I have found myself refraining from asking for things just to avoid the inevitable no. Even though T encourages me to ask, and says all things are discussable, I know that some of my unspoken questions/requests will definitely be a no response, so I just don't ask.

You are so right, the anticipation is killer.

(((Cat)))

Gosh Cat, this doesn't resonate with me at all. <insert desperately needed sarcasm emoticon>

I hate hearing NO

Sorry you're going through it, it truly does suck.

(((Cat)))
I know exactly what you mean that's why I don't ever ask for anything. I don't even know how to ask for help. If I'm upset (which I am today) I don't know who to turn to and what to ask them for because ultimately the "no" (in whichever sense it comes in) to me means you're not worth it / who do you think you are to ask that / you're not entitled to help / you're a failure for asking etc and I could go on and on, and yes it's the thought of hearing it that makes me feel rejected before I've even been rejected - double rejection if I were to ask, so I don't.

B2W

TW: SU

cat this is so timely for me.
my T spent yesterday's session hammering me about not bringing thoughts and feelings into the room that are to do with wishes and needs that cannot be fulfilled. That "no" just rips me apart internally and has left me sporadically suicidal and furious at my T for dismantling my sense of safety with him. There are just seem thoughts and feelings that cannot be shared in therapy, they need to be shared with someone who doesn't stonewall me between sessions.

Timely for me too Cat. I am not sure what is scarier, the anticipation of the no or the actual no. Since I don't often risk the actual no it's all a bit moot anyway.

I have this deep sense of being so intrinsically unlovable that even asking for something triggers deep anxiety and shame. Plus I have a skewed sense of boundaries too so what actually may well be a reasonable request seems way out there in terms of neediness. I am getting there with testing some of this out with friends but it is dead hard. Am still sort of in denial about it in therapy since a lot of young stuff gets activated and I am still working on the environment being safe enough to really go there.

Big hugs Cat. Thanks for sharing this.

I can also relate. I asked for nothing emotionally growing up. I don't like leaning on people when I'm upset and can't really ask for things from people. My T obviously knows this and has been trying to meet my needs in order to rework, as she says, my experiences/brain. It's just so hard though. It's such a balance. I have been trusting of my T more and I have indirectly or occasionally directly asked for things I think I need. But there has to be a balance...because if let completely free, my needy part would be SO needy and overwhelming. It's so scary taking that risk and asking for something. Even though my T has never said no to me, it's bound to happen, right? I mean at some point it will and I too will be devastated I think.

Hugs Cat.

this is what trying to ask feels like to me

I don't know whether the absolute No is harder than the anticipation but I know the worst thing for me is the "avoid the question so you don't hear no but you aren't sure what the answer is". I was going to start my own thread about this but if you don't mind Cat I'll piggy back here.

First I told T in an email that I wished he would remember my birthday and give me a present. First session he didn't mention the subject even though he asked another question which I asked equally indirectly. Next session I clarified I was asking him a question and it was incredibly difficult for me because I was ashamed of my longing. He acknowledged my vulnerability and bravery in asking the question and then didn't answer the question. Instead he asked my why I was ashamed (I hate wanting something particularly if I can't have it). He said I don't think you can't have it (sounds like an answer but no) and then continued to ask what was behind the longing. I say I don't know and he says you want safety and security and a feeling of permanence and I think those are possible in this relationship. I'm crying and strugging with staying present but he doesn't tell me how I can get those things. He doesn't answer the concrete question I asked.

My T has never said No to me either but he does do a great job dodging questions

I haven't seen him for a week (because there was a holiday here monday) and I don't even want to go back. Why try and bring this up again

Great thread and a lot of it resonates with me. I HAVE heard no from T... more than once and it has devastated me each time. Sometimes when I have taken that horribly scary risk to ask I was kinda sure I'd get a yes. And when I got NO it just felt like I was annihilated. I would leave so dissociated and then this searing pain would hit with with such an impact that I could barely stand it.

First no was about touch/hug in therapy. His no was so cold and dismissive I felt that I would have to quit therapy with him. I also got no recently when LTN wrote to him about playing. That was also bad. I got NO about longer sessions. I got No when I asked about his birthdate.

