Hi ElizaJ, thanks for the feedback. Not sure if you saw previous posts in this thread, but most of this has already been pointed out by others or acknowledged by me.
There have been a few things she shared with me, fairly minor things i believe, of a personal nature. But this was in the flow of things and not overt or excessive. I think we both have realized we have a good general connection. She has been clear for her it is no more than that. I am the one expressing much more.
However i am concerned a bit. Sometimes she laughs at my jokes and it feels like *that* kind of laugh, that every guy wants from a woman. But I am desperate and vulnerable, so i read into everything. And yes she is chuffed, i can see it, especially given how over the top my declarations. Another concern. But i will only suffer so much before i bail out.
Anyway, my original reason for posting was not so much to get advice as to share experiences and have dialog. No offense, but some of what you've said is quite heavy handed advice and a bit alarmist, even tho it's also totally relevant. Just an observation. I know it's logical to give advice to the new guy, but a good dialog helps everyone.
For example: "when you say you really do know she would be someone you would connect with - in reality you can't possibly know that in the limited context of therapy, for the reasons I've highlighted above". Don't know how you can possibly say this, without being in the room. Again, chemistry and compatibility are clearly very different things, yet chemistry is undeniable when you feel it, wherever it comes about. That's ALL i am saying.
thanks
anton
The concern with sharing her personal info was more that you said she 'told you things she hadn't told other clients' -THAT is what is of major concerns or me.
When I said you cannot possibly know for sure you would connect outside the rooms let me clarify that - yes, 'chemistry' might be there; you MIGHT have 'a lot' in common but s I said above - 99% of those you "'fall in love with' or 'get to know' in a dating sense, you do have all those feelings for and yet almost always it DOESN'T work out.
It takes weeks months, years to truly know someone. And that's when you are actively dating - a lot more contact and in a huge range of situations other than the one hour once a week in therapy.
She's said she does not feel that way - you want to believe she does - you perceive there's 'chemistry' - IF a T did happen to have feelings for a client and was sexually attracted to them the right thing to do would be to terminate therapy with that person.
So either one if two things are happening here - either she does have a spark for you and is making the very unprofessional and potentially highly damaging (to you) decision to keep seeing you; OR - she really does not have any feelings for you; you just feel there is when there isn't.
When I said you cannot possibly know for sure you would connect outside the rooms let me clarify that - yes, 'chemistry' might be there; you MIGHT have 'a lot' in common but s I said above - 99% of those you "'fall in love with' or 'get to know' in a dating sense, you do have all those feelings for and yet almost always it DOESN'T work out.
It takes weeks months, years to truly know someone. And that's when you are actively dating - a lot more contact and in a huge range of situations other than the one hour once a week in therapy.
She's said she does not feel that way - you want to believe she does - you perceive there's 'chemistry' - IF a T did happen to have feelings for a client and was sexually attracted to them the right thing to do would be to terminate therapy with that person.
So either one if two things are happening here - either she does have a spark for you and is making the very unprofessional and potentially highly damaging (to you) decision to keep seeing you; OR - she really does not have any feelings for you; you just feel there is when there isn't.
One more thing (sorry) ...
If she is giving you enough information about herself that you are able to conclude you would 'connect' outside the rooms, then it's no longer effective therapy for you - therapy is about YOU - her needs, wishes, desires, thoughts, feelings aren't the focus.
So again - either she is talking a lot about herself and what SHE thinks and feels (enough for you to 'know' she would be compatible for you in a relationship) OR she isn't, and you just think you know enough about her to feel you would 'connect'.
If she is giving you enough information about herself that you are able to conclude you would 'connect' outside the rooms, then it's no longer effective therapy for you - therapy is about YOU - her needs, wishes, desires, thoughts, feelings aren't the focus.
So again - either she is talking a lot about herself and what SHE thinks and feels (enough for you to 'know' she would be compatible for you in a relationship) OR she isn't, and you just think you know enough about her to feel you would 'connect'.
quote:Originally posted by PassionFruit:
One point I made is any one-sided relationship does not seem genuine; it feels manufactured. Any relationship has some mutuality to it - mutual trust and vulnerability.
Passion Fruit
Yes, indeed. My T used the word "contrived" which i think fits. It's definitely an issue. Even when the therapy has felt good and potentially healing, i have this underlying sense that i'm being propped up by someting thats not real. But anyway guess one can analyze this to death, but in the end you just try things and see what helps.
quote:Originally posted by ElizaJ:
The concern with sharing her personal info was more that you said she 'told you things she hadn't told other clients' -THAT is what is of major concerns or me.
