Hi Frog
Oh no, what a huge session for you and it must be agony waiting for a reply. I wish i did know what was going on in your T's head but i don't so i will have to stick with what i do know.

Talking about something that makes you feel as vulnerable as transference comes with this terrible bleak kick-back and what if's. It is horrible and i have never really found a way to avoid it except to remind myself over and over that it is okay to speak up and to feel what you are feeling.

T's can be really dumb sometimes so maybe he is not responding so that you stay with your feelings and don't get hooked up in his response. It is actually quite important that he keeps boundaries now i imagine but oh, Frog i am sorry. A simple message and some reassurance would make you feel human again and sometimes i wonder why T's dont know this.

Frog, you are so not pathetic, and i AM PANDORA so effectively it is my box and therefore you have to believe me, becaue hey, if i dont know, who would.

You have been brave and honest and have taken such a huge step that it is okay to feel a bit bewildered. But i cannot think of a single thing to be ashamed about in loving someone who is helping you heal. That is something to be proud of, that you can and do love and care and feel. Shame is for when you are doing something wrong, not doing something right. And you have done something so right...

Pan

i have felt and behaved exactly how you describe. down to the texting.
im not sure what goes on these people's heads. he is either busy or thinking about the most helpful way to respond.

i dont know what to say. i know this stuff feels like a really big deal. yet its totally not. so hopefully you will find a way to care for yourself while these feelings settle down and you reconnect with your T. chances are, when u reconnect, you will feel much better.

Pan and DR- thanks for your support and understanding. I appreaciated it. Pan, sorry for messing up with you nickname- he he. I agree that maybe T are being extra careful about the boundaries now, and maybe therefore not replying. I am sure he has a good reason. He`S a good T. Yet, i am so living in that hope that he hasnt seen the text yet, and will answer them tomorrow morning.

I just wished i knew for sure whether the lack of respond is connected to todays session, or if its just that T hasnt seen my texts yet. I dont seem to manage to drag my self up from this hole. I am too worried, and angry at myself for saying too much in session today, i should have known that it would come a massive reaction afterwards. And i should feel reliefed, not hating myself...

((((Frog))))),
Proud of you for opening the box, even if it is scary.

My guess regarding your T not replying to the texts is that he either hasn't had time to reply or he is waiting to talk to you in person on Friday. So much of communication can be misconstrued and misinterpreted in text messages. Perhaps he is just wanting to make sure you have this important conversation in person so that there are no misunderstandings.

Thank you all for being so positive and supportive

UPDATE: One hour ago i got the text from T. He hadnt seen my text`s from yesterday, before this morning. He said he was sorry that i got so sad and regretted what i told him. He said he thought it was very important that we talk more about it and that i should come back in for my session tomorrow.

I havent replied yet. I dont know if i am able or want to continue to talk about this feelings for him. Yet alone, expose my voulnerability even more.
I know he`s waiting for my reply... heck, this is so hard.

Dear ((Frog))
I suggest you let it go for now and deal with it at your session tomorrow and do talk it all through with him - he sounds like such a lovely, caring and experienced man and T - what a good combination Understand how you feel vulnerable but my feeling is that this needs to be out there and discussed Part of the healing/therapy process!! Close your eyes/grab a pillow or cushion or something and let it happen
Hugs to you Frog
Morgs

Dear froggy

Firstly well done for your bravery. It feels so awful now because what you talked about that was so painful, is out in the open, so I guess there is relief that is overshadowed by vunerability. But you did the right thing and his response was perfect too - that is exactly what you need to do, to go back to this gentle man who seems so open to discussing these very important issues with you.

Perhaps a quick text back to acknowledge that you had his reply and that you will see him tomorrow. Then tomorrow you can decide how you use the session,

Thoughts and (((hug))) to you,

starfish

((((Morgs, Starfishy and BG)))) You guys are so lovley. I just replied T`s text, telling him i am not sure whether to come or not, since i am still struggling with ambivalance regard to talking further about this. Now i am waiting for another text. Again...*sigh*

I know you are right do- i SHOULD go back and tell him how i feel about this, instead of isolating and hide. I will let you know what i decide.
Thanks again for your support, - i feel a little better every hour now.

