(((((Jones)))))

Ugh, disconnecting sessions are the worst. I'm sorry T didn't seem to get where you were at with anything this session. Maybe the attunement was off?

quote:

And I said I would try to work out a date for couples with my H this week but now I don't even know why I would bother, seeing as this is all my problem anyway. So maybe I just WON'T. BLAH.

It made me sad to hear you are in such a defeated-feeling place. I'm sure your T absolutely doesn't think it is all your problem or your fault. Is there any way to send an email or do a five minute call or something and just let him know how you feel about the session? Sometimes just getting it off my chest helps...as long as I know I can get a reassuring reply pretty quickly.

Hi Yaku,

Thanks for the hugs.

Yeah, the attunement was off. Not all the way through, and I know the relationship stuff will end up being helpful, it's just left me feeling down and I'm having a tanty. Defeated feels right.

Manatee's practice has a policy of no outside-session contact. But we'll probably get back on track next session, I guess.

sorry. Hope I didn't bum you out more. What about just writing it out as if you were writing it to him? Even if you can give it to him literally, you can "give it to him" metaphorically. I know that can be helpful for some people. For example, I wrote something to T that I wasn't sure he would even be willing to read, but just getting it out, the act of pretending to share it, I guess, was like a huge weight was lifted. Writing in the second person really helps me to alleviate those pressing/crushing feelings.

It's okay Yaku - no extra bumming out. I do sort of try not to write directly 'to' him in this way, metaphorical or not. I feel like it would open up or foster a whole lot of one-sided feeling for me and I just can't be bothered going there any more - I've been through that a lot in the past and it doesn't feel like the reality of where I'm at now. And Manatee is not encouraging it. Our sessions are very focused on my life stuff, not on our relationship, and I'm okay with that but it means there's not a lot of space for processing that kind of material if I get into it.

I am not questioning this direction in anyone else's therapy, by the way, it can be entirely appropriate and very healing, I know - I'm just not there at the moment myself. So I think venting a bit is all I need right now.

Thank you for hearing me... and for being the night watch on Psych Cafe - it's really nice that you are here.

Jones

Hey DF, (((more hug))).

I'm hoping you're right about the steering away.... I saw him touch his mouth right then, which is an unusual gesture for him. Art-T used to do it all the time, and I figured it kind of signalled that she was out of her depth and concealing her real responses. I mean I don't like to make too much of occasional instances of whatever, but it just caught that feeling of dissonance I had.

Yeah, my H agreed to go.... I guess this is good but for the life of me I can't figure out what the hell I want to go there for. Especially now I'm like - hmm, actually maybe I DO prefer him over there, and not close to me. And I'm totally hacked off that once again we are focused on the relationship stuff and I feel isolated in my creative stuff.

Ha, thank you for the sympathy on the role-play! Manatee has a talent for NOT making things feel totally dorky - I couldn't have done this with Curly-T or Art-T, neither of whom possessed the same talent. But he just didn't make a big deal about it. He just said "Ok, now H is in the room. If I'm you and I just said blah blah to him, what would he say?" and we went from there, which was not too taxing on my shudder gland. But yeah, we just ran out of time right after the scales fell from my eyes and I realised it was NOT like I thought it was, leaving me to contemplate my crapness for the rest of the week.

So now I just... yeah, I could probably ask H if he's ready to make the appointment yet, but I'm not ready now, because if the problem with our relationship is me avoiding him all the time then why do I want to go back there to fix that? I don't!! I just want to focus on my work!!

But yeah, I have to do all the planning or nothing happens. But I also have to ask permission to plan whatever. I've done the lying about start times too....

Fortnight... 2 weeks! Reclaim it before it is lost to the English language! Yep, I want my freaking day back. It sucks because the practice is so casual about the appointments, like you're not supposed to get too thingy about it because Toughen Up.

THANK YOU for the positive vibes, jay bird.... love you too.

xxx

Hey Monte!

Yeah, I feel like if we kept going down that political track I would probably just have had to conclude that he is Wrong About The Whole World and then I couldn't trust him with anything. It is a yuck feeling.

