MH,

Thanks for the topic! If you don’t mind I’m going to respond in kind of a roundabout way. Your “Not Good Enough” title made me think of something that came up in session yesterday that could be called “Too Much”. Maybe it is the flip side of the same insecurity coin?

If self-help could help me, I wouldn't need therapy. I am the "Queen" of self-help. That section of the bookstore always has had a special pull on me. But my self-help wasn't helping. I needed something that went deeper than anything like praise or daily affirmations. I definitely didn't want false fronts or masks or, God forbid, compliments. Eeeww. From what I've read here and elsewhere, deeper change happens through attachments. Meaning that I was going to have to let myself get attached to my T and then let things get messy. So I did. It got really messy - derailed, in fact - but then I hooked up with my current T and continued the therapy.

What follows is a description of some stuff we talked about yesterday. I think it illustrates how self-confidence and self-esteem are being built within me on that "deeper" level, not through compliments, but through attachments. Starting with my current T, working down through what happened with my former T, and down further still to the root issues from my childhood. Sorry it got really long, but, well...I really love to write and describe every little detail, I guess. I hope some of it is helpful to someone.

We were reading through some journaling I’d done when I was seeing my former T. It was describing how I was so afraid that he was just putting up with me, how it seemed he was afraid of me and wanted to get rid of me. I talked about how hard I tried to be “good” and not need anything. I thought all the reading and work I did would make his job easier. I only left one voice mail, never asked to email, and only sent the one note. Most of the sessions he talked much more than I did. And yet, I always had the feeling that he thought I was too needy. He never said it explicitly, but I constantly felt that he wanted me to “back off”. I was “too much”. I was hoping that this was just transference from my childhood, where I was “too much” and learned to “be good” and not need anything. But ever since the therapy with him ended, I’ve been wrestling with trying to figure out how I could have been any less needy without leaving altogether.

My T offered the explanation that many men feel intimidated when women open up their hearts to them. And I opened mine up really really fast, partly because I’d been looking for someone to listen for almost a year by then, and partly because I had everything written down already and all we had to do was read it. I think it was a bit of a shock to both of us. She reminded me that, in general, men are “wired” to be “fixers”. Then she suggested that maybe he got overwhelmed because he was afraid that he might fail to “fix” me.

If my T is right about my former T’s fear, then it is ironic, because what I really needed him to do was so much easier than what he thought he had to do. What I wanted him to “do” was really more like NOT doing. I just really, really, REALLY did not want him to abandon me. When he did, it felt so much like a confirmation that I really must be “too much”.

We had started out laughing about men wanting to be “fixers”, but then I suddenly started to sob. Really cry hard. I got to tell her how much I liked him, the feelings and ideas he inspired in me, how I came alive when I’d been talking to him, and how I just wanted him to be there and contain me, to see me, to reassure me that my feelings were understandable and good and right even though they could never be acted upon. And, to be with me through the grief that they could never be acted on. I wanted him to hear me, see me, and eventually, gently give my feelings back to me. I thought I was going to learn how to keep that spark alive WITHOUT him being there. I was so disappointed that it didn’t work out that way, because it is my favorite part of me, when it's there. It hurt so much to be abandoned instead.

She contained me and heard me while I cried. I’ve never had anyone do this before and it felt like such a RELIEF not to be judged or dismissed. She’s not afraid of my feelings, either. She encourages me to feel them, to get them out there! It feels WONDERFUL to have this safety. The feelings don’t feel wonderful, of course, but the release is priceless. Funny how denying and stuffing feelings just makes them worse, but acknowledging them and expressing them in freedom actually makes them go away! It’s kind of a paradox.

This experience with my T yesterday was very healing and reassured me that maybe, just maybe, I am not, in fact, “too much”. Maybe my former T just became afraid because he didn’t know how to help. In feeling that I was “too much” I also felt that I was not “good enough” to be his patient. But both insecurities seemed to get some healing yesterday. Not through false flattery or praise, like you said, MH – but through connection, and insight and understanding with an attuned T.