When I said you cannot possibly know for sure you would connect outside the rooms let me clarify that - yes, 'chemistry' might be there; you MIGHT have 'a lot' in common but s I said above - 99% of those you "'fall in love with' or 'get to know' in a dating sense, you do have all those feelings for and yet almost always it DOESN'T work out.
It takes weeks months, years to truly know someone. And that's when you are actively dating - a lot more contact and in a huge range of situations other than the one hour once a week in therapy.
She's said she does not feel that way - you want to believe she does - you perceive there's 'chemistry' - IF a T did happen to have feelings for a client and was sexually attracted to them the right thing to do would be to terminate therapy with that person.
So either one if two things are happening here - either she does have a spark for you and is making the very unprofessional and potentially highly damaging (to you) decision to keep seeing you; OR - she really does not have any feelings for you; you just feel there is when there isn't.
I do not disagree. However, i also don't think anything is as black and white as you are painting it. Even the finest therapist on the planet has to make judgements about what to share with a client, and to share absolutely nothing would mean acting like a robot and possibly draining the process of any sort of natural give and take. How can one build a healthy therapeutic connection without the T being human? Its a fine line of course.
I think what i am resisting here and on some of the blogs and websites talking about this topic, and with some of what my T has said to me is -- a tendency for general theories and truths to be applied in an absolute way to specific cases. And, a tendency for the client to be told what their feelings mean, with the assumption that their own insights are automatically secondary.
Hi Anton,
I have been following your thread. I just wanted to add that I know absolutely NOTHING about my T except her age and that she is a mother of 4 sons, and I feel a total connection with her. Probably more connected and grounded and safe than have with any other T previously and I have known my Ts and information about out of therapy.
Therapy is not supposed to be give and take, it is not supposed to a mutual thing, it is supposed to be 100% about the client. I am glad my T holds to that.
Please take care and be careful. It is devastating how things can unfold.
I have been following your thread. I just wanted to add that I know absolutely NOTHING about my T except her age and that she is a mother of 4 sons, and I feel a total connection with her. Probably more connected and grounded and safe than have with any other T previously and I have known my Ts and information about out of therapy.
Therapy is not supposed to be give and take, it is not supposed to a mutual thing, it is supposed to be 100% about the client. I am glad my T holds to that.
Please take care and be careful. It is devastating how things can unfold.
Mine doesn't share anything with me and, like GG, I find that leaves me feeling very safe.
I honestly only know her name, her qualification, where she works. I have ZERO idea if she is married, has kids, a partner, is a devout Christian, an atheist, ANYTHING. Oh - I know what care she drives also.
Other than that - nothing.
It's not every Ts style - but by being the 'blank state' has major advantages in therapy. It means if / when I project, I come up with what is in ME; it isn't 'contaminated' by the fact she is a parent or married or single or into fine needle craft.
And the perils of too much disclosure is almost endless.
I hope you talk to her honestly and I do encourage you to find a second T to go though this with - someone impartial and someone who can GUIDE YOU, because I think it's all too easy for us to give you advice and encouragement and even easier for you to ignore it.
I honestly only know her name, her qualification, where she works. I have ZERO idea if she is married, has kids, a partner, is a devout Christian, an atheist, ANYTHING. Oh - I know what care she drives also.
Other than that - nothing.
It's not every Ts style - but by being the 'blank state' has major advantages in therapy. It means if / when I project, I come up with what is in ME; it isn't 'contaminated' by the fact she is a parent or married or single or into fine needle craft.
And the perils of too much disclosure is almost endless.
I hope you talk to her honestly and I do encourage you to find a second T to go though this with - someone impartial and someone who can GUIDE YOU, because I think it's all too easy for us to give you advice and encouragement and even easier for you to ignore it.
Hi Anton,
I can understand your reaction. It's like being given a diagnosis - as though the assumption is that you are no longer an individual having an individual experience, but a set of typed and predictable characteristics and reactions. That doesn't match up with anyone's real experience of themselves.
I guess you just have to take what is helpful and leave the rest. You posted looking for insight into what sounds like a very painful experience to you. You wrote about being unsure whether to stay or go, and about feeling tortured by being near your therapist. I think a lot of us who have been in this bind or something similar *can* relate, which is what you asked about. And while each of us have experiences that are entirely unique in many ways, there are some commonalities in those experiences we discover as we learn about the stories of others. My impression is that a sense of this commonality is what you were originally reaching out for.
