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31 replies

No Safe Place to Land (Update)

True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
I feel as if I really haven't been around much recently ... mostly because I'm in a really strange place inside me. I have replied to some of the lighter threads but I feel like I have nothing to offer anyone that is helpful lately.

I have no idea how to explain this except to say that I am missing that feeling of safety that I used to have with oldT, even if it was not real and didn't last... while it DID last I had a safe place to be, a safe place to run to when things got to be too much for me. I had oldT in my head all the time and I could go "there" when I was afraid or overwhelmed or just confused with life, work, school, family etc. When I lost oldT I lost that feeling of safety, along with the "home" he provided for me as my sanctuary. My safe place to land...

I feel so homeless and lost these days. I have no place to go to when things get bad inside my head. NewT is smart and nice but he is not my home, my place of safety. He says all the right things and makes all the right moves but I don't FEEL anything. He is not in my head as that safe place to be when I'm scared and alone. I don't have that sense of limbic resonance with him.

And all we do is talk about oldT. I can handle that. It's all I want to talk about anyway. In fact, it's more like OldT is in the therapy and not me. We analyze him not me. There is SO much, actually just about everything, that newT does not know about me. He has no idea of my history and what I tell him about oldT is all out of context because he does not know. He does not know me. And when I try to tell him something from my past, I open my mouth but the words won't form, I can't talk. And I close my mouth and just sit there and nod. I don't know what it is that stops me. Part of it may be that I don't know how to do this all over again. Really, I don't want to do this all over again. I worked SO hard in my three years of therapy with oldT. I sweated through telling him traumatic stuff. Stuff I have never told a soul and now I find myself having to do a do-over. All those years are wasted. Oh I know you all will chime in that it was not a waste but it is because I have to do this all over again with someone new. And I know that whatever I tell newT I will compare his reaction to oldT and he will lose. He is just too detached for me to feel that he even cares what I have gone through in the past. Aside from that, I feel just like a number to him. Yeah c'mon in number 47... oh trauma, abandonment, abuse, yada yada blah blah yeah I heard it all before. So can you tell me something new? And I always feel like he has to squeeze me in to see me and I can never get second appointments if I need one. How can I really sit and talk to him about major stuff in 45 minute slices 8 days apart?? When I told oldT about some major stuff we had 2 hour sessions and I would see him 2 or 3 days later again to have a check in to contain the trauma stuff.

I know there is a lot of postives about newT. And honestly, I'm not sure I could find someone of his caliber around my town at all. I have tried. But something is missing. I don't know what it is. It's that feeling that this could be a safe place. It's not home. I sit in his office like I'm visiting someone I don't really know and won't ever know. I'm nobody. He is just doing his job. I'm boring. Nothing new here. I can't talk to him about my trauma. He will just sit there and nod and it won't matter. I'm just a number. I need to SEE or FEEL some emotional reaction on his part.

I know he understands my issues on an intellectual level and we are okay when we are discussing stuff like neurobiology or the various theorists in psychology and what they say. But I'm not feeling that right brain connection when we speak. Maybe it's my fault because I have not really opened up about the past but how can I open up when I don't feel safe enough to do so. The only way in the past I have felt that safety was because I knew it affected oldT on a right brain level. His non-verbals were very strong. The empathy was really there. Yeah I know it was too much in that he was dragged into my emotional world and didn't keep one foot in his own therapist world. But when I tell newT stuff I'm thinking that he's thinking... oh yeah I remember patient number 27 had the same issues and blah blah....it's the same old same old.... You see, with oldT I WAS different to him, I WAS unique and interesting.

We had a really intense session on Monday that left me shaking and full of anxiety all week. He said he may have time for me on Thursday but he never called so I emailed him that I was very anxious and struggling and he wrote back a very lovely email, thanking me for keeping the connection. He reassured me that in THIS relationship I don't have to worry about working to keep the relationship stable while doing therapy. It was a nice reply but I did't FEEL anything. I did for about 5 minutes, that he replied and it was nice. That was it.

I'm not sure if I'm just blocking any positive feelings as a defense against being hurt again. Or maybe it's impossible for me to feel anything again or trust anyone again. Maybe I'm just misdirecting my anger at him and not oldT where it should be. I did tell him on Monday that I was not angry with him any more for not being oldT but that I was angry with oldT not being him. He thanked me for that. But I'm not feeling that way right now. Now I just feel like giving up on therapy and on myself. It's going to take me a really long time if ever to get back to where I was in therapy and by then... who cares, I'll be so old that it does not really matter. That pervasive sense of it's too late is suffocating me all over again. I thought I dealt with that with oldT and was feeling like I put it to rest... but that was before I lost 3 years of therapy and my life.

I'm not sure what I'm saying here as I'm just feeling defeated, confused, scared, alone, angry, rejected and hopeless. I guess hopeless is the strongest of those feelings. Like... why even bother? For what?

Thanks to anyone who is still reading this tome. I just had to vent somewhere.

TN
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D darockMember
TN.
wow. that sounds intense. i can relate to a lot of what you wrote.
here is my two cents. i think, while some of your oldT feelings may not be there with newT now, they may become stronger with newT and it may develop a life of its own with a new set of feelings and connections.
and if you do not have to worry as much about holding the relationship together or making it stable i think is the word you used, then maybe this can prove to be quite fruitful for you in the future.

take good care.

rock
J janedoeMember
(((((((TN))))))))

i can relate with so much that you have written. i'll respond more later if i can.

please please know, there is always hope and time is never up. i do really believe you will end up in a much better place than ever was possible with old T. i know that things really are awful right now.

so sorry you are hurting so much, thinking of you and sending many good thoughts. ~ jane
pandorapandoraMember
(((TN)))
I had noticed that you were missing from the boards so thank you for letting us know what is going on. I am so sorry that you are left feeling like this, so hopless and unable to find the point to anything. It is horrible and heartbreaking and makes me so mad at OldT i can't tell you. Mad

(Monte, your reply was wonderful, Smiler I have been feeling a bit like TN at the moment without the energy to care enough to try start up a life again and your words were insightful and helpful, thank you!)

