Hi Jones,

My T hasn't actually handed my file over to me, but she has indicated that I could review it if I wanted to. I have asked her on several occasions what she was writing down at the moment (she jots down notes as we talk in session) and she does tell me when I ask. But mostly it is just key words and phrases here and there -- nothing extremely detailed, just highlights. I think I would definitely want to see it all though if the file was being handed over to a new T. What do you have to lose in asking? I would be surprised if it isn't a request your T has had before.

My T doesn't take notes in session, but I know she jots down some stuff afterward...heh, I often see her writing stuff down before I'm even out her office door. Anyway, I remember in one of the forms I had to sign at the beginning that she had some section in there about notes that said that she normally doesn't give clients the notes to read since an unprofessional eye could take them the wrong way. But I think it did say that she would bring them in and she would talk about what the notes say with the client, so long as someone who was trained to read the notes could read them aloud and/or change them into lay man's terms. All in all, I don't think it's too much of a request. But I wouldn't be surprised if your T (if you were to ask for them) would request to talk about them together in session, or at least have you talk about them with the new T in session.

Hey, thanks for the response, MH. I don't know, it might be too late in a sense in that my T-leaving has already left - I wonder if she would need to have given permission for me to see them.

How did you bring it up with your T? Did it just come up of its own accord? I'm scared of seeming paranoid with the new T - my usual 'face' is pretty much blithe, trusting, unquestioning, etc.

I'm also sort of wondering why this is suddenly important to me. I feel quite wound up about it. It's sort of connected to the struggles I felt with disagreeing with my T-leaving's choice of a new T for me. It's like this big contradiction - as if in therapy you are supposed to be learning to be a better adult, but to do that somehow you're supposed to act like a kid, to trust their way ahead of your own way, let them guide you, and to somehow believe that their way IS better than your way, even though a) you have access to almost no evidence that this is the case and b) they have very little access to the actual inside of your life, in all its complexity.

My trusting self says oh, but it's not THEIR way, they are supposed to walk beside you and help you find your own way - but right now I just don't believe that - because if that were the case, why are there any such thing as case notes and treatment plans etc?

I feel shut out of this information and suddenly really upset about it - and yet I've never asked for any access to it before - so I guess being in that 'child' position is my own fault.

Uh, yeah, guess I'm triggered about being between Ts, huh. It's like the notes are the only tightrope between one T and another, and I'm supposed to just walk across with the blindfold on. I feel like if I'd followed my T's advice on the new T, there might be two ropes or a rope bridge or something, her endorsement, the security of her instinct and her plan, but now there's just this.

I think I better find some things to keep me busy till Tuesday.

jones, i see nothing wrong with it, and i have been tempted myself. i do think it is so interesting when they write and when they don't, and what they do with it. i am tempted to get T1 to forward his notes to me. don't know if he will, it may just upset me more. don't know about you, i guess my question to you would be to really think over WHAT you hope to gain by having them.

T3 takes massive notes, she must write in shorthand, but she goes through about three sheets of paper a session.

Hmm I’ve never wanted to see any notes about me (there are reams of them in various psychiatrists offices around the world lol) but I’m pretty sure I would if they were going to be passed from one T to another simply because I’d feel that a new T would be potentially influenced by a previous T’s opinions and I’d like to make sure that there would be no ‘misunderstandings’.

By the same token I suspect that reading a previous T’s notes could be pretty upsetting in that they would be bound to have used jargon and psychobabble and generic terms and it’s pretty unlikely any personal element would be present in the notes - thereby reducing one to being a faceless client! But it would be interesting all the same.

Jones it must be really hard for you at the moment - walking that tightrope in between old T and new T - I hope the hours pass really quickly for you until Tuesday - you’re only going to get some sense of equilibrium once you’ve had a proper session with new T and gotten some idea of how she’s going to be. That’s when you’ll feel reassured that you’ve done the right thing in going with your own choice of T.

In the meantime, keep that balancing pole straight and whatever you do, don’t look down!!!!

LL

quote:

It's like the notes are the only tightrope between one T and another, and I'm supposed to just walk across with the blindfold on.

I am not you, Jones, but one thing that has never been important for me to hide from my T is the fact that I am suspicious. My T and I both openly acknowledge my trust issues. So if it were me, I would take the above quote with me to my first session and put it out there as a way of being honest from the get-go about those feelings. You are, perhaps, worried about making a good impression? (I get stuck on that, just in different ways.) But how can she be of help if you won't be real with her? Of course, so much easier said than done. If we could all be real in every aspect with our Ts from day one, maybe we wouldn't be on this board, lol.