You may have been put off by the categorical way that I and perhaps others have written about this. For that I'm sorry, and maybe it would have been better to just share my own experiences rather than taking that approach. I guess the pattern is *so* pervasive in what I've seen, and the hurt is often *so* great, that one wants to erect a huge danger sign, even though one never knows for sure what is ahead for others.
Well, in case the personal is any use, I'll tell you what happened to me. I worked for a couple of years with a male therapist (I'm a woman) about my own age who shared many of my interests. I was never in love with him, but he was attractive, we had many things in common, I believe he admired me, and I had a lot of free-floating longing that I was trying to deal with, partly because my marriage was in bad shape. So often there was a sense of a 'spark' in our sessions.
And then he began to stretch the boundaries here and there, which was kind of flattering at times, and then just intrusive and upsetting and confusing. He told me stuff about himself that he needn't have shared, he asked for my professional advice during session time, he involved me in a very complicated professional crisis he was having that required him to switch practices, he asked me to lie about that to my husband and to mislead his practice manager....
All while I was trying to deal with my own personal crises and traumas, and I felt too much in the thick of my own stuff and too dependent on him to just break free. It was painful, frightening and expensive. It cost me money and time in my life that I was trying to dedicate to healing. The stress and chaos disrupted my relationship and my work.
**edited**
So, these are the personal experiences that inform my view of these situations. I will delete the stuff about my friend after you've read it. The point is not that you are the same as anyone else, or that your situation will end up the same, or that this fits some abstract psych theory, but that the pressures of certain circumstances tend to generate common outcomes. For what it's worth. Regardless, you will negotiate your own path through this, and I wish you very, very well with that.
** A couple of postscripts: Neither my friend nor I ever took the relationship to physical/sexual place. The harm was done by boundary breaking that was verbal and emotional. Also, my current therapist shares a lot of stuff about her life with me. But I know she'd share this stuff with any client where it was appropriate - and it's always in the service of the therapy and the health our relationship, never about her personal needs.
I can understand your reaction. It's like being given a diagnosis - as though the assumption is that you are no longer an individual having an individual experience, but a set of typed and predictable characteristics and reactions. That doesn't match up with anyone's real experience of themselves.
I guess you just have to take what is helpful and leave the rest. You posted looking for insight into what sounds like a very painful experience to you. You wrote about being unsure whether to stay or go, and about feeling tortured by being near your therapist. I think a lot of us who have been in this bind or something similar *can* relate, which is what you asked about. And while each of us have experiences that are entirely unique in many ways, there are some commonalities in those experiences we discover as we learn about the stories of others. My impression is that a sense of this commonality is what you were originally reaching out for.
You may have been put off by the categorical way that I and perhaps others have written about this. For that I'm sorry, and maybe it would have been better to just share my own experiences rather than taking that approach. I guess the pattern is *so* pervasive in what I've seen, and the hurt is often *so* great, that one wants to erect a huge danger sign, even though one never knows for sure what is ahead for others.
Well, in case the personal is any use, I'll tell you what happened to me. I worked for a couple of years with a male therapist (I'm a woman) about my own age who shared many of my interests. I was never in love with him, but he was attractive, we had many things in common, I believe he admired me, and I had a lot of free-floating longing that I was trying to deal with, partly because my marriage was in bad shape. So often there was a sense of a 'spark' in our sessions.
And then he began to stretch the boundaries here and there, which was kind of flattering at times, and then just intrusive and upsetting and confusing. He told me stuff about himself that he needn't have shared, he asked for my professional advice during session time, he involved me in a very complicated professional crisis he was having that required him to switch practices, he asked me to lie about that to my husband and to mislead his practice manager....
All while I was trying to deal with my own personal crises and traumas, and I felt too much in the thick of my own stuff and too dependent on him to just break free. It was painful, frightening and expensive. It cost me money and time in my life that I was trying to dedicate to healing. The stress and chaos disrupted my relationship and my work.
**edited**
So, these are the personal experiences that inform my view of these situations. I will delete the stuff about my friend after you've read it. The point is not that you are the same as anyone else, or that your situation will end up the same, or that this fits some abstract psych theory, but that the pressures of certain circumstances tend to generate common outcomes. For what it's worth. Regardless, you will negotiate your own path through this, and I wish you very, very well with that.
** A couple of postscripts: Neither my friend nor I ever took the relationship to physical/sexual place. The harm was done by boundary breaking that was verbal and emotional. Also, my current therapist shares a lot of stuff about her life with me. But I know she'd share this stuff with any client where it was appropriate - and it's always in the service of the therapy and the health our relationship, never about her personal needs.