TN i don't know how you begin to heal from what has happened to you, i don't know how you find a way to feel and care and take, not just part in, but delight in life again. Maybe it doesn't go away and it doesn't get better, i honestly don't know but i do believe that within that bleakness there are moments of hope and connection, that they are few and far between but that for now are enough.

I feel in a similar place to you at the moment in that i have been stripped bare of every possible place of safety i thought i had and it is awful not knowing where to go or caring enough about anything to actually try. But what i am finding in this grey bleakness is that i don't have to try so hard, I don't have to work so damn hard at everything all the time to keep it safe and me secure, to keep the important people happy even while i am dying inside. It is all lost, there is nothing to defend or protect and there is something about that, that is quite enticing, quite freeing really.

I feel as i have a bit of room to grow and stretch, i am not struggling so much and striving so hard and the interesting thing is that others are stepping in to the space i used to fill. So what i am saying is that the space you are in might have something to offer you, it is not what you know, not what you are familiar with and not even something that you want or care very much about but still it is what you have.

In that open space is a whole world of possibility, it is slightly beyond your will, and intellect and it is a place most of us hate and resist visiting. But somehow when you have lost everything important you begin to look differently at the world, at yourself and very directly at what is actually important. And TN, you are important, no matter what oldT did, you are still TN and to you and to everyone here on the forum you are far more important to us than oldT or newT will ever be.

Pan
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S sadlyMember
I am in a real rush now but just wanted to say something.
Limbic resonance, takes TIME to build up. It is like any thing meaningful - it doesn't happen over night.
Yes, you had it with old T - quite hugely and obviously so - and what a wrench and heart ache losing that is
but
I guess I am holding out hope that you will eventually feel it with the newT.
but whilst I say that I ache with you for the pain you are in - that it is not there.
I hear, I care, I am sorry it is so bad, TN
((((TN)))))
ladygreyladygreyMember
TN,

I think it is important to recognize that although you at one time felt that oldT was a safe place to land, ultimately this was not really the case as he ended up abusing you through a very poorly handled termination. You don't have the same connection with newT yet, but do you honestly want that same time of connection? It was ultimately destructive in your last therapeutic relationship. Is is possible that this "something that is missing" is something that was unhealthy with oldT?

I apologize if my post comes across as harsh or insensitive. I don't always say the right things,but I feel very protective over you after reading about what happened with oldT. I think you are in MUCH better hands now and from my perspective, you ARE in a safer place to land now.
L lieseMember
HI TN,

Sorry you are having such a tough time right now. Glad to see you are back. For one, I don't think it's a bad idea to take a break, if that's what you want to do. See how you feel without newT. Give everything some time and perspective. Maybe you are just not ready to forge ahead yet.

As far as the safety stuff is concerned. I've been with my T for a little over three years and I've just started to feel safe with him. Still working on the trust issues but it took a really long time to develop the relationship. I think part of it is because my T has made it so clear that this is for me. If I come to therapy, it's for me. It's not for him. I am there to learn and to grow. He has no stake in it. He may like me and care about me. It has taken me along time to warm up to that. (Still warming up.) But part of that for me is what I have needed to feel comfortable in a relationship with people. And for the most part, you're not going to get that warmth and sense of safety out there in the real world. I always thought of it as learning how to function without those things that my psyche needs.

Your whole post sounds like it could actually be a great conversation with NewT. It could actually be the conversation that shifts your relationship from the past to the present.

I'm curious about his comment that you don't have to worry about THIS relationship while you do therapy. What was he telling you? That was an interesting comment. I don't know if we're anything alike but I know I've always felt like I had to maintain every relationship, even if I didn't FEEL like it. Say, I just had a baby and didn't FEEL like talking to anyone. I would and very cheerfully so. Just thought that was interesting and wondered what he meant by that for you.


xoxoxo HUGS!!!

Liese
lamplighterlamplighterMember
Hello TN I’m sorry you are struggling like this with newT. What immediately strikes me is that you’re only seeing him for quite short sessions and that they are far apart. For me once a week is not nearly enough to even begin to establish any kind of connection in therapy - too much time in between to lose all sense of what the therapy is about - it’s like having to start therapy anew each time. And it’s very difficult to maintain a felt memory of anything important from one session to the next that would sustain me through till the next one. I honestly don’t know how people who do once weekly therapy or even with longer gaps manage it.

It also can’t be helping you that he seems so busy and has to keep trying to ‘fit’ you into his schedule, regardless of his in between session contact policy. That would definitely make me feel unimportant and wouldn’t help with trusting or feeling open towards T. Is he going to be able to give you a set timetable and more consistent sessions now that we’re into the new year? I hope so.

Can I suggest that a big part of the issue with not feeling connected to newT is quite simply that he isn’t oldT. Your situation makes me think of losing someone with whom you had a very close and loving and trusting relationship developed over a long time, and then feeling disappointed and hurt and angry that you can’t step straight into the same kind of relationship with someone new. Though I get how the lack of limbic resonance is a real stumbling block, it makes me wonder whether there wasn’t something specifically personal about oldT himself that engendered that trust and closeness you felt with him, quite apart from his capabilities as a therapist.

I also wonder when you talk with newT about oldT whether you are actually going fully into the feelings about what happened and also the grief and pain and huge sense of loss you must be experiencing about losing all the good in that relationship. From what you’ve said about your sessions it sounds to me like you are both doing a lot of intellectual talking but not necessarily helping you to express your feelings about it all. Maybe if you pushed yourself to expose more of how oldT has made you feel that might help you feel more connected to newT? Also, I would guess that any feelings you are experiencing at the moment also tap into the trauma and past experiences that you haven’t yet been able to talk to T about so that it’s not so necessary to bring up your life story and trauma experiences as some sort of separate topic. These are just guesses TN so if what I’m saying is rubbish please just ignore.