Avoiding an emotional response... yeah, probably! I felt really soppy the week before, so I guess this is the down-swing.... It's okay to say, Montezuma - it's just my thing I guess. Same as with my husband - why would I WANT to get closer when he's not going to give me what I want? I DON'T!!!

xxxxJones

((((Jones))))

That role play sounded terrible!! I am so sorry you had to endure that. Did your T know how upsetting it was for you?

Aww, thanks LG ((((LG)))).

To be honest, it was ok most of the way through and it was... um, enlightening even at the end. But it just FELT bad, you know? He did know it upset me at the end. He saw me slump and let me stay there for a moment... just a little bit, was quiet with me for about 15 seconds. Then he started packing up and said (I had been in a good mood at the beginning of the session) "Well, now you have to try to get back to that bubble you were in when you came in!" I said "THANKS." But we were both kind of joking. And he said "Just until you have time to process it."

So yeah, he knew. But I'm basically ok and he would have known that too. :/

J

((Jones)) Just wanted to send my thoughts your way.

Dearest Jones,



I'm sorry. Can I be frank? It just seems like people around you who are supposed to be taking care of you as an individual with needs of your own, are perpetually making it about your relationship, and what YOU need to do to fill the other's need- which you have done enough of, already, in your life..imo. It's as if you exist in the relationship and only in the relationship- and nowhere else? If so- I hear you struggling to be freed of that, NOT because you are not committed to your relationship, but because you do not want to be consumed and entirely defined by it, especially when it becomes a place of deprivation for you, as in:

quote:

it's just my thing I guess. Same as with my husband - why would I WANT to get closer when he's not going to give me what I want? I DON'T!!!

It just seems like- maybe part of what you want is to be left alone, and not gobbled up- and another part needs the caring- Ok- don't get me wrong- I'm all about relationship being the most important thing that nurtures us and the other, and is supposed to be a place of interdependence, safety and care, refueling- so that we can do what we need to do- and want to do with our lives as individuals. And that if it's not going that way- it definitely needs to be fixed. But I'm so, so sad that you always, despite your best efforts- seem to get ever-so-gently lifted up and re-placed into this position where, unless you give up your heart and soul and allow it to be ignored and/or trampled, you are the freaking "bad one" who isn't giving enough. IT'S NOT FAIR!! totally totally not fair and just...rarrr! And not true!! It is time for someone else to cough something up here. As in- minimally- WANT to go to therapy in order to learn for himself how he can try to give YOU more of what you need too- or learn how to leave you alone when you need to be left alone- and so on. Forget the guilt about avoiding him. *Of course* you are going to avoid someone who is your husband- who seems to often make you feel more like a freaking mom. - but YOU have needs for emotional nurturing and being taken care of as every person does- and they are legitimate, necessary for your survival even if just to have something left over to offer in your creative work- and maybe he needs to start working as hard as you are here, on caring enough to figure out what the problem is between you and try to fix.
I just find it strange, and unfair. Sorry, Jones- if I am being all mad and inappropriate and maybe not hearing you correctly because of my own filters. Just toss this if what I've written is not working for you. But I just- arg. I care about you and hate to see you hurting and feeling ignored emotionally. Even if what you emotionally need- is to be left alone or whatever, to just be able to stop giving for awhile, without being guilted- or whatever.

I was bugging my H for two three days this time- no pressure, just gently asking for a commitment one way or the other, on if he was coming to session or not- which is freaking hard enough enough to give up my time with my T for him, as it is! - but saying- you are welcome to come to sessions, and will you please let me know what you decide by the night before so that I have some preparation time. He never gave me an answer but found some way to wriggle out of a simple, direct, *adult* decision. Just looking a gift horse in the mouth, you know? Here I am making this huge sacrifice of my legitimate needs for individual therapy- in order to make time and money for marriage counseling- and he doesn't even want it for himself. I'm supposed to muscle him into accepting my sacrifice, too? SO- I have to ask you- how are you supposed to know what the heck you want to say to someone who doesn't even feel like a *person*? The most I can feel is a flicker of compassion, but it's just not a big turn-on, you know?

quote:

Yeah, my H agreed to go.... I guess this is good but for the life of me I can't figure out what the hell I want to go there for. Especially now I'm like - hmm, actually maybe I DO prefer him over there, and not close to me. And I'm totally hacked off that once again we are focused on the relationship stuff and I feel isolated in my creative stuff.