I'd like to ask for other things but the no's are so devastating that even talking about what I'd like or need seems insurmountable. I'm not even sure why I would consider asking as I'd rather avoid the pain of no. Yet... I've also gotten yes a few times that really meant a lot to me and I would have missed out on some lovely memories with T if I didn't ask. Like asking him if we could celebrate my college graduation with him by bringing treats and sparkling cider. I also got to experience him reading The Night Before Christmas to Little TN last year. And as for touch... he has held my hand twice during bad crisis moments. I would not want to give up those memories for anything.

Of course when he says no I feel exactly as B2W describes... like I don't deserve anything, or that I am unworthy of even having the nerve to ask for anything. So for me it's been a mixed bag. I manage to ask and try to be as direct as possible but the results vary and sometimes I have descended into the black pit upon hearing no.

The difference I think for me now is that sometimes when he says no I demand a clinical explanation as to why. I get a little more angry than scared or shamed.

This seems to be a universal fear among those of us with attachment injury/abuse history/neglect and just plain bad parenting.

TN

Thank you all so much for the replies, it's been a busy day so I haven't been able to get back until now.

((R2G)) ((AG)) ((B2W)) ((SP)) ((GE)) ((Mallard)) ((erica)) ((TN))

I can so absolutely relate to what everyone is saying here - it's like you're all saying what I want to. When I ask for things, I prepare myself for no... I like to pre-grieve I guess? As I'm learning how to tolerate no.

My Ts don't often say no, but again, I don't know what to ask for. It must be super hard to have Ts that just dodge questions (!?). Cogs, I hope someone here can give you some advice on it but if you don't get what you need don't be shy on creating a similar topic!! Please! Or having Ts who say no to what seem like simple things... like just a question. I know it's about them but it does feel like... where did you get this weirdness from?

I don't like the vulnerability and I feel ashamed for asking, and like I'm worthless and insane and I do get frustrated... sometimes I feel so convicted like if I don't get what it is I want (at work, in T, in any area of my life) I start arguing or picking apart the logistics of it all so that my feelings are contained.

But, I wanted to tell you guys about a surprising, healing, moment I had with my T today that I didn't even know I needed necessarily. I tested my T2 (adjunct T) rather purposefully because I didn't think I could see her. I've been working on a very core level of abandonment, being too much and especially how I have felt never seen or heard. The example I gave my Ts was... I feel like a baby crying at night and the parents come in just fuming talking about how annoying I am, how awful... and eventually get so frustrated they just slam the door. And that door has never been opened since, not by the people who I wish would. I'm sure this happened for real as much as it is a metaphor. When what I would have rather happened would be that even if my parents couldn't figure out what I needed... that they saw that I was hurting or mad or whatever babies cry about and just sat with me, even if they didn't understand.

So, I've felt very unsafe processing any of this (physically or verbally) with T2. This is the trauma (not being seen) that I've finally realized was triggered by a huge rupture that started one year ago. It eventually excelled to the point my T cut off e-mail contact with me, in a very cold, "door slamming" type of way. The rupture at the time was because she couldn't see me. The way she told me was 'We're not e-mailing anymore, if anything you should feel relief". Our processing from there was straight at anger and abandonment and it's been like that for... a year. I didn't think I could work on the level of neglect I'm realizing (and my desire TO be seen) with someone I was unsure about.

So, I asked her if she would entertain a conversation about bringing e-mail back in to our therapy. I knew the answer would be no, and I'm still sad about it but the extreme anger comes from HOW it was done right now, not anymore about the grief that it is gone. So this no wasn't a surprise and it came this morning.

I called my T2 back today after we talked and told her it was the best no I've ever experienced. So it was like... in my baby analogy asking my T to come back in the room and try again. It was a huge risk and I wasn't sure how it would go... I'm still unsure how it may change through the day or weeks.

She attended to me, she started out telling me in a way that she heard me, heard what I was asking, saw why. She told me an (unacceptable because it's lame - writing and bringing it in which is not how I prefer my therapy) alternative. Then, she told me she was sorry but had to decline a discussion about it. Then she brought up my feelings... she asked how I was, and I told her I was okay (even though I instantly teared when she said no), and she said I may feel later in waves maybe anger, maybe abandonment, maybe lots of things... and that we could talk about that.