Of course all of this has deeper roots in my childhood and we're getting there. One thing I would still like to understand is why I have this fear with men and not with women. I am not afraid that my current T secretly doesn’t like me, or wants to get rid of me, or thinks of me with contempt. If I had that feeling I’d be gone in a heartbeat – there is no way I’d stick around and hope to win her approval the way I did with my former T. Which is interesting because I’m much more demanding of her than I was of my former T. I see her every week and I talk a LOT. She never makes the therapy about her needs and, beyond making sure I’m respecting the time and payment boundaries, I’m not worrying about her needs at all.

So why do I do this with men?

My T likes to describe what she sees in my face when I’m expressing myself. She has mentioned several times that I look and sound like a little girl hoping, waiting, looking for her father. I know that I’ve LONGED for a certain kind of father for many years, but I hardly ever let myself think about that because it’s been WAY too painful, so I really agree that she’s on to something there. So we are exploring this in the therapy. I’m not sure where it’s going but it definitely feels like things are connecting and making a whole lot more sense already.

When my thoughts are a little more together about it I’d like to start a thread about fathers and what we need from them.

Thanks for listening
SG

Has your T labeled you as "resisting" before?

I feel/felt much the same way you describe. It feels like a battle of attrition. I keep saying "I'm not good enough" in the 100 different ways I concoct and he reassures me that I am good enough each and every time. Sometimes he even makes me say it. His patience seems to have no end. (At least for the 2.5 years I've been seeing him so far ...)

I think that one of the things that helped me is voicing these thoughts, even though I know they are illogical, even though I know I'm going to get contradicted. Somehow, having my T go ahead and contradict me on these helps.

I'd suggest that you tell your T what you think she thinks, see if she can help convince you what you are having trouble convincing yourself of.

Your post means a lot to me SG. Thank you for taking the time to share your feelings.

I was so convinced that my T wished I would go ahead and suicide so he wouldn't have to see me anymore or put up with me.

SG, thank you for the time you took to respond to this topic. Your post has given me much more to consider.

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
From what I've read here and elsewhere, deeper change happens through attachments. Meaning that I was going to have to let myself get attached to my T and then let things get messy. So I did. It got really messy - derailed, in fact - but then I hooked up with my current T and continued the therapy.

I am terrified that this will happen to me. I do like my T (when I am not secretly furious with her ) but I still hold back. I know that the more attached I get, the more power she will have to hurt me. Completely trusting her is like giving up my weapons and marching defenseless headlong into battle - stupid move.

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
We were reading through some journaling I’d done when I was seeing my former T. It was describing how I was so afraid that he was just putting up with me, how it seemed he was afraid of me and wanted to get rid of me. I talked about how hard I tried to be “good” and not need anything. I thought all the reading and work I did would make his job easier. I only left one voice mail, never asked to email, and only sent the one note. Most of the sessions he talked much more than I did. And yet, I always had the feeling that he thought I was too needy. He never said it explicitly, but I constantly felt that he wanted me to “back off”. I was “too much”. I was hoping that this was just transference from my childhood, where I was “too much” and learned to “be good” and not need anything. But ever since the therapy with him ended, I’ve been wrestling with trying to figure out how I could have been any less needy without leaving altogether.

I think this does fit in with the "not good enough" feeling, SG, and I have had these same thoughts about my relationship with my T. The thing that is different is that my T is female. I am still waiting for the shoe to drop with my T, I guess. I think I also have these "too much" thoughts in some of my relationships outside of therapy. Did/do you see that in yourself as well? Maybe it is only transference for me, but how can you tell, because in your case that wasn't all of it. I am amazed you summoned the courage to try it again with a different T.

I am so glad to read of your healing experience and I hope you have more of them. There is more I would like to write because your post really speaks to me right now, but I can't seem to get the words out. Thank you for sharing.

quote:

Originally posted by Z:
Has your T labeled you as "resisting" before?

No, Heather, she hasn't said that in so many words. I am maybe just paranoid that she is thinking it. I read into little things, like if she sighs, or if her demeanor seems to abruptly change. I am also conscious of the fact that she has to keep repeating herself to reassure me, and it must get old for her. I'm not used to the idea that a person could actually be that patient with me. It helps to read of your experience and know that there actually are T's out there who ARE patient, in case my T turns out not to be...

quote:

Originally posted by Halo:
I was so convinced that my T wished I would go ahead and suicide so he wouldn't have to see me anymore or put up with me.