I avoid closeness too, Jones- and my T is perpetually trying to get me to be the one to move closer to my H. And you know what- I'm not feeling guilty anymore. If he wants to make it happen, he can. I'm done. Why should I make myself so freaking vulnerable to him? So he can just take and take and parasitically suck the life out of me. Not happening. He's on his own. He'll have to find his own reason for being. Harsh maybe. yeah. harsh. But I've had it.

It just resonates- so much. I hear you feeling left behind by by your H and also by Manatee, in terms of your creative work and personal goals- and also emotional needs- and that hurts in me. The same is happening in my therapy, and relationship- and I don't even know why. I'm not necessarily saying that I think it isn't something that needs to happen -or that isn't my fault in ways I don't fully understand- but just *sense* or assume it *must * be..however- it hurts like hell. My heart really goes out to you.

I really hope that you will be able to use your sessions for what *you need.* For myself, I have left the door open for my H to come with me, and no matter how much he begs me to beg him/force him to come in subtle ways- I am NOT going there. It's in his court. If he comes great, and if not- I'll cover my own shit in therapy- I have enough of it to deal with. I can feel myself becoming all hardened- and it hurts. I don't like becoming this way.

Like you, I've also almost given up on the concept of an emotional connection in therapy. Maybe that is just the way it has to be. I still have this *tiny hope* that my T will actually want to connect to "little me" but I am going to have to do therapy without that, more than likely, because of the trust issues around this whole marital therapy thing. Do you ever feel like there is some deeper issue in this situation that you are missing? idk why I ask, I guess because I have this uneasy sense that I'm not understanding something really crucial, and was just wondering if you ever feel the same way.

anyway- Jones, I know you have a difficulty processing responses sometimes, so please- at least feel no pressure to respond to this, I won't be hurt or in the least upset if you can't, or if you need to tell me that I have heard you incorrectly. I just wanted to share and let you know that I validate and empathize with your feelings here-
I think you are in a really difficult situation. I hope and pray you will be able to find a way to to get your emotional needs met-

quote:

Yep, I want my freaking day back. It sucks because the practice is so casual about the appointments, like you're not supposed to get too thingy about it because Toughen Up.

...needs for a Friday session, for one thing- which really isn't asking Manatee or the practice to move worlds for you, they should be more accommodating, for one thing, and for another- you deserve to have your therapy on the day you need and want it to be, so there.

much love, xo,

BB

holy crap! I didn't realize that was so long until I posted it!

My Beebers - that was an awesome, kick-arse post. I will be enjoying that one for a while. Thank you, and I'll write back when I can.

Love,
Jones

Hugs too (((Smiley))) - thank you for the comfort, it's really nice to see you.

BG, YES, humour saves my life in T and everywhere... would be unbearable without it. Thank you for your thoughts! (((BG)))

J

Hi BG - no, I didn't feel minimized at all. The humour is really important to me too, and just as much a part of the experience as the hard stuff. Thanks for checking in!

J

(((Jones)))
I'm sure the two of you will get back on track soon!! I hate the loose appt arrangements and 'no outside of session contact' too - it raises very 'I don't really matter' stuff, which is the last thing we need!!
Take care!

(((Jones)))

I'm sorry things got so off track and you left feeling worse and without a way to resolve it until your next session. I wish I had some great insight or advice, but I think others have given some really good feedback. Thinking of you!

Dearest Bee,

Well it's taken me a while to come back to this, just from busyness, but I have to say I got a total kick out of your message - it's actually great to hear you all fired up and laying down the law! And if my situation helps you connect with that for your own, well I'm all for it! And for me too. I have been thoroughly peed off this week, for a lot of the reasons you put your finger on, but mostly that underground sense of betrayal and abandonment about my personal stuff not being first while we focus on the relationship stuff. It's HARD. The individual sessions become less intimate, and when we talk about this there's a lot of kind of covering basic ground that annoys the hell out of me. Manatee hasn't seen the notes for the couples work, because there's no firm agreement yet, so he's not totally up to play like he usually is with my individual stuff. And then there's this feeling I have that I'm boring on my own and he's much more excited about this. But I think that one is probably a projection.