Oh good grief, you might be feeling better Frog but i accused YOUR FABULOUS AND WONDERFUL T of being dumb and feel terrible, the poor man didn't see the sms and here i was saying dreadful things, sorry, sorry, sorry. Sigh!

I will not say another word until i talk to you tomorrow right after your session.

Go on, get in there... off you go...!
Love Pan

Hi Frog,
Sorry for being so late to the thread, but I want to agree with BG and say yay you!! It takes a huge amount of courage to be so open about your feelings and I found your reaction totally understandable. We make ourselves so vulnerable when we expose such deep emotions that of course its scary. I totally understand your ambivalence about continuing to discuss these feelings, but I think a lot of the work of therapy gets done by exploring those feelings. I am sorry your T missed your texts, this was NOT a good time for you to have to wait to hear back. But I am glad that he is being calm and accepting about hearing this from you. I hope your session goes well tomorrow.

AG

Hi Frog,

Sorry to post so late. I was out of time for the last 2 days. Always late to the party. Just wanted to send my love and support. Know how unnerving that vulnerable feeling feels. This analogy may be a little too dramatic, but do you feel like there was no one there to catch you and your head is cracked open on the sidewalk? It sounds like T is there to catch you now. Hope you can summon up the courage to go on Friday. It would be much more healing to go than not to go and bury your feelings, IMO.

I am still learning about all this transference stuff and was wondering if I could ask you a question? Just wondering why you feel as though it has nothing to an early attachment figure? Only share if you want to.

((((((HUGS and a little HOPE)))))))

Liese

Frog,

I wasn't out of time for the last two days. I was out of town!!! Yikes.

Dear Pan, no need to apologize. Your poster was throughoutly helpful and you only came across as caring and honest. I appreacciated that. Thanks again for wanting to hear from me after the session tomorrow. *IF* i decide to go. which i of course know i SHOULD...hmf.

AG- its so nice to see you again! Hope you are feeling better!? Thanks for nomralising my reaction and saying i am couragous for talking about the transference. Objectively i know i`ve done "great" (Lol) by bringing this feelings up, its the right thing to do, yet it still feels like i am in a hole of shame and emberrassment and wanting to shut down (?) Thinking that T cant help me with this. You know? He`s after all the one who CAUSES the transference. So if he`s the "problem" can he also be a part of the sulution? Uh..sorry for rambling on. I know too, i should go back tomorrow. I`m still waiting for T to reply on my latest text...

Liese- oh, your not late at all, your of course more than welcome! thanks so much for your nice questions also. Your analogy fits quite good, that nobody was there to catch me yesterday. Its a little better today though, after hearing back from T. (suprise!) Oh, Liese, the transeference DOES undoubtly connect to my early attachment figures. I am sure AG and meny others here can describe transference in better terms than me (not having the english skills to make much sense of such a complicated topic) better than me. I know i said it was a "sidetrack" talking about the attachment figures, in my first post though. Sorry for the confustion. IYou see, in the session we ended up talking about those figures from my past, so i only "protested" against the theoretical track our conversation turned into, as i interpreted T`s questions that it was easier for him to talk about "then" rather than "here and now" with me. I was upset about that, (of meny reasons that i am not gonna bother you with now) but indeed is the "past-talk" an important factor when trying to understnad the transference. I was just NOT up to that talk again with T this time.

Hi Frog,

Oh go ahead and bother me with all that stuff. But only if you want to. It's so interesting how the T's all deal with the transference stuff. My OldT wanted to deal with it in the past, as in "now I see what your mother did to you." I could understand that on a cognitive level but emotionally, I hated the thought of my mother having done something to me. And, Although, trust me, I'd love to blame my mother for a lot of things but I am trying to grow up.

But also, I just didn't want to accept that all my feelings now in the present were solely being caused by my mother in the past. Because some of my feelings towards OldT were really towards her. And, sorting through that ugly mess, I guess is the hard part. That dual reality.

My new T seems to want me to use him as the vehicle for getting past the transference, if that makes sense. I think his point is that sometimes we just don't know what went wrong in our development. Many emotional things that go wrong are just FELT. Or something went wrong at an age at which we didn't have verbal and/or cognitive skills. And then things just kept going wrong. And our emotional and cognitive skills never developed. Well, I am speaking for myself here only.

