Blue,
Many many years ago, I had this issue with a T as far as the boundaries go. He used to take me out to eat, we used to go to the mall, he introduced me to his family and accepted me into his home. At the time it felt good because that is what I was longing for and what I wanted but in retrospect it really blurred the line. Having boundaries is part of therapy to ensure the safety (emotional, psychological and physical). I became more entwined with pleasing him than feeling what I was really feeling. It ended very badly. Can you tell your T that you need and would feel more comfortable with some new boundaries. Alot of times growing up, we suffered from not having any boundaries or having our boundaries violated and we need those boundaries in place as adults to protect us.

Maybe it's a good time to find a new T with more usual boundaries? Gently back off from this one (I do understand how hard that might be). You want to get stronger and happier right? Sounds like this relationship isn't meeting that aim any more?

SB

Hi Blue,

Well done backing off a bit - a 6 week break is a great start. She sounds very intense... almost like she needs you to need her? Sometimes people get into the therapy business to meet their own needs and end up not focused and attuned to their clients needs. We are very very vulnerable to such dynamics when we haven't had our needs met as children - but in the long run, you can see it isn't what will help you get your life running better.

On the other hand very very strict boundaries may also not be what will help. You need someone that can appropriately meet your needs, be available to a certain extent and that you feel comfortable with. Also you need someone you can afford - cos that worry just grows.

Perhaps you can tell the 1st T you need a break and you will text her once a week and that you would be happy for her to reply to that? If she reacts badly... as painful as that might be, it would be a sign that your needs are not her first concern.

Thinking of you

sb

Oh, gosh, blue - this is such a hard spot to be in. Inside of me, my limbic system is screaming, RUN, RUN! I have been the "victim" of a boundary-less T and the outcome was painful-painful-painful. Worse than terminating. I know it can be hard to detach when so many of your needs SEEM to be met - but definitely a better choice than waiting for it to play out.

SHE is getting needs met through you, and that's dangerous. And, at some point, she may feel that she can't give the level that she has and it is likely she will drop you like a cold stone. That is brutal to experience.

There are other good Ts who can support you in ways you need, help you grow and help you find your strength.

I suggest interviewing two or three, just to get some different perspectives and to see some different styles. Then choose one and give yourself a trial period, say a month or two. If it seems like a good fit - go for it. If it isn't just what you need, try someone else. This is an important relationship. Don't leave it to chance.

((((blue))))

-RT

Unfortunately, therapists like this aren't as rare as they should be. People like that are so stuck in their own issues that they aren't able to help anyone else, and I think you're right that she is making you worse. I was once in a relationship with a woman like this (not a T), and in the end she decided she had no more use for me and kicked me to the curb while telling me everything she thought was wrong with me. It took me YEARS to see it was never about me, it was all about her.

It's time to find a new T, blue. I'm sorry because I know it hurts a lot

You have support here... you can find a T that will make it about YOU not her... run blue... please?

sb

Blue,
Just read your last post about your T being retired and you being her last client, and also where you said you needed a therapist to leave your current T. My gut screamed for you to run. I so understand not wanting to leave a T because they seem to give you what you want/need. It is horrible because your heart is pulling you one way, but your head is somewhere else. Based on what you have shared, I think that your assessment of the situation is right on target. It has the potential to be a very dangerous and damaging situation to you. I think if my T actually sought me out as you have described yours has I would FREAK inside. Is is possible for you to consult with another T regarding this issue and slowly integrate a new T into your life as you disengage from your current T? I know this hurts. I am sorry you are experiencing this. Your T sounds like she is not respecting your boundaries and her issues are getting in the way. Huge healing hugs to you. I really identify.

(((((blue)))))

Really doesn't sound that way to us here - many of us have been in similar situations and afterwards you can see the dynamics. Keep you safe blue.

sb

People like your T prey on people who had a certain kind of mother because they get confused and doubt themselves about whether they are being used or not.