What you describe with your H refusing to let you know his decision on the couples session and then just *turning up* is so familiar. And infuriating. I can see how from his unconscious angle maybe it was no big deal, even it was a positive thing because once he was able to he was reaching out to you and towards the therapy. But bloody hell, I would have felt tricked, invaded, controlled, manipulated and so on. I'm really glad that T kept the boundary there and protected you.

Well, having said all that, things have shifted again for us here. Somehow my H is more *present*, as he hasn't been pretty much since we stopped T. We planned a holiday-at-home for Easter today and that was awesome - shared even, not me pushing *everything*. And we have a date tomorrow to discuss booking a session.

I don't know how this has happened. It must be something to do with how I am being, I think, but I can't figure it out. It's like I just wanted to be as far away as possible, was feeling depressed and alone all week, and then somehow it was ok to move a bit closer again. It's good, it's progress. I guess I just processed something on some unconscious level. Maybe it's just the product of seeing, owning, accepting my own desire for distance.

Still feel angry at Manatee though. But it's that more global anger of just - the impossibility of someone being totally close an hour a week and then totally absent the rest of it. And being *just* a client. Sucks. I don't feel like I *want* to be anything more - I don't - but yet the pain comes up at the futility of it all. It's all mine, the pain, and it's only ever going to be mine. This probably sounds worse than I feel though. At this stage I'm actually pretty chipper.

I was thinking earlier that if a T really cared about a client, they would not want the client to be alone and unsupported for the rest of the week or the rest of their life except in the hours of T. Maybe they would want to care for the client by helping to arrange the environment around the client so the client felt care and support from everywhere possible. I like this idea, but it's hard for me to connect with personally because I've never discussed this stuff with Manatee.

Take care, Beebs. It's really nice to see you put your foot down. It seems important.

Love,
Jones

Hey Morgs, you are so right about 'I don't matter'. Those rules are really bugging me right now, they seem so - arrogant! Thanks for the solidarity, honey. (((Morgs)))

STRM, thank you too my dear - (((STRM))). Just a couple of days now till session....

Love, Jones

quote:

I was thinking earlier that if a T really cared about a client, they would not want the client to be alone and unsupported for the rest of the week or the rest of their life except in the hours of T. Maybe they would want to care for the client by helping to arrange the environment around the client so the client felt care and support from everywhere possible.

I think this is absolutely true, Jones- I hope that you can find some comfort in this idea- that seems really positive.

Thanks for so kindly putting up with my big 'ol rant.

BB

Jonesy I’ve read and reread this thread and I keep finding myself stuck for words, stuck in fact for getting a feel of what you are explaining. It’s like you are dealing with things on a level about a zillion times above me and I’m struggling to find anything to say that could be remotely helpful or supportive. Sorry, I really never intended to just ignore this thread.

So finally I have come up with a way to show some support – and that’s to ask how your session went, because I’m assuming you had it today? I hope it went well and you feel more in step with Manatee, but either way it would be good to hear how you are.

Sending you lots of good wishes (((( Jones ))))

LL

Oh LL, it's just lovely to see you. I'm sorry you feel stuck! But your hugs are all the words that need saying. I've loved seeing your posts popping up again and wanted to respond on your Anger thread, but I too ended up a bit lost for words and short on time.

Well, the time between my last post and the appointment was pretty yuck - the conversation with my H didn't go well, and I ended up really despondent. But the appointment itself was ok. I keep thinking I will push things further, make more space to talk about the relationship but it doesn't even occur to me in the sessions themselves, so I'm just going to give up on that idea for now. He is still really going hard on getting us into couples therapy, and we spent all session on that, with him suggesting different approaches, us talking about why it was important, etc. It is important for me now. I have mixed feelings about the priority on it but I get it, too. And I like how blunt he is about it. At one point he said "So what am I supposed to do, just go into denial about this?" as in denial about whether this is important. For some reason I liked that, because I do just slip into denial about it (all the reasons we need couples therapy) all the time and it's nice to hear him acting like he couldn't do that.

Having said that I find it hard to hold on to why it's important once I get home. He gave me a handout which lays out Healthy Intimacy vs Dysfunctional Intimacy and that pretty much dealt to that problem! Very clear....