I hate to see you beating yourself up like this, I really think you need to give yourself LOTS of time to just ease into the relationship with newT - and at the same time keep bringing to him the things you are talking about here - I’m guessing you are keeping quite a lot of how you feel about your therapy with him to yourself, and maybe it would help undo some of the blockedness and coldness you’re feeling to open up to him a bit more emotionally?

Plenty of reasons to keep bothering, TN. And feeling hopeless and distant and alone and unconnected are all important feelings too - hang in there, one foot after another, one session after another, even if it does all seem hopeless right now.

Big hugs to you ((((((((( TN )))))))))

LL
starfishstarfishMember
TN

I'm sorry it's been so hard for you, thank you for explaining a bit. I think I understand that feeling of homelessness, for me it comes as a feeling of being desperately alone, even though physically I am anything but alone. I can be amongst friends and family and still feel so on my own with everything - I think it os one of the hardest things for me.

And for you at the moment it is worse because you had that feeling of security with oldT, so the contrast must feel even greater. I have total security and trust in my T, but have never really allowed her to be included in my 'safe place to land' other than in therapy time .....because I know at other times she is inaccessible and so I feel I have to manage alone. I have this wretched independent streak that is both helpful and not!

What struck me most was you saying

quote:
And all we do is talk about oldT. I can handle that. It's all I want to talk about anyway. In fact, it's more like OldT is in the therapy and not me. We analyze him not me.



So that must be really unsettling for you and in a way it must make it harder for him to understand or even get to know you and your therapy needs, as you are still stuck back with oldT. Yet the degree of hurt that he caused you, no doubt necessitates this completely. So ou are in a loop and here is no simple way out. I wonder if you could agree to have some period of time in each session that was 'oldT free', even 5 minutes whereby he could start to get to know you as you. I can't imagine retelling all my trauma stuff to someone else all over again, but he has to get to know you as you before you can begin to open up and even try. I wonder if he is detached because he fears you might compare his reaction to that of oldT?

I think just like any relationship it just takes time, you are moving from a familiar and safe relationship to a completely different one. You have had such a bad experience beforehand, that it is onlty natural that your guard will be up, it is just there to protect you from getting hurt again. FWIW you are making progress just by realising all the dynamics and frustrations, I hope you might be able to share and work through them in time. Be gentle on yourself, ((((TN))))

starfishy
frogfrogMember
Dear NT. You got so meny wise replies here, that i wawnt to echo. Also wanted to let you know i read your poster,- thanks for reaching out here- you`re doing the right thing describing how you are feeling with your newT, and i am so sorry that you feel like your just another number to him, - that alone must add alot to the feeling that you dont wanna bother "saying it all over again"- about you trauma and history. I could go on telling you, that i am sure its not right though, about how spescial you must be and so on. Not sure that`s of any help for you now, yet, i belive that feeling of being just another number, will change, because it might say more about your emotional state right now, rather than the fact. I wonder if your T knows this? How you feel like just a number? I agree with starfish, that it sounds like a good idea, maybe to talk about something else than only oldT, in order to let your T know about all the "here and now" things that goes on between the two of you in sessions, - undoubtly your feeling of being just a number, is that sort important info that may not be brought up, if all you do is analyzing oldT. I understnad, though, all the reasons that you are doing that, i imagine it must be some comfort as well, talking aobut oldT all the time.

Everything you wrote and feel now, makes "sense" TN. In that way that i understand your frustration and wanting to give up, and the question "why bother"?. Its all a very natural reaction, that you`re struggling big time with adjusting to your newT, and to the new session time, only one session pr week, must indeed be hard. I would also assume that a big part of you resist to grasp this new relationship wholheartly,and start all over again, since that means one step forwared and also therefore away from your oldT, in a way. - whom maybe a part of you still thinks/hope you can go back to. Intellectually you`re of course aware of the impossibility to do so, yet it could be a strong emotional belief deep within you here, that causes some of the resistance..I dunno, But if so, very naturally, IMP. And no wonder why you would strongly seek back to the one place where you felt home, to the one whom you had the spescial limbic resonance with. It strikes me that even after you are so very well aware of your oldT terrible wrongs and inhability, you`still seem to idealise him. That sais alot about how traumatic and chocking the whole abondonment was, IMO. Its like your head is far far ahead, yet your emotions still stuck behind with the trauma and maybe even stuck with the time before the traume your oldT caused you. Sorry if this is all just rambling and spechulative TN. I have so much sumpathize for you and your very complex and difficult situation. I want to remind you of the enormous progress that you`ve already made! Dnt forget how far you`ve already managed to go, how htings was for 4-6 months ago. The pain you`re feeling now, will also change, it wount feel like this all the time. Everything changes, as long as you keep taking one small step at time. Keep talking to your T. It will be better.
I send you all my heartfelt support and understanding TN. Hang in there!
russrussMember
Hi TN,

quote:
...we are okay when we are discussing stuff like neurobiology or the various theorists in psychology and what they say.


It's funny...if I tried talking about that stuff with my T he totally wouldn't engage me. He has never once mentioned the name of a theorist and rarely uses jargon. At first it drove me nuts, but now I kind of see what he's doing is trying to keep me focused on feelings instead of my intellect.

But, we do talk about the unconscious. Not on a theoretical level but in an in-the-moment way, and also in regard to dreams. TN, do you and newT ever talk about what might be going on with you unconsciously?

quote:
I'm not sure if I'm just blocking any positive feelings as a defense against being hurt again.


Why not? You've had your heart crapped upon repeatedly in your life. I know your conscious ego just wants to feel RIGHT NOW - believe me, you and I are in the same boat on that one - but the little you might have different ideas about that.

quote:
Or maybe it's impossible for me to feel anything again or trust anyone again.


You're gonna want to throw something at me, but I don't believe this. If it takes 10 years, you will feel and trust again because you're clearly determined to.

quote:
Maybe I'm just misdirecting my anger at him and not oldT where it should be.


I wonder what would happen if in your next session you looked at newT and said, "here's the problem, I feel NOTHING for you AT ALL, and I don't know why. What are your thoughts on that?"

Seriously, I think it's a good question to ask him.

