Dear incognito,

I am not the one you seek probably, as i dont even have children. Yet, i really wanted to come out and say that, from what you wrote about your daughter and how you handeled the conversation,- I SEE CLEARLY A GREAT CARING MOTHER!The way you "met" and answered your daughter was only good. I think; (and i read it somewhere) -The best thing a mother can offor teir children, is to love their father and their children. And no sadness can take that love away. I am willing to bet, that your daugther is greatful and, if not just now, soon she also will see and appreaciate your gift.(love) Your sadness will maybe have an inpact on your daughter- but it seems from what you have written, that you handle to tace care of your children, despite your sadness. My mother was also drepressed, and as a child i could sense that, yet i wouldnt feel that her sadness was "mine". And i have never felt that i was demaged because of her illness back then. She would tell me things like you did, and talk honestly to me about feelings, and shelter me from some. Just like you seem to do.

Sorry if this wasnt helpful, - i am sorry that you are struggling. Remember that your depression (if it is?) *makes* you think the worst of yourself, a la that you are somehow "guilty" for passing on this sadness to your daughter. That must be a terrible burden to bear, thinking that, fearing that. If you can, keep talking to your T about this, i am sure T would be able to give you some more constructive and good advices about this very case.
Anyway- I too, hope AG and others will appear here and offor a "mothers-perspective". I am still too young btw.
Hang in there.

Hi, incognito...it's nice to see you...although I am sorry about how bad you are feeling. I can really relate. It is not easy to be a parent, to have to take care and model positivity to our kids when you feel like crap or are dealing with transference feelings in therapy, all that awful abuse from childhood, it can really be impossible at times, can't it? And there is no worse guilt that we can suffer, than feeling a bad parent. It's an awful feeling...I think this is why I avoid a lot of connection and one-on-one with my kids. I take care of their needs, and I do play with them a bit, and do some stuff with them, but I think my big fear is that I almost damage them more by being with them when I am feeling bad, which is usually. But, the love you have for your kids shines through your post...and they can feel and connect with that love, even if you can't. Kids are like little love vacuum cleaners...where it is available to them they will zero in on it and suck it all up without you even have to know about it or feel it yourself! So, that you cared to apologize to your daughter for the blowup, which is something *very* good, and *hear* her negative feelings and remain calm through them...is a gift of love to her, and she will benefit tremendously from that. Now you are left with the feelings of guilt about her negative feelings about life in that moment. But, we all have those feelings. I feel terrible when my kids feel bad, and especially when they feel bad in ways that I interiorly recognize as something that they probably absorbed from me. It's a terrible feeling. But, it is just *life,* in this imperfect world we live in- as you wisely said to your daughter, that we have good and bad feelings that come and go, and that is just the way it is, and it doesn't make life not worth living that we have these very negative feelings sometimes. (Or all the time, even) That seems like the perfect advice to me, and has even helped me, so thank you. I know you are not in a place to take this in and believe it, because neither am I, but I just want to tell you that you sound like a wonderful, loving, and caring parent. We all lose our temper with our kids, whether if we want to or not- but the ability to sincerely apologize to them, and then accept their feelings about it- is what will heal and help...

I hope this helps a little bit...I've been really hoping that someone would start a thread about parenting, because I can use all the help I can get in this area.

quote:

I don't know if there is any point to therapy because it seems to uncover how awful I feel, how much I hate myself, and how much I've screwed up my life and my kids. I don't know what to do.

Oh, boy, can I relate to this. Like therapy just helps you to fully realize and experience just how crappy you really do feel most of the time? I'm in the middle of this, too, and I don't knwo the answer, except that for me it has helped me to reach the point where I simply have no choice except to beg for and receive support, when it is available. That is the only benefit that I can see from uncovering all these bad feelings.

I can also sympathise with the terrible feelings that come up when your kids sound just like you, in "the worst possible way." But it kind of makes me realize when my little girl will say negative things, how valuable her little life is...even though she feels that way at times...and that must mean that mine is valuable too, and there IS a purpose to our being here, and it's not as hopeless as my feelings tell me it is.

I'm sorry for the pain you are in, though incognito...it is no easy to feel this way. I hope you will continue to reach out here for support, and elsewhere in your life, too, from those who can give it. That seems to be the hardest lesson, for me, to learn.

hug,

BB

oops crossposted with Frog- but I agree with everything what she said, too!

quote:

I can also sympathise with the terrible feelings that come up when your kids sound just like you, in "the worst possible way." But it kind of makes me realize when my little girl will say negative things, how valuable her little life is...even though she feels that way at times...and that must mean that mine is valuable too, and there IS a purpose to our being here, and it's not as hopeless as my feelings tell me it is.