At another point I lost my temper with the way he was just suggesting approach after approach on it, giving me all these handouts to share with my H etc. He asked me if I wanted to tell him the concrete stuff I could mention to my H and I just without thinking about it said "NO! I don't! I'm TOTALLY F'ING OVER the whole thing!!" and then we sat there in companionable silence for about three whole long minutes. I guess he was waiting for me to say something! But I didn't. So then he just... I can't remember what he said, but basically just picked up the conversation again, backing off the pressure though, and I didn't really feel angry any more, just carried on too, kind of showed him that I didn't really mean what I said. A little later a bird came and played by the window and we just took it easy and chatted about that, it was friendly. Actually it was funny, apparently this bird tries and tries to get in at the window all the time - Manatee said "And yet he *looks* smart!" which made me laugh. I guess a lot of smart-looking birdies try the same shut window over and over again.

Yeah, more in step, less intensity, more surface conflict, less under-surface tension. No appointment for almost a couple of weeks now so that I can get my Friday back....

Thanks for asking dear Lampers -

love,
Jones

Jones - I'm sorry (but I also understand) that he's still pushing so hard on the marriage stuff, but glad you were able to be blunt right back at him on how it was making you feel. I struggle doing that in sessions. It only comes out after, usually!

Jonesy glad your session was positive and that you feel more in step with Manatee (though two weeks is a long time to wait for your next session - is that because of Easter?)

I think I understand why I was feeling a bit lost reading your thread before - it just struck me that the whole issue of couples therapy suddenly appeared and I had been assuming that you were seeing Manatee for you, to deal with primarily the creative stuff, things personal and unique to you, and I get the impression that it's Manatee who has been pushing you into resuming couples therapy rather than that being something you were considering in the first place. So now you seem to be using your sessions to sort out the couples stuff - while obviously that's important, I'm feeling that maybe your own personal goals for therapy are having to go on the backburner.

Is it that you are convinced of the importance of the couples therapy because you really do see it as important, or is it Manatee's pushing for it that has made it an emotional priority? Hm that could sound really patronizing, sorry. I guess it's that I'm sensing quite a lot of ambivalence in you about how the therapy is going at the moment, so I wondered if it wasn't Manatee's forcefulness and apparent directiveness that's causing that? Of course, I could be reading this totally incorrectly, which is highly likely (one reason I've not felt able to post before, I think I'm just trying to double guess what you are explaining and potentially failing utterly to get you...)

In any event, I'm pleased you're feeling a bit better about it and I hope the wait passes quickly until your next session.

LL

Hi Jones,

Thanks for updating us on your recent session with Manatee. As you know I'm not in a place of clarity myself with regard to therapy and T's in general. I needed some time as to how to respond to you.

I am impressed that you could tell him where to go with his idea of discussing couples therapy and then sit there in "companionable" silence for a few minutes. I would have been seething with anger and probably refused to talk to him the rest of the session.

I very much agree with what LL has written above. I was under the impression that you were going to Manatee for your own issues and with the work creativity issue and that your therapy would be focused on you except for intermittant times when you and dh with both of your Ts would meet for some couples work. It seems that Manatee is really focused and excited about the couples work when you would prefer to work on your relationship with him and subsequently advancing your own therapy. I would probably be furious with my T if that happened. In my case when dh and I met with oldT for "parenting" only it turned out rather badly. I had been with oldT for almost 3 years at that point and having my dh join us was a total disaster for me. I had all kinds of crazy feelings that night and ended up in a disruption with my oldT which I had thought we repaired but I have a feeling it was the final nail in the coffin of our relationship. So please forgive my bias against using an individual T to do couples work.

I think the best thing is to come clean with Manatee and discuss the fact that you want more focus on you and the therapeutic alliance instead of couples work. Maybe you need more time to settle in with Manatee or more time to develop the safety and trust that is needed before delving into the couples work. I can hear the little part of you yelling "hey, what about ME?" I think she deserves to be heard.

I hope the time passes quickly and w/o pain for you Jones, and that you can find the opportunity to have an honest and direct conversation with Manatee about your feelings and that he accepts your feelings and hears what you need to say. I do like Manatee and I think things will work out with some time. It really hasn't been that long.