Anyway, hope you are feeling better. Let us know if you decide to go tomorrow.

Liese

Froggy

Just a thought

quote:

Do exactly what you would do if you felt most secure."
Meister Eckhart

If you felt most secure froggy, then you would go to your session tomorrow to talk about what feels so important for you.

You can do this



starfish

Oooooh Starfishy- you are a clever (and loverable) one.. its hard to ignore my own choice of quote! hmm..i am still lying in my bed wondering what to do though. Havent heard back from T, but i know its because he hasnt seen my text yet, so i am not freaking out this time. (seriously, i am not!) btw: I know you (eckhart) is right. I know what i should do.(((fishy)))


Liese, thanks for sharing those thoughts and experiences with me. Oh, yes that makes sense, i liked that your T said that he was the viechle for getting past the transference. In fact, i told T something similar in last session;
that when i first started in therapy, i had this deep gut feeling, that the only way i could solve my pattern, my pain, whatever, - was by working with a male T, so that the transeference could develope and worked through. The "veichle" as you put it. T seemed a little suprised (i think?) when i told him this. I also told him, somthing like:"And here i am, 2 years later, and nothing is solved, i am just deeply stuck in my own pattern (transeference)..." And thats what hurts the most, since its like T didnt had any answers nor sulutions to it, but kept saying that it would be solved with time, and kept saying that he wanted to know what i thought and felt about it etc. etc. (ok, looks like i ended up bothered you with this after all!)

Can erotic/paternal or whatever transference really just be TALKED throuhg??? Sorry for being such a downer. I am tired of my own intelectual/theoretical answers.

Hi Frog
FWIW, i don't think transference is just talked through, it is felt, experienced, lived and loved through and TALKED ABOUT. There is a big difference.

We feel these same emotions in other relationships in our lives but things get all muddled up and we end up so conflicted and confused that our feelings are a mess. With a T your feelings are the same mess as always but if your T can keep his balance and stay very still and calm and supportive, you talk about the very confusion and fear that is causing the problem and that is how you heal.

You begin to see yourself a little clearer and what i most loved about my T was that by allowing me to love him i actually got to figure out how i love when i am not doing it simply to get a response, but how i love in my own heart and in my own way. I get the warm fuzzy's just thinking about it.

It was so painful at the time because i was so confused and so ashamed and so embarrassed by my feelings but through his kindness and professionalism my T helped me learn to love much more open heartedly. It is a very rare and precious gift to be able to give to another human being.

Pan

quote:

FWIW, i don't think transference is just talked through, it is felt, experienced, lived and loved through and TALKED ABOUT. There is a big difference.

Pan you just took the words right out of my mouth, only you said it so much better than I ever could. You have to live the experience of the transference (attachment) not just clinically discuss it or discuss it in abstract terms. You have to FEEL it together. To do this you need a T who can accept these feelings and allow you to experience them, while also being there to help you experience them and discuss them. Gosh, this is so hard to articulate. And when I talk about experiencing it together I'm not talking about the T having counter-transference, I mean that he knows and understand what YOU are feeling and experiencing and works with you on it.

Pan... I get the warm fuzzies just reading about your relationship with your T. He sounds so amazing.

What newT says is that the greatest thing about the therapeutic relationship is that it is a relationship where you can discuss what is happening IN the relationship LIVE as it happens. While being involved in the relationship you have the opportunity to take it apart and analyze it and discuss it to better understand how you relate interpersonally.

Froggy... I know you will go to the session because you are a strong woman but also because you have a very good T and it will all work out for the good I am sure. Just be your honest, brave self.

Keep us informed.

Hugs to you
TN

Ooh, dear Pan, Frosty and TN, i am sucking up all your words of wisdom, its all medicine right now, and quite moving. I`ve decided to get up early tomorrow, head towards T`s office and just take it from there. I might run away, or i might be able to go up those stairs and face T. The man who`s become the center of my life..ugh..(he hast replied to my latest text, and he wont do it. But i think he will tomorrow early though. I hope)

I`ll keep you informed. Thanks dear friends,

Hello Frog I’m really sorry you’re feeling so bad about having opened up to T about your feelings for him, and good for you for deciding to at least turn up at the office tomorrow - I admire your courage!