Hi GG/ElizaJ, I hear you, and i have also had previous therapists who shared very little personal info. But i also did not connect with them much or at all, and the process mostly left me feeling cold and unaffected. The current T has stirred something in me that had gone to sleep. Would this have happened without some personal sharing? Don't know.
Also, the current T and I had an emotional "moment" where i shed a few tears and then she did. It was very powerful and deepened the bond, and had much greater impact than any sharing of info. But perhaps it became too personal at that point. But perhaps it also created the human connection that leads to healing.
I actually asked her point blank 2 wks ago if she had become too involved. She said maybe. But it was involuntary emotional connection and while one could argue that it crossed a line, it also told me she really cares. This allowed me to expose more than i have with other therapists, who were detached and distant.
So yes i did feel safer with these other therapists, but there was little or no growth. Falling in love/infatuation with the current T has forced me to look at my dysfunctional and unsatisfying relationship with my partner. Has woken me up to what its like to really connect and has shined a light on my deeply troubled relationship with women in general.
Nothing will "happen" with this T, quite sure of that. The downside is the heartbreak and rejection and humiliation I've already suffered. I can use this for growth or let it defeat me. It continues to be a very difficult thing to navigate...
Also, the current T and I had an emotional "moment" where i shed a few tears and then she did. It was very powerful and deepened the bond, and had much greater impact than any sharing of info. But perhaps it became too personal at that point. But perhaps it also created the human connection that leads to healing.
I actually asked her point blank 2 wks ago if she had become too involved. She said maybe. But it was involuntary emotional connection and while one could argue that it crossed a line, it also told me she really cares. This allowed me to expose more than i have with other therapists, who were detached and distant.
So yes i did feel safer with these other therapists, but there was little or no growth. Falling in love/infatuation with the current T has forced me to look at my dysfunctional and unsatisfying relationship with my partner. Has woken me up to what its like to really connect and has shined a light on my deeply troubled relationship with women in general.
Nothing will "happen" with this T, quite sure of that. The downside is the heartbreak and rejection and humiliation I've already suffered. I can use this for growth or let it defeat me. It continues to be a very difficult thing to navigate...
Hi Anton,
It's not unusual for some Ts to cry with their clients; it's a sign of very deep empathy and care.
My T also shares info about himself--when it is appropriate and relevant to an issue I'm working through. Like you, I see some self-disclosure as good for strengthening the emotional connection.
What has me and the others on the board concerned is your T treating you as special (disclosing more to you than others) and then admitting it. The fact that she may have some sort of romantic attraction to you is (mostly) irrelevant; what's of concern is how she is handling it. Allowing someone to rummage through the deepest parts of your psyche can be very healing, but without boundaries it's outright dangerous. That may be why you feel so unsettled in her presence; she's not holding the kind of boundaries you need to feel totally safe.
This isn't an issue of trying to force your experience into a box of psychobabble. There are things Ts are clearly not supposed to do--as outlined by a board of professional ethics.
- A T should never discuss personal problems/issues with a client.
- A T should never ask a client for personal or professional advice.
- A T should never invite, encourage or initiate a romantic relationship with a client.
- A T should never say things like, "If things were different, we could...hang out/date/go to dinner/etc."
Make no mistake: the relationship you have with your T is unique, special and meaningful. I don't believe strong therapeutic connections can be contrived.
However, your T is a paid professional and, like a medical doctor, has a legal and ethical obligation to do no harm. Feeding your infatuation, allowing you believe that you could have a life with her beyond therapy, is extremely harmful. Unless she stops her behavior and sets clear boundaries, this will only end in pain.
It's not unusual for some Ts to cry with their clients; it's a sign of very deep empathy and care.
My T also shares info about himself--when it is appropriate and relevant to an issue I'm working through. Like you, I see some self-disclosure as good for strengthening the emotional connection.
What has me and the others on the board concerned is your T treating you as special (disclosing more to you than others) and then admitting it. The fact that she may have some sort of romantic attraction to you is (mostly) irrelevant; what's of concern is how she is handling it. Allowing someone to rummage through the deepest parts of your psyche can be very healing, but without boundaries it's outright dangerous. That may be why you feel so unsettled in her presence; she's not holding the kind of boundaries you need to feel totally safe.
This isn't an issue of trying to force your experience into a box of psychobabble. There are things Ts are clearly not supposed to do--as outlined by a board of professional ethics.
- A T should never discuss personal problems/issues with a client.
- A T should never ask a client for personal or professional advice.
- A T should never invite, encourage or initiate a romantic relationship with a client.