Dear Incognito,

I feel a lot for you in this and I really like what BB says above. I also want to say (as a woman who struggles, daughter of a mother who struggles, who is the daughter of a mother who struggled...) that any burden of responsibility you feel for this is perhaps not so much personal but existential - the poet Philip Larkin wrote "they fuck you up, your mum and dad, / they may not mean to but they do...". I'm not saying we can't change the way we are or the way we parent, but having compassion for ourselves as flawed humans, who have each received this terrible/wonderful legacy of humanity, and the particular character of our particular family legacies, seems like a vital step. It seems like the only possible foundation for being allies amid the pain of being alive. Compassion, love, listening, companionship, comfort... I hear all of that in your story of your daughter actually trusting you with her feelings and you hearing her.

I first learned this alliance was possible by watching one of my closest friends parent his daughter through years of his terrible, suicidally-oriented depression. He protected her from the hardest awarenesses of that as best he could, and just loved her, listened to her, made that alliance. He is now happy and healthy and so is she. They survived the surviving, largely, I think, through doing it together, forming the trust I see you forming here just by doing what you can - loving and listening and sharing what is ok to share.

Wishing you well with it.

Jones

incognito ~

what I see is not a failure at parenting, but an amazing mom who handled really tough stuff really well.

I'm not a parent, but I have parents and I work with a lot of "at risk" kids, and kids form all walks of life.

quote:

From about Oct.1-Nov15 I was struggling a lot with my relationship with my T, did he like me, did it matter, could I keep doing therapy. I've been withdrawn from my family at times and in my own head. Last monday my 12 year old daughter had an emotional meltdown. It started about an activity that she didn't want to do and I lost my temper badly. After a short calm down, I went to apologize for my outburst and she responded by telling me that she didn't want to live, she saw no point, she didn't ask to be born, she just wanted to sit in bed and die. I remained calm, asked her how long she felt that way, if she always felt that way. I told her the truth I've learned through the last 2 years of therapy that life is hard, it frequently sucks, that there is no easy way and it requires work and feelings of happiness or sadness or anything come and go. She even went so far as to ask me if I thought my life was worth it, was there enough good in it? I told her there was and I loved her and her siblings and dad. She knows I see and T, am sad, but she doesn't know about my abusive childhood history.

life does suck. no parents are perfect either. you lost your temper, as just about every parent seems to do sooner or later in one way or another - and you had the courage and strength to know it and apoligize for it! So many parents never do that... never...

Just because your daughter is struggling - that isn't nessecarily a reflection of your skills as a parent. How do I explain this? My father, when I started to struggle, kept trying to fix me and took it so personally, it consumed him. And our relationship. And he left my life. Said it was too painful to know I was hurting and not be able to do anything about it. (In that case, there were a lot of other issues too - but that was a huge one.)

I can't imagine what it is like to have a daughter who says she doesn't want to live. I have worked with kids who have been suicidal around your daughter's age. Open dialougue with their parents was something I longed for each of them. In the majority of cases, it was severely lacking. The fact that you have such a dialogue with your daughter is HUGE. You are a good parent - you sayed calm, talked it through... and even were real about how your pain and struggle has showed you life is worth it. That sends a huge message to any child. She likely knows it's real.

And it had to be very triggering for you. I probably would be having a lot of the same thoughts and doubts.

But from the outside, I don't see anything about this that shows anything about failing as parenting. At all. Again, not a parent myself, but I have worked with a lot of kids - and a lot of parents - some good, some awful, and many across the spectrum.

Let's pretend you aren't doing the best job - and I think you are doing a good job. But even if you were not, I have seen many kids thrive in spite of not great (and even downright awful) parenting.

I don't know if any of this is of any reassurance or comfort to you - if any of it adds to your pain or is totally off the mark, please ignore.

But I won't take back one thing - you are a really good parent. Just to have the conversation... that's not easy. That's huge. Kids don't come with instruction manuals. But it's clear you love your daughter and you are a good parent, AND you are despite your own battles, which I personally think are probably going to help you be an even better parent over the long run. I see that happening in what happened here. Many parents would just yell or ignore their kids expressing such pain and questions...

you are a good mom.

just wanted to say that most of all.

~jane

Hi Incognito,

I just wanted to weigh in here. I have four kids. And I have a girl, age 11. She always has been very strong-willed and threatened to run awy when she was little. The problem for me was that I wasn't providing a strong enough leadership role in the house and she took over as the leader ... not a good thing for a kid. Anyway, it's taken a lot of hard work to straighten her out and when she doesn't get her way, she still has tantrums but it's definitely getting better. I have to have her under control before she hits the teen years.

I tell you all this because she has been very adept at spotting my weaknesses. And my feelings about myself, about my parenting. I used to be on the lookout for all the bad things I felt as a kid and still do .. and I read more into their states of mind often. I don't know if this is coming across as coherent but maybe she threw that out to hurt you and because of the way you feel in general, you took it in a way she didn't mean. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of what she said. And the best thing for you is to continue to work with your T .....