TN, do you not have a set time that you meet with newT?

You're in my thoughts, TN. I'm struggling to feel and to find meaning in my life, too. I know it's pure hell - literally - so I hope you know we share that.

Russ
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
You have all been so caring and generous in your responses to me sharing your thoughts and giving me much to reflect on. I would like to answer all of you and I'll start here on page 2 and then work back up.

STRM... I know you care and thank you for the wishes for a good next session.

Russ... I would never throw anything at you and always appreciate your views on things. I would like to throw things at BOTH of my Ts though. I think newT discusses the intellectual stuff with me because he is trying to ease me into feeling safe there and letting me know that he understands my issues (unlike oldT) and that I should not be afraid that I know more than he does. But sometimes I'd rather do that intellectual stuff because it keeps me away from the emotional stuff. I do suspect though that he won't allow me to do this forever and will eventually call me on it. He may also be using it as a break for the intense emotional feelings that emerge due to oldT's abandonment.

Funny you should mention ten years... that is EXACTLY how long it took me to recover from my last major relationship abandonment. It took me that long to find a T and open up about what happened and how that abandonment on top of the childhood emotional abandonments caused me such horrible grief. Guess OldT thought he would just like to pile on and that makes it just so much harder to ever think of feeling or trusting again. Part of me would like to... but the amygdala is screaming at me to pay attention to the danger of it. Hard to ignore.

Russ, I may just ask him that question. Why do I have to figure everthing out alone? And in answer to your question, no I don't have a set time or day or times of the week that we meet and this is a HUGE problem for me and I'm really struggling with it. I see him tomorrow and it will have been 8 days since our last session which left me reeling and the past few days have been an emotional firestorm.

I'm afraid by the time I find some meaning in my life, my life will be over and then, who cares? I'm angry at oldT for wasting and destroying 3 years of my life and leaving my son hanging with no T and no group sessions and no therapeutic summer camp.

I hate the thought of both of us being in this hellish place. I wish you find some peace in all of this soon.

Thank you
TN
russrussMember
quote:
Originally posted by True North:
I think newT discusses the intellectual stuff with me because he is trying to ease me into feeling safe there and letting me know that he understands my issues (unlike oldT) and that I should not be afraid that I know more than he does. But sometimes I'd rather do that intellectual stuff because it keeps me away from the emotional stuff. I do suspect though that he won't allow me to do this forever and will eventually call me on it. He may also be using it as a break for the intense emotional feelings that emerge due to oldT's abandonment.


If that's the case, then good for both of you. That sounds very smart to me. Not only that, but you already know that it's also a good way to avoid the hard stuff. Wink

I'm sorry you don't have a set time to see your T. Is that something you could work out with him maybe? I'm sure he knows how important it would be for you to be able to count on that particular day (or days) at that specific time.

quote:
Originally posted by True North:
I'm afraid by the time I find some meaning in my life, my life will be over and then, who cares?


I worry about that, too. I'm 43, and often I find myself thinking, "well, maybe I'll be a healthy person by the time I'm 50, then I'll have a good 10 years left before I really start to go downhill." Yes, it's a grim way of thinking, but that's what passes for optimism for me at the moment.

I too hope we both - and ALL of us here - can find some peace and a permanent level of true wellness soon. I also hope we are all able to find some sense in our suffering. So often it seems totally alien to anything and it's just THERE for no good damn reason.

Russ
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Thanks Rock for your reply. I'm trying to get used to the idea that newT does not want me to take care of him and it's his job to keep things stable. I may someday have new feelings emerge but from where I'm sitting now, it's going to take a long time.

Oh MH, that was not wrong at all to say. There are times when I truly want to punch oldT too... just to knock some sense into him. How could he do this to the patient who probably loved him more than anyone else ever did? Thanks for your support MH. I know things are rocky for you these days and I appreciate hearing from you.

DF thank you for responding in the midst of your own freakout (glad that has now been settled and you now have the happies). Yes, there is something to explore in the need to feel special or at least different than everyone else and not just a number to him. OldT had mostly a male and teen/child client base. I think there was only one or two other women clients and I know I was the longest and the most intense client. I could just tell from his rather transparent reactions to me. I also knew I was special and that he allowed things with me (like the emailing and phone contact) that he didn't do with the others. I was also the only parent/child relationship in that my son was his patient as well. I had no real problem in keeping things separate and in knowing where the boundaries should be, but if he allowed them to shift that was on HIM. It was his boundaries to keep not mine. In any event, part of that enabled the enmeshment which I guess (what everyone has told me) did us in, BUT I went from that to just being a number and seeing someone who can't even find a weekly (or bi-weekly) spot for me in his schedule which just makes me feel even more insecure and unsafe. Yes, I do know, rationally and intellectually, that he is better trained but I just miss that sense of the warm fuzzies that I used to have.

Again, DF, I'm glad you worked things out with your T today and I hope I will have even half the success you had when I see newT tomorrow. You have given me some inspiration.

Jane, thank you for thinking of me and for the good thoughts. I am older than most on this board and I feel like my time is running out. It has been an issue with me with oldT and I did a lot of grieving over it.

MONTE!! If I have not said it before let me say now that it's really wonderful to see you back here. Your voice was missed. And thank you for telling me that story. You describe a lot of what I'm now feeling with this newT. In fact, numb indifference describes it perfectly. And if anything that even hints at warmth or connection surfaces, you can be sure I'm there to squash it. Too risky. Aside from that I feel like a 5 year old stomping her feet screaming that she wants her REAL daddy, not some new guy who is trying to pass himself off as a better father. It's encouraging to know that you eventually transferred your transference and I know how painful that must have been for you. It's not the same and it will never be the same and whether it's better for you or not it still sucks, and hurts and it's not what you want to have. This is how it must feel to be forced into an arranged marriage! Thanks again for your thoughts.

I'm going to post this now and finish up in a new post.

TN
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
I want to say that I'm really touched by the overwhelming responses to my pain. Thank you all so much...