Halo, this is something I have worried about in the back of my mind. My way to deal with it has been to not talk to my T very much about my S feelings. But I recognize there is something wrong with not being able to address that with your T! I just don't know if I can handle the rejection. I get angry at myself for allowing my T to have so much influence over me, because I don't want to NEED her. There really is a power imbalance in all of this therapy mess we're in.

I would add: "too good to be truth". It's like I don't quite believe that I am really "allowed" to love my T, that's it's ok for me to be there and have that kind of feelings. And that he really doesn't mind it? (Accept is too big word)

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
My T offered the explanation that many men feel intimidated when women open up their hearts to them. And I opened mine up really really fast, partly because I’d been looking for someone to listen for almost a year by then, and partly because I had everything written down already and all we had to do was read it. I think it was a bit of a shock to both of us. She reminded me that, in general, men are “wired” to be “fixers”. Then she suggested that maybe he got overwhelmed because he was afraid that he might fail to “fix” me.
SG

Why do they feel intimidated? That just makes is scary to try to trust another man. That is so sad. It's like there is almost no hope for being loved and understood by a man, cause they are just not capable.

Part about "fixers" reminds me that my T once came up with: "to think what are we going/I would like to achieve during the next 3 months". That kind of scared me, that he wants to "get me fixed" and detached from himself... I didn't want to achieve anything. Just stay there with him..

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
Of course all of this has deeper roots in my childhood and we're getting there. One thing I would still like to understand is why I have this fear with men and not with women. I am not afraid that my current T secretly doesn’t like me, or wants to get rid of me, or thinks of me with contempt. If I had that feeling I’d be gone in a heartbeat – there is no way I’d stick around and hope to win her approval the way I did with my former T. Which is interesting because I’m much more demanding of her than I was of my former T. I see her every week and I talk a LOT. She never makes the therapy about her needs and, beyond making sure I’m respecting the time and payment boundaries, I’m not worrying about her needs at all.

So why do I do this with men?

My T likes to describe what she sees in my face when I’m expressing myself. She has mentioned several times that I look and sound like a little girl hoping, waiting, looking for her father. I know that I’ve LONGED for a certain kind of father for many years, but I hardly ever let myself think about that because it’s been WAY too painful, so I really agree that she’s on to something there. So we are exploring this in the therapy. I’m not sure where it’s going but it definitely feels like things are connecting and making a whole lot more sense already.

When my thoughts are a little more together about it I’d like to start a thread about fathers and what we need from them.
SG

I just want to rant here. Why? Why? Why? Why? What is wrong with men that they can't be good fathers? Most of my friends (close friends) have something wrong with the father. WHY?? I want to scream: what the f... is wrong with men!!
I do have also big issues with men. My T is a man, and I love him absolutely. But I think if it was a woman I would be able to trust more and open up to her sooner. I think I would be less afraid in general. It probably wouldn't be so freightening to love her. But then this is something to get streight through the therapy isn't it?
Does it actually matter if therapist is male of female? Would all the feelings that come up be more or less the same? Or would different things get awakened?

Amazon,

Oh, I think I opened a can of worms here...I don’t have time to respond thoroughly right now but I just wanted to say, I’m sorry that what I said seems to have upset you so much. The way I took it, my T was just offering a possible explanation for what happened with my T that recognizes some basic differences in the way men and women “generally” approach things. These are differences I’ve seen these differences in my marriage, too, and one approach is not better than the other, just different. But by no means does this necessarily apply to every situation.

And maybe we shouldn’t even have been speculating, but I will tell you, it is so hard to be left without any kind of explanation from his side. This possibility seemed to release us both from blame. As far as feeling intimidated, my understanding is that a guy feels that way when he truly wants to help. He wouldn't be afraid of failing to help, if he didn't truly want to help. This is something my husband and I have talked about a couple of times. I found it comforting because it means he really meant well, he really wanted to help.

The main reason I even described this part of the conversation is because we started out laughing at the idea of my heart being “too much” and then it suddenly triggered me and I started to cry. So I thought it was important to explore the idea of feeling like “too much” regardless of whether my former T really felt that way.

I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that there are insurmountable obstacles to working with male T’s. Not at all. Just that recognizing basic differences in how men and women approach things can help alleviate some painful misinterpretations or misunderstandings.