I told my T I didn't want to live but have made a commitment to myself because I know it would devastate my kids. And my T took the time to let me know that it really would devastate them. So keep going, keep trying. There are a lot of people out there parenting who aren't in therapy and should be. You're trying and you will get there .... and yes there is hope for you and your children. There's always hope!

Hi Incognito,
I am sorry, there is nothing more excruiating than the belief that we are harming our children. Because of what we received as children, I think many of us (I KNOW I did) made a vow a long time ago that we would do better with our kids. But we are SO terrified of being our parents and hurting our children, that we cannot see how much better we are doing than they did. Please believe me that this is an area I have felt deep, deep pain over. Most of the times I experienced suicidal ideation was around feeling like I was failing or damaging my kids. Your anguish is very real and really resonated with me. (I'm sorry it has taken so long to reply, the day has been busy with work and the upcoming holiday.)

To answer you're question, do my kids ever sound like I do? Yes, yes and a million times yes. I always joked when raising them that I was saving for therapy or college, whatever came first. It was therapy for both of my daughters. I struggled so very much in this area but I have made my peace with it. And I'm going to explain why.

Although I do want to say first, that I totally agree with the other responses you've gotten, you were wholly available to your daughter and you are obviously a loving mother. I've never met a bad mother who agnoized over her parenting, do you know that? It's only the good ones who question their worthiness because they understand the weight of responsiblity they carry as someone's parent.

We found out the day after my MIL died that my older daughter, who was 15 at the time, was cutting. She has always been an intensely sensitive soul and had so much difficulty knowing what to do with her feelings that she turned to SI. When this came out I was just learning in therapy just how very shut down I was and how far away from my feelings I strove to stay. How do you teach emotional regulation to a child if you don't have it yourself. She struggled with depression and has pretty intense self-esteem problems and has spent some time in therapy. She also went through what was almost crippling anxiety about leaving home and heading off to school. Her freshman year was a difficult passage which included sobbing phone calls sometimes several times a day, and even at one point her calling home because she was starting to think about suicide. I had to come to grips with the fact that I had a disorganized attachment style and seemed to have passed on at least the anxious part. I am also convinced that especially when the children were young, I was dissassociated more than I realized and have often wondered how emotionally available or unavailable I was.

I spent a LOT of sessions discussing this with my T (and my husband and I joke but our last year of couples' counseling wasn't, it was parenting counseling. Our T has a real gift with adolescents and did an awesome job of helping us sort our stuff so that we were there for our daughter). But here's the thing. I started therapy when my children were quite small, probably around 4 and 2 and have been in therapy for most of their lives. I have no doubt that my stuff has affected them and in some ways it's been damaging. But I have also had to make my peace with the fact that I have always tried to do my best, and I have worked hard their whole lives to heal. I have broken the chain of abuse, It's not a high standard, but I have never beaten my children, sexually abused them and I have striven to respect them as people, as their own selves. None of which I had. My older sister was a real encouragement to me as I raised my children (she's close with both of them) because one thing she eventually grappled with in her therapy was that she made a promise to herself as a child that she would never have children because she wouldn't risk hurting them the way she had been hurt. She has always told me how courageous I was to have them (I usually responded, especially during the teen year, or stupid! And btw, I think it was Monte (hi Monte good to see you!) do NOT discount puberty. It's a form of accepted insanity and makes for some interesting times. I actually found 11 - 13 to be the roughest years. All those hormones!)

The truth is that who a person is, how they feel and how they behave is a result of an intricate interaction of their genetic heritage, environment, parents, friends, and life experiences. It is utterly impossible to pick that apart and be able to point to any single trait or problem and say "THERE, that's what I'm responsible for." It probably helps me that my daughters have very different personalities,

So here is how I finally made my peace with it. The past is the past, I cannot go back and change what I did. I am human and of course I failed my kids at times, EVERY parent does. As well as lose their temper. Incognito, please trust me that if Mother Theresa had had children, even she would have occasionally lost her temper. But I worked hard to heal and be the best mother I could be. I could NOT do more than that. No one can. But most importantly, excoriating myself and beating myself up for what a horrible mother I am DOES MY CHILDREN NO GOOD. I had to stop making it about me and my failures and understand that I could only go forward and do the best I could now with what I knew. So I used what I was learning in therapy to stay one step ahead of my daughter. And I had the distinct advantage of very clearly understanding how she felt from the inside out. Her problem were NOT a mystery to me. I passed on my own healing as it became available. I may have injured her, but I also helped her get through it. My T taught me there was nothing that we couldn't get through. And he was right. As long as there is humility and a willingness to hear our children, so much can be forgiven. They just want to know they matter.