Hi Pan... thank for noticing I was missing and for getting mad at oldT on my behalf. I'm also so very sorry that you are feeling like me in the search for the point of it all. I wouldn't want anyone to struggle with the pain I'm dealing with. If there is anyway I can help you please let me know. You are right there are those brief moments of connection... with newT but then I start to remember that was the way it was with oldT and I need to kill those feelings. I am not going to be fooled again. I just cannot trust that anything is real in therapy these days. Thank you for saying that I'm important. And you are right... that place that you speak of... I resist and fear that place and cannot go there. I used to think I could... I WAS stretching and growinig and letting myself just feel the feelings and learning to be mindful about them and then BAM I'm terminated with no real explanation so my brain tells me that doing what I was doing, that feeling like a new me was wrong, and it ended up hurting me so I'm too terrifed to go there again... even in my mind. I need to run from even acknowledging that I was a newer better me because that me was rejected so harshly she must be damn awful. That's the part that is so hard to get past. Why would a T terminate a patient who was growing and getting better? Who was a success? Thank you Pan for always being there to encourage and support me.

Sadly, I know you know all about these feelings and that you are now processing the ending with the no Tea T. I'm glad you have sweetP to help you with this and you seem to being moving along well with him. But don't you sit there and look at him knowing he could do the same things that your C did to you? How do you manage to get past that fear of the past repeating itself? The limbic resonance thing... I had an immediate connection to oldT. It was fully there at week 3 of my son's therapy.... not even MINE. I was solidly attached to him and it just got stronger as time passed and I understood more and as our relationship grew more intimate. I didn't have to fight and struggle to attach or build limbic resonance... it was just there.

LG, I'm touched that you feel protective of me after what oldT did to me. You are right in a way... it was not what was missing that was the problem it was that oldT and I were kindred spirits in that we carried the same wounds. I recognized that in him and it drew me closer to him, like a magnet. I felt safe because he knew my pain... he FELT it too and I thought.. mistakenly... that he would take more care not to further injure me because he knew how much the wound hurt. Instead, he could not face his own wounds and pushed me away and hurt me badly. I may be in a safer place to land but it sure does not feel that way to me. Part of this lies in the fact that I feel like newT does not have time for me. That I'm forcing myself into a place where I am not wanted or needed. If he does not need me how can I be sure he won't just reject me too?? I spent a large chunk of the last months of my old therapy trying to stay in a place where I was not wanted. I grew up feeling not wanted. NewT not being able to find a spot for me that is my own regular time spot evokes in me those feelings of not being wanted. That I'm too much trouble and just not worth it. This is what I need to talk to him about.

Liese, thanks for your thoughts. It took me almost 3 years to feel safe with oldT and I had JUST told him that... 2 months before he started talking about referring me I had told him I reached a point where I was not worried that he would ask me to leave and that I trusted him not to hurt me because he had a lot of power to do so. I was so stupidly trusting and he did just that. He almost killed me. Hard to just hop into a new relationship and trust... and three years is a lot of time to make up at my age. And that will just get me back to where I left off. As for his comment... he knows how hard I had to work with oldT to kee the relationship on track because oldT was not doing his job and I was being T and patient at the same time. NewT wants me to know that HE is the T and I'm the patient and I don't worry about being both in this new relationship.

TN
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
LL:


quote:
Can I suggest that a big part of the issue with not feeling connected to newT is quite simply that he isn’t oldT. Your situation makes me think of losing someone with whom you had a very close and loving and trusting relationship developed over a long time, and then feeling disappointed and hurt and angry that you can’t step straight into the same kind of relationship with someone new. Though I get how the lack of limbic resonance is a real stumbling block, it makes me wonder whether there wasn’t something specifically personal about oldT himself that engendered that trust and closeness you felt with him, quite apart from his capabilities as a therapist.


LL!!! How wonderful to see you back posting. Thank you for responding to this. Yes, you are correct. OldT and I could have been best friends in another situation. We had SO much in common. We were very much alike and as I mentioned in a post above, I believe we also had the same attachment wounds and because he never dealt with his own pain and injuries he further harmed me. He belongs in therapy.

And I know I will never have this same kind of relationship with newT because he is detached and he just would never allow it to happen. Yes, okay, that is probably a good thing because he keeps firmer boundaries, and he is more aware of my injury from oldT, and because I'm just a number (a very new number) that he is not invested in (at least for now) and it's just basically that he is a different person. I'm also not physically attracted to him at all, even though he is probably in a classical sense the more pleasant looking one. There was a vulnerability about oldT that drew me in and captured my heart. It made me want to tell him my stuff. I so wanted to share everything in my past with him. I wanted our relationship to be successful and for him to remember me with fondness not hate and disgust and horror. It hurts that someone who you care about so much can abhor you so much. We all want to be loved and respected... especially by our Ts. This just hurts and humiliates me.

We do talk about my feelings... newT wants me to be angry at oldT but I cannot. I'm mostly angry at myself for screwing up my therapy and newT does not want me to blame myself and has been working to get me to see it was not my fault it was his problems. I can only be angry with me and even with newT not oldT. The whole do-over scenario is so hard and newT will lose each comparison because I want him to.

Thanks for the hugs. I look forward to hearing how your new therapy is going. Hopefully better than mine is. I'm so glad you finally found your T.

Hi Starfishy... yeah I feel alone and scared. I spent most of this afternoon in the bathroom at work crying. I'm feeling panicked about the negative transference I'm feeling towards newT when I had been feeling a spark of warmth a few weeks ago. I think I'm feeling abandoned by him because he has not been able to see me for 8 days and that is too long for me to go T'less. I feel like it's just to risky to settle in to a new relatonship with him because I cannot even get a regular appointment. That is the frame of therapy and if I don't even have that to depend on how can I trust anything else? As for having some time w/no oldT... I have tried. I open my mouth and try and nothing happens. I say to him... I need to tell you about this or that so you can understand where this is coming from but I never tell him because it's too damn scary. It's double scary now. Why should I believe he won't abandon me? OldT promised me over and over that he would be there for me and that he would never give up on me, that he would never reject me, that I would decide when to end the therapy, that I could trust him and when I finally did he threw me away, he traumatized me and retraumatized me and this is what I'm left with. No sense of a cohesive self. I'm like a shatttered mirror. I cannot see my reflection there any longer. Just lots of pieces of glass.