Now, that sounds shitty - and it is... no sucks. But what I saw was, T sitting in the room with me, being with me, trying to see me even though I might feel... anything. The anger and abandonment have been processed and they were intense, shameful, SU inducing and just something I felt I barely survived. This said to me though... that she is going to 'get' this need stuff. She's done a lot of improvement with me over months. The relationship will never be perfect, nor not carry the scars it does... but she's being "good enough". I expected yesterday my no to be another door slam, and I was going to see that... I couldn't process this with her, had to protect myself and leave.

I saw my T this morning.. (T1, my primary T) and I told her what I'd asked and what happened... and I cried a lot because it was just such a weight off me now, I didn't have to rage at a slammed door. She pointed out to me that my 'testing' wasn't manipulative (it felt that way, because I was conscious about what I was risking) and that I was really standing up for my 'little girl'... standing up for that kid that was ditched and never seen or heard... sort of like a 'replay' she said.

It's hard. I'm still sad that that way for her to hear me is gone. But, it was a no from love that I could actually accept. T2 did text me after I left a message on her phone and said I didn't need a call back but had to thank her and tell her (before I saw T1) that I knew on my own what this meant to me. It was short, loving, and something I can hang on too... because she heard me, again.

I haven't existed in so, so long.

Sorry this is ramble, if you've made it I thank you. I'm running off for an interview (now... THAT's a no I'll be pissed about).

xo

Oh my goodness can someone please reassure me I don't sound retarded? Am I in denial here? Sorry... I'm so bloody anxious tonight.

Cat ...you do not sound retarded at all. You sound like you had a real light bulb moment. I have had a few of those. Like the time my T got really tough and stern with me after C died. He took a risk with me and drew a line because I was SO despondent and disengaged. He did so because he did not want to lose me and because he cared so very much. It felt harsh until I realized how much he cared to be able to take that risk for me, for my benefit. It was a really important moment for me.

If you are like me it takes a while sometimes for the real meaning of things to filter through but it's worth it when it does.

Hugs
TN

(((TN))) Thank you so much. I'm glad you understand and can see it as a light bulb moment. I've been so ashamed and feeling awkward about this. Like I should feel something else, but don't. I'm glad you can see your T's care... sometimes it's hard. I know I can only see her care now because I saw my rage and abandonment for 6 months first Filters... like you said!


Today I saw T2 since I called her and I'd heard back in text. She said the message was so nice to receive... and she said it sincerely. We talked about how self-protective what I did was and how it's good to talk about things that work. I feel like I took away from the experience by talking about it today because I'd lost the sentimental part. I wasn't all weepy and grateful because that part passed. It does sound like she felt intensely about it and her text back to me, just two words, really said she heard me and appreciated our exchange too.

So it was nice... I wasn't nervous to see her, I walked in and could comfortably talk to her. But now I'm all paranoid she thinks my being so thankful is dumb or not true. I've processed a bit with her that when I'm grateful I feel like I'm burdening people because it's so strongly I feel that way. She kind of explained it today as it's because it's really heartful and she said she could hear the genuineness in the message I left her....... so I was like omg am I looking like an a*hole in session?

I'm just nervous. I'm having attachment issues today... sigh. I asked my primary T not to call me today otherwise she was going to check in... and I should have asked her to. I started getting very anxious not long ago... and I'm not sure if I'd have felt anxious if I talked to her or not. Probably would still be. But I'm going to harass her voicemail tonight before sleep.

Anyhow... we didn't really talk about not having what I asked for but more like... not having the safety before, and having it now. I told her I didn't know if I could work w/ her unless we did this and I dunno... like I said and I'm repeating because I have anxiety out the ears... she said it was very very very good and self protective just like T1 said I was advocating for myself.

It doesn't sound that impressive. I think it's impressive I felt so much relief I wasn't sure HOW I would feel, if I'd meltdown... it would be based on what she said and how I authentically felt because sometimes I don't know how I feel until I jump in to the situation and see. Anyway, that's not the part they found impressive it was like... the asking at all?

Ugh who knows.