up that boundaries have become a little too fluid with me. Not in the way of romantic insinuations, but rather things like going over the allotted time, and allowing me to indulge too much. She is going to seek consultation with another therapist on this. As i said previously, i am concerned. But i'm an adult too, and have to be accountable for where I am taking things. We are both struggling, but we are both saying so clearly. Its a collaboration.

Seems like lot of ppl here have been burned in therapy or had bad experiences. I suppose that is what drives ppl to forums like this. But it seems to be coloring the discussion with a noticeable sense of alarm or doom. Better safe than sorry, i know.

But to be honest i feel like my T is actually quite good and i do not feel a sense of impending catastrophe. Problem is i happen to find her enormously attractive and appealing but also unavailable, and its not easy to sit with that time after time, and its causing me to push hard against boundaries, and THAT is the crux of it.

BTW, my T has never done any of the things you list.