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Hi everyone,

I'm back from Nova Scotia ... I was able to read some of your posts on my iphone but not able to reply ..... I'm glad to see that MH is getting somewhere with his therapist ... at least establishing some contact sounds good ..and .. and MH, what is it about therapy that turns us into stalkers? I've driven by my T's house ... and MH ... I also want to add that ... i know it hurts but i think it's making progress that you're going back in light of the fact that you don't think she holds you in the same high esteem she used to ... because isn't that what intimacy is all about? that we can let our guards down? and expose the stuff underneath? and ultimately, what will lead to recovery? that you'll be able to do this and not worry so much about being rejected? that we can stop trying to control what other people think of us??? I don't know ... that's what I read on the internet ....

But I also want to add that it concerns me that your T is revealing so much to you about another client and disclosing all that info .... and has been for a while ..... my T tells me very little about his life and from what I understand, that's the way it's supposed to be ....

As far as the jealousy is concerned, sounds like you have some unresolved sibling rivalry issues ..... do you have siblings?

There are a lot of bad therapists out there .... so I think I agree with Jones ... maybe your alarm bells are going off for a reason ... and there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion ... I've done it ....

As far as my trip to Nova Scotia is concerned, I was fending off panic attacks the entire weekend ... we went there because my husband's father died a couple of weeks ago and his wife held a memorial service for him .....

My Dad died four years ago but I am having a hard time believing that this is the reason for the panic attacks ....

Loss is hard .... but ?????

Anyway, when I started having panic attacks with my old T, whom I left, - the night I almost had my first panic attack was when she double booked me .... after I left, she called me on my cell, told me to have a glass a wine and come back in 45 minutes .... I did go back in 45 minutes ... although I had a cup of tea .... and she asked me why I was so upset .... I told her it was the need/pain thing ..... that was all I could really come up with .... really needing someone but associating that with pain ....

And she insisted that I tell her the story that the need/pain thing was associated with ... and I did ... I told her about this date/rape thing that happened about 27 years ago now .... and she insisted that this is what is causing all of my current problems ....

I could never reestablish trust with her after that, so I left her and went to my current T, with whom I've been for 3 years ....

Anyway .... I just had the, "you don't care about me" conversation with him ..... last week, right before I left for Nova Scotia .... and his response was, of course I care because that's the kind of person I am .... and then he cut our session short by three minutes ....

And now, here I am thinking about well, yeah, maybe is knows how to "act" caring but how do I know he cares about me????

I can't help but wonder if the panic attacks are related to the date/rape thing .... I already told the other therapist all about it .... and I told her that I dealt with it ... and she told me I hadn't .... I haven't talked about it at all with the new T .... although I'm thinking that maybe that's where this you don't care about me stuff is going .... that I'm going to have to talk about it with him ...

My problem now is ... it was so long ago ... I remember the physical pain ... I remember feeling his anger .... I remember crying alone in bed at night for a year .... but I don't know if I can really recall it in a way that will be meaningful or healing ..... Does anyone know what I mean? I can give him the details ... and tell him it was awful .... and ask him if it's causing my current problems .... but .... it was just so long ago ....

Although I do have to say that underneath the panic attacks were an awful lot of pain ... in fact, it almost felt like that's what was causing the panic attacks ... like the pain wants to come up, but I'm trying really hard to hold it down .....

So, what's the vote? Are the panic attacks caused by my father's death? Or by the date rape?
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I would humbly guess that the panic attacks are about any hidden pain - so that would include your dad's death and the date rape. Both.
I think you suffered a lot but in silence about the date rape and it would be lovely to tell a caring kind T about how you felt and be heard. That would be a step forward in healing it.
I also want to say that all that you wrote about 'Does he really care or is he just " know how to 'act' caring" is a big issue for me too in therapy. I think we can sense if people are pretending or even well meaning and WANT to care but actually are tired or distracted. But sometimes too we push away caring, because it hurts us to feel cared for. so good luck with working on this. I find it a very difficult one to work out.
sending you much sympathy after your week of panic attacks. I see my soon to be ex T today and not looking forward to it at all, all the votes are against her, everyone I consult wants me to leave her and as I have not found another T yet, I am still limping along with her. Frowner anyway enough of me, hope you have picked up since you came home.
quote:
My Dad died four years ago but I am having a hard time believing that this is the reason for the panic attacks ....