Hi Jones,
I've never read my Ts notes, but he did offer once that if I wanted to I could. My first T NEVER took notes, I think she used to sit down after I left and write up the session. My present T takes notes during the session and at first I found it EXTREMELY distracting. I brought it up to him that I found it distracting and that it made me a little self-conscious. He told me I was welcome to see them if I wanted to. I told him no at the time probably more because I was trying to be a good client. I no longer really notice him note taking anymore because it's just a part of our sessions. I also know him well enough by now to know that he's really bad at retaining details. Don't get me wrong. He remembers the important truths and knows me like no tomorrow, but I know the notes help him keep track of that stuff. But maybe someday I 'll ask again...

On the other hand, I know that my present T also had no interest in seeing stuff from my old T. He likes to keep himself open to what the client brings and I think he feels like hearing someone else's opinions would get in the way of that. I think a lot of Ts are like that. Even if they read the notes, they're still going to want to see for themselves what is going on. So I know it's hard but I wouldn't really worry too much about those notes affecting your relationship with your new T. Every relationship, including every theraputic relationship, is unique. She'll form her own opinion. And she'd have to be an idiot to have a bad one of you.

AG

quote:

She'll form her own opinion. And she'd have to be an idiot to have a bad one of you.

Amen to that.

Thanks you guys.

I have to say my concern about this is really about feeling extremely vulnerable in this in-between time. LL & AG - I've never felt the need to look at them before either. But now I feel like a little kid, and I have to look after myself, but I don't have the tools to look after myself and I'm probably not allowed them but I need them.

I had a rough weekend, and all the bad, difficult parts about the ending with my T jumped back at me. I had three months' notice and it still felt incredibly rushed. The last couples session was wound up really fast, and I found myself asked to commit to something on the spot in the last few minutes that I don't even understand. So of course I did because I knew we didn't have time to deal with the fallout from me saying anything else. And now thinking about that I feel really judged and betrayed and like a back-room deal was cooked up between our Ts that was supposed to solve everything and now I'm LEFT with it - what was the easy obvious answer for everyone except the deep-down me, who has been sold out. Even my husband is not here now to help me figure out what the hell I agreed to or what it means. And it has a real effect on my daily sense of stability.

Sorry, I realise this is no longer about notes. But the notes are the only vehicle, the only place where all that exists. And I guess the only place where my relationship with my T concretely exists.

I guess I need to talk to the new T about this - you're quite right, MH, when you say this "But how can she be of help if you won't be real with her?" But it's SO not what I wanted to bring in. There is other important stuff I want to establish. And yeah, I guess I don't want to go in with my guts hanging out, you know?

quote:

She'll form her own opinion. And she'd have to be an idiot to have a bad one of you.


Amen to that. Wink

Thanks sweethearts. It's going to take so long to form a connection and feel stable in it, and I'm really just hanging out here on this rope over some abyss in the meantime.

Jones, I really get where you are at. If it were me I would definitely want to know what my T had written about me, especially if they were ggoing to be passed on to anybody. Over here on the NHS, we have open access to medical records, it's sometimes a bit of a performance to get hold of them, but they are there for the patient to see if they wish and go through the correct channels. If you are being seen privately I am not so sure. My T has never written anything down in session about me, but remembers all sorts of stuff so accurately even years later, like a true elephant brain! She says she doesn't keep many notes, and I'm glad in a way. If I were you Jones I would want to know her opinion of me, in that I would want to know how she might portray me to another... because yes this is about you and you are the most important person here. But I guess there shouldn't really be anything that she hasn't already shared with you, so none of it might come as a surprise...maybe it's just the principal of the thing! Oh yes, and ditto to the others, definitely only very positive opinions I guarantee

I think it's worse because you are in limbo and understandably feeling probably quite vulnerable, so opinions that might previously have not mattered so much, can suddenly seem suddenly so crucial. Well that's how it might feel for me. If you can't ask your old T, how about asking your new one what info she has been given about you, so you are both singing from the same songsheet at the start? I know you don't t want to hijack your first session on this, but it might be a good starting point for both of you, and you could then correct any inaccuracies you discovered.

quote:

I'm really just hanging out here on this rope over some abyss in the meantime

Ooo hold on really tight Jones, hold on til you've properly met your T and got some connection. It will take time but maybe it will be really worth hanging on for. ((((Jones))))

starfish

Oh, my heart goes out to you Jones. Hang in there. Any transition can be really tough.