Guess what, there is a T I know of who is like yours (except I think she does keep boundaries somewhat better) and she has a WHOLE GROUP of women who ALL had "narcissistic mothers" which she even advertises. Do you think it's a coincidence that she just HAPPENS to run group therapy for women with the same exact kind of mother and that it's an ongoing group? No, she managed to find out exactly what kind of person would swallow every word she said and meet her need to be worshipped.

In a sense she IS right that things are about your mom...but only in the sense that your history with your mom makes you tolerate your T's behavior. Someone with a different kind of mom would have left a long time ago.

Blue,

It has been myexperience that all my T subsequent to the relationship I had with the T I mentioned to you in my initial response have believed me and have actually apologized on behalf of the ethics of their profession being breached and a client being harmed. Not everything is about transference or about our past. Some things are FACTS and if the FACTS are that this T actually seeks you out in between sessions and encourages communication or initiates communication between sessions I completely think it is damaging. I know for me as a client in therapy, I have to learn how not to be dependent on my therapist and I want to learn to and have to learn for my own development to make it through without her direct assistance. I actually feel scared for you Blue and that is my own stuff. I hope you can just try to talk to another professional about it. I don't think your T's intentions are in any way bad, but what is happening is making you feel uncomfortable.... which is good, because you acknowledge your boundaries. And boundaries are good and necessary!

I wish you gentle passage through this. Please keep us posted. Definately here to support you and understand.

blue - you say you wonder if another T would believe.... My T says that the only thing that really matters is how I perceive or experience the situation. It doesn't really matter if (for example), I was abused or not. My feelings are what we deal with. The past is over. All we've got is the version I carry with me. That's the work.

So, about believing... it shouldn't matter and I don't think you have to prove anything one way or another.

-RT

And if it gets too hard, this separating from your T, please remember it's okay to miss her, to want to go back. You don't have to paint her all black in your mind, as you said, she did/does mean something to you. Even now it´s better to go and find another T, it´s okay to feel and remember the good things too. You are even helping her by setting the boundaries straight. But ofcourse it is first and foremost about you.

Where did you get the idea that she is the only one who cares for you? That seems pretty improbable...

(((B)))

I hope through therapy you can see, find or accept care from others too. Sometimes I've felt like my T is the only one that cares or could care. It's then that I reach out to friends and stuff and see if I can see it around me. You matter and BLT might be right that there is more than your T who cares.

(((((BLUE)))))

quote:

Nobody has ever made me feel that i matter to them.

That's the worst and lonliest feeling in the world. I hope you don't have to feel that way too much longer.

Good luck with this latest T, blue.

It sounds like you have a really strong grip on what it is you need, and are seeking it out... so kudos for that. I'm rooting for you. It sounds like it's time to move on, and fingers crossed there's an awesome T waiting in the wings to help you complete this journey.

Blue-

What you wrote struck a chord with me. I felt very similar feelings with my former T. We spent a lot of time on her needs over the years. I sometimes felt I was trying to be her therapist. She told me I could call her, but wouldn't give me rules on when and how frequent. Then, she would tell me about places she hangs out at and about when, so just in case I ran into her we could chat. I have run into her a lot in our small community and after that she would remind me of boundaries in so many words. One time I did ask her specifically her boundaries and she told me that it was only chit chat if I ran into her and it was nothing more than that.
After 2.5 years of many great and not-so-great memories and sessions, I left and got a new T. My relationship with new T is definitely a professional business relationship with boundaries and no temptations or leading me to believe otherwise.

I wish you all the best with this situation. I understand your heart and your head being torn. At times I still long to go back to former T (my heart). My mind tells me that I need a different kind of therapy.
Oddly enough I might end up working in the same building as former T does though. strange.
My well wishes to you, Blue!

I did t read all the posts - I did read most of the first and last pages though - I am so sorry this has happened to you. I really really hope your new T gives you all the time you need to talk about what has happened.

I couldn't read all the posts because it scared the hell out of me that a T could be this abusive with their boundaries - I guess it reminds me too much of my own (abusive) mother - on one hand making it SEEM like it was about meeting MY needs but in truth it was ALWAYS about HER.