Read your thread earlier and had all these things to say about transference and talking about it, as per your question, and I see both Pan and TN have since said (very well) some of the ideas I had about it in the back of my head. But I’ll add my piece anyway!

Can only speak from my own experience about it, and in my case the transference was negative which for me is a whole lot easier to express than positive feelings for a T (not that I’ve felt many of those in therapy up until current T!) I only really recognized the bad feelings I had towards psychoT as transference half way through my sessions with him and even then they weren’t ALL transference as such - but it was his accepting them without judgement or taking it personally (or so I thought) that allowed me keep expressing them within the safe context of the idea of transference - ie expecting him to realize they were transference and to not take it all too personally (but the feelings were real all the same.)

As Pan and TN have said, it’s actually bringing to session and letting yourself feel the feelings themselves in the moment that allows the real work to happen - allows you to experience first hand in the here and now exactly what’s going on inside you with the object of your feelings right there in the flesh responding to you directly. As TN says with such clarity

quote:

it is a relationship where you can discuss what is happening IN the relationship LIVE as it happens.

What I found was that I was projecting onto my T all these judgements and expectations and criticisms about my feelings that actually came from my head but felt as if they were coming from him, and in recognizing that I was suddenly seeing at times so clearly that who I was feeling these negative feelings about were figures in real world, both from the past and more recently - it was really quite weird - feeling stuff in response to psychoT and at the same time getting this internal sense that actually it wasn’t psychoT sitting there but someone from my past (particularly my father, but other authority figures too).

It was being able to go into the feelings instead of just talking about them that somehow connected me to their source, to the original and subsequent objects that I was ‘really’ feeling angry at. Oh and when I say express them, I was still talking, but I was talking the feelings, rather than talking about them, if that makes sense - for instance I’d say, I’m feeling pretty pissed off because you talk too much, I don’t like the way you keep jumping in as soon as I’ve finished talking without giving me space to reflect on what I’ve been saying, I need the silence to hear my own words (and then he’d completely ignore that and keep talking and I’d get REALLY pissed off and in that moment would recognize wow this is EXACTLY how I felt with other authority figures who totally ignored my wants and needs...)

Lol I got all excited at that point and realized just how transference works and was all set to keep pushing with the feelings because that was going to put me in touch with emotional memories and make connections that I’d never make or truly understand with just talking and thinking. Which made it both ok, safe and permissible to express more and more feelings that normally I’d have kept well and truly controlled.

It wasn’t as if I didn’t feel these things about psychoT himself, just that I felt it was ok to kind of ‘use’ him as the catalyst for anything and everything that I was feeling while in relationship with him, because beneath the here and now experience of his ‘making’ me feel these things, I knew that other important connections would surface. And that allowed me to start understanding the dynamics of my past relationships and things that I needed to address from the past, that were still well and truly alive and screwing up my present relationships. Well I could go on and on about it, it was so mind blowing to experience feelings in the present actually existing because of forgotten or unaware situations in the past - almost like being sent back in time. I’m sure others could explain it much more clearly than me - it’s not like a flashback at all, more like suddenly ‘getting it’...

So ok in my case it was all negative transference, I’m really not sure how something like erotic transference links to the past (that’s a scary thought) but I can guess that positive transference, paternal or whatever, does in some way have direct links to the past and allowing yourself to experience and express them in the here and now with T I believe really will give you emotional insights into yourself and your past that you’d likely never get by just talking about the topic. And though calling it ‘transference’ can seem patronizing and dismissive, actually for me having that label paradoxically made it much easier for me to allow myself to feel what I did feel in response to T, instead of struggling so much with its being unacceptable or wrong or inappropriate.

Well sorry for the long ramble, one day I will learn how to write concise pithy and relevant posts

Frog I so hope that by tomorrow you will feel able to decide one way or the other whether to go to your session, and with luck T will have replied to your last text with something positive and encouraging that will help you with how you’re feeling. Best wishes with whatever you decide.