You also have to realize that it's true for everyone, not just parents' with trauma histories, that there are times they're available and times they're not so available. It's actually an important lesson for our kids that we can't be available every minute but that we'll always come back. And yes, I do believe its possible to raise kids that will thrive. We just can't expect them to be problem-free, unfortunately, they are as human as we are. I can honestly tell you that my family is not perfect, actually we're kind of weird if truth be told, but we work. We love each other, and we're there for each other. And I am delighted to say that I have a 17 and 19 year old who are very open, talk to me about most everything and want to spend time with me in the kind of relationship I have never been able to have as my mother.

You're a good mother Incognito, it shines through and its obvious to everyone else but you. I'll make you a deal, I'll believe you're a horrible mother who has done something horrible to her children if you'll believe that about me. Because there is no difference between us.

I hope that helps somewhat. Please feel free to ask more questions if there's something you wanted clarified or some aspect I didn't address.

And btw, some of this has to be their dad's fault you know.

((((((((Incognito))))))))))))

AG

quote:

And btw, some of this has to be their dad's fault

AG, this cracked me up. I often complain that I would have preferred to be the Dad because everyone agrees it is the mother's fault.

I had another conversation with my daughter about her school homework and how she felt and I learned more about what she is worried about. It was difficult and at times I was frustrated but I felt like we connected. I told her that I was always willing to talk with her. Then I went to my T tonight and discussed how different things are for my daughter right now compared to when I was a child. I'm trying to see the positive in my parenting but it's a struggle.

Thank you Frog, BB, Jones, Janedoe, Monte, Liese and AG for your replies. I'm very moved by them and I'm going to keep reading them over the next couple of days. I'm very tired and am probably not making sense.

I hope everyone in the US has a good Thanksgiving. I'm in Canada and I had forgotten that it was a holiday.

quote:

I had another conversation with my daughter about her school homework and how she felt and I learned more about what she is worried about. It was difficult and at times I was frustrated but I felt like we connected. I told her that I was always willing to talk with her. Then I went to my T tonight and discussed how different things are for my daughter right now compared to when I was a child. I'm trying to see the positive in my parenting but it's a struggle.

Thanks for sharing this incognito...this is truly something to celebrate! (I mean except for the part of how hard it is to see and accept the positive) But you are doing it, and that's the main thing. I personally find this inspiring. I'm not sure how to find ways to connect with my kids. To my shame, I tend to avoid connection, for reasons that I do not really understand. I feel horribly guilty about this almost automatic tendency. Which guilt certainly doesn't help matters...

So, I find what you are doing, connecting, talking keeping the lines of communication open...really inspiring. Thanks for sharing it.

BB

Incognito,

You have already received excellent replies on this thread and I just want to echo what was said. AG's post really spoke to me as the guilt over possibly hurting my children in some way is something that I struggle with as well. It's not a high standard as AG said, but I often joke that as long as my kids need less therapy than I do and are less screwed up than me then I guess I'm doing an ok job!

Both of my older kids have been in some therapy. My oldest is a 13 year old girl and she has struggled off and on with severe anxiety. Funny enough it peaked as she approached puberty and since she's through that for the most part she is very calm most of the time. She struggles with some pretty intense self-esteem issues and of course that isn't helped by the fact that middle school is it's own special kind of hell. One thing I wanted to say is that some of your daughters issues and angst might be age related. Middle school is a really hard time, especially for girls and I think that it isn't too uncommon for a girl of that age to express feelings similar to what you daughter has expressed. I'm not saying the feelings aren't very real or that she doesn't have an issue with depression, but I think girls at this age can be pretty intense and dramatic and say things that are intense and dramatic. I think you handled the situation really well and as long as you keep the lines of communication open it will be ok.

I know there was a long period of time where I thought I had to hide my healing and my pain from my children in order to shelter them. I felt like my stuff was going to contaminate them so I pulled back. I tried not to ever show any sort of negative emotion with them. However, in working with my T, she has encouraged me to show all of it with my kids (within reason of course) because it shows them how to be human and that humans have emotions and it's ok. It has been really hard to allow myself to be that vulnerable in front of my children, but I do believe it has helped them to feel more ok about expressing their own feelings.

My T told me it's ok to cry in front of my children, and to hug them when I cried!

Thank you so much for starting this thread Incognito

I also often feel like I am screwing up with my kids, working through stuff in therapy sometimes puts me in a dark place and they are so attuned that they subconsciously pick up on it (although sometimes it isn't their subconscious but their extremely grummet mama yelling at them ).

I am constantly amazed by their resilience and blessed by their love and forgiveness.

I think that you did a magnificent job of handling the situation Incognito, I hope that I can do the samefor my kids when they get to those difficult teenage years.

Opps that should read grumpy mama...how do you edit on here