Loss is hard .... but ?????

And she insisted that I tell her the story that the need/pain thing was associated with ... and I did ... I told her about this date/rape thing that happened about 27 years ago now .... and she insisted that this is what is causing all of my current problems ....


Loss is hard .... but ?????
sounds like you are being really hard on yourself almost like you should have dealt with it...and maybe this isn't the reason for your panic attacks but going to this funeral may have brought up some painful memories from losing your dad which would be totally understandable.

I am really glad that you no longer work with this T as only you know what you are going through and it sounds like she was telling you what the issue was...I could be wrong? I don't personally suffer from panic attacks but from what I know of them they come on when there is a loss of control and they can be triggered by certain events which you are not conscious of.

quote:
I haven't talked about it at all with the new T .... although I'm thinking that maybe that's where this you don't care about me stuff is going .... that I'm going to have to talk about it with him ...


It sounds like you need to feel his care before you are willing to share this traumatic experience with him and I am sorry to hear that you fear he may be only acting as if he does care. Is that something you would be able to bring up with him?

quote:
My problem now is ... it was so long ago ... I remember the physical pain ... I remember feeling his anger .... I remember crying alone in bed at night for a year .... but I don't know if I can really recall it in a way that will be meaningful or healing ..... Does anyone know what I mean? I can give him the details ... and tell him it was awful .... and ask him if it's causing my current problems .... but .... it was just so long ago ....


I agree with Sheychen on this one...even though you say it happened so long ago the painful feelings are still there so talking it through with someone you trust and who cares can be validating in itself...just having someone who can understand what you went through can be extremley healing.

Sending you hugs
Butterfly
Hi, Liese, I just wanted to welcome you to the forum. I used to post a lot, but haven't been quite as much lately, so I just wanted to say hi to you finally, if I haven't already...

Gosh, panic attacks can be really scary I've heard. I used to have them when I was pregnant...I think that's what they were anyway. It makes sense to me that you would be having them because of any number of unresolved emotioanl issues...I'm not too sure about pinpoint and try, make it about just one issue, though. There may be a lot more to it than just one traumatic "event." It could be from several, or even stuff you aren't consciously aware of, maybe. In any even either one of the terrible things you describe, would be enough to warrant having panic attacks over, imo. But I'm no T, so I don't know for sure of course, about the nature of these things-..just my own thoughts.
I just wanted to offer a couple of thoughts to you about your experiences on another thread, not feeling "cared about" by your T. I have gone through much the same for a long time now, and I'm starting to come out on the other side of it, where I really do believe my T cares, and can even "feel it" from time to time. But I used to be just where you are...distrusting his care, and his protestations of care. We talked and talked about it, and I sent him about ten million emails about it. Roll Eyes Detailing all the reasons why it was so clear to me that he doesn't care, and something you said especially resonated...that he just "know how" to act like he cares. This is coming from a basically (and understandable) distrustful position, I think. My T may not care *as much* as I certainly do wish he was able to...yet he really does care....and his care is significant. Yes, I deal also with the sessions where it all feels very artificial and unreal...almost as if we are play-acting...and while that is disturbing, I think that is because of the boundaries, that keep the relationship very "therapisty." Which it really has to be, or you wouldn't have the freedom to open up. In fact, I have come to realize (for myself) that this professional stance itself, is an expression of care, because it is only in such a stance that I will be able to tell him everything and trust him. If it got too friendly, though less painful, I wouldn't be able to trust him anymore. I really hope, that I'm not just singing myself a pipedream...but I think they do care. I just cannot allow myself to beleive that my T or yours, would lie about this basic thing. If it was a lie, it would be so devastating, on so many levels. And surely, they know this, and so wouldn't lie about it? When it becomes about them getting their emotional needs met somehow, through us- I mean, them having to feel good at the expense of our ability to tell them our current experience of them- then I think care is leaving the room, at that point. Not to say that some mistakes can't be made, here and there, that can't be recovered from- but as a general rule. Does any of this make sense? Anyway, if not, that is fine, but I just wanted to chime in because I relate so strongly to what you are experiencing in T.
I also wanted to say- keep on posting! I noticed you were feeling understandably hurt in the other thread. Sometimes it is quieter around here than others, and you may not get many responses, and other times, you may find that you get a lot all at once...it's just the way it goes, and has nothing to do with you being "wrong" in any way. Far from it. Your posts are great. It's nice to have you here.