Thank you for saying you see progress. And for the hugs. I always need hugs.

Froggy, you are correct in that my emotional state is not allowing me to feel or understand anything rational or intellectual. I have tried to talk to him about our here and now relationship. I told him to close the blinds and also that his anger scares me to death. He seemed to take that very well and was very understanding. But my past, those very scary things that over time I managed to tell oldT, I just don't what to look at them again and have a repeat. I'm too scared that his reaction will be worse and that he will remain cold and detached and scary and I won't get any warm fuzzies and I'll feel like some weird speciman that he looks at like I'm a big ugly defective insect. Then he will understand why oldT rejected me. So I just can't go there.

Froggy you are very wise and make alot of sense in what you say about my intellect being way ahead of my emotions and that I still have very strong feelings for oldT despite the damage he did. And what does that say about how pathetic I am that I could love someone who hurt me so badly? I'm just crazy. And yes, my emotions try to go back to therapy way before the rupture and termination. To how good is was when it was good. To how healing it felt and how good I felt that I could manage my life and do new things and I felt like I was a new person who had finally learned to trust and who had that safe place and then... to lose it all so quickly and with such hatefulness on his part... I am still in shock I think. And I'm still confused because I really don't know why it happened. I told newT we can guess and speculate but we will never know what happened unless oldT tells us. You are right, things are a bit different now and maybe that is good or progress or maybe it's just different. A new phase of grief I need to go through. I am still grieving. I feel like there is this huge hole inside of me where T used to be and now it's all empty and hollow and it hurts and I dont' know how to fill it up or with what. I hate feeling like this.

Draggers... thanks for posting. My little girl is screaming that she wants to go home but she cannot. The door is locked. So she sits outside and cries and watches all the other kids who now are in her home but she is not welcome there. She is left to wander homeless looking for a safe place to rest. Thanks for your hugs. I hope you are doing better these days. Hugs back to you.

TN
pandorapandoraMember
(((TN)))
In your posts, you have described so much of what you are feeling so clearly, and the damage that oldT has done to you is immense. That feeling of being looked at as if you are a big ugly defective insect captured it perfectly and it is a real bind to be in.

I went through a phase of writing short stories in therapy and wrote one called the Lonely Cockroach about how it felt being that disgusting and repulsive to everyone else. The reason i am telling you this is firstly so that you know you are not alone in feeling like this and secondly because i found that facing the horror of how i felt about myself in some way helped me a lot.

It was the trying to behave how i thought i should so i didn't get rejected, so that no one knew how bad i was, that was utterly exhausting and draining me. And somehow when i actually faced it and said out loud i feel repulsive, something shifted and it eased a bit. There is no miracle cure for a broken heart and shattered trust but you can extend a hand of friendship to yourself. Maybe by accepting the repulsive part of me, by not rejecting myself i was able to carry on and keep breathing and start living again. And i am completely and utterly convinced that you can to. Smiler

TN, you are not repulsive in any way, and you would probably (fingers crossed here) I hope say the same to me. But no words can touch those dark places inside us or make it feel any better.

But i want you to know, that i dont care even if you turn out to be mostly repulsive insect, that you are still welcome in my life. I like you, i admire your honesty, I respect your insight into yourself and your tenacity in hanging in when it must be the hardest thing in the world to do.You are an incredible woman and you will get through this, insects have a way of surviving almost anything, as i have learnt there is something good to be found in the muck.


Love Pan
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Oh Pan I love your posts to me. I read them many times and they always make me feel better. Thank you for sharing the insect story. As we both know, cockroaches have been here through history, even if they are ugly LOL Eeker

I find it hard to be nice to me because even if I nod and agree with newT that it's not my fault and that oldT had his own issues, down deep inside I know it was me and my fault and even if this HAD to end it could have ended more peacefully. But I didn't drive away that day and the cops came. I didn't take his deal to go find a new T but leave my son with him. I refused to go until he threw BOTH of us out and now my son lost so much too. I have to bear that burden of what I cost him by being so selfish to want to keep my oldT for me. I tried to stay where I was not wanted and that was wrong on my part. So it's really hard to like myself these days. But I do appreciate that you like me and think so many good things about me. Maybe some day I'll be able to take that in again. Maybe one day I can accept that bad part of me and learn to deal with it.

In any case, I'm grateful for this forum and all my wonderful supportive friends here. I don't know where I would be without all of you.

Pan... I hope things ease up for you as well. I appreciate your support in the midst of your own sadness. Thank you.

TN
pandorapandoraMember
quote:
Maybe one day I can accept that bad part of me and learn to deal with it.


You know TN, if oldT knocked on your door right now and said to you, TN, i am sorry, i don't know what got into me, i handled that so badly and i have really messed up.' How would you respond to him? I have no doubt that you would hear oldT out and that your heart would go out to him in the face of his genuine remorse. All you have to do is the same for yourself, just give yourself the same chance.

You do have to bear the burden of having handled some of this wrong, because it is true what you said, maybe if you had done something differently it would have turned out differently. But you didn't and it didn't. It is not about blame and guilt, it is about taking repsonsibility and that is the healthiest thing you can ever do. 'Fault' is when you try take all the blame, but taking responsibilty is about acceptance, it is facing your own weakness squarely because you are strong enough to bear it and you know that it is not all there is to you.

All that is missing is that tiny bit of balance, yes i messed up here, but i did this well there. Just have a look at your own post, there is the balance right there at the end, you remember me and that i am not doing so well and show kindness and care in the midst of your own pain.

This is how you accept the bad parts TN, it is from messing up so badly that you don't know quite how to live with yourself. This is how you figure it out, it is now that you choose which parts of you to cultivate and which to leave behind because you have outgrown them. These mess ups are so very precious because they give us the opportunity to feel and grow and change and see what we couldn't before.