Wanted to add here... glad you are getting your Friday appointment back!

Sending hugs
TN

Jones,

i would say that more surface conflict, less under-surface conflict is huge step in the right direction!

I love that T didn't challenge you about your angry outburst and just let you sit with it for a few minutes. Those three minutes followed by the bird trying to get in the window sounded really peaceful actually. Like it was good to get that outburst out of your system.

quote:

Those rules are really bugging me right now, they seem so - arrogant! Thanks for the solidarity, honey

Easy peasy J!!

quote:

Actually it was funny, apparently this bird tries and tries to get in at the window all the time - Manatee said "And yet he *looks* smart!" which made me laugh. I guess a lot of smart-looking birdies try the same shut window over and over again.

Shit Jonesy - does that just describe the T relationship down to a 'T' (sorry!!) I wonder if he even had a clue about what he said!! I could say this is just 'men'! but dammit - female Ts are just as obtuse at times!!!

GROAN!!! Sorry all this is happening! but you will get through it!
xx

Hey Morgs you just picked up on something that struck me too when reading about Jones' session - that little birdie. I kind of overlooked it at the time but had a strong sense at the back of my head that it was highly significant and symbolic - what do you think Jones? Are we reading something into it that wasn't there?

LL

Hi Yaku,

Yep, it's taken me a while to get to the 'blurt' mode! I don't do it most of the time, but it just so happened that I was doing a physical action right then - putting aside all the papers he was giving me, that somehow seemed to prompt it and it fell out! It felt good. More of that, I think.

Hi there LL & TN. You are quite right that the focus has been on my creative work - that's what I've wanted and what I still need from him. I think he's come to the conclusion that the relationship stuff is really draining my energy on that because I'm not getting 'fed' in certain ways, and because when the relationship is unstable it's immensely distracting. So it's sort of the logical thing to end up here. I do see it as important, and I feel Manatee's care in addressing this, but I also feel ambivalent about it. Perhaps the main reason for that is that the last three sessions or so have focused on this and my non-creative work stuff, and not at all on the creative work. So I really need to express my need to come back to that EVERY week, at least to touch in, no matter what happens. Without his attention to this, I just don't do it. That is hard to express - would make me feel very vulnerable to express that. But it is my responsibility. With that attended to, we could go ahead with the couples stuff I think, but it's hard for me to imagine blurting this!

It's funny, though, there's sort of a symmetry about him directing me into the relationship stuff and me not wanting to get closer to him. It's like I just can't launch myself at him. And so I don't make eye contact or show him my writing for these reasons - to control the sense of intimacy. But it feels right, like given my history (of emotional-affair-type-attachments) and my current situation, it's actually ok to control this distance and work on the stuff we're working on. He seems to affirm that - like he's present, but he doesn't draw me nearer to him. Maybe when the relationship stuff is moving again it will feel safer to go closer.

I would like to be clearer about my need for the creative connection, though.

Interestingly the sheet he gave me on Healthy Intimacy vs Dysfunctional Intimacy (google those words to see what it says) is helping me feel like it will be safer to share this. It says right there on the sheet that taking the initiative to express wants and needs is healthy! So it must be ok! I might take the sheet in with me next time.

Despite my griping and struggling with various things, I do want to say that it still all feels really positive. I had a shit week last week, but this week is good again and the trend is up!

Thanks for the thumbs up LG! Morgs and LL - you are quite right about the bird thing - it was a really funny moment because the way he said it was like an unspoken joke about people and I really got a giggle. It's so funny you see the bird as the T, Morgs - I thought about it as the bird is T trying to get me to persuade my H, the bird is me trying to persuade my H, and the bird is my H trying to do what he does without therapy, the bird is all of us going about doing our dumb things over and over again!

love,
Jones

Hey Jones,
It's amazing how many different interpretations can be made about one sentence/scenario isn't it! I guess that's one of the wonderful things about this community - the sharing of perspectives!! I hope you're doing okay Jonesy!

Have to go now - Morgs is being 'social' today (almost unheard of outside the office) and having her one friend in this town for Good Friday lunch!! Woo hoo!!!

xx M