What you've described with your old T sounds like she is using you for HER NEEDS without ANY real thought as to how it leaves YOU feeling. It sounds very co-dependent on HER part. Gosh my heart breaks for how it must be leaving you feeling.

My thoughts are with you today!

She is meant to be concerned about your feelings... not the other way around I'm sorry she got upset, but you didn't do anything wrong blue.

Hope you can manage not to get sucked back into this dynamic with her.

sb

quote:

Originally posted by sapphire-blue:
She is meant to be concerned about your feelings... not the other way around I'm sorry she got upset, but you didn't do anything wrong blue.

Hope you can manage not to get sucked back into this dynamic with her.

sb

Wow. She sounds so incredibly like my NARCISSISTIC mother - Can you see how she immediately turned the entire situation around so that SHE is the victim???

Honestly - google narcissistic mothers and you will likely very much relate to what she is doing and has done.

You are so incredibly brave and courageous to go see her and tell her exactly how you felt. I can't admire you enough for this - god, you're so much more together and mentally and emotionally balanced in this than she is - but a long shot.

Clearly she has major issues and has not worked through them at all.

She should not be practising, period. She's a danger to her clients - she really is.

BLUE - y have done absolutely NOTHING WRONG here. She has manipulated an exploited you - when you're at your most vulnerable. that you've managed to see the situation for want it really is, AND take the incredibly difficult steps to leave - let alone confront her - is just proof oh how STEONG you are - Really, truly.

That you are feeling it's your fault and you did wrong is BECAUSE if HER manipulation. Your feeling bad is a warning sign of HER wrong doing, NOT anything to do with YOU doing anything wrong at all .

Think of the feelings of shame, guilt, fear, worry that she is hurting, not as 'sow thing wrong with YOU' but merely a redflag TO you that she crossed some serious boundaries and you ended to GET AWAY from her manipulating ways.

Yr feelings are not proof of you being wrong - but symptoms of the damage she's done to you

Safe hugs if ok

Ps - if at some point you can, I think putting in an official complaint with her professional body would ensure she does not do this to anyone else / and make her realise SHE IS WRONG.

Pps - did it go ok with the new T????

Can you make an app to see the. ASAP so yu have support I. Dealing with this, and helping you put in boundaries with the old T so she leaves you ALONE???

If you can change your phone numbers I would. Heck, tell her no contact, period, or yu will get a restraining order - Despite what she tells you - HER FEELINGS ARE NOT YOUR RESPONIBILITY. it is NOT your job to help her feel less sad / hurt or whatever - she's meant to be a therapist for god sake - she needs to be able to sort her own shit out and not expect her CLIENTS too!!!

I think you definitely need to tell her on no uncertain terms NO CONTACT, effective IMMEDIATELY.

Whether or not you do it by phone - leave a voice message or hang up once hVe said yr piece so she CANNOT then try to manipulate you further or turn it around into her being the victim - or you do so in writing - or even ask your new T to tell her to LEAVE YOU ALONE.

And seriously - if she CANNOT respect that then get a restraining order!!!!

This isn't even about 'ring or wrong' or if she's a 'bad' or 'ok' person - It's about PROTECTING YOURSELF FROM FURTHER TRAUMA

maybe even tell her that - and if she tries (cos she will) to turn it around how sad it is for her or how much she is hurting - hell down the phone ITS NOT ABOUT YOU!!!

Blue, I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling guilty about leaving former T.
She does sound rather narcissistic and like she's trying to be a victim in this situation. Maybe she hasn't dealt well with her own issues. I'm glad to hear that she is retired. It sounds like she is burnt out.
Blue, you did nothing wrong. It's more than ok for you to leave this therapist! It's your decision/choice! You are strong and brave!

You sound so relieved! That must be a good sign. And come back whenever you need us!

You deserve the support - perhaps the new T can support you leaving this less-than-helpful relationship?

Thinking of you.

sb

Blue,

The fact that she was adamant she hadn't done anything wrong is a red flag all by itself. A T should always be open to hearing from their clients about how their clients perceive them (even if it's really uncomfortable) and no T is immune from getting pulled into a trauma re-enactment, or burning themselves out trying to be their clients' saviour. Some Ts don't set out to harm their clients but end up doing so all the same.