You have no idea how well you are really doing, your posts are changing, your voice is a little clearer, you are speaking more honestly and openly than you have ever done before, and it is your pain that is doing it. You are already much further along than you realise and that is okay because you have me here to remind you. Big Grin
Pan
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
You have no idea how well you are really doing, your posts are changing, your voice is a little clearer, you are speaking more honestly and openly than you have ever done before, and it is your pain that is doing it. You are already much further along than you realise and that is okay because you have me here to remind you.


Pan you have no idea how grateful and appreciative that I have you around to remind me of stuff!

I'm super busy right now but wanted to say that I saw newT and he was just awesome and things went well and I'll post an update when I get a free moment...

Thanks,
TN
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
I just wanted to update everyone on my session with newT today. It went really well and I was able to find the courage to voice some of my fears and concerns to him.

First when I walked in he looked at me and said... so can you come in on Thursday at 3:30? I was like , huh? Have you been reading my posts? Eeker I was pretty surprised. So I said okay and then he said let's save a few minutes at the end of the session to make some appointments going out a few weeks. I was quite agreeable to that.

We talked about a lot of things and I told him that he email was wonderful but it only held me for about a day and a half and he smiled and said... "so why didn't you send another one". I was aghast and said "I couldn't do that. I already sent one and I would not want to bother you again" So he told me that it was never a bother and that my needs are very normal and not excessive at all. That my emails are appropriate and well written and it is well worth it for him to take a few minutes to help me bridge the time for a few days then he is happy to do it. That made me feel good.

Then I said to him... it's been 8 days. I can't do 8 days, it's too hard right now. And then I told him how I felt. That there was no place for me there and how I felt that I was pushing my way in and was not wanted. I let it all out... telling him that it was really hard for me to feel secure when I didn't have a steady appointment and never knew when I would see him again. It made me feel unsafe and was interferring with my trying to develop an attachment to him.

He totally understood and kept telling me that he was proud of me for bringing this up and talking to him about it. That it was important and he was sorry that I was upset but it is not true. That he DOES want to work with me. That he knew my story before he met me and that even though his schedule was crowded he truly wanted to see me and help me and he knew eventually that he would be able to give me a spot as another client was pretty much ready to leave. He said he hated what was done to me and he understood how hurt and harmed I was. He was SO open and accepting and actually happy that we were talking about this that I was able to go on and bring up other stuff.

I told him that I was missing the "warm fuzzies" I got from oldT and he admitted he was not a warm fuzzy kind of guy but he is honest and caring and he wants to see me heal. And he thinks that the warmth that I felt from oldT may actually have come more from the warm fuzzy dog in the office and the warmth that I brought there myself. he also said he thinks a lot of oldT's reactions were not genuine or genuinely about me it was more about him and how he felt in a given situation. Something to think over.

Anyway, I then brought up how it upset me that he says I'm easy. To me that means I'm easy to ignore, easy to abuse, easy to mistreat. He said no not at all... he means easy in that I don't ask him for much, that it's very easy for him to meet my needs. They are normal and appropriate for my history (what he knows of it).

He added that he is in awe of what I did in my last therapy. That I was patient and therapist at the same time. That he would never have been able to do that as a T in training. Maybe now but not even then as a doctoral trainee. he is just amazed. We talked about GTOL he is reading now. We talked about how hard I always work in therapy and that he does not terminate patients even if they lose their job and cannot pay him.

I brought up that I always worried he would cancel me like oldT used to do at times. He said he only cancels if sick or another client in crisis. He used to have do cancel sometimes for court appearences when he did more forensic work but he does much less of that now.

Then we made a bunch of appointment and in a week or two I will have a one regular appointment a week with the option of a second session as we can fit it in. He was SO nice about it and I see him again on Thursday! I am feeling SO much better after today. I think I missed him Eeker Eeker OMG did I say that? (looking around). What I'm grappling with now is a sense of growing connection which I'm finding somewhat frightening. The whole trust issue rears it's ugly head once more.

I told him I'm doubly scared of getting into things these days. He understands and just tells me that his consistency and steadiness and the process will win out over time and I will come to trust him and I will heal.

That's about it. Thanks to all for the support and encouragement.

TN
pandorapandoraMember


TN, this post brought tears to my eyes, not of sadness but of hope and happiness. You are so going to be okay, and i am already rubbing my hands gleefully because of all the "I TOLD YOU SO" mileage i am going to get out of this.

This is a milestone TN and your T is your light in the darkness and you are in such good hands with him. The first step to healing is often the most difficult and that has been taken and oh, i am just so happy right now i can't tell you!

Pan
lamplighterlamplighterMember
Wow TN that is fantastic - I am really really PLEASED for you, you so deserve some good in your life after all the crap and pain with oldT and it's really heartlifting to read this post. Thanks so much for telling us about it, shows not only what a great T newT is, but what a great client YOU are. OldT didn't deserve you!!!!!!!!!

I'm so happy for you (((((((((((( TN )))))))))))))

LL
I incognitoMember
I'm so happy for you TN. I'm impressed that you could express so much of how you felt even though it was dangerous (because I think whenever you discuss things about the relationship feels dangerous). I think it proves that the old TN wasn't destroyed by old T actions it just sent her into hiding because it seems like she/you have engaged fully with new T.

I glad you get to see him on Thursday.
halshalsMember
Extremely happy for you and I agree, I think you are in awesome hands and if you let yourself, I think you will come to love newT for what he is and what he can do for you, not what he has come to replace. Take risks and experience a new therapy relationship! And I too had a friend say to me once....I don't think you are as sick as you think you are. That is how I feel about you TN...you are amazing! Hals
S sadlyMember
So happy to read your latest post TN - it sounds like your new T is really really hearing and knowing you and caring about you deeply. I spent much of today thinking about you and wondering what I could say that would be of help. and not really getting anywhere with it. BEfore I read your latest post about this spot on brilliant session with kind and caring new T, I was going to say:

I don't know why limbic resonance is such an unpredictable thing. I felt it after three sessions with my first T, 22 years ago, but had discarded at least six t's before I felt okay with her. I then felt it with a male T whom I worked with for 9 months and then when I moved I went through 12 t's before I found one that I got on with like that and worked with him for 2 and half years, but in the last six months it was abusive so - so much for limbic resonance with him.

with ex C, I did not really get on with her ' as a person, but it didn't matter as I was just needing counselling about bullying at work. It was only when she was seen as a caring 'parent' figure that the small child stuff kicked in and I got severely attached to her. So it was not there for the first 10 months.