I hate it when T's have info about me and I don't know what it is for sure - it's weird for me. I want to see what they see!

I have seen a T's notes once - it happened by accident when I was first looking for a counselor. I saw the T about three times. Then I got an envelope in the mail from my insurance company that contained just my T's notes. Nothing else. My insurance company had mailed the T's notes to me - without the T even knowing. We aren't sure why they were sent...

I stopped reading the notes as soon as I realized what the heck they were. None of the content was a huge surprise, but somehow it was really hard. (and I am no longer with that insurance company and wasn't able to really hack it with the T. The T got really mad about it with the insurance company and we spent a therapy session talking about her anger with it. It was just messed up in so many ways... so I didn't go back after that.)

The T I see now knows about this that happened when I first looked into counseling. My T checks with me about any info she gives others - even other T's or my primary care doctor. She says she does it that way with everyone. She always tells me about what she they say and stuff. She doesn't change things to be how I like them or anything, but she just very deliberatly includes me. If I am not ok with her sharing something, she will hold off.

Now that I think about it, it's really helped me trust her a little more.

She says seeing notes of a T is something best done with the T right there looking through them with you, and usually done at the end of of therapy or it tends to be a therapy ending thing. Since you have ended with that T... maybe you could look over them with the new T together? I wonder how many T's would be ok with that - I don't think it would be many. I dunno why that is.

My old T, that I saw for about a year - well, you might remeber that everything fell apart very badly. I hated it when my old T gave me ultimatium to get info and records about me without including me in the process, before I was ready. It's weird for me when someone knows a bunch of things about me before I'm ready for them to know it - even though I know it might be helpful.

No matter what the notes say, if the new T is good, I think she would take the time to get to know you first hand for herself.

Ah, I know that feeling so well of knowing it's going to take time to connect with the new T, and to be hanging out over the abyss in the meantime... I've been there...

my only input is to proceed with carefulness about the notes... and hang on tightly!

we are here for you <3

Dear Starfish, it's lovely to see you again, I've been wondering how you are. Thanks for the support on this. I know how you feel about your T's elephant brain - I always felt a special thrill when my T remembered something, anything about me. It sort of didn't matter that she'd written stuff down (she told me she had a terrible memory) - it was the fact that she'd *cared* to write things down, and to read over the notes before session and think about them. A couple of times this system seemed to fail and she forgot really important stuff I'd told her. It felt so awful and I never let on. Because she was so genuine in her emotions at hearing the stuff again! I'm guessing THOSE things aren't in the notes, because they probably didn't make it onto the paper in the first place - maybe she was too busy genuinely feeling stuff about it the first time around!!!

So much of our relationship seems to exist in those notes now, and it's a really complicated feeling.

JD, thank you for understanding and for sharing what your T says about this. I love how careful she is with you about this. and I can see it would have been really disturbing to see the notes on your own without warning or explanation or support. No wonder you didn't like opening the mail for a while there.

When I think about this I think I DON'T want to see what was written. I feel like it will have all the rough parts of our relationship (her judgements and assessments that I may not agree with) and none of the nice parts - the care and listening and connection. You can't write those things down, I don't think.

But I still do need to talk to the new T about this tonight. It still feels so unfair that I don't KNOW what she is being given about me.

As I sit with all these feeling about the notes over the last couple of days, lots of stuff has been coming back about my early childhood. I've been remembering things in lots of detail, where I've felt before like I couldn't access those things. It's not forgotten trauma so much as just details of life as it was - lots of upheaval and uncertainty. Being moved from one life to a totally different one, a couple of times around the ages of 4-6. Having no say over it, very little information, having to just go along with it and act like it's okay. Not a nice feeling.

(((SF, JD)))

Jones

{{{{{Jones}}}}}

Good luck with the new T tonight...I hope you get some good answers about what she is being given about you, and that it's enough to take away that awful powerless feeling of having no say about what is going on right now...and I also hope you get the beginnings of a new connection that can eventually help heal the hurts to the little 4-6 year old Jones (and all the other ages the hurts happened). Keep us in the loop...

SG

EDIT: There was one other thing about the notes. Both times I asked to see my records during the therapy with my former T, I was given a computer printout that had hardly any notes on it at all - just a brief statement about what brought us into therapy, and that the T and I had gone to individual. But there was a whole lot more than that, because he took notes in every session. I would really be interested to compare our "notes" together, since I took my own "notes" in the form of a journal - especially with the way things ended in such a supposed misunderstanding. It really kicks up some anger wondering what he said...and feels very unfair that I was not asked more questions about my side of it. That "powerless" feeling you mentioned, Jones...that's exactly what it feels like. Anyway I'm glad to hear there are T's who are careful and considerate about this, and I hope this new T is one of them.