BB
Hi BB,

Thanks for the post ... I'm having a bad day ... I wrote to T before I left for Nova Scotia and asked him to call me today and as yet, still haven't heard from him .... 2 p.m. here .... He usually makes his calls at 10 a.m. but he might have had to teach this morning ... So what if he doesn't call?? Then I can't go back, right? Would you? My head is spinning and I feel like throwing up .... I can't believe I'm wasting my time worrying about it but I can't seem to shake it .....

By the way, it's the first time I've written him a letter ... i don't have his email address or his cell phone number .... When I need to talk to him, I have to call his secretary ... and I'm finding that I'm increasingly uncomfortable with that ... that it's hard enough to expose my pain and neediness to him but to expose my neediness to her as well????? That's just asking too much of me right now ... so that's why I wrote the letter so I could bypass her ... but as yet ... no phone call .....YIKES!
Of course you can go back...even if he doesn't call. Absolutely no worries there. Therapy is about you..I'm sure he is just busy/forgetful. My T is a sweetie, but he is very busy and very forgetful, which hurts a lot sometimes, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care about me. Same with yours...I'm sure. I know how painful it is to expose that neediness...and trust me when I say, it really is no easier on email- it's just what you get used to. My T is overseas, we meet on computer, so I can't just phone his office up. Sometimes I wonder what *that* would be like! Eeker Email is kinda bad in lots of ways, trust me on that. It has it's good points but it gets kinda desperate for me to be "able" to but never know if I "should" and how to control it, and so on. Also, it is almost "too easy" and I can use it too much as an avoidance measure. Count yourself blessed if that's not an option...in a way.

Of course you are worried, that someone you rely on right now for ability to feel good, has not returned your call...don't worry. I'm sure he will call, or, you will discuss all of this next time you meet. In the meantime, try to do something that maybe, can take your mind off of it, just as a survival thing. (I know, I know, much easier said than done, right?) Try maybe journaling all your thoughts and especially feelings if possible (if you can connect to them) about what is happening, in another letter to your T- no holds barred...with at least the intent to share it with him in person- that helps me sometimes. And then watch a tv program or something you can just reward yourself with after, maybe. Something that works for you. I know the agony of waiting for a reply...it IS very, very difficult. But, sometimes, it helps me to think I *must* be learning something I need to learn from all of this anxious agonized waiting. I just have to think there must be a good outcome to so much pain. For you, too. You can get through this! Don't worry about the secretary. I'm sure she is very used to getting lots and lots of phone calls and thinks nothing of it. So go ahead an give another call if you can work up the courage. Be kind to yourself, Liese.

BB
Thanks for the reply BB ... you are so sweet .... But seriously, you would go back? If he didn't call you? Gosh ... I'm not sure I can do that ... I know he is very busy .... but .... to not call in the face of a request .... I'm not sure I could get past that right now ....