With Ice Queen (sorry - no tea ' T) I did not feel any connection at all, even though she was very skilled. So I do not miss her at all.

With sweetP, I felt it from the second session and actually liked him from the first session. We definately have limbic resonance now, as I miss him terribly and find the 7 day gap excruciating. I had to ask him to ring me yesterday - which thank god he did and that was such a help.

I still have not read TGTL so am way behind in understanding all this, but I wonder if we project or transference onto them the parent figure that we need and if they just cannot be easily transferred onto, (not the right type or not the right age, or don't look quite right etc) it takes longer and sometimes just does not happen.

I also know from my own experience, that CARE and KINDNESS are crucial to that link being made.

I think you HAVE made that link as you MISS him already. You email him.He matters to you - and you matter to him.

I also want to say - and I will be able to hear your cheer all the way across the Atlantic, that I don't miss ex C ANYMORE. (long may it last) and why? Because sweetP is not only filling her space but he is BETTER!!!!!!!!!

but she was exceptionally bad.

I feel RELIEF to be away from her. I just was being torn apart by her.

much love and hugs to you, you are doing such wonderful work and you are clearly connecting well with new T even though you fall back into doubt and still hurt so much from what old T did.

Don't know if any of that helps, but I am doing my best, talking only from my own experience, which of course in MY experience and not yours, but hey, that is all I have to talk from.
russrussMember
TN,

I'm so glad you had such a great session and were able to connect with your T that way. He sounds really great to me. I bet as soon as you're able to nail down a structured time to meet that things will really take off for you. This T seems fearless to me, in addition to being very confident, supportive and compassionate. Maybe he's not as warm and fuzzie as oldT, but I wonder if having a T who clearly has real inner strength is just as important. To me, newT sounds like he can offer you a much more solid structure which to internalize than oldT. His strength can help you find your own.

Russ
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Only worked a half day today due to weather and I'm feeling sorta relaxed and really looking forward to seeing newT again tomorrow. Our last session left me with a good feeling, like something big was accomplished... yes I told him about how I needed a regular session but it was more like a spark of connection. I can now almost remember what he looks like. I've been seeing him for 3 and half months now and I have the hardest time remembering his face but it's coming more clearly into focus these days. Maybe I was mentally blocking it before? I am not sure. Maybe it was the light behind him making it hard to see him. I now have his permission to close the blinds when I get there (if he forgets) and it makes the eye contact a bit easier.

Pandy... loved your emo's. They look so darn happy. He IS my light in the darkness and the light is burning a bit brighter now.

LL...oh I loved that you said oldT didn't deserve me! What a lovely thought. I can almost think... ALMOST... that he is much worse off than I am because of what HE lost.

Draggers... thanks. I am pleased that you are pleased! Big Grin

incognito... thank you for posting in the midst of your own struggles with T. It was hard and it did feel dangerous. I sat there all session with my fists clenched in anxiety but I thought that if I can't tell him these things then how can I tell him the really yucky stuff and it would be better to know this now than in a year. I guess in a way I was testing him. He passed with high marks. (And he absolutely knows that I am testing him and watching every move he makes for some sign I need to run).

Hals!... so good to see you. Hope you are okay. I am trying to see newT not as the replacement for oldT but more as a new person in my life that I can get to know and to allow to know me too. Maybe this can be okay when I settle in. He really has not made any false steps and it's not easy trying to work with someone injured badly in therapy. But he is sure of himself and experienced enough to trust that it will be okay. Some of his belief is catchy. Thanks for saying I'm amazing. It means a lot to me to hear.

Sadly,... thanks for being happy for me. It was generous of you to share you experiences with limbic resonance and with all your past Ts/Cs/Ps. It's a really quirky thing and I cannot explain why it sometimes happens and why it does not. In the case of my newT I think there is potential but due to what happened with oldT I think I was grieving too deeply to really connect with anyone. Maybe now that the grief is subsiding enough for me to see straight again, I can work on an attachment to newT... who welcomes it and is not afraid of it at all. I'm glad you are over your C and that your own grief seems to have lessened over what took place w/her (yes I am cheering for that). I'm a thrilled that sweetP is working out so well for you and that noTea T did not injure you with her ending. And I agree that care and kindness are truly important in the therapeutic relationship and even though newT says he does not do the warm fuzzies.... he does care and he is kind so that is good. I wish you the best w/ your P.

Russ ... you bring up some really important points. I am beginning to recognize some really good qualities in newT that will make a difference. You mention his strength. I like that he is strong (not wishy washy at all... shoots from the hip LOL) because his strength does not make me afraid to lean on him when I need to and perhaps I can take from his strength in finding my own. He is also fearless and compassionate and I like that mix in him. And despite what he says he does have some warm fuzzies as he patted my shoulder on my way out last time.

Hey Froggy... wow we rock! You rock too. And yes stability will be nice. It's been missing for a long time in my life and I think it will help to move the therapy to new places.

Hi MH... so far so good. He is doing all the right things. I can finally look a bit forward with hope. That is what was missing for the longest time... hope. You can't do much w/o that. I'll keep you posted and thank you.

TN
starfishstarfishMember
TN

So pleased to hear the ever steady, unfased reaction from newT. He sounds a really solid guy and is the very things yoou need at the moment - reliable and constant. The deeper connecting stuff will come in time, but after your dreadful disruption with your oldT, the greatest gift he has for you right now is consistency and a listening ear.

I am really pleased Smiler

starfish

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