Sending you big cyber hugs in the meantime (((((((((( Frog )))))))))

LL

Hi again Frog,

reading all these posts and thinking about transference. especially erotic transference. I was thinking that it must happens all the time, that people have erotic transference for others that they don't recognize as erotic transference. they may even marry someone based on transference and not based on who that person really is. and so with your T, if I'm not mistaken, the reason that it is transference is that you don't know who he is at all, really. You don't know what he likes to do in his time off. You don't know if you and he would actually have fun together if you spent time with each other outside of the office. The feelings are REAL, it's just not REAL love. Not in the giving/receiving sense. In this relationship, you are more on the receiving end. And it feels really good. So I'm thinking that you love the way you feel when you are with him in the therapy room. That unconditional love. Gosh, it feels so good, doesn't it? To be accepted just the way we are. Maybe that is the challenge? To learn to give that to ourselves and not even want it from a partner. I don't know. I'm just rambling here.

Good luck tomorrow, with whatever you decide. You are so brave to face this head on. Going back and facing him after your last session could be the best gift you ever give yourself.

BIG HUGS TONIGHT!!!

Liese

Hi again Frog,
Thanks for asking, I am feeling better although I am still not quite up to full speed. The asthma is still getting under control, so I'm trying to be careful so I don't relapse. But I am back at work and up and about which is a considerable improvement over last week.

quote:

Thinking that T cant help me with this. You know? He`s after all the one who CAUSES the transference. So if he`s the "problem" can he also be a part of the sulution?

You've gotten great input from other people but if you don't mind, I'll still add my two bits.

I actually think there are two ways of looking at transference. There was Freud's original formulation which was that since the P remained a blank slate (which no one really did in practice honestly) the patient must be "transferring" feelings from other relationships. I think there was some truth in how he saw it, but more recent developments in brain development and attachment theory propose that all of your experiences from birth are retained in your implicit memory and form a model or schema for what you expect from relationships. So it's not so much your feelings your transferring as it's your expectations and deep unconscious beliefs about yourself and how relationships work. And that is the key to why your therapist can help even though it looks like they're the problem. I loved what Pan and TN said about experiencing it and being in the moment. Being open with your therapist about your feelings in the here and now allows them to see your unconscious patterns of relating and bring them to your attention. Once you become conscious of your beliefs and behaviors then you can take steps to change them. Because the relationship is about your needs, your therapist is more able to hear all of your feelings without getting defensive. This provides you an ability to express all of your feelings (for a lot of us, it was the first time in our life we felt able to do this) and be able to examine them and what they mean without the water getting muddied by the other person's needs and agenda.

My T often talked about the paradox at the heart of being human in that each of us is alone but we can only come to know ourselves in relationship. So talking to your therapist about any and all of your feelings is your opportunity to see yourself with clarity and understanding.

I do want you to know that I experienced pretty intense parental and erotic feelings for my therapist which made sense considering I was sexually abused by my dad (talk about your eeeww factor) and bringing all that into the room was how I healed. Because as I let myself feel the feelings and express them, I learned about my beliefs which led me back to how they were formed.

My T really didn't like using the term transference because he totally believed and I agreed, that the feelings are very real. They're not made up, you're really feeling them. But the intensity with which you feel them is often fed from our pasts which is what makes them worth looking at.

I know you feel embarrassed and vulnerable, I pretty much got terrified every time I talked to my T about my feelings (should have seen the meltdown the first time I talked to him about wanting to have sex with him ) but you're doing the right thing. And your T sounds like he is comfortable with it. Go see him tomorrow, just so you can experience that you didn't do anything wrong by expressing how you honestly feel. I know this is confusing, and hard and painful, but it's also really good work.

(((Froggy)))

AG

Dear froggy, won't be around for a few days, but thinking of you and look forward to reading how today went. Strengthening hugs,

starryfish

I did went to see T and we had an intens session. I`ll come back and try to post about the session later, i just have to process it all first. I am exhausted now. Just wanted to let you guys know i read your replies this morning- and wanted to express my heartfelt thank you. Speak to you later!

(((((LL, Liese, AG, starfishy,)))))) -and all of you that have offored your wonderfull support here - THANK YOU! If i had 2 more hours i would reply to each of you. I thin its amazing that the "old" - and frequently mentioned topic- (on this forum anyway) transference- still seems to be a such a relevant issue for meny of us, - hence to all the great explanations here. Thanks for sharing from your own experiences as well. That`s always appreacciated. I am not sure i would end up going to the session, if you guys hadnt gently pushed me in that direction. For that i am grateful.