- A T should never say things like, "If things were different, we could...hang out/date/go to dinner/etc."
Make no mistake: the relationship you have with your T is unique, special and meaningful. I don't believe strong therapeutic connections can be contrived.
However, your T is a paid professional and, like a medical doctor, has a legal and ethical obligation to do no harm. Feeding your infatuation, allowing you believe that you could have a life with her beyond therapy, is extremely harmful. Unless she stops her behavior and sets clear boundaries, this will only end in pain.
Affinity...
This is an awesome post. You articulated every thing succinctly.
Anton,
I feel for you.
This is an awesome post. You articulated every thing succinctly.
Anton,
I feel for you.
Hi Jones,
Thanks for the thoughtful post. You've summarized well what I am getting at with recent posts. Definitely it's hearing the experiences of others that is the main thing for me.
I did seek advice in a secondary way with my orig post, but getting and giving advice online is a perilous thing, given that none of us have ever met and know essentially nothing about one another. And so advice can easily become overbearing and presumptuous if it's too forceful.
True, personal experiences can be universalized some, but its a fine line. In the chronic illness groups online that i have frequented, there are ppl giving very specific medical advice to other ppl, based on their own experiences. Like "you MUST take supplement XYZ or you WILL perish". It can be dangerous as hell. Giver and receiver must exercise caution and moderation.
Thx for sharing the personal stuff. What you went thru sounds intense and difficult. Sorry you had top endure this. My situation is quite different.
Thanks for the thoughtful post. You've summarized well what I am getting at with recent posts. Definitely it's hearing the experiences of others that is the main thing for me.
I did seek advice in a secondary way with my orig post, but getting and giving advice online is a perilous thing, given that none of us have ever met and know essentially nothing about one another. And so advice can easily become overbearing and presumptuous if it's too forceful.
True, personal experiences can be universalized some, but its a fine line. In the chronic illness groups online that i have frequented, there are ppl giving very specific medical advice to other ppl, based on their own experiences. Like "you MUST take supplement XYZ or you WILL perish". It can be dangerous as hell. Giver and receiver must exercise caution and moderation.
Thx for sharing the personal stuff. What you went thru sounds intense and difficult. Sorry you had top endure this. My situation is quite different.
Hi Affinity,
Yes no doubt the crying was a sign of real empathy. My point was that this, more than any voluntary disclosure or personal sharing, deepened the connection. As for what she has shared beyond the norm for her, i believe it has mostly been of an incremental nature, tho don't know for sure.
I saw her yesterday and she actually brought up that boundaries have become a little too fluid with me. Not in the way of romantic insinuations, but rather things like going over the allotted time, and allowing me to indulge too much. She is going to seek consultation with another therapist on this. As i said previously, i am concerned. But i'm an adult too, and have to be accountable for where I am taking things. We are both struggling, but we are both saying so clearly. Its a collaboration.
Seems like lot of ppl here have been burned in therapy or had bad experiences. I suppose that is what drives ppl to forums like this. But it seems to be coloring the discussion with a noticeable sense of alarm or doom. Better safe than sorry, i know.
But to be honest i feel like my T is actually quite good and i do not feel a sense of impending catastrophe. Problem is i happen to find her enormously attractive and appealing but also unavailable, and its not easy to sit with that time after time, and its causing me to push hard against boundaries, and THAT is the crux of it.
BTW, my T has never done any of the things you list.
Yes no doubt the crying was a sign of real empathy. My point was that this, more than any voluntary disclosure or personal sharing, deepened the connection. As for what she has shared beyond the norm for her, i believe it has mostly been of an incremental nature, tho don't know for sure.
I saw her yesterday and she actually brought up that boundaries have become a little too fluid with me. Not in the way of romantic insinuations, but rather things like going over the allotted time, and allowing me to indulge too much. She is going to seek consultation with another therapist on this. As i said previously, i am concerned. But i'm an adult too, and have to be accountable for where I am taking things. We are both struggling, but we are both saying so clearly. Its a collaboration.
Seems like lot of ppl here have been burned in therapy or had bad experiences. I suppose that is what drives ppl to forums like this. But it seems to be coloring the discussion with a noticeable sense of alarm or doom. Better safe than sorry, i know.
But to be honest i feel like my T is actually quite good and i do not feel a sense of impending catastrophe. Problem is i happen to find her enormously attractive and appealing but also unavailable, and its not easy to sit with that time after time, and its causing me to push hard against boundaries, and THAT is the crux of it.
BTW, my T has never done any of the things you list.