Your Ts feelings are her responsibility. You are allowed to feel the way you do. How she chooses to respond (and it is a choice) is down to her. You didn't make her sad, angry or disappointed. Any of those feelings are her responsibility to manage.

I think someone on this forum may have posted this link before to a resource for therapists on boundary crossings. I'm going to quote a section because it lists red flags - and I'm hoping it will help you see that your T's opinion that she hasn't done anything ethically dodgy would not necessarily shared by others in the profession.

https://www.continuingedcourse...ourses/course066.php

quote:

Here we offer another personal assessment in the form of some early warning signs of nonsexual boundary crossings that could cause confusion and disadvantage clients. These signals, some of which are adapted from Epstein and Simon (1990), Keith-Spiegel, 2014; Pope and Keith-Spiegel (2008), and Walker and Clark (1999), include the following:

• Actively seeking opportunities to spend time with a client outside of a professional setting;
  
• Anticipating, with uncommon excitement, a certain client's appointment;
  
• Expecting that certain clients should volunteer to do favors for you (e.g., getting you a better deal from her business);
  
• Viewing a client as in a position to advance your own position and fantasizing as to how that would play out;
  
• Wishing that a client were not a client and, instead, in some other type of relationship with you (e.g., your best friend or business partner);
  
• Disclosing considerable detail about your own life to a client and expecting interest or nurturing in return;
  
• Trying to influence a client's hobbies, political or religious views, or other personal choices that have no direct therapeutic relevance;
  
• Allowing a client to take undue advantage without confronting him or her (e.g., allowing many missed appointments without calling to cancel);
  
• Relying on a client's presence or praise or boost how you feel about yourself;
  
• Giving into a client's requests and perspectives on issues from fear that he or she will otherwise leave therapy;
  
• Feeling entitled to all of the credit when a client improves, especially if a marked achievement is attained while under your care;
  
• Viewing one or more clients as among the central people in your life;
  
• Greatly resisting terminating a client despite indicators that termination would be appropriate;
  
• Believing that you are the only person who can help a particular client;
  
• Noticing that the pattern of interactions with a client is becoming increasingly irrelevant to the therapeutic goals;
  
• Feeling jealous or envious of a clients’ other close relationships;
  
• Frequently allowing the therapy session to go overtime;
  
• Instigating communications with a client in between sessions for reasons that are contrived or irrelevant to the therapy issues;
  
• Finding yourself making extra efforts to impress a client about yourself and your achievements;
  
• A feeling of dread upon sensing that a client may decide to leave therapy; and finally,
  
• Feeling uncomfortable discussing the “red flags” that pertain to you with a trusted colleague because you are concerned that the colleague would be critical of your thinking or behavior.

I am sorry this is feeling so rough right now. I think the worst thing about dealing with a T relationship where boundaries have been violated is that it didn't always feel bad, so it's hard square that in your own head. Being taken out for lunch feels good, feeling special feels good. Dealing with the conflicting feelings is horrible.

I am sorry you're going through this. I think raising the issue with your T is very brave and healthy thing to do.

Hey Blue, it's all right to be a bit rattled and not write the perfect response. You're working through things and that takes up a lot of emotional head space. I think the good thing about this forum is that people tend to be really gracious in letting that happen, letting people say stuff in their own words and also being accepting if they want to go back and change those words.

I recognise a lot of my own feelings in what you wrote. If blame doesn't work so well for you, is there another word that feels better? Responsibility perhaps?

I know that I have historically tend to hold on to a lot of the responsibility for the things that other people do because it has been too painful to look at it in any other way. Even now I sometimes don't realise that I'm doing it. It's very frustrating!

It sounds like things feel really conflicted right now, which would be a really normal response to be having. This is the really hard thing about personal development and change; you start learning new things and your perspective starts to shift but at the same time the old thought patterns and feelings don't just vanish; they pop up in times of emotional stress and argue with the new sense of perspective and it's enough to make you want to stick your head under the duvet and not come out for a while.

Sorry it's so hard right now.