I had to FORCE myself to walk down to T`s office. The first minuts was awful. When i got up the stairs and saw T sitting in his chair, calm and nice, i immidiatly wanted to turn and run away. Instead i kept standing outside the room, and almost yelled at him "i dont wanna be here!! i dont wanna talk to you!" (lol, then i almost started to CRY, which is highly unusual for me) Of course i went inside anyway, took my seat and *bang* TALKED!
T and i started immidialty on the transfrence topic, my feelings for him. The whole session was an intens analysis, kind of "detective" work, a review of my life in 55 minutes, looked at the lines and patterns, connections and lots of good moments. Some serious archaeology work!! I protested a bit when T asked those parody questions and also teased (?) him a little for this, - he was great about that, (he knew he sounded like an parody of Freud) and reassured me that it wasnt his intention to give an "easy" archaelogy explanation of my feelings for him, nor did he used the word "transference" or any other theoretical terms, (he doesnt like using them) He was very concerned, and he didnt want to reduce my feelings, by making connections to my past. He worried a little if i was offanded by his questions today or last session, but i wasnt. (or was i?) So i had to convince him that i liked this work and all this questioning. When he repeated my own words, saying "you are in love with me.." i said yes, but i also added the much harder stuff, that i actually do sometimes hate him as well. Gosh- he wasnt at all upset for that either. Later on he asked calm: "why do you hate me?" (there and then all the hate and anger feeling dissappeared btw!) and i told him that it felt like i hatet him, for being so unattainable, having all the power and making me feel so vulnerable (and for 'making' me love him). Lots of interesting stuff came out of that.

I did push him a little, asking him how this transference could be worked through, and even asked him if he thought HE could help me "solve" this transference. Which he said yes to, but with my help. We did ten minuts over time (like last session, which NEVER happens, so i assume T was also a bit caught up in this topic, but i am not sure if i like it though.. he`s usually very strikt witht he timeframe. 45 minuts. hm.)
I have like 50 questions for him now, so it seems hard to wait for my session monday. I am also worried that i deep down actually dont WANT to "solve" this transference, that i want to keep being in this transference, the love/hate flip flop, since after all its familiar. I am not even sure if i want the relation to change, you know? Next time i have to tell T that.

Thanks for listening to all this stuff.

Hi Froggy, I'm so glad you went to your session and that your T handled it so well. I understand after these kinds of sessions it takes a while to process all that was said. And it's quite understandable that your feelings switch back and forth about your T. You love him you are angry at him. I don't believe you ever hate him but you do get angry at the limitations of the relationship. That is the hard part. But that is also what provides the space for you to feel the things you have lost and to grieve them and come to some kind of acceptance of how things were and how they can be now. What we lost in childhood or what we longed for in childhood but didn't receive we can only receive now in an approximate way as adults in therapy. So of course there are times you will be upset with T.

I am glad he also addressed your "here and now" feelings and didn't reduce everything to your past history. This is a good thing.

Did you ever ask him if he got your texts and why he did not respond? I was just curious.

I'm glad we all helped you with this session and that it turned out better than you thought it would. You have done a lot of really hard work and you are very brave, Froggy. Good for you!

Hugs
TN

Hi Frog,

So glad things turned out well. You were so brave to go and face him. It had to be very difficult. I almost choked when I read that he said, "so you are in love with me". It sounds like you handled it with composure and were really ready to have the conversation. I would have died if my T said that. Although he did say something similar but not exactly in THOSE words. And I did nearly die of embarrassment but got through it somehow. I wonder, like you do, if I'm just staying hoping a relationship will work out in the end. But on the other hand, I know I'm looking for real change in my life and I "think" I accept the limitations of the relationship. So as long as he'll continue to see me, I'll keep going and see what I can learn.

I would love to hear about the lines and the patterns and what you learned out of the session - only if you want to share. I'm not sure my T and I have gotten to any lines and patterns yet and I am getting frustrated. Or maybe we have and I'm just not recognizing it. And, of course, I'd love to hear about the 50 questions, but again only if you want to share.

HUGS

Liese

Frog,

I a glad that your session with T went so well. I thought it was so interesting what wrote about not wanting to come out of the transference. Can you say more about that, what you mean, etc.?