And I see my problem in relating to men as just that, MY problem. Not theirs. Above all, I don’t want this to sound like I’m bashing men. Because I’m not. I just don't understand them very well because I spent most of my life isolating from them in fear. Actually I very much want to understand them better and learn how to relate to them better so that some day, one day, maybe, just maybe, I will be able to relate better to the man I married!

Gotta go now but I will write more later…
SG

quote:

Does it actually matter if therapist is male of female? Would all the feelings that come up be more or less the same? Or would different things get awakened?

There must be excellent male T's/P's out there somewhere, and ideally either gender should be able to guide clients in overcoming their issues, but... I also believe that how we relate to a particular gender can get in the way or prolong the process. There are reasons, both conscious and unconscious, why I sought out a female T. One of those reasons is probably "not being good enough" for my critical father. Another reason was trust -- trusting her is hard enough without having to overcome my gender bias against men. I also know I'd probably end up experiencing the erotic transference stuff eventually, and I didn't want to deal with that.

Halo,

I'm sorry what I said reminded you of your T. Whenever I think of how badly he treated you, my heart just hurts for you, and I feel angry at him. You were (and are) really striving for honesty and healing, and I hope so much that this next T can create a strong and safe place for you to do that. I'm glad you're still sharing here - I get so much inspiration from your posts!

MH,

I'm glad you didn't mind my post. Believe it or not I'm usually a quiet person, but I seem to be getting positively long-winded since joining this board. Sometimes I try to resist responding or at least keep it short but then I'm off and running again. Maybe there's been a chatter-box hiding inside me all this time and now this is the "real me" coming out. Uh-oh.

quote:

Completely trusting her is like giving up my weapons and marching defenseless headlong into battle - stupid move.

quote:

I am still waiting for the shoe to drop with my T, I guess.

quote:

I read into little things, like if she sighs, or if her demeanor seems to abruptly change. I am also conscious of the fact that she has to keep repeating herself to reassure me, and it must get old for her. I'm not used to the idea that a person could actually be that patient with me.

This is exactly how it always felt with my former T. But others on this board have felt this way about their T's, too, and have recently gotten great results when they brought their fears up in the therapy (yes I'm talking about you, Pippi and Echo ). So how do you know if it's transference, or real?

The only way to know for sure is to bring it up in the therapy. I know, it's unbelievably scary. And I'm sorry if my story makes it even scarier for you. But the "worst" thing I was afraid of, abandonment, happened as a result of my being honest. The only alternative was to not be honest...and what kind of therapy would that be? Not that we have to dump everything out all at once, but if I have to actively hold something back in order to please my T, or keep them from being uncomfortable, then is the therapy really helping? Or am I better off "losing" them so I can find someone who can "handle" what I need to talk about?

Please understand that this is SO much easier to write than it is to do. I'm saying these things to convince myself as much as you. It hurt like crazy to lose him like that. I hope I have more healing experiences too, and it will happen with my current T. And it's through that, that I'm building that confidence and self-esteem you mentioned in your original post.

quote:

There really is a power imbalance in all of this therapy mess we're in.

Yes, and with great power, comes great responsibility. Or so said Spidey.

Our T's really have an awesome responsibility. Ideally they should be able to handle anything we throw at them...but something I can't quite forget is that they really are human just like we are. There's no such thing as a T without issues of their own. And it just stands to reason that in the great T lottery, sometimes patients end up with T's whose unresolved issues conflict with the issues the patient brings into the room. A T can only take you as far as they have gone themselves. So no one's fault, just the luck of the draw. So...maybe my issues were "too much" for my former T, but that doesn't make me intrinsically "too much".

I'm saying this over and over to myself because I'm feeling a tentative connection between this logic and my emotions and I'm trying to make it stronger. So thanks for putting up with my rambling!

Well I could go on and on but it's very late here and I must hit the hay. Thank you so much for responding, and for listening. I appreciate it more than I can say.

SG

quote:

Originally posted by echo:
Eagerly anticipating the thread about fathers... I have similar avoidance issues with mine, and gratefully my P hasn't directly/verbally connected those dots yet. I just can't bear to deal with that level of weird/creepiness quite yet. (He's not old enough to BE my father! I don't want to have sex with my father! I don't want this to be a daddy issue! ew ew ew!!!)