You are right that he has rigid boundaries and I always liked that .... and I've never tested them before ... just went every other week like a dutiful patient ... but lately I feel as though I am going through something and I don't know what it is .... but I need to see him more often so I have been calling for appointments during my off-week and once to speak to him during an off-week .... all out of my comfort zone .... but forcing myself to do it when I feel bad ....

it's 7 p.m. here and he still hasn't called ... I don't know what time he quits ... who knows, maybe an emergency came up ... this therapy stuff is hard .... Frowner It would be nice to come out on the other side of it all ....
Hi Liese... maybe he didn't get your letter? Could it be sitting on the secretary's desk? And I agree, you just go back and you ask him about it. Talk it over. I'm sure he has a good reason.

I think you are starting to feel really attached to him and your needing to be near him is called "proximity seeking" behavior. He is your secure base and your attachment figure and when you are feeling fearful or stressed you have a biological drive to be near him. This is a natural drive which humans have in order that we survive as babies. We are driven to our caregivers.

I also wanted to address the panic attacks. There is usually a trauma, even a long ago trauma, attached to anxiety and panic. I know about the date rape and your Dad's death and so I'm thinking that when these traumas start to bubble up inside of you the panic is a way to distract yourself (unconsciously) from them. I do worry about your Ts ability to handle trauma work if he is basically a CBT therapist and not psychodynamic. I would question him about this. You need to talk about your past trauma but with someone who can handle it and help you process it.

Was there any trauma attached to your Dad's death? Did you and he have a good relationship? Were you able to grieve him in a normal way? Just wondering what this recent funeral has stirred up for you.

Yes, therapy is really hard and only the brave will stick with it. I think you have the strength to keep at it.

Take care,
TN
quote:
I think you are starting to feel really attached to him and your needing to be near him is called "proximity seeking" behavior. He is your secure base and your attachment figure and when you are feeling fearful or stressed you have a biological drive to be near him. This is a natural drive which humans have in order that we survive as babies. We are driven to our caregivers.



Wow, that is why it is SO HARD for me to walk away from my C.

OUCH.
TN ... thanks for your insight ... I just had to look up proximity seeking behavior and I realized that I am my husband's attachment figure ... He can really drive me crazy with what i see as excessive neediness and demands for my attention .... I wonder how it all plays out in relationships with our spouses? My husband just seems to need me and he can go out and function in the world as long as he thinks I am steady as a rock .... I'm not sure I have an attachment figure ....I think mine be more of one of the anxious styles ... I'll have to give it some thought .... but maybe that's why I feel so much anxiety about my therapist .... my mother is a nice woman (maybe) ... but ..... I remember one time being at a function with some cousins about 16 years ago .... and my cousin was about 5 and hiding under the table and maybe clinging to his mom because he was so shy ... and my mother commented to me, "I would never tolerate that" ... and I thought ... oh god, how horrible ... she would push that poor boy away from her ... and perhaps she pushed me away ... and I just don't remember ....

Oh gosh, I am sure my T would have a reason ... like he forgot or he didn't get the letter ... I'm just not sure i would really believe him .... it's so horrible not to trust ....

thanks for all the info on the panic disorders and trauma stuff ... it was horrible and i thought i handled on my own .... but maybe not .... The memorial service was brutal ... and I wasn't that close with my father-in=law ... we saw him only a couple times a year .... and he was a really troubled man, although charming, so I wasn't really sure what triggered all that stuff for me ....

My Dad was the only one in my house that I felt safe with although as an adult, I can see the scope of his mental health problems, including episodes of depression, ... I think I desperately tried to connect with him but he was unavailable emotionally ....I do know that I was desperately unhappy growing up in the home i grew up in .(although my parents always said I was the only one who was unhappy)... and I do remember at some point disconnecting with him emotionally .... before I moved out of the house .... I always loved and adored him .... but ... have kind of felt a little freer since he died .... there have been some good changes in my life since he died ... good changes for me .... as much as I bitch and moan in this forum, I feel more hope in my life than i have in a long time .... and maybe even the capacity to enjoy the rest of my years and let go of all the CRAP that plagues me ... wouldn't that be beautiful?????

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