I read my psychiatrist notes after he stopped seeing me several years ago. I called and told him I wanted copies of my files since they say legally I can see and get copies of anything written in the file. They asked if they could just send them to a new doctor and I said no I wanted them handed to me so they made copies and I went and picked them up. I read as much as I could but he had bad handwriting which made it difficult. We have never talked about it or discussed anything he wrote since I have started as his patient again. My T that I have been seeing for 6 months offers all the time to let me see and says that I am allowed to any time I want and she has no problem with it. But I dont ask cause I feel like if I ask while I am still her patient then I am saying I dont trust her.

The only reason I wanted the copies from my psychiatrist back then is because I wanted a chance to see him again and knew that was my only chance to go to the office and the other reason is I wanted something from him that he wrote since I was not going to get to spend any time with him anymore.

I've often wondered, hey, what's he writing there? Used to bother a bit. But once he referred to them as his "precious" notes (not in a ironic way, at all, he really meant it, and I've forgiven it ever since. Kind of made me feel like he cares about me. But to have them handed over to another T must be making you feel like two people are talking about you behind your back, in a way, and yeah, that would be a powerless feeling. Who wouldn't want to listen in? Plus as an intelligent person who takes her own healing (can I say her-? I know you are a womble ) very seriously, I imagine it would feel like something that could be helpful for you to know is being withheld from you as if you are a child who cannot handle such information, "we adults know best, we'll tell you when you are older..." Could be pretty powerless feelings from the past, for sure. I hope you will find some resolution...let us know how your appointment went tonight and if you were able to bring it up- we are cheering you on outside the cabin door!

BB

Hi all,

Just wanted to let you know I had my first session with new T last night, and it went really, really well. I brought up the fact I was feeling weird about the notes. She said she had read the summary and the family tree, but had decided for herself not to read the rest, because it felt intrusive, given that I hadn't chosen to share those things with her. She said she would rather work on the basis of our interactions. She also said the notes were mine, and that any time I wanted to read them she was happy for me to do so, and I could book an appointment just for that.

She won SO many trust points with me for dealing with it this way - big relief.

Jones

I am so glad, on so many levels she sounds like she has her head well screwed on.

quote:

She said she had read the summary and the family tree, but had decided for herself not to read the rest, because it felt intrusive, given that I hadn't chosen to share those things with her

Perfect That is wholly appropriate and so very sensible that she wants to form her own opinions and judgements (in a non-judgemental way of course ) She is right , it IS intrusive and information that you should choose to share if and when you wanted to.

I am also glad that she gave you the opportunity to read the notes too, maybe the urgency might diminish now that you can if you want - it often happens that way doesn't it? Especially as she is not placing so much importance on them herself.

I can hear your relief and am so glad Jones, and pleased that you have started to trust her already. That's great news

starfish

Oh wow, Jones...in your other thread I said I LIKE the sound of this T...now let me change that to say I LOVE the sound of this T!!! +1000 points for trust!

I'm doing cartwheels for you Jones!! This made my day, thank you for sharing it!

SG

This sounds like a really good beginning! I think you are going to be glad you stuck with your instincts and insisted on this T over the younger one. I am looking forward to hearing more about her. And you deserve some credit too for being up front with her, broaching the subject of the notes. Good things are on the horizon, J!

Good one Jones! I really like that she didn’t read the notes herself - that says a lot of good things about her. Do you think you will get around to reading them yourself after all? At least it’s good to know that if you ever feel you need to, you have the free and open option.

I’m so glad your first meeting went well (((( Jones ))))

LL

That's fantastic, Jones. What a great way to start your relationship!

all I have to say is- "Goody, goody, gumdrops!"

So happy, Jones, and so happy that you took care of your needs by asking for this T! Just feeling so proud of YOU, on so many levels, here.

BB

Hi Jones,
That was just awesome to hear! Both of you handled that perfectly. I have a good feeling about this T, I really appreciate the respect that she's showing you. Thanks for letting us know!

AG

Jones,

That is GREAT!!! I am so happy that the first session went so well and that she is so respectful of you.

Jones, that was the best of all answers she could have given and I'm so happy she seems sensitive to your needs. This seems to be a good indication that things will go well with this new T. I wish you the best!

TN

Thanks all!!! I have a really good feeling about this too.