Echo, correct me if I'm wrong, the feelings you have for your T seem somehow related to your father, but there is also sexual attraction towards your T?

I have something similar. I love him absolutely in a non-sexual way, I adore him, but then there is also a hint of sexual attraction that pops up every now and again. I felt very confused about it, becuase I wanted it to be so pure. However he explained it to me, that there is a little girl part of me that loves him her way, and there is an adult me who sees him in a different way and wishes to have erotic fantasies about him.
And both are fine.

I'm glad my T is a man, otherwise I probably couldn't really challenge the men issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Hatter:
I am amazed you summoned the courage to try it again with a different T.

Only with LOTS and LOTS of support and reassurance from people on this board that I hadn't done anything "wrong" in the relationship with my former T. And meeting with a woman is a lot less scary for me.

Sometimes I want to ask my current T to get a copy of my records from the clinic. My former T always took notes and I'd really like to see what they said, although I don't know if those become part of the record I can see, or she can see. I also want her to meet with them just so she can get "their" side of the story. Because there is part of me that still worries that it really was my fault. Maybe if my current T sees what it is, she'll be able to help me see it, too. But obviously I can't tell her what it is if I can't see it to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Hatter:
I also believe that how we relate to a particular gender can get in the way or prolong the process.

This is what I mean. I've always had problems relating to men I am attracted to, which is exactly why I went to therapy in the first place. The first two T's I tried were women for this reason. My former T started as our couples T, but when I asked for individual therapy, he laid out the options and said he was leaning toward me meeting with him. I agreed to it, but I had misgivings about it right away because I already found him attractive even before "transference" started. But I persisted because I wanted to work through my issues with men. But now I'm worried that my problem got "in the way" like you said. And that's what the clinic said, too, that my feelings were "getting in the way" of the therapy. From their point of view, they were doing me a favor. Maybe I need to find a female T who relates really well to men and learn from her instead.

Okay I think I'm done for now. Thanks, again...
SG

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
Amazon,

Oh, I think I opened a can of worms here...I don’t have time to respond thoroughly right now but I just wanted to say, I’m sorry that what I said seems to have upset you so much. SG

Hi SG, nothing you have said upset me, you're alright.
It's men that are upsetting me.

Okay.

I think I also wanted to clarify what I meant, and what I didn't mean, out of respect for the men on this board.

Oy...I can tell it's getting toward the end of the week. This is about the point I start longing for my former T again. I still wish I could talk with him again and make it all right somehow. There were so many things I liked about him and I miss him.

I wish the feeling I get from meeting with my current T would last longer.

SG

quote:

I also believe the feelings evoked in therapy are the basis of the therapy and should not be seen as something that gets in the way.

Thanks, Summer. I know you are right about this and everything else you said. I'm sorry I seem to keep needing to hear it over and over again. I think it's that I'm really missing him right now. I'm really wishing he would have said the kinds of things to me that Pippi's and Echo's T's said to them. Or at least Charlotte's, if he had to transfer me.

MH, I'm sorry - I seem to have taken over your thread. I'll try not to do that again

SG

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
MH, I'm sorry - I seem to have taken over your thread. I'll try not to do that again.

SG, you are not taking over my post. I don't look at it that way at all. I haven't been contributing as much because I have a lot on my mind anticipating/dreading my session this afternoon. So I am just happy to see some dialogue going on! And I am sorry if my words were insensitive when I said that how we interact with a particular gender can "get in the way". I was thinking more of myself when I wrote that.

quote:

Originally posted by Amazon:
I'm glad my T is a man, otherwise I probably couldn't really challenge the men issue.

I can understand this point. I hope my female T can still find a way to help me with my male-related hang-ups.

Thanks for what you said, Echo. I hope you're right.

And I had to laugh very hard at the "fetish" you described. I felt very much like that during and after a few of my sessions with my former T! I'm not kidding - I wrote about this in my journal. It was terribly distracting. I ended up settling for ice cream cones.
SG

Thanks, MH! And I didn't think there was anything wrong with what you said about interacting with a particular gender. That's been on my mind a lot anyway so I wanted to discuss it and I'm glad you brought it up.

I hope your session